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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Flintshire => Topic started by: shell2012 on Tuesday 07 August 12 03:22 BST (UK)
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I am just wondering after making good progress with the John Morris b 1796 & believed to be Anne (nee Williams from 1841 census record HO 107/1407/28 shows a Jane Williams staying with the family aged 80) Anne b 1791. I have been able to track this family quite easily with the help of friend roots poster (Nibbs) making an initial enquiry for me on here.
However I am unable to find any marriage cert despite looking for John and Anne. Their first child Maria Morris was born abt 1810. So I can only presume that they married a couple of years prior to this. When I search, nothing is showing. If anyone had better luck than I, please let me know.
Also if anyone is searching the Margaret (nee) Morris b. 1823-1899 & Samuel Jones b. 1833 family from Flintshire Wales moved to Stoke on Trent after marrying. Samuel from Colwyn Bay area and Margaret from Whitford, Wales I have their tree up now for any details.
Thanks
Michelle
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There will be no marriage certificate if the marriage took place before 1837.You may be able to find the Parish Register entry for the marriage if you are able to find where the marriage took place.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Ahh silly me, why do I always forget the history of research itself ! Ok, thanks for that tip. I will try and look at local parish records on ancestry. Same applies if anyone finds it before me, please let me know as I am not the best at finding stuff and sometimes over look things when they are staring me right in the face !
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Trying to narrow the years down a bit,John is shown in 1851 as born in Whitford in c 1781-HO107/2500/165/2.So any marriage is likely to have taken place 1800-1810.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I am just wondering after making good progress with the John Morris b 1796.
Their first child Maria Morris was born abt 1810.
Can you check on dates here, please? It is possible that the father was 14 when his child was born but unusual.
Added - just noticed William's find - b.c. 1780
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Noted that on the 1851, Ann is down as 69 so b.c. 1782 not 1791 :-\
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Nearest that I can find:
Marriage 10 March 1799, Nannerch -
John Morris of Mold and Anne Williams. both aged 21. By licence.
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There is also this one -
12 Dec 1808 Nannerch
John Morris and Ann Williams - both otp
So :-\
(nothing that I can see for Whitford!)
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Yes I am thinking that they lived and born Whitford but not coming up as Whitford. I am still perplexed by it...as I do not know enough about them apart from when after they married on the censuses and because its coming to the end of the censuses its a difficult time in research. But I will take what you have all found and look deeper and try and decide based on evidence what is most likely.
Thank you for trying, will get back to you if any of your leads strike as the lucky one and feedback.
Michelle
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There is also this one -
12 Dec 1808 Nannerch
John Morris and Ann Williams - both otp
So :-\
(nothing that I can see for Whitford!)
Hello Author Brevitas,
I cant seem to find the record marriage for the above on ancestry. Did you find them elsewhere. If so, can you let me know or Pm me if you need explain more i.e links etc.
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Ancestry is not very good at all for Flintshire - or many of the Welsh counties. I'd never look there for them. Family Search is now much better but normally you'd need to go to parish records - available from a number of sources, including the Clwyd FHS.
http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/publications.htm
Some are now also available from FindmyPast (pay site) https://www.findmypast.co.uk
(P.S. Some records can get missed)
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The marriage Brevitas found for1799 has the parents of John as Margaret and John Morris and Peter Wiliams for Anne and they both appear to have signed their names on the register. The 1808 just gives the names but no ages or parents, but that John also signed his name where Anne made her mark. These can be found on FindMyPast site.
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The marriage Brevitas found for1799 has the parents of John as Margaret and John Morris and Peter Wiliams for Anne and they both appear to have signed their names on the register. The 1808 just gives the names but no ages or parents, but that John also signed his name where Anne made her mark. These can be found on FindMyPast site.
Thank you for that Norma,
My novice research skills are starting to embarrassingly show through. Can I ask you what is a FindMyPast site Family,,,,no good in guessing? Sorry I am all new to this I have remained too safe for too long within the confines of ancestry and all this independent browsing has taken me out of my comfort bubble.
Regards,
Michelle
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FindMyPast doesn't cover Whitford after about 1778 ish. Clwyd FHS has extra booklets to 1912.
. I've been checking the Names from Clwyd site to cross check for Morris/Williams marriages in Whitford - it's doing my head in
Maybe someone else can check:
http://www.namesfromclwyd.org.uk/
PS - I've linked to FindMyPast on a previous meesage:
Ancestry is not very good at all for Flintshire - or many of the Welsh counties. I'd never look there for them. Family Search is now much better but normally you'd need to go to parish records - available from a number of sources, including the Clwyd FHS.
http://www.clwydfhs.org.uk/publications.htm
Some are now also available from FindmyPast (pay site) https://www.findmypast.co.uk
(P.S. Some records can get missed)
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Do you have the baptism of Maria Morris circa 1810 or is this date derived from census info?
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I'll check now
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Ok, I have a Maria and a Mary Morris I thought there were the two girls. I can only find Mary Morris on 1841 census born Henllan 1811 and then 1861 census born 1811 Whitford. I must have found the Maria Morris too on some other documentation to of added her and the other siblings. Its a while since I have worked on this part of the tree and its all pretty newly developed but confirmed as real by Margaret Morris and Samuel Jones marriage cert as parents as confirmed as correct then found the families from the names.
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Using the namesfromclwyd site I can only find baptisms for Morris at Whitford.It isn't easy you have to open the reference numbers in a new tab!I didn't even bother looking for a Williams!
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Using the namesfromclwyd site I can only find baptisms for Morris at Whitford.It isn't easy you have to open the reference numbers in a new tab!I didn't even bother looking for a Williams!
Regards
William Russell Jones.
I know - that's why it was doing my head in :-X
I don't have all the Whitford booklets - only the early ones from when I was looking for my Griffiths line
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I'll see if I can find any baptisms on ancestry but...I am not holding my breath....
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I do know for certain that Mary Morris never married and think I may of found her death record Oct 1883 Holywell ....
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I'm afraid you won't find any on Ancestry.You might drop lucky looking for Morris in someone's Tree.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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There are no early Morris entries born in Whitford among Trees on Genes Reunited.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Familysearch.org also gives another child to parents John and Anne Morris at Whitford a Thomas baptised 28/09/1817.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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I have looked through all the family tree's and baptisms for all siblings and cant find one baptism with same names parents or any other family trees.
I guess its going to be one of those many popular brick walls that frequent family research.
Thank you all very much for trying....
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Familysearch.org also gives another child to parents John and Anne Morris at Whitford a Thomas baptised 28/09/1817.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
Unless he was a twin of Robert as he was down on a census record as being born 1817 too. All the siblings are Maria b abt 1810 who became a widow lived til age 71. Mary b abt 1811, who never married and lived til 70, Elizabeth b abt 1813, who became a widow and lived til 68, John b abt 1814, married a Margaret, and had children. Robert b abt 1817, who lived til64, never married. Richard b. abt 1820 lived til 71 and married.
Regards,
Michelle
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I will have to go and rest my eyes been awake since 6pm last night. Will check any emails later.
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Can anyone find baptisms for JOHN MORRIS 1814, ROBERT MORRIS 1815, RICHARD MORRIS 1819 all Whitford, Wales ? Names, years of baptism correct and show up on searching.
I have only found these on one site but I am not a fully paid member of this one so wont let me look at record, (PM me for site). I am trying to find if there is a maiden name for their mother so I can then find the right marriage between John Jones b 1781 Whitford wales and Anne Someone 1782 whitford. I am assuming up to now it could be a Williams but the name of their Mother but still 100% certain it is this name I assume only taken from 1841 census it does not specify the relationship that Jane Williams had as the oldest name on the household, Jane could have been just a visitor that night? So maybe if I can access the information on the baptism records of these Sons it may give me something more concrete.
Greatly appreciated if anyone has 5 minutes.
Michelle
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hi Michelle
Robert Morris 1815 christening 3rd sep 1815 son of john and Anne
Richard 1819 christening 12Th DEC 1819
john christening 6Th march 1814
thomas christening 28Th Sept 1817
indexing project 5673-1
film number 104826
parents john and Anne Morris
Wendy
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Thanks very much Wendy :) Great it gives their actual date of Birth.
Shame it does not give the mothers maiden name, trying to find the marriage between John & Anne wonder if its a Williams Anne's maiden name Wendy? As the nearest marriage about 1808, 2 years before their first Child in Mary/Maria 1810-1811. The nearest marriage is Nannerch with these two names Anne Williams and John Morris. So that must be them at a guess as the other option given is too far from Whitford....
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hi Michelle
Robert Morris 1815 christening 3rd sep 1815 son of john and Anne
Richard 1819 christening 12Th DEC 1819
john christening 6Th march 1814
thomas christening 28Th Sept 1817
indexing project 5673-1
film number 104826
parents john and Anne Morris
Wendy
Ooo A Thomas, not seen him before on any of the census's..A new one !
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Michelle
it the christening date not date of birth and William Russell Jones put thomas down first
Wendy
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Familysearch.org also gives another child to parents John and Anne Morris at Whitford a Thomas baptised 28/09/1817.
Regards
William Russell Jones.
I did give the Thomas earlier!
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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You'll make my head swell Wendy.lol
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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Ok thanks for pointing that out Wendy abt the christening dates, I'll amend my records. Yes William so you did ! I must have missed that entry.....Thank you he is now added to the tree :)
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Right. Ive checked and double checked there is no other marriage for John Morris with Anne Williams on the marriage Banns in 1808 in Nannerch. If I ordered the certificate would it say the names of her parents and his parents at all or would it be exactly the same information as stated on the Banns ? Just wondering as I assume Anne Williams and John Morris only married in Nannerch for some reason (?) As on the 1841 census married Anne states that she was born in the county area of Whitford Garn ? So is it possible they just married outside of Whitford but both were from there, as the Jane Williams on the 1841 census states that she is from the county of Whitford Garn too. So I guess I have to take that as it is... Can anyone tell me what this mean by Jane Williams name under occupation ( F.S ) ? The mystery is it says on that marriage in Nannerch both of that parish but that is not assuming they live there? Maybe its the wrong marriage, I'll have to dig deeper. Could they have got married at Sion Lloc Methodist Church, I have no idea if and whether anyone was able to marry at this church as opposed to Whitford Parish, just thinking of all possibilities.
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The only thing on the certificate is John Morris and Ann William both of this parish married in this church by Banns on the 12th Day December 1808. The person marrying them was a John Foulkes. Witnesses where Edward Williams and William Jones. John Morris signed but Ann made her mark. Transcript on Findmypast.
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Having checked other questions relating to F S it appears that most people say it means Family Servant.
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Hm, thanks Norma for your response.
Just for information in case anyone finds they belong to the same tree. I think I have found Ann Williams baptism as 1776 I have her down from the census's information as older but all the census's are incorrect estimates for both John Morris & Ann William, which has thrown me of their tracks for a while. However, all census's insisted that Ann was born Whitford. I have therefore been able to find her parents Thomas & Elizabeth Williams and her siblings as Mary Williams baptised 1777 and Hugh Williams baptised in 1772 all Tre Mostyn of Whitford. Which I know John Morris ancestors are from Tre Mostyn, Whitford.
Been found through Ann's baptism and by the process of elimination of sibling names sharing the same, 'named parents' and being baptised in same town area of Tre Mostyn within 10yrs of each other, there maybe more if I widen my net upto 20yrs ! This is the only strategy I have found helps when the census's that you usually reply on disappear pre 1841.
Michelle :)
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Thanks for all your help.