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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: curtisd on Tuesday 07 August 12 17:23 BST (UK)
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Searching for ancestors of John William Barnes (Also known as William John Barnes). He was born 1926-04-11 Kensington, London. The birth certificate only lists his mother as Lily Barnes. Is there any way I could find his father?
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Hi
Little or no chance I'm afraid unless he showed his real fathers name on his marriage cert
If his marriage cert shows his father with the surname Barnes - then it's likely to be one he made up.
Many illegitimate children either made up a fathers name or used a male relatives name when they married so they appeared "respectable"
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On the marriage certificate it lists someone as his father but it has guardian in brackets.
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Do you know whether Lily married? I wonder if the guardians name is his stepfather?
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On the marriage certificate it appears to say Albert Charles Robert Alder (Guardian)
On the birth certificate it says mother as Lily Barnes, domestic cook, 20 Holland Road, Kensington.
I am not sure if she was married. I have found this which may be a marriage
1921
Barnes Lily E Robbins Kensington 1a 433
Robbins Sidney R Barnes Kensington 1a 433
The only Lily E I can find on the 1891 census is:
BARNES Lily Elizabeth Dau - F 2 Warwickshire - Birmingham Aston
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Possibility for Albert
Births December qtr 1889
Albert Charles Alder St. Saviour 1d 103
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Thank you.
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Is there any connection with Quebec Canada?
Jennifer
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Is there any connection with Quebec Canada?
Jennifer
Not that I know of.
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How would I find ancestors of Lily Barnes? Does anyone have access to the 1901 or 1911 Census for 20 Holland Road, Kensington?
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FindMyPast is the only website which allows an address search but its T & C's prohibit publication of that information
You would have to buy credits to search
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Are there any other ways to find out the parents of Lily Barnes? I cannot find a likely birth certificate on freebmd.
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To find a birth you would have to have an approx birthyear as well as the county in which she was born. Even then - if there were more than one possible entry you would need more info to narrow it down
If we assume she was 19 when she had her son - ber birthyear would be approx 1906/07
Freebmd has 17 birth entries for a Lily Barnes between 1906-1907
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That is where I got stuck, there is so many Lily Barnes. Thank you for your help.
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Albert C Alder arriving from Quebec 1952 & 1955
Lily E Barnes aged 42 (born 1909) arrived from Quebec 1951
Both travel on the Cunard line ships.
Jennifer
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Good find Jennifer - is it too much of a coincidence for there not to be a connection??
This is the only Lily E Barnes birth between 1908-1909
Births June qtr 1909 Lily Eveline Barnes Chorlton 8c 820
In 1952 Albert aged 62 was travelling with his wife Alice V aged 61 to 38 Channor/Chinnor Crescent Greenford Middlesex. His occupation was Secretary/Treasurer
In 1955 Albert is shown as b 22.8.1889 and Alice 10.3.1891 and address shown as 2 Westfield Way Ruislip Middlesex
This is the same Albert C Alder I posted birth details for in my earlier reply
Marriage on freebmd in 1915 Greenwich shows Alice as Alice V Roberts
3.4.1915 St Pauls Greenwich
Albert Charles Alder 25 commercial Clerk father William Giles Alder cab driver - deceased
Alice Violet Roberts 24 father William Charles Roberts cellar man
Witnesses William Giles Alder & Ruby Ethel Wheeler
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Thank you, it is interesting that there may be a connection to Quebec. I have ordered Births June qtr 1909 Lily Eveline Barnes Chorlton 8c 820
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Is it likely that this is the same Lily E Barnes? John William Barnes was born Kensington so it seems likely to me?
1921
Barnes Lily E Robbins Kensington 1a 433
Robbins Sidney R Barnes Kensington 1a 433
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Being realistic - there is absolutely no way of knowing if we even have the right Lily Barnes. All I was saying is that it is the only Lily E Barnes birth between 1908-1909
Unless additional info becomes available - you may never find the right Lily Barnes
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Ok thank you.
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Good find Jennifer - is it too much of a coincidence for there not to be a connection??
This is the only Lily E Barnes birth between 1908-1909
Births June qtr 1909 Lily Eveline Barnes Chorlton 8c 820
I ordered the birth certificate and it listed her parents as Ernest Garfield Barnes and Lily Eveline Southam. According to 1911 census Ernest Garfield Barnes and Lily Eveline Southam had 4 children at that time but only two were still living, they being Ernest born c1907 in Audenshaw and William born 1911 Audenshaw. Lily Barnes (Born 1909) died in 1910 so cannot be the correct one.
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Which Lily was dead by 1910?
Jennifer
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Lily Barnes born 1909, died 1910.
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Why could she have not been one of the two children who had died?
Jennifer
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I meant she cannot be the mother of John William Barnes. She is one of the two children that died.
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Good find Jennifer - is it too much of a coincidence for there not to be a connection??
This is the only Lily E Barnes birth between 1908-1909
Births June qtr 1909 Lily Eveline Barnes Chorlton 8c 820
As Births June qtr 1909 Lily Eveline Barnes Chorlton 8c 820 died in 1910.
Is it likely that this is the correct Lily E Barnes? It is around the right area.
Births Jun 1907 Lily Emily Barnes Islington 1b 191
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An update, I forgot to previously mention that John William Barnes (William John Barnes) was born at 28 Marloes Road, Kensington.
Would there be any records for 28 Marloes Road? It appears to have been Kensington Infirmary and Workhouse. I have not found anything else online. Would there be any baptism records which may list his father?
Attached is the birth certificate: http://en.geneanet.org/archives/actes/actesenligne/1014180
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Albert C Alder arriving from Quebec 1952 & 1955
Lily E Barnes aged 42 (born 1909) arrived from Quebec 1951
Both travel on the Cunard line ships.
Jennifer
Which website did you find this information? I searched but could not find anything.
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An update, I forgot to previously mention that John William Barnes (William John Barnes) was born at 28 Marloes Road, Kensington.
Would there be any records for 28 Marloes Road? It appears to have been Kensington Infirmary and Workhouse. I have not found anything else online. Would there be any baptism records which may list his father?
Attached is the birth certificate: http://en.geneanet.org/archives/actes/actesenligne/1014180
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I searched on Ancestry.co.uk and found two entries for John William Barnes (Both with the same date of death). I already had the one for April 1926 and I ordered the one I found for October 1926.
It arrived today and it lists mother as Lily Barnes of late Saunders (Formerly Smith). It lists the father as John William Barnes who is a Builders labourer.
I found the following marriages:
Marriages Mar 1926 (>99%)
Barnes John W Saunders Lambeth 1d 392
Saunders Lily Barnes Lambeth 1d 392
Marriages Jun 1917 (>99%)
Smith Lily Saunders Southwark 1d 49
Saunders Frederick Smith Southwark 1d 49
Is it likely that I may of found the correct people? What are the chances of having the same name of the child and mother and only being a mile away? Is it possible they registered the birth again after they were married?
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Marriage details for 1917 marriage
Walworth All Saints , Parish All Hallows Southwark 8 April 1917 after Banns
Frederick Saunders 33 bachelor Linoleum Maker, 9 Winchester Cottages. Father:William John Saunders~labourer Deceased.
Lily Smith 23 spinster, 9 Winchester Cottages. Father: William Smith~Grocers manager
Both signed register
Witnesses: Ivy Elizabeth Holt and William? ????
claire
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Thank you for your reply. I have already ordered both marriage certificates.
Do you think I have the correct parents for John William Barnes?
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I believe I have found Lily Smith on the 1911 Census. William Smith is head of the household and he is a Grocers Assistant. She also has a sister called Ivy, which may be the witness on the marriage.
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An Ivy E Smith married a Thomas Holt 1914 Southwark.
Jennifer
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Lily Smith and William Francis Rowland were the witnesses.
Jennifer
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Marriages Mar 1913 (>99%)
Rowland William F Smith Southwark 1d 119
Smith Florence E E Rowland Southwark 1d 119
William Francis Rowland appears to be her brother in law.
This helps toward confirming that I have the correct census information as Florence and Ivy are both siblings.
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1901:
William Smith 35
Emily F Smith 34
Florence Smith 13
George W Smith 12
Rosie Smith 9
Lily Smith 6
Ivy Smith 5
Horace Smith 2
Albert Smith 1
1911:
William Smith 45
Emily Smith 44
Florence Smith 23
Lily Smith 16
Ivy Smith 15
Horace Smith 12
Alber Smith 10
Alice Smith 9
Gladys Smith 6
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On the 1911 Census it only says London for birth place. However it says Bethnal Green on the 1901 Census. There are only two births between 1893-1895 so I will order both.
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I contacted the London Metropolitan Archives as I was unable to go locally. They offer a paid search service. It took them 4 weeks to carry out research.
They recently contacted me and gave me copies of the birth records and told me that Lily E Barnes was 17 when she gave birth. Her name was listed as Lily and Lilian. They also found a birth certificate for Lilian E Barnes which I ordered.
They also found out that she was Roman Catholic so I have contacted the local Catholic church archives and they said will search for a baptism of John William Barnes and let me know if they find anything.eve
However this does mean that Lily Smith and John William Barnes may not be the parents of the John William Barnes I was searching for. It looks like Lilian Emma Barnes is the mother and not Lily Smith due to the records saying the mother of John William Barnes (Born March) was born 1909. This is also confirmed by the shipping passenger list which has Lily E Barnes and Albert Charles Alder.
What are the chances of two John William Barnes being born within 5 miles of each other in the same year and both having a mother called Lily?
Curtis.
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Forgot to update the thread.
The birth certificate for Lillian E Barnes arrived. It listed her name as Lillian Emma Barnes and date of birth as 1909-02-04. Parents are Arthur Earnest Barnes and Emma Mallinder. I have found further back on Ancestry, I may order certificates to verify.
I have found a few marriages which could of been the correct people but they all had a Lily/Lilian with the wrong date of birth and parents.
However recently I found a marriage of Emily Barnes and Edward William J Beveredge. I ordered it as she could of been listed under her middle name Emma/Emily and Edwards middle names are the same as John William/William John Barnes. I know it may not be the correct people but hopefully it is!
Regards,
Curtis
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The marriage certificate arrived and it does not have the same parents or age and the names are different too.
Any advice on what I should do next? I am still waiting for Mile End Parish Church to reply whether they have a baptism (Have already had reply from all churches in Kensington area and they could not find anything, one of them only had records up to 1925 and I need 1926)
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The marriage certificate arrived and it does not have the same parents or age and the names are different too.
Any advice on what I should do next? I am still waiting for Mile End Parish Church to reply whether they have a baptism (Have already had reply from all churches in Kensington area and they could not find anything, one of them only had records up to 1925 and I need 1926)
I am now researching my ancestry again. Can anyone advise of any suggestions? Thank you. I lost access to my old account.
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Hi Curtis
I noticed on the birth certificate that Lily Barnes was listed as a domestic cook and resident at 20 NORLAND ROAD
In the Electoral Registers for 1926 at 20 Norland Road we have
HO: Emily Barnes
O: George Barnes
O: Percival Henry Barnes
Something else to work with perhaps
Claire
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Further registers reveal the same three still resident there for another few years, by 1935 we have these people, possibly more family
Arthur Edmond BARNES
Edward Charles
Emily Sarah Barnes
Percival Henry Barnes
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Right I think this is the family you may be seeking
George BARNES married Emily Sarah GARLAND 08 Dec 1895 Islington
They had these children
George Barnes 1896
Percival Henry 1898
Florence Emily M 1900
William 1903
Edward 1904
Sophia Robina 1906
LILLIE 1909 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Arthur 1911
Claire
EDIT: Searching the new GRO index which can be used with mothers maiden surname (Garland) it would seem this is Lillie's full name
Lillian Sybil Violet BARNES born June Qtr. 1909
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On my tree.
Siblings of Lilian Emma Barnes:
M Arthur Edward Barnes 1903-
M Stanley Francis Barnes 1905-1925
M Albert Henry Barnes 1913-1966
Siblings of Lilian Emma Barnes father:
Siblings
M Edward William Barnes ca 1876-
F Emily A Barnes ca 1877-
M Alfred John Barnes ca 1878-
M Walter Charles Barnes ca 1880-
F Lilian W Barnes ca 1881-
F Rose Edith Barnes ca 1882-
M Stanley A Barnes ca 1885-
F Grace Beatrice Barnes ca 1886-
M Sidney Percival Barnes ca 1887-
F Ethel May Barnes ca 1889-
M Harold Vincent Barnes ca 1892-
On the census attached on my tree I have this data.
See household members
Household Relation to head; Name; Age
Head; Edward J Barnes; 41
Wife; Emily E Barnes; 42
Son; Edward W Barnes; 15
Daughter; Emily A Barnes; 14
Son; Alfred J Barnes; 13
Son; Walter C Barnes; 11
Daughter; Lilian W Barnes; 10
Daughter; Rose E Barnes; 9
Son; Arthur E Barnes;
I've actually found records for a Lilian E Barnes who went to New York twice. Her father Arthur was listed as Account Book Binder, State Troopers Assistant, Scholar in various Census.
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Right I think this is the family you may be seeking
George BARNES married Emily Sarah GARLAND 08 Dec 1895 Islington
They had these children
George Barnes 1896
Percival Henry 1898
Florence Emily M 1900
William 1903
Edward 1904
Sophia Robina 1906
LILLIE 1909 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Arthur 1911
Claire
EDIT: Searching the new GRO index which can be used with mothers maiden surname (Garland) it would seem this is Lillie's full name
Lillian Sybil Violet BARNES born June Qtr. 1909
Thank you. Does this mean I have been researching the wrong Lillian Barnes?
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Hi Curtis,
I have checked the births of Arthur Edmund & Percival Henry who were both resident at 20 Norland Road - (both with mothers maiden surname Garland ) - which is where Lilly(Lillie) was living from the birth certificate, the family can be found in the census too.
I would say this is the family you may be looking for, unless there was another Lily at the same address - cousin or something.
Claire
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Lilian S V BARNES married an Archibald H HUNT in Kensington the year aafter John William was born in 1927
Claire
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Hi Claire,
Thank you. I appreciate your help. I will revise my tree. I'll see what I can find further.
Kind regards,
Curtis
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Lilian S V BARNES married an Archibald H HUNT in Kensington the year aafter John William was born in 1927
Claire
Interesting find. Thank you.
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Lillian S V Hunt died Dec. Qtr. 1973 Hemel Hempstead, Herts.
DOB: 18 Feb. 1909
Claire
EDIT: I don't think the marriage lasted I can see Lillian S V Hunt alone in 1946 onwards at 107 Princes Avenue Wembley and a son Leonard A G Hunt, who passed away in the 1990's.
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Lilian S V BARNES married an Archibald H HUNT in Kensington the year aafter John William was born in 1927
Claire
Is this likely to be his birth certificate? Births Mar 1909 (>99%)
Hunt Archibald Henry E Kensington 1a 121
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Yes it is ;D
I have found the marriage details for the couple I will add them :)
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I think I have found George Barnes and family on the 1911 Census.
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St James Norland, Kensington 17th April 1927
Archibald Henry Edward Hunt aged 18 bachelor of 14 NORLAND Road a Grocers Assistant: Father: Archibald Ormand Hunt - Grocer
Lillian Sybil Violet Barnes aged 18 spinster of 20 NORLAND ROAD, no occupation. Father: George Barnes - Motor Driver
Both signed register
Witnesses: W G Barnes & ? H Barnes
Claire
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This is really useful. Thank you very much.
Would you say it is likely that John William Barnes did not have father listed merely because they were not yet married? Because they couldn't actually get married until they were 18?
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It's very difficult to say really.
All I can suggest is looking for any living descendants of Lillian - she had one son that I can see, possibly other children. They may know more, it might be possible to find them via Anc** - if someone has researched the family.
Did she raise John William or was he raised by the man named as his guardian ?
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Lillian S V Hunt died Dec. Qtr. 1973 Hemel Hempstead, Herts.
DOB: 18 Feb. 1909
Claire
EDIT: I don't think the marriage lasted I can see Lillian S V Hunt alone in 1946 onwards at 107 Princes Avenue Wembley and a son Leonard A G Hunt, who passed away in the 1990's.
Just seen your edit. If this is all correct then is could this be the reason John William Barnes listed a guardian on his marriage certificate?
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It's very difficult to say really.
All I can suggest is looking for any living descendants of Lillian - she had one son that I can see, possibly other children. They may know more, it might be possible to find them via Anc** - if someone has researched the family.
Did she raise John William or was he raised by the man named as his guardian ?
I registered today on Anc**. I'm on other websites too which do 'Matching' so might find something.
It is a great start to be more confident I've got the correct Lillian though! Thank you.
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Your welcome - there are four trees (private) on Anc* researching Archibald Henry Hunt so there is a start for you :)
claire
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George BARNES married Emily Sarah GARLAND 08 Dec 1895 Islington
Does your source list parents? I can't find it. I can order PDF off the GRO if needed?
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Here you go
St Mary Islington 8 Dec 1895
George Barnes 25 bachelor Greengrocer of 46 Dame Street. Father: George Barnes - Greengrocer
Emily Sarah Garland 23 spinster, no occupation and of same address. Father: Richard Garland - Stonemason
Both signed register
Witnesses : ? Messifield and Walter Baker
Claire
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Thank you.
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Did she raise John William or was he raised by the man named as his guardian ?
He was an evacuee from London during WW2. That is what I have been told.
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Here you go
St Mary Islington 8 Dec 1895
George Barnes 25 bachelor Greengrocer of 46 Dame Street. Father: George Barnes - Greengrocer
Emily Sarah Garland 23 spinster, no occupation and of same address. Father: Richard Garland - Stonemason
Both signed register
Witnesses : ? Messifield and Walter Baker
Claire
George Barnes was born April 4th 1870 Kensington. Parents are George Barnes and Martha Emma Elizabeth Harrison.
George Barnes was born September 5th 1848 Middlesex. Married October 10th 1874 Tilehurst Reading Berkshire. Parents are Robert Barnes and Jane (Wright? Father is John Wright?) There is one conflicting source with a different name).
Robert Barnes was listed as born at various years. 1822 being most likely? Father George Barnes (again, seems a pattern)
Martha Elizabeth Harrison was born June 25th 1846 Walworth Surrey. Died Feb 13th 1908 Fulham. Married October 10th 1874 Tilehurst Reading Berkshire. Parents are Joseph Harrison and Elizabeth Main. I can't find a marriage of parents yet to confirm but I found someone who had father of Joseph Harrison as George Harrison Elizabeth Main born 1821 but father listed as Joseph Mayer.
Any feedback on if above is looking correct before I proceed? I'm happy to order GRO PDFs.
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Mum Elizabeth died not long after Martha's baptism when they were living on New Street.
Elizabeth Harrison of Hill Street was buried 4 October 1846 aged 32.
The marriage of Joseph Harrison is to Elizabeth Todd or Tadd. She was a widow, father Joseph Mayer a sawyer. Took place at Emmanuel, Camberwell on 7th September 1845.
After Elizabeth died Joseph Harrison went on to marry Charlotte Cripps at St Mary Newington on 18 June 1848 - I have checked Joseph's signature in both registers - they are the same :)
Claire
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Elizabeth Mayer married Henry Frederick Tadd in 1842 - father Joseph Mayer deceased.
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Thank you.
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I'm not sure about that marriage in Berkshire 1874 - it's after the birth of George in 1870, not unusual but there is this one (not online that I can see), from FreeBMD
September Qtr. 1868 Kensington Vol: 1a page 128
BARNES George <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Harris Louisa
HARRISON Martha Elizabeth <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Honour James
claire
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Thank you. I had his father marriage as Kensington too. Makes sense that they would stay in the area but the census are confusing.
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No responses from the private member trees yet.
Archibald Henry Edward Hunt baptised 7th March 1909 at St Andrew and St Philip, Kensal Green, Kensington and Chelsea, England
Father was Archibald Aneande Hunt and mother Evelyn Rosina Hunt
Is this the correct one from online archives? I can order the birth certificate if that helps?
Edit: I found what appears to be siblings, they had two middle names each and they weren't always used on the different sources. I'll see if I get any replies to my messages on Anc*****
Edit: I have found a bit more. I'll compare when I get replies.
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Hi
Looks like the parents were not married until 1913
24th August 1913 St Pauls Church Hammersmith
Archibald Ormond Hunt aged 26 bachelor a carman of 23 Angel Road, Hammersmith. Father: Thomas William Hunt - confectioner
Evelyn Rosina Louisa Blanche Jordan aged 27 a spinster of the same address. Father: John Jordan - clerk
Witnesses: William Thomas Healy & William Kelly
claire
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Thank you. Matches up to the data I found.
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I'll start ordering missing certificates and update this thread when they arrive.
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Didn't order certificates yet.
Based on the existing data on other trees, they all stop at father of Robert Barnes being George Barnes born around 1796 Poole, Dorset.
Could this be George Barnes the father? More likely as the name is Robert?
Name: George Barnes
Event Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 8 Apr 1798
Baptism Place: Poole, Dorset, England
Father: Robert Barnes
Mother: Ann Barnes
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Just came across your post. My name is Valerie (Hunt) and I am a granddaughter of Lillian Sybil Violet Barnes. I don't have a lot of information - she was my dad's mum - Donald Robert Hunt (Nov 14, 1936-Apr 27, 2012). My cousins on Dad's side are starting to look into our ancestry, so we googled Archibald Henry Edward Hunt, and it brought us to this post.
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Just came across your post. My name is Valerie (Hunt) and I am a granddaughter of Lillian Sybil Violet Barnes. I don't have a lot of information - she was my dad's mum - Donald Robert Hunt (Nov 14, 1936-Apr 27, 2012). My cousins on Dad's side are starting to look into our ancestry, so we googled Archibald Henry Edward Hunt, and it brought us to this post.
Thank you for contacting me. I will message you.