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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => England => Hampshire & IOW Lookup Requests => Topic started by: lilirose03 on Wednesday 08 August 12 12:23 BST (UK)
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Please could I request 1891 census lookup for George Gurman born abt 1881 South Stoneham/Botley Hampshire, father's name on wedding cert is also George Gurman, labourer. Many thanks.
I've also been looking on 1881 census with no luck for George Gurman (the father, as son possibly not born yet)
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Hi
1891 Piece: 939 Folio: 39 Page: 20
Horton Heath, Bishopstoke, Stroud Wood Fair Oak Horton Heath
Selina Gurman Head Widow 48 b South Stoneham, Hampshire
William Gurman son 16 Agricultural Labourer b South Stoneham, Hampshire
Alfred Gurman Son 13 b Agricultural Labourer b South Stoneham, Hampshire
George Gurman Son 10 Scholar b South Stoneham, Hampshire
Fred Gurman Son 3 b South Stoneham, Hampshire
? Pierce Boarder 6 Scholar b South Stoneham, Hampshire
George French Boarder Single 49 Sawyer b Botley, Hampshire
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oh my gosh! Thank you for that groom. How very interesting, so George Snr is deceased but the youngest son is only 3 years old and a quick look at freebmd shows no George Gurman death listed anywhere near that timeframe.... ho-hum!
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1881 is interesting, George's father may have died before he was born, but there is a younger son, Fred in 1891.
Piece: 1218 Folio: 91 Page: 21
Long Common, South Stoneham
Selina Gurman Widow Head 33 Laundress b South Stoneham, Hampshire
Elizabeth Gurman daughter 14 Domestic Servant b South Stoneham, Hampshire
Frances Gurman Daughter 10 Scholar b South Stoneham, Hampshire
William Gurman Son 6 Scholar b South Stoneham, Hampshire
Alfred Gurman Son 3 Scholar b South Stoneham, Hampshire
George French Lodger 41 Sawyer b Botley, Hampshire
Thomas French Lodger 34 Sawyer b Botley, Hampshire
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I just had another look on free bmd and there's no marriage for a George Gurman and Selina, but there is a Selina marrying a Noah Gurman in South Stoneham in 1866
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There are a couple of deaths for a George Gurman in South Stoneham - one in 1862 and one in 1910 ( a 56 year old) None that I can see for a Noah.
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it's very strange, she's claiming to be a widow in 1881 but continuing to have children... George is a very lively ghost!
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Even stranger 1871 Piece: 1197 Folio: 79 Page: 21
Long Common Beer Shop Delivered In Botley Parish, South Stoneham
Joseph King Head widower 76 Beer retailer and hoop maker b Hampshire
Joseph King Son unmarried 41 Farm labourer b Hampshire
Selina Gurman Daughter-In-Law married 25 House keeper b Hampshire
Mary Elizabeth Gurman Daughter 4 b Hampshire
Francis Celina Gurman Daughter 5 mths b Hampshire
I wonder if daughter in law is really step daughter, I've seen that before, but where is her husband?
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In 1871 there is a George Gurman, a groom, born 1852 Botley working as a servant at Bartley Beechwood House, Eling, New Forest Hampshire. However this would make him too young to be Mary's father.
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wow, this is totally bizarre - could Noah have been a sailor and away a lot? (George jnr was a sailor). But why father's name George on the marriage cert? I'm going to have to order the birth cert and see what that says next, but it crossed my mind that the lodger is called George, could he be the father?
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and I think I've seen that George on the census with a wife and children, don't think it could be him, unless he leading a double life?
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1861 RG 9; Piece: 682; Folio: 9; Page: 11
Joseph King head widower 66 hoop maker b Botley
Joseph King son unmarried 32 wood cutter b South Stoneham
Selener King grandaughter 12 b South Stoneham
That fits with the Selina King who married Noah Gurman, might be worth getting that certificate
Jan
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birth entry on freebmd for Selina King Dec 1848 South Stoneham
and it is Selina King marrying Noah Gurman, but no other ref to a Noah Gurman anywhere I can find so far
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I cant see him at all either, apart from the marriage, very odd.
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I think all I can do now is order the marriage and birth certificates and see if they throw any light on things. I'll have to pop back to this thread and let you know! Thank you ever so much for all your help groom :)
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From Family Search - so he did exist ;D
Noah Gurman bapt 10 Jan 1847 BOTLEY, HAMPSHIRE son of Robert & Sarah Gurman
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Also their marriage
Noah Gurman age 19 m Selina King age 18 13 Oct 1866 Westend By Southampton, Hampshire,
Noah's father: Robert Gurman
Sarah's father Henry King
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1871 census - he was a sailor ;D A mate aboard The Comet on the Medway
Noah Gurman age: 23 b Botley, Hampshire
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There is this birth
Births Jun 1846
Gurman Harry S. Stoneham 7 231
I wonder if he was registered in one name but baptised in another?
Added: Perhaps not as Harry appears in later censuses.
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He is also in the 1861 census
Robert Gurman head marr 49 ag lab b Botley
Sarah Gurman wife 48? b Botley
Noah Gurman son 14 ag lab b Botley
Robert Gurman son 12 ag lab b Botley
Esther Gurman son? 10 scholar b Botley
Mary A Gurman daur 6 scholar b Botley
All at 49 Southampton Road
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And next door at No 50
Mary a Gurman head widow 49 charwoman b Southampton
Thomas? Gurman son unm 24 ag lab b South Stoneham
Henry Gurman brother in law unm 38 formerly ag lab b Botley
Steve
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A tree on Ancestry has Noah's death as 1888. They give his mother as Sarah Sheppard. No sources given.
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gosh, thank you both so much for your help, it would've taken me forever to track all that info down! If Noah did die in 1888 then he (hopefully) is the father of all the children, but why is she saying she's a widow in 1881?
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could this be them in 1851? wrongly under German. No Noah but Nathaneal?
HO107; 1670; 282; P14
South Stoneham Hampshire
Robert German 38 head mar Ag Lab
Sarah German 39 wife mar
Charles German 11 son scholar
Elisha German 9 dau do
Miraham German 7 dau do
Nathaneal German 4 son do
Robert German 2 son
Henry German 28 lodger
all born Botley
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Botley parish records (pre 1837) are online
http://michaelcooper.org.uk/BOT/bot.htm
There are a few GURMANS :D
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Family Search has the baptisms of all Robert and Sarah's children. https://familysearch.org/
There were a lot of Gurman families in South Stoneham and Botley - probably all related.
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I found Selina Gurman's death on freebmd, she died age 46 in Dec qtr 1892.
Having thought about this overnight I'm wondering if this could be a possible scenario:
she and Noah marry young, they have a couple of children and he goes off to sea leaving her with her family. For whatever reason Noah doesn't come back. She sets up home with George French the younger children being his and perhaps lists him as George Gurman, father, labourer, on the birth certificates?
I've ordered George's birth certificate and will let you know when it arrives what it says!
It's the only reason I can think that would explain why she was listed as a widow in 1881 and 1891, had George French boarding with her all those years and why George jnr has listed George Gurman, labourer as his father on his marriage cert.
Do you think this is a reasonable scenario or have I let my imagination run riot?
I would like to find out what did happen to Noah to see if that sheds any light on things, but haven't a clue where to start with that if he died at sea?
Also, I wonder what happened to the younger children after Selina died? Maybe George French looked after them or they went to the King family?
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ok, think this adds some weight to my theory about George French being the father:
from IGI:
Alfred John French Gurman bapt Botley, Hampshire
son of Selina Gurman
and I found the French family on the 1861 census and George has an older brother called Alfred
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That scenario is possible, in which case it looks as if the 3 youngest children weren't Noahs. However, it could just be that she gave him the name French as George was a good friend of the family.
Have we found George's baptism, does he also have the name French?
It is a pity that we cant find Noah's death, that tree on Ancestry had no sources so may just have assumed that is when he died. It does seem odd that Selina described herself as a widow much earlier than he was supposed to have died. I wonder if he was missing at sea but couldn't be officially declared dead as there was no body?
I'll have another look around later to see if I can find any more. Please let me know what the birth certificate says.
Jan
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I haven't found a baptism for George or any of the other children.
I immediately thought that adding French as part of Alfred's name was a big clue because I have come across that before on another family tree - and the woman concerned on that tree had been told her real fathers name, and his surname had been given to her as a middle name.
Also the father's name on Alfred's christening has been left blank, no mention of Noah.
And George jnr listing George Gurman labourer on his marriage cert as his father rather than Noah Gurman sailor.
And Selina claiming to be a widow in 1881 and 1891.
If it was only one or two of those reasons listed above I'd have doubts, but all of those together makes me feel it's quite likely George French was the father.
It's going to feel like a long wait for that birth cert to arrive!
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and just because you might find it interesting, there's a similar story about George Gurman!
George Gurman married Elizabeth Crockett in 1906 in Portsmouth, they had a son Cyril in 1909. George was a sailor. I have been told that George fought in WWI and Elizabeth rec'd notification that he had been killed (whether it was missing presumed dead I don't know) and many years later re-married (1940). She then r'ced news that George was still alive (who this was from and if it was official I don't know) but she didn't feel she wanted to pursue that, so the family never knew for sure if George really had survived the war or not...
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Have you tried doing a Google search for Noah Gurman? There are several people looking for him and none seem to have found him after 1871 or his death.
What a strange, but interesting family they are.
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I have done a google search on Noah but I just seem to be going round in circles with him, nothing concrete comes up.
I just hope my new Gurman husband doesn't suddenly decide to go to sea!!!!
It was actually my mother-in-law asked me to try and do a little digging on the Gurman family history as she knows I researched my own tree some years ago, I wasn't expecting to find all this!
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I cant find Fred Gurman after 1891, he just seems to disappear, there are no deaths in that name. I wonder if he was taken in by another family after his mother's death and took their name. I cant find George French either in 1901, but there is a possible sighting in 1911 when he is on his own.
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Hi
To set a new thought process going . . . . .
I think that George Gurman/German and George French could be one and the same. (A play on name)
I think he is a "convict/absconder/criminalontherun" w.h.y.
There is at least one court case (1877 - 7 years)
. . . . .
Ray
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ooh, interesting... what's your idea on this Ray?
and how would Noah fit in if George French is actually George Gurman?
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Going with that thought..there is a death for a Noah French in Q4 1911in Berkhampstead age 65 born abt 1846 ???
Steve
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but bear in mind I have found George French age 21 living with his family on the 1861 census, and there is a birth record for George French Dec qtr 1840 S. Stoneham
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cancel that death it's not him ::)
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Not sure about Ray's theory as we have both George French and Noah Gurman appearing in the 1851 and 1861 censuses in Botley.
Going back to the first post where you say you have George Gurman's marriage certificate and that he states his father is George Gurman a labourer, perhaps he was asked for his father's name and he said George and the vicar just assumed it was Gurman. He may also have given it as Gurman to cover up the fact that he was illegitimate.
It is strange that Selina and George French never married, if he was the younger children's father, as George was single, unless Noah just disappeared and although she called herself a widow she wasn't sure if Noah had died.
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I'm assuming that if Noah went missing at sea and there was no body then there wouldn't have been a death certificate issued, I think someone has to be missing for a set number of years before they can be officially declared dead. And back in those days would that have been done automatically or only if the family requested it? That could explain the lack of any sign of him after 1871 and why Selina couldn't marry George French.
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I think Noah disappeared between 1871 and 1881 and that is why she is calling herself a widow in 1881. It would be interesting to know who was the father of William, born 1875 as that might narrow down when Noah went missing.
William appears to have been registered as William GEORGE Gurman. ;)
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Hi
(Sorry, had to disappear after my post) ???
The thing is that it is just an idea.
There are Gurman/German in the prison/court records about that time.
The other question that I could not get out of my mind is
"Why is she living =on her own= with a(nother) man"
She either knows "he" is not coming back or "he" IS back ?
If "He" has been elsewhere after crime(s) elsewhere then the neighbours may not have known he was a criminal, just working away at times.
The census may be the only time he thought he needed to call himself a different name.
Ramble, ramble
Ray
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Interesting idea Ray, but how would you explain Noah? To my mind it doesn't quite fit with the facts we have.
Selina would be fairly sure Noah's not coming back if he's been declared missing presumed dead while at sea. The other thought I had was maybe he met another woman overseas and wrote to Selina telling her wouldn't be coming back? Made a new life for himself abroad? Guess that would depend on the type of boat/ship he was on though, he may not have been travelling that far...
I like your thinking about George just saying 'George' as his fathers name at the wedding Jan, and the registrar assuming it was Gurman, that makes sense to me. And William George is a good find too, I think it's looking very likely the boys are all George French's children and the two girls were Noahs before he disappeared. And George jnr on freebmd is listed as George Richard Gurman - and on the census guess what George French's dad's name is? yep, Richard...
The other thing that's intriguing me about Noah is why I can't find a birth record for him. His christening is on IGI, but I've tried every variation of Gurman I can think of on freebmd to no avail. I've tried just entering Noah with no surname to see if I could get him that way, but still nothing. I even went through several years worth of all the South Stoneham birth records to see if anything leaped out as me as possibly being him, and nothing...
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Hi
Thought this worth a mention although apologies if you have it already but there a couple of articles featuring a Selina Gurman in the Hampshire Advertiser on the British Newspaper Archive website not sure whether she is yours but maybe worth a look?
Regards
Z :)
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Hi z, thanks for that I imagine it must be her, but unfortunately I have no access to paid sites.
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Hi
Sorry don't have a sub but maybe someone else can help although if curiousity gets the better of you then maybe a purchase of a couple of days could be justified - somehow ;D
All the best
Z :)
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Hi z,
I noticed on the site it said 15 free credits when you regisiter, wasn't sure if it would give them without purchasing a package but thought it was worth a try and it worked! I've read both the articles and it is her, in both instances having a falling out with George French's brother! Thank you so much :)
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So there is obviously a strong connection between the Gurmans and the French family. I'm inclined to go with your theory Lilirose, that the 3 youngest were George's children and that although Selina was pretty sure there was no chance of Noah returning, she couldn't remarry as there was no official proof.
As to not being able to find Noah's birth, it isn't that unusual at that period of time. Official registration hadn't long been introduced and quite a few people thought that having a child baptised and entered on the parish registers was the same thing. It wasn't until 1874 when the Births and Deaths Registration Act came into force which made it the responsibility of parents or the occupier of a house where a baby was born to register the birth within 42 days or they became liable to a £2 fine, which was a considerable amount of money at that time in the 19th century and roughly the equivalent of £100 today. http://www.1837.com/civil-registration/
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The articles are very interesting now I've sat and read through them properly, in both cases Selina was threatened by Walter Thomas/Thomas Walter French because she had thrown him out of the house. And it actually says in the one dated 22 July 1882 'the complainant (Selina) was a widow, living with the defendant's brother...'
that one in particular is well worth a read as it's quite entertaining!
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That must have been the Thomas who was living with them in 1881. Perhaps he was spoiling the cosy set up she had with George. ;D ;D ;D ;D Isn't it great the things you discover about our ancestors?
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I've never found anything this juicy on my own tree, I'm having great fun with these Gurmans!
Not too sure how I'm going to explain all this to my new parents-in-law though... I asked hubby if he'd told them about any of my findings yet and he said, laughing, 'oh no, I'm leaving it for you to tell them'...
In the 1882 article it says Thomas was accused of threating to beat Selina's brains out and he said he 'would rather put brains in than beat any out' - he claimed Selina chucked him out through spite because he told about her having a canary. Makes an amusing read and sounds like a bit of a storm in a teacup.
But in the 1885 article things sound to have become really nasty between them, she accuses him of threatening to 'do for her' in her front room with a large piece of wood.
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That will be interesting breaking that news to your new parents in law, as that means their name is not really Gurman but French.
I had a similar thing when I did my brother in law's tree. I traced his great grandfather Alfred's birth back to Wales and then discovered that he had been born illegitimate. His mother lived with her mother, who then re-married. Alfred was baptised under his mother's name and used that as a child in 1881. By 1891 he was using his step grandfather's surname and that is the name my brother in law has. So he has a name that really has no connection to his ancestors. He thought it was a laugh.
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It can be awkward and a bit of a worry when you do a tree for someone else and find something unexpected like this, although I do always stress the point you never know what skeletons might come rattling out of the cupboard. I might remind them of that before telling them!
I wonder if there are records somewhere regarding the Comet? If the whole ship/boat went down? Or if it was just Noah, swept overboard or something? If he was still on the Comet at the time he vanished...
Noah was def on board in 1871 and if William George is George French's son as we suspect, then that only leaves a four year window as William was born Jun qtr 1875 so she probably fell pregnant late summer/early autumn 1874
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I've found ref (here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant_class_gunboat) for an ant-class gunboat called Comet built in Portsmouth 1870, it was sold in 1908 and broken up. I wonder if this is Noah's Comet?
There's a picture of it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HMS_comet.jpg
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George Gurman's birth certificate has just arrived.
where & when born: ninth June 1881 Long Common, South Stoneham
name: George Richard
sex: boy
name & surname of father: George Gurman
name, surname & maiden surname of mother: Selina Gurman formerly King
occupation of father: sawyer
informant: S. Gurman, mother, Long Common South Stoneham
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So, it looks as if she may have told a little lie and that George Gurman was really George French as that fits with his occupation and we know that Noah was a sailor.
I cant see how you will ever get to the truth here. If you can afford it it might be worth sending for either Mary Elizabeth Gurman
or Francis Celina Gurman's certificate as we know they should be Noah's daughters.
Jan
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It seems very likely that George Gurman is George French given she's put his occupation as sawyer like you say. What I'd like to find is what happened to Noah and when, if there is some kind of record showing he was lost at sea then that would pretty much confirm our theory. I'm having a quick search through the National Archives records but haven't found anything so far...
Does anyone have any idea where a lost a sea record might be found for the 1871 - 1875ish time period we're probably looking at?
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Find My Past have deaths at sea, but there are no Gurmans there.
I dont know if this link is any good http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.phptitle=Births,_Marriages_and_Deaths_at_Sea
I suppose it really depends what sort of boat he was on whether his death was registered or not. If the entire crew were lost perhaps they were just listed as missing if bodies were never found.
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Looking again at the 1871 with Noah on board a boat, it is a very small boat, perhaps a fishing boat?
Piece: 914 Folio: 73 Page: 0 Medway Chatham
Robert Matthew 23 Master born Sussex
Noah Gurman 23 Mate born Botley Hampshire
George Southam 16 Boy born Jersey
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If the GURMAN children were baptised at Botley then you might find them on here
http://mti.botley.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=491&Itemid=332
It says there are problems with the data and I can't get anything to work. You might have more luck. :-\
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Thanks for that link bearkat, unfortunately I can't get it to work either.
I've found this website:
http://www.familyrelatives.com/
it's free to register (which I've done) and view records and has a list of GRO Marine Deaths Indices. I put in the years 1871 - 1875 and filter by the letter G for surname, and event death. It returned four pages to view but when I click on them to view there seems to be some sort of problem and I can't see the lists, I even tried a different browser to no avail. It says I need a plugin, but doesn't tell what plugin I need? I wonder if anyone here can see the lists and if Noah Gurman is on there? Or if anyone knows what plugin I need to view them myself? I'm getting a little frustrated!
-edit- oh hang on I see I need to download djvu viewer, let me try that and see what happens...
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well, I've installed the viewer and it's still not working...
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I've been informed that on Find My Past Crew Lists 1861 - 1913 there is a Noah Gorman, year of voyage 1871, year of birth 1844, birth county Hampshire. The vessel is AUGUSTA No 15229, according to Bristol record office.
I wonder if this could be our Noah?
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and here's confirmation from IGi familysearch of Noah being the father of the girls!
Frances Selina Gorman bp 12 Mar 1871 Westend, Hampshire
daughter of Noah & Selina Gorman
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I've been informed that on Find My Past Crew Lists 1861 - 1913 there is a Noah Gorman, year of voyage 1871, year of birth 1844, birth county Hampshire. The vessel is AUGUSTA No 15229, according to Bristol record office.
I wonder if this could be our Noah?
Just looked at that and the information fits, so I reckon that's him. He must have joined them after the census as that isn't the boat he was on then. The Augusta had a crew of 20 in 1871.
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I found a shipwreck report for the Augusta (and another ship Flying Hurricane - it was on tow), but it's 1879 so later than we'd be thinking for Noah, and the report states the crew abandoned ship and reached the shore safely, so I doubt this is linked to his disappearance/death.
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oh my gosh, been doing some googling and found this list of shipwrecks:
http://www.promare.co.uk/ships/Wrecks/ListAll.html
with this entry catching my eye:
name Augusta of Plymouth
type dandy
date 1872
location Plymouth sound, 1.5 miles inside
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That is a good find.
I still cant find a death at sea record for him, so probably he was reported missing presumed dead and that is why Selina could never marry George French. He was single, the father of her younger children and they lived together for at least 15 years so there must have been a reason.
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So AUGUSTA no 15229 is a different vessel, I thought it was strange he'd move from a small boat like the Comet to a large steamship like AUGUSTA no 15229 was in the same year.
The Augusta of Plymouth being a dandy seems far more likely and it hits the right date.
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Is a dandy the same as a hooker? I'm not very up on ships. :-\
The British Newspaper Archives says that the hooker Augusta sank with it's catch of mackeral and 2 of......
How frustrating!
Were 2 crew members lost?
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Oh dear, what a place to stop - I think lilirose may have to buy credits to satisfy her curiosity. ;D
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2 men were lost - William FORSTER and Richard EASTON.
Back to the drawing board. :(
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arghhhh! I've just read an article from the Hampshire Advertiser and it says the two men who died were called William Forster and Richard Easton, and the two other crew of the Augusta were rescued. Could he be one of them and then died afterwards? But then why no death record? Will we never track down this elusive Noah?
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There is this bit as well:
" hooker Augusta was run down off the. Breakwater on Saturday by the trawler Skim of the Sea. The hooker, with her catch of 3,000........"
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William FORSTER and Richard EASTON.
They both appear in Freebmd deaths registered Plymouth Devon 1872.
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out of interest I went on freebmd and entered under deaths 'unknown male' age 25-30 for 1871 - 1875 just to see if anything came up, and discovered there are lots, mainly around coastal areas, so I guess bodies of unidentified sailors washed ashore were issued a death certificate but with no name. Noah is probably one of those.
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although disheartened by my excitement last night about the Augusta of Plymouth and then the disappointment, I'm not giving up on my search for Noah just yet.
I've found another Augusta wreck dating from 1876:
http://www.pastscape.org.uk/hob.aspx?hob_id=1365149
a schooner lost of Hartlepool with a crew of four
now to try and find out a little bit more about it...
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quick update - the crew of the Augusta 1876 wreck were all rescued. However I have discovered that this Augusta vessel is of Shoreham which given that Noah was previously on the Comet at Medway, Kent on the 1871 census makes this almost certainly the correct Augusta! Where I can take this search to next I'm not sure though...
-edit-
- darn, just seen there are two Shorehams one in Kent and one in Sussex
and it looks like the Sussex one is coastal, so probably that one. Might not be Noah's Augusta after all.
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Hi Lilirose
I was just reading your post and wondering how you connected Medway with Shoreham ;D ;D The Shoreham where the boat was registered was the Sussex one as it is a port. Its full name is Shoreham by Sea and it is in fact it is only about 15 miles along the coast from where I am at the moment. The other Shoreham in Kent is a village about 6 miles north of Sevenoaks, so is well inland.
I think your idea about Noah being lost at sea and his body not identified may be as far as you can get with him. :'(
Jan
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I wonder if Selina applied for relief from the South Stoneham Union. ???
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/SouthStoneham/
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Hello,
I know this is an old thread but I am really hoping some of you are still about! I am currently researching my family tree and was researching my Nan's family. My Nan's maiden name was Gurman. Her Dad Fred Gurman born in 1887. I believe that his mother name is Selina but was getting very confused with this stem and conflicting census when I found this thread... Very interesting! What was the conclusion about Noah? And who is likely to be Fred Gurman's father?
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I also found:
Name: George Gurman
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1882
Relation to Head: Crew
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Botley, Hampshire, England
Civil Parish: Royal Navy
on the 1901 census
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- Why can't I find anything about Fred Gurman after the 1891 census?
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Hi,
Do you think Fred could have started using the full version of that name Frederick?
I can't find a birth of a Frederick GURMAN of about the same age but I have found this death,
Frederick GURMAN
DOB: 07 Nov 1887
Mar 1970 Northampton 3b 1901
Oh, looking at a different post of yours, you do know that he married Mabel GIBBONS in the 1920s,
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=728180.msg5727378#msg5727378
this looks like the marriage, so if that's the right Fred he is using Frederick,
Frederick GURMAN
Mabel GIBBINS
DecQ 1924 Northampton 3b 99
This would fit with the Northamptonshire death place.
Regards,
Daisy
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Thank you. I managed to Speak to my Nan (Fred's daughter) and she knows he spent some time in France before WW1 so I know believe this is why he does not show up on the census data.