RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: GDub71 on Saturday 18 August 12 20:09 BST (UK)
-
I've just cracked one of my wife's ancestral lines and the reason for my difficulties in doing so now appears clear. Her ancestors were William Moir and Ann Chisholm married at Grange in 1791. William Moir appears to have been from Cairnie and is too difficult to pin down, the name being quite common in Aberdeenshire. Ann Chisholm though is a much easier spot, b.1769, daughter of Alexander Chisholm and Margaret Gaa. That was as far as I got until I found her siblings with various Surnames:
Chizet, Chizzet, Chizat and her father as Chizzat, Chezzet and Chizzat
Although it later became Chisholm, I'm not convinced that it is a derivation of that name. Could it be an entirely separate Surname, or perhaps an alternative of Chessor, from King Edward direction?
Also, Margaret's surname Gaa is also given as; Gawn, Gall and Goal. I supect this might be a form of Gauld, but maybe not?
I've never seen so many derivations of Surnames in any of my 20 years research and to find it within a married couple so is very odd. Anybody got any ideas on this?
:-\
-
Gaa, needless to say ;D is not common in the UK. It is slightly more common in the USA, see:
http://www.britishsurnames.co.uk/surnames/GAA
-
Appears to be of German origin:
http://www.houseofnames.com/Gaa-history?A=54323-292
-
I had seen that, it could be a throwback to the period when settlers arrived in Scotland from Flanders and Brabantia (Craib's for example). I suspect that for many, Aberdeen was their point of entry and they spread out from there to find places where their trades were desirable.
I did find another... a Janet Gaa married to an Alexander Bruce with their family starting n 1768 in Grange. Likely a younger sister or niece of Margaret Gaa. The fact that I can't find their births, or any Gaa's before them is probably owing to some variation in the name. In other words I don't know what to look for!
Now, if Chizet also has European origins, that would perhaps be significant!
-
Have you considered the possibility that Gaa is a variant spelling of Gaw? This does occur in Scotland as a surname, though it's not common. It in turn may of course be a variant of the surname Gow, from 'gobha', which is Gaelic for 'smith', the commonest surname of all.
Gall is common enough, and often occurs as a variant of Gauld or Gold. I suspect that they all have a common origin.
-
Gall is common enough, and often occurs as a variant of Gauld or Gold. I suspect that they all have a common origin.
... and we have a winner! Margaret Gall b.1733 to James Gall and Jean Craib, at Grange and Janet Gall b.1736 to same parents. So at least I had the sisters part right!
There's a whole load of Gall's and Gaul's in 18th Century Grange. I suppose it all comes back to phonetics!
Nice one Forfarian :)
-
A couple of other Grange Chizets for you:
In 1701-02 Margaret Chizet in Bracco was in trouble with the kirk session for making a false accusation.
In 1706 Patrick Chizet was one of a group fined for "drinking and makeing abuse" in William Robb's house on the Sabbath night.
On 8th June 1707 Patrick Chizet in Nethermill "was appoynted to get up his Marriage pledges for himself and his wife seeing there was no Scandall found to be at his Marriage."
William Robb lived at Nethermill, so it is likely that the two Patricks are the same man.
As to Galls, I hope you are a descendant of the Thomas Gall who, at Grange in 1707, "scandalously misbehaved in the Church in the time of prayer by throwing a strangers bonnet out of the door". :o
-
Thanks GR2, yes, since I've just put the final pieces together today regarding the Gaa's (Gall's)... and these are my wife's ancestors not mine, so I'm happy for them to do all manners of ill... it seems that the wife is definitely descended from Thomas Gall and Margaret Lawrence. Likewise, she is also descended from Patrick (Peter) Chizet and Isobell Bruce. So, I will happily include the information you have supplied regarding the antics of both. Margaret Chizet is Patrick's siter I'm sure, but unusually for Grange no births for either (would be around 1680), unless they are going under some other exotic variation of their name.
Cheers all the same!
:)
-
Well, since you are digging the dirt and rattling the skeletons on your wife's side ............
(2nd June 1695)
"The said day sederunt the said Mr William Hamilton Moderator and the Elders and after prayer Margaret Thomson in Paithnick was delate to be with child to Thomas Gall in Balnamain and both being summoned to this dyet were called in and acknowledged the guilt and they being removed and the Sessions mind being sought anent them The Session thought fit to appoynt them both to enter the profession of their repentance (it being a relapse to the woman) when the opportunity of actuall ministers preaching at this place could be had and the man to pay five merks of poenaltie (being single fornication to him) and the woman ten Merks and so they were called in and the Sessions mind told to them and exhorted to there duty and dismissed".
Margaret Thomson "sometime in Muriefold" had a child by George Nuckell in 1699. As it was a "trelapse" to her, she ended up appearing nineteen times in sackcloth, being referred to the Presbytery and having to pay a fine of £10 Scots. Sounds like the same woman. If so, she was not married to Thomas Gall at that point.
-
The wife sure doesn't like it when I lay out the iniquities of her ancestors. Another one of her ancestors "struck the Minister". Can you imagine that?
I wonder if Margaret Thomson's child by Thomas Gall survived? This information is helpful in that it does suggests that Thomas was a good bit older than I believed him to be!
-
Hi there. Only a year late, but have just spotted this. I am a descendant of Janet Gall/Gaa who married Alexander Bruce in 1766 in Grange, Banffshire. They had 3 sons and 2 daughters, and I'm descended from the middle child (and eldest son) William Bruce. There was a witness by the name of Alexander Chizzat at the baptism of one of their children, Margaret Bruce. If you'd like any more info, would be happy to send! :)
Gall is common enough, and often occurs as a variant of Gauld or Gold. I suspect that they all have a common origin.
... and we have a winner! Margaret Gall b.1733 to James Gall and Jean Craib, at Grange and Janet Gall b.1736 to same parents. So at least I had the sisters part right!
There's a whole load of Gall's and Gaul's in 18th Century Grange. I suppose it all comes back to phonetics!
Nice one Forfarian :)
-
Of course Carol, I'm always happy to add other branches to my tree. I take it that you've already worked out Janet's parents and Grandparents then. That's as far as I could get!
It's funny, because quite often the cut-off point seems to be around the time of the Great Fire of London. If you can get back beyond that in the North-East, then you're doing well!
-
I have to say I haven't delved very far back into Janet's ancestry at all really, other than her parents who were James Gall and Janet Crabe/Craib. I presume you have all her other siblings (there were 6 children altogether - 3 boys and 3 girls): James 1726, Alexander 1729, William 1731, and Isabel 1741. Thanks for inadvertently providing me with the name of Isabell Bruce's husband, Patrick Chizzet (William's sister).
Don't know if you have this info. It's from the baptism records (provided to me by another Bruce chaser):
Jannet's surname is spelled "Gaa" in baptisms of five children:
1 Isobel BRUCE born Thorntown, bpt Grange 12 January 1768.
Witnesses "William Keith in Farmtown, William Gall, Isobel Syme & Isabel Gaa"
2 Margaret BRUCE b Thorntown, bpt Grange 5 May 1770. (named after Alexander’s mother)
Witnesses "Alexr Chizzat & Alexr Shand, Margt Keith, Margt Gaa"
3 William BRUCE b Thorntown, bpt Grange 21 May 1772.
Witnesses "William Brown Schoolmaster at Grange, Anna Innes at Braco, Miss Katherine [rest illegible, discoloured and torn at bottom of page]"
4 Alexander BRUCE's baptism has no date. It is squeezed in very small handwriting between entries for January 17th and January 20th 1774:
"Alexander Bruce in Thorntown had a Child by his wife Jannet Gaa baptised and called Alexander. Witnesses Alexander Thomson, Jean Shand, Thorntown, Alexander Gordon, Craiglethy"
5 James BRUCE b Kirktown of Grange, bpt Grange 13 January 1780.
Witnesses "James Hui in Nethermiln and James Shand in Loch of Skeen and James Martin in Kirktown" (Loch of Skeen may have been in Forgue.)
I suspect that a lot of records have been lost in the past, due to fire or whatever. Research can be a bit of a lottery at times.
-
Well, if I haven't mentioned them already, James Gall's parents were:
Thomas Gall and Margaret Lawrence (Thomas was in Balnamoon in 1695 when he begat a child through fornication with Margaret Thomson)
James was baptised 03/05/1702
His wife Jean Craib's parents were:
William Craib and Margaret Gairden
Jean was baptised 25/10/1702
I would be interested to know how William and Isobel Bruce are connected if you have evidence of that, as my wife is a descendant of Isobel.
-
Thanks for the info on James and Jean's parents. I think you did mention James' father was Thomas.
So your wife is related to Isobell? That's interesting - so she and I are distantly related! William and Isobell Bruce were brother and sister:
This was the family:
Isobell BRUCE, christened 12 January, 1768, Grange, Banff
Margaret BRUCE, christened 5 May, 1770, Grange, Banff, married John Christie
William BRUCE, christened 21 May, 1772, Grange, Banff
Alexander BRUCE, christened 1 January, 1774, Grange, Banff
James BRUCE, christened 13 January, 1780, Grange, Banff
William was employed by the Earl of Fife as a personal assistant, and his brother Alexander was in the Napoleonic wars. I have letters written to William by Alexander, in the early 1800's, saying how much he wanted out of the army and asking William to put in a good word for him with the Earl, to get him out. I don't know what the replies were! :)
Well, if I haven't mentioned them already, James Gall's parents were:
Thomas Gall and Margaret Lawrence (Thomas was in Balnamoon in 1695 when he begat a child through fornication with Margaret Thomson)
James was baptised 03/05/1702
His wife Jean Craib's parents were:
William Craib and Margaret Gairden
Jean was baptised 25/10/1702
I would be interested to know how William and Isobel Bruce are connected if you have evidence of that, as my wife is a descendant of Isobel.
-
How cool to have letters from so far back. However, that Isobel Bruce wasn't married to Patrick Chizet, as their eldest child William Chizat was born in 1709. It's possible that she was their Grandfather's sister maybe?
-
Just recently caught up with this thread and the post about
Margaret Bruce and John Christie. My wife's family
are descended through Margaret and John's daughter
Isabella Christie born in Garrowood in 1807 who married
an Andrew Murdoch in Grange in 1828. We have traced
the family after this but have nothing before.
Its interesting to read about Margaret Bruce because
all we knew about her was from some christenings and some
death certs. John Christie is in the 1841 Census but not
Margaret.
-
Hi there!
I am Janet Gall and Alexander Bruce descendant!
My line goes through James Bruce who moved to Nova Scotia.
I would SINCERELY be interested in knowing more about this family! Especially the ancestors of Alexander Bruce:)
Also Carolbee I would be HIGHLY MOTIVATED to pay you to copy the letters you have between William and Alexander!
Please get in touch!
I believe the Bruce’s at one time were quite affluent... so I am also interested in learning where the demise occurred and why. Especially since my family suddenly moved to Nova Scotia. They founded the Bruce Settlement there.
Happy New Year!
-
Hi Carolbee!
I’d be very interested in connecting you! I am a descendant of Alexander Bruce and Jane Gall.
My line goes through James Bruce (their son) who moved to Nova Scotia. He had a daughter Jane Bruce who married Peter Cruikshank!
Happy New Year!
Thanks for the info on James and Jean's parents. I think you did mention James' father was Thomas.
So your wife is related to Isobell? That's interesting - so she and I are distantly related! William and Isobell Bruce were brother and sister:
This was the family:
Isobell BRUCE, christened 12 January, 1768, Grange, Banff
Margaret BRUCE, christened 5 May, 1770, Grange, Banff, married John Christie
William BRUCE, christened 21 May, 1772, Grange, Banff
Alexander BRUCE, christened 1 January, 1774, Grange, Banff
James BRUCE, christened 13 January, 1780, Grange, Banff
William was employed by the Earl of Fife as a personal assistant, and his brother Alexander was in the Napoleonic wars. I have letters written to William by Alexander, in the early 1800's, saying how much he wanted out of the army and asking William to put in a good word for him with the Earl, to get him out. I don't know what the replies were! :)
Well, if I haven't mentioned them already, James Gall's parents were:
Thomas Gall and Margaret Lawrence (Thomas was in Balnamoon in 1695 when he begat a child through fornication with Margaret Thomson)
James was baptised 03/05/1702
His wife Jean Craib's parents were:
William Craib and Margaret Gairden
Jean was baptised 25/10/1702
I would be interested to know how William and Isobel Bruce are connected if you have evidence of that, as my wife is a descendant of Isobel.
-
Lindsaycoleman306, first, your commemt "My line goes through James Bruce (their son) who moved to Nova Scotia". I believe you've got the wrong James Bruce. The Nova Scotia pioneer James Bruce was in fact son of Joseph Bruce & Jean Ord, bapt 14 Mar 1773 Rathven; he married Elspet Petrie in Grange eventually moving to Limeburn Grange by 1803. They had seven children in Grange, moved to Nova Scotia and then had another five children in Bruce Settlement, his youngest (Jane) indeed marrying Peter Cruickshank.
The killer evidence as to the identity of this James Bruce comes from the Presbyterian Witness (a Canadian newspaper) 14 Jan 1854: "BRUCE, James D.[died] 18th ult. at Musquodoboit, aged 84 years, n/o [native of] Limeburns, parish of Grange, Banffshire, Scot., emigated 1812, and settled in Musquodoboit." This proves he was this James Bruce and not some other James Bruce (unless something turns up that proves otherwise).
The Bruces were typical tenant nothing-special farmers, James Bruce being the youngest of 10, the first nine born at Crannach in Grange. He was the fourth son with his eldest brother taking over the Crannach tenancy, so it's no surprise he decided to make his way to Canada with his family.
Joseph Bruce & Jean Ord are my 5xgtgdparents.
Secondly, regarding (now) the two Bruce lines, the Joseph Bruce line can be traced back to 1680s still in Grange and then it gets all vague and ambiguous. William Bruce (father of Alexander Bruce subject of this thread) married Margaret Keith 16 Apr 1724 in Grange (his third marriage seemingly) but doesn't appear connected to the other Grange Bruces which suggests maybe he came into the parish from elsewhere.
Margaret Keith is d/o William Keith & Jean Smith who are my 7xgtgdparents, and they did move into Grange from Ruthven & Botarie before 1703.
So, Lindsaycoleman306, that could be a lot to take in and you might want to consider a bit of a genealogical reset. Happy New Year in return!