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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Berwickshire => Topic started by: heiserca on Tuesday 21 August 12 03:26 BST (UK)
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First known record of the Clazie name in the UK was at Hutton, Berwickshire, 1665. Records at Berwick-upon-Tweed, starting 1680, showed Clasie, Clasey, later Clazey, Clazy, Cleasie, Clezie, Clezy.
Now an earlier record, on FamilySearch, this one from France!
name: Chaterine
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 9 Jan 1656
baptism/christening place: Bram, Aude, France
death date: 14 Oct 1667
father’s name: Jean Jardel
mother’s name: Jeane Clazie
Bram is a village in southern France, just 90 km / 55 miles from Spain. The border wasn’t always there but other borders existed. And the English Channel too!
If the Clazie name originated in southern France, how did it get to Berwick and Berwickshire?
Let the wild speculation start...
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What? Nobody dares to guess? Well, let me start the ball rolling...
We have the Clazie name in France, 1656, and then in Scotland, 1665 - just 9 years later!
One theory is that they were Huguenots, French Protestants who fled because of religious persecution. We know that Huguenots came as refugees to England, and to Scotland. Some went as far away as South Africa!
RootsChat has a string of posts about Huguenots in the UK. Is there actual evidence of Huguenot families who settled at Berwick-upon-Tweed, and in Berwickshire?
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Hi
The Berwickshire Naturalists' Club has been discussing the history and natural history of Berwick and Berwickshire since its formation in 1831. There are two indices to its journals, covering 1831-1931, and 1932-1980, but there is not a single mention in either index of Huguenots, so I think it's safe to say there has never been a significant Huguenot presence in Berwick/Berwickshire as the Berwickshire Nats leave few stones unturned!
However, that doesn't rule out an individual family settling there for some reason.
(I also checked the indices for the Clazie name, but drew a blank)
Regards,
Lesley
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Thank you, Lesley. It could indeed have been an individual thing, rather than clusters of families.
It is known that French Protestants joined Scottish military regiments to fight against the Jacobites. And then in 1777, Margaret Palen or Paulin, from Hutton, married John Claise or Clezy, who was described as "a member of His Majesty's Royal Artillery stationed at Edinburgh."
Paulin and Clazie are seemingly French names. How to explain them popping up in Berwickshire? So much is obscure as we get farther back in history.
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Need to correct myself: "At the time of his marriage to Margaret Paulin on 15 Sep 1777 he stated that he was attached to His Majesty’s Corps of Artillery at Perth."
How did Margaret from Hutton meet a military man from Perth?
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Lesley, interesting that you mentioned the “History of the Berwickshire Naturalists’ Club”. It was our first tipoff to the Clazie presence in Berwickshire!
Volume 7 described renovations to Hutton kirk during the 17th century, and quoted from the Kirk Session Book:
“19 March 1685 - "Given to Jon Clazie for drink qn the bell came home - 16 sh."
That confirms the Clazie presence in Berwickshire by 1685! But where did they come from, and when?
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Typographical error... the entry in the Hutton Kirk Session Book was “19 March 1665 not 1685. Clazies have been in Berwickshire at least since 1665.
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I'm struggling to find a mention of any such family in the records of the Huguenot Society, though interestingly there is a mention of four men, Cornlieus, John, Anthony and Nicolas, by the surname 'Clase', all Dutch Fishermen from Zeeland, settled each with their respective wives in Great Yarmouth in the 1570's. Of course Berwick also sits almost opposite Zeeland, so it's a possibility, perhaps more likely than Huguenots treking all the way there from South of France.
It was in fact relatively uncommon for refugees from that part of France to flee, because numerically they were strong enough to hold their own ground there, and far enough away from Paris and the seat of centralised power to contemplate and actively do so (See the Camisard War for example). Those who did flee would much more likely flee across to Geneva, which as the base of Calvin himself, was effectively the base of the French Huguenots, a safe haven amongst their co religionists and a much more desirable place to reach then England or Scotland. Something like 90% of all Huguenots in England were from Northern France, in particular Normandy, Poitou or Picardy.
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Thank you, richarde. How then to explain this seemingly French name in Berwick and Berwickshire?
Records at Colchester, Essex showed families with surnames Claise, Clayse, Clayce as early as 1564, and clearly identified those families as "French Protestants".
Baptisms at Berwick-upon-Tweed showed surnames Clasie and Clasey, starting in 1666, with no indication of where the names came from, whether native or otherwise.
The Clazie spelling has been found in two separate spots, and not elsewhere: 1656 at Bram, in southern France, and 1665 at Hutton, Berwickshire. The name is unusual and seems unlikely to have arisen spontaneously in two separate spots. How might they be connected?
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There's a tendency to class any French immigrants found in Britain a few hundred years ago as Huguenots, but I suppose individuals could have come here at different times for different reasons. I had Ulster Protestant ancestors called Petticrew in the Belfast area, and you can find that surname in articles about Huguenots in Ireland, but in fact the name appears in Scotland as early as 1296, and although it is certainly of French origin, it probably came here at or shortly after the Norman Conquest. The Petticrews in Lanarkshire seem to have had close links with the Hamilton family, who were Anglo-Norman.
A little while ago I was researching Stewart ancestors in Kelso, and I worked out that I was probably descended from a Robert Stewart and Nanc [sic] Companion who were married there in 1609. Companion??? It was a very rare name in Scotland to judge from Scotlandspeople, and died out here a long time ago, but it seems to be an anglicised version of French Compagnon, which is still current in France, while both Compagnon and Companion are found in French-speaking Canada.
So I believe that Nanc (Nancy? Agnes?) Companion was of French descent, but I don't feel there is enough evidence to assert that she was one of the French Protestant refugees that we refer to as Huguenots.
As a famous Scottish football manager once said in response to a question, "Mebbe aye, mebbe no!"
Harry
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Well, evading the question isn’t the same as finding the answer.
Before modern times, Clazie existed in but two places: the Languedoc-Rousillon region of France, and Berwickshire. What explains its presence in both places, nearly 400 years ago?
Paulin is another example: a French name found in Scotland. In 1777, John Claise / Clazie / Clezy & Margaret Palen / Paline / Paulin, wed at Hutton. When did the Paulin name first appear in Berwickshire? How did it got there?
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It's fascinating to speculate about these things, but in the absence of documentary evidence as to the reason for them being here, your speculation will remain just that.
A lot of books and articles have been written about Scots in Europe, but the movement wasn't all one way of course, and many Europeans moved to Scotland. To judge from the evidence of the later period, 18th-19th century onwards, I would say that anyone moving to the UK from continental Europe must have had some kind of skill to offer. I don't see an illiterate farm labourer moving here. Were your Clazie ancestors labourers or did they have a trade? The 18th century Register of Aliens in Edinburgh mentions a parfumier/hairdresser called Pierre Lecadit. Unbelievably, he actually became the ancestor of some fishing families in my native East Neuk of Fife after the marriage of his daughter Elisabeth to a David Muir of Cellardyke.
A bit later still, a fishing family called Montador moved to Cellardyke from Boulogne, followed a bit later by some relatives from Boulogne called Gen. I knew some of the Gen family's descendants when I was growing up and I have a relative married into the Montadors, who these days are in the fish merchant business. A descendant of the Montadors in Australia has traced their births, marriages and deaths in Revolutionary France, including marriages with the Gens. In the 1841 census of Kilrenny parish in East Fife, a number of French fishing boats are enumerated in a local harbour, and one of the Montadors is lodging in a house in Anstruther.
It's so much easier to research French ancestors at this late stage in time, but you are unlikely to find the reason for your ancestors being here in the 1600s, just as I will never know what brought Nanc Companion to Kelso of all places. What I have noticed about the few Companions in 17th c. Scotland is that they tend to be in the seaports.
Incidentally, I said I was descended from a Robert Stewart and Nanc Companion. I meant James Stewart. I recently wrote an article about my Stewarts in Kelso for the journal of the Borders Family History Society.
Harry
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Hello Heiserca
I didn't realise there was an actual source in England positively linking the name with the Huguenots. That said do you have any further information. It's possible that this may be a misunderstanding as the only 'Foreign Protestant' Church in Colchester I'm aware of was actually a Dutch church not a French Church. It's records have been published by the Huguenot Society of GB & Ireland:
Quarto Series XII Register of the Dutch Church, Colchester [1645-1728]
Obviously this may have led to a mis-identification of anyone contained in those records as Huguenot. In fact very few 'Huguenots' in the true sense of the word, came to England before the late 1670's, bar a relatively small number during the French Religious Wars 1562-98, many of whom in all likelyhood eventually returned to France anyway, and an even smaller number after the fall of La Rochelle in the 1620's. It seems unlikely either wave would have contained a great deal if any Languedoc refugees.
The vast majority of the Foreign Protestants who came to England before that point were from the Netherlands, French speaking Walloons and Flemish speaking Dutch, escaping the persecutions of the Spanish. At first they shared the same places of worship in England but very soon these split into seperate Dutch and French congregations, and the Colchester one was very much Dutch. The Huguenot society nevertheless encompasses these in the wider scope of it's research as together with actual Huguenots from France, all three built the early foundations of the later community.
It certainly is interesting that the two spellings appear in two such far flung seperate places, at a similar time period, though of course the spelling of surnames being as fluid then as they were, I think this could more likely be explained by a simple coincidence, then perhaps might be the case today. Certainly refugees did come from the South of France to the British Isles, but relatively few, and usually at a later date. In comparison to their brethren in the north they tend to have left a much firmer paper trail too, as the circumstances to bring about such a move, tended to be far more extraordinary.
Regards
Richard
Thank you, richarde. How then to explain this seemingly French name in Berwick and Berwickshire?
Records at Colchester, Essex showed families with surnames Claise, Clayse, Clayce as early as 1564, and clearly identified those families as "French Protestants".
Baptisms at Berwick-upon-Tweed showed surnames Clasie and Clasey, starting in 1666, with no indication of where the names came from, whether native or otherwise.
The Clazie spelling has been found in two separate spots, and not elsewhere: 1656 at Bram, in southern France, and 1665 at Hutton, Berwickshire. The name is unusual and seems unlikely to have arisen spontaneously in two separate spots. How might they be connected?
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A second early example of the Clazie name on the Continent:
Jean Clazie married Jeane Louise Gonzal, on 1 May 1723, at Burgerlijke Administracie, Leuwarden, Friesland, Netherlands.
I recall from a university history course, the Huguenots were quite strong in parts of France. When they were driven out, they went where they could, to more hospitable countries, Switzerland, some to England, a smaller number to Scotland. Many took refuge in the Netherlands.
Now these two isolated records, the Clazie name in southern France, 1656, and in the northern part of the Netherlands, 1723. Coincidence? The first known records of the name in the UK were at Hutton, Berwickshire, 1665, and Berwick-upon-Tweed, 1666.
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That does match with the earlier records of Dutch fishermen by a similar name coming from Netherlands. I'm more inclined to think the Clazie spelling arose as an independant variation amongst the Dutch of Clase/Claze and they bought it to England via the fishing ports.
The Netherlands was the premier port of refuge for Huguenots, of the north of France at least, as it was a state that supported religious freedoms fully, a rarity in 17th century Europe, and the principle Statdholder William of Orange was the main enemy of Louis XIV, and like the Huguenots of France a Calvinist. In fact on his fathers side he was the great great grandson of Gaspard De Coligny, the leader of the Huguenots during France's religious wars, assasinated during the Massacre of St Bartholomews Eve, and on his mothers side he was great grandson of King Henry IV of France, 'Henry the Huguenot' the only Huguenot King to ever rule France. You can see then why the Huguenot's had a strong loyalty to William. About 100,000 Huguenots in total fled to the Netherlands, though many moved on to England after William's death. However they tended to be concentrated around Amsterdam, Haarlem and Leide where existing French speaking Churches the 'Waals Kerks' were located, having been set up by the Walloons who had fled the southern part of the Netherlands after the northern part succesfully asserted it's indepependance from the Kings of Spain in the first half of the 17th century. You would not generally expect to find many Huguenots located in Friesland.
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Many Huguenots also fled to Protestant Prussia. I believe the great German novelist Theodor Fontane was descended from Huguenots called Fontaine.
I'm not sure whether or not the German politician Oskar Lafontaine has a similar background. He is a native of the Saarland which of course has changed hands between France and Germany several times.
Harry
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Hi Harry
That's absolutely correct. Frederick William of Prussia was one of the few leaders canny enough to realise these refugees represented the economic elite of French society, and he actively tried to entice them into his realm, with a fair degree of success. In fact one particular Huguenot family was instrumental in the collapse of the French economy in 1721 and most of the millions that went missing at that time ended up in Prussia! Frederick the Great's tutor was a Huguenot.
Regards
Richard
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This topic becomes more obscure because these names in Europe are at a time before surnames were universal. By 1400 almost everyone in England and Scotland had a surname. But surnames were optional in the Netherlands until 1811. Some people there had surnames, while others used the patronymic system: the father's forename was added after one's own. Clazie was a Dutch personal name. If a man was William, and his father was Clazie, the son was called William Clazie. A Dutch fisherman who relocated to England or Scotland, might find his patronymc Clazie henceforth used as a surname, passed to later generations.
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In my native East Neuk of Fife one of the old-established surnames in the fishing communities is Boyter. That happens to be the Scots word for a bittern, but I don't see this fairly rare bird giving rise to a surname. I think our Boyters may derive from a Dutch or Frisian Buiter, a name still current in northern parts of the Netherlands. The author of the Latin Vita Kentegerni (Life of St. Kentigern) states that even in his day (mid-1100s) fishermen from all over Northern Europe were flocking to the rich fishing-grounds around the May Island in the Firth of Forth.
Harry
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Spelling of this family name differed with time and place, and with each person. The vowel was sometimes “a”, sometimes “e”; the next letter “s” or “z”; the ending “ie”, “ey” or "y".
My great-great-great-grandfather, born 1787 at Hutton, wrote his name “George Clezie”; younger siblings variously wrote it Clazey, Clazie, Clazy, Cleasie, Clezy.
First known record of the name in Scotland was March 1665 at Hutton, where the Kirk Session Book showed payment of 16 shillings to “Jon Clazie” for delivering the kirk bell .
One year later, Oct 1666, down the road at Berwick-upon-Tweed, a christening showed “Elenor Clasie”; that was followed in January 1670 by her brother “William Clasey”. Different spelling each time!
No wonder we can’t be sure what was the “original” version. How original?
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Clazie remains the most common spelling of the name in Scotland today, also found at Berwick-upon-Tweed, and was carried by emigrants to Ontario, Canada and later to California, USA. But found almost nowhere else in the word!
Early records showed it at 3 widely-separated places:
1656 at Bram, Aude, southern France
1665 at Hutton, Berwickshire, southeastern Scotland
1723 at Leeuwarden, Friesland, northern Netherlands
The name is unusual, unlikely to be confused with other names. What explains its appearance in three far-apart locations?
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Looking at the IGI, there are actually many of instances of the surname Clasie, Clacie, Clacy throughout the 17th century in England, mostly southern. It could well be that the Scottish Clazies are a branch of this family rather than of any foreign origin, As you've noted spelling was fluid even for centuries after this.
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You are correct that those names with a middle “c” are found in parts of England. But the Clazie spelling - with “z” - is unique: found in France, the Netherlands, Berwickshire, Berwick-upon-Tweed, nowhere else until the 19th century. “Z” is the consistency, although my ancestors had limited literacy and occasionally changed it to “s”.
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You are correct that those names with a middle “c” are found in parts of England. But the Clazie spelling - with “z” - is unique: found in France, the Netherlands, Berwickshire, Berwick-upon-Tweed, nowhere else until the 19th century. “Z” is the consistency, although my ancestors had limited literacy and occasionally changed it to “s”.
Given that the Clasie, Clacie, Clacey etc group of names is widely distributed, then I think you're probably looking for something that doesn't exist when searching for a historical reason for Clazies being located in the three places you mention.
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Well, that is exactly the question: when the Clazie name appears in France, Scotland and the Netherlands, all within the space of 70 years between 1656-1723 - with identical spelling - are the three instances connected? Or is it just a bizarre coincidence? We can speculate but looking for some evidence.
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Well, that is exactly the question: when the Clazie name appears in France, Scotland and the Netherlands, all within the space of 70 years between 1656-1723 - with identical spelling - are the three instances connected? Or is it just a bizarre coincidence? We can speculate but looking for some evidence.
I can't see what's bizarre about it. It seems a very normal and typical spelling change. The fact that you see it being recorded as "Clazie", rather than Clacy, Clase, Claisey etc in three different places just seems like chance rather than anything significant.
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Yes I'd tend to agree, as far as evidence goes there doesn't seem to be any that would link the three instances. At that time period the obvious thought would be Huguenot refugees IF there was a link, but that doesn't seem the case at all. I would personally be more inclined to think it is just a coincidence, and actually not all that bizarre, as Mike in Cumbria says the substitution of 'z' for 's' was a common spelling variation particularly amongst western European languages, so it would perhaps be more suprising not to see it occur independantly if the surname is widely spread.
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Thank you for the speculation. We continue to await any evidence either for or against a Continental connection.
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Thank you for the speculation. We continue to await any evidence either for or against a Continental connection.
What sort of evidence, for or against?
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Well of course your right, back this far much of genealogy is reduced to speculation, due to the sparsity of source material, though you can still attempt to make fairly informed guesses, from what small evidence does exist.
I would certainly not go as far as to rule out a continental connection, there is clear evidence of Dutch 'Clase' families settling in England, as stated in my previous post.
In your post Tuesday 28 August you stated "Records at Colchester, Essex showed families with surnames Claise, Clayse, Clayce as early as 1564, and clearly identified those families as "French Protestants" Do you have more information on that as that would be firm evidence there is a Huguenot link if true.
That said it could just as easily be this was a native name in Scotland. The fact the name first appears in records in 1665 I think can not be treated as particularly significant due to the nature of Scottish parish records themselves. Most of my Scottish families are traced back to this sort of period 1650-1750, as records for the ordinary people rarely tend to stretch back any further, and even then are sparse.
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The names that I mentioned at Colchester, Essex are nothing new: they are on the IGI, easily searchable. Nathaniell Claise, 1570; Henrye Claise, 1564; Peter Clayes, 1567; John Clayes, 1604. But there is no known connection between them and the Clazie names at Berwick-upon-Tweed and in Berwickshire, which usually included a middle z.
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Hi Hieserca
The reason I ask is because you stated "Records at Colchester, Essex showed families with surnames Claise, Clayse, Clayce as early as 1564, and clearly identified those families as "French Protestants"
The IGI doesn't show any indication these men were French Protestants. Where did you get this information, is it contained in the original register that you have had access to?
If an original record exists positively identifying the surname with French protestant refugees in England at such an early date then that would be very significant. Of course it would not prove your Berwickshire family have the same origin, but would definitely make it more possible than would seem the case at the moment.
I would say though that perhaps there is still a little too much emphasis in your own thoughts on this towards the significance of the spelling of the name. I think the Clazie's of Hutton Berwickshire are more likely to be linked to the, much closer geographically, Claise's of Essex, then to the far flung Clazie's of Southern France, because spelling at that time was so fluid as to be of little overall importance.
For example, it may have simply been dependent on how the local parish clerk decided it should be spelt more than any other factor. The fact that in the near by parish of Berwick upon Tweed the same family name is present at same time but without the 'z' spelling again points more that way than any other.
I think it would take an extraordinary leap of faith to link the Hutton family to the Netherlands and France on the basis of that evdence alone, the other factors do not really support it.
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http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~walkersj/Colchester.htm
Found this website that does mark that family of foreign origin. But they are not French they are Dutchmen from the Netherlands, and quite possibly since Nicholas Claes appears it could well be linked to the same groups of families noted in the Huguenot Society records as Fishermen from Zeeland.
Either way it is worth noting this family is not French or Huguenot. The author of that website is a bit confused in some of his facts. For example he states French Protestants (Huguenots) fled into the Netherlands and then again to England. This DID happen much later in the 1660's onwards when the North part of the Netherlands the United Provinces was an independant state and a religious safe haven, but this was not the case, certainly before 1610 at very earliest, when all of the Netherlands was under Spanish control and protestants under an even more brutal opression there, than in France. For Huguenots to flee there in the mid and late 16th century would have been plain daft, jumping from the frying pan into the fire so to speak.
I believe the author has been confused by the fact that many of the protestants who fled the southern most part of the Netherlands at this time were ethnic Walloons. Walloon is a sister language of French, and alot of Walloon lands were later annexed into France by Louis XIV, but these people were not French and therefore not 'Huguenots' though the author is not the first to confuse them as such since.
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Some really wild speculation for you.........Going through your old posts, the first evidence you have for the surname Clazie in Hutton is 1665 with a Jon Clazie dlelivering a Bell. You also know this bell was made at Middelburg in Zeeland. There is absolutely no evidence of that surname in use amongst the French Huguenots or being bought to the British Isles by them, but there is evidence from elsewhere in the country of Dutchmen by a similar surname coming to England and settling 100 years previous from the exact same place Zeeland! Could it not actually be that Jon was a Dutchmen from Zeeland, delivered the bell and then decided to stay! Perhaps he is the original source of the Berwick Clazies!
Whether true or not, I believe the Clazie surname appearing in the South of France is likely a red herring and clouding the wider picture. My money would be on the Hutton Clazie family being either Dutch or native Brit in origin.
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You may be entirely right, but so far we've been unable to prove the source of the name. Jon Clazie delivered the kirk bell to Hutton in 1665. He was rewarded with 16 shillings "for drink", so he likely didn't have to bring it terribly far. A cross-Channel voyage with a heavy bell would have been worth more than the price of a drink!
Before 1665, everything is opaque. In Churchill's phrasing, "...a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."
Clazie is sufficiently like Claise, Classey, Classie, Clayce, other names found in parts of England, so it might be related to them. But the identical spelling - Clazie - is now found in France, the Netherlands and Berwickshire, all in the space of 70 years. That changes the perspective. Why shouldn't they have a common origin? Speculation is all we've got. Evidence remains just beyond reach...
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"But the identical spelling - Clazie - is now found in France, the Netherlands and Berwickshire, all in the space of 70 years. That changes the perspective?"
See, I guess we differ there as I'm not so convinced it does. It might just as easily be a reflection that this is generally the date when records start appearing, if you see what I mean. It could be the surname Clazie/Clasie was common in all these places long before it first appears in written records, but in most European countries it's a similar story, registers before the 18th century tend to be fragmentary if kept at all, and before the 16th century largely non existent. Of course it could have a common origin all the same, Norman or perhaps even further back and it's a Germanic patronym with related Frankish and Saxon forms. If it was in use as a forename too that might suggest the latter.
In regards Jon Clazie's 16 shillings, perhaps the drink was just a courtesy for the delivery man rather than the actual fee? Still according to the old money to new converter tool on Ancestry 16 shillings in 1665 is about equivalent to 65 pounds in today's money, which even at todays exhorbitant prices, would buy me a good 18 pints of my favourite tipple at my local watering hole, so it was a good drink all the same!
It's also worth bearing in mind he delivered the Bell 16 March 1665. The second Anglo-Dutch War had broken out 12 days earlier, and would last over two years until 31 July 1667. This was primarily a naval war, a series of pitched battles between the British and the Dutch at sea. This may have made it impossible for him to return if he had bought the bell over before hostilities broke out. Maybe after two years stranded in Berwick, he'd found a girl fallen in love and decided to stay put even when safe to return?..Oh well it's a pretty picture I paint, but could bare no relation to the truth. Well you did invite wild speculation at the start....hope I've delivered that at least!
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You’re right: I invited speculation. It helps keep the interest alive. But also leads to frustration, gnashing of teeth, when the truth can’t be known for sure.
The bell was made in Flanders, 1661, not delivered to Hutton until 1665. Why the delay? Maybe the Anglo-Dutch war you mentioned? Or maybe the bell sat in a warehouse, waiting until the good people of Hutton raised money to pay for it?
This bell was not unique. 50 or so Burgerhuys bells are scattered around Scotland. Perhaps bought in bulk by some kirk authority?
Jon Clazie was paid the princely sum of 16 shillings upon delivery. How many drinks did that buy in 1665? An online search yielded this calculation: "One shilling in 1660 had the purchasing power of about £6.55 today." If that is correct, he got £105 or $295. More than enough for a drink! Enough to cover a trip from Holland? Or from Edinburgh? We can't know for sure.
Few people could read and write in the 1600s, records were kept by the few literate ones, a priest perhaps, not the parties described in the record. Spelling uniformity might not mean what we think.
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I was under the impression the Bell was from Middleburg in Zeeland rather than the one in Flanders from your previous thread here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,573687.0.html
Certainly it's a strange coincidence the Clazie name first appears delivering a bell made in Zeeland, and the name, or similar, is linked with Zeeland in earlier records. The Anglo Dutch war breaking out at virtually same time would give a plausable reason for him not returning.
Here is the Great Yarmouth lists, published in Huguenot Society Proceedings Vol 5 No 3 1895, from a list of the 390 foreigners resident in Great Yarmouth, Norfolk in 1571:
A briefe declaration and certificate of all Strangers and Aliens which are dwellinge
YERMOUTH, within the burghe and libertie of Greate Yermouthe in the countye of Norfolk, made
the 12th daye of Maye, anno domini.i 1571, in the thirtene yere of the reigne of our
most gracious soueraigne Ladye, Quene Elizabeth:
46 Anthony Clase & Tankey his wif, fisherman, from Zealand, resident for one yere
48 Nicholas Clase & Margret his wif, fisherman, from ZeeIand, resident one monethe
52 Cornelis Clase, Katherine his wif & three children, and two men servants, one woman servant, merchante, from Zelande, resident for two yeres
61 John Clase, Nelky his wife & three children, plus one servant widow Herton Levers, a fisherman, from Zealande, resident for three yeres
Similar Stranger Lists were regularly drawn up in 16th century London, and the name also appears frequently there. The origin is not always given but when it is it is always the Netherlands:
1525
Thomas Clayse, stranger,
1541
John Clayse
Nycholas Clayse
1544
Nicholas Clayse
1547
Nicholas Clayse
1550
Willlhemson Claes, schoemaker, operating St Martyns int Castel.
1551
Garrett Clases, servant
Martyn Clays
1561
Jeronimus Claes
Jaspar Claes
1567
Derrick Clase, Duchman, serv to John Tawbote, new comer
1568
Elizabeth Clase, borne vnder the Busshop of Luke, and do go to the Englishe churche
Harry & Francis Claise, Duchmen; servantes with William Hopkins, gunner.
John Clayse, girdeler, borne in Hennaulde (Hanault), in Flanders, a denyson ; tennante to one Spencer,a cutler ; with Kychaell his wife, John, Sara, and Mary, his children
Henricke Clayse, denizen, and a silkewever, and Helyn his wif, bothe Duche; Mr Braunche ys there landlorde, and they goo to the Duche churche
1571
Cornells Clase, joyner, borne in Holland, haith byn here a quarter [of a year], and is a servant. Duch.
Peter Clayse, tooneman, of the age of 26 yeres, Hollander, haith bynne here 3 yere, and came to worke
John Classe, silkeweauer, and Mysaell his wife, borne in Flanders, have dwelt in the said
warde foure yeares
Elyzabeth Clase, of Fulkynburye, the wif of Jerom Clase.
Of course this also matches with the evidence of Dutch settlers by the same name at Colchester, Essex in same period. Obviously it was not an uncommon name in the Netherlands, and more than one family bought it to England in the 16th century.
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The spellings you cited are similar but are not known to have ever been used in Berwickshire. They are found in the Low Countries and in southern England.
My ancestor, George Clezie, was christened 27 Feb, 1787 at Hutton, Berwickshire, parents James Clezie and Helen Ker or Kerr, who married 20 Oct 1786 at Chirnside.
These contemporary records are from a notary’s office at Paris:
CLEZIÈ, Claude fourbisseur privilégié du roi x ROLLAND, Anne veuve, 20/05/1732
CLEZIE, Geneviève Emmanuelle x SORET, Pierre Etienne me-tonnelier, 22/06/1790, le mari défunt.
CLEZIE, Hélène Théodore x DEDOYARD, Henri Joseph compagnon orfèvre, 22/06/1790, épouse delaissée.
CLEZIE, Pierre Eustache me-fourbisseur x PARIGUET, Jeanne, 22/06/1790, tous deux défunts, parents des dames SORET et DEDOYARD.
Who were these French people? No known connection but they have my family name! Coincidence?
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Heiserca
Yes I'd been through your old posts and seen those they are interesting. Again though I wouldn't get overly hung up on spellings at that date. I think it's almost certain your George Clezie is a decendant of the existing Clazie/Clazy/Clasie family in Hutton which appears to have been there from at least 1665. A plausible scenario can be made to argue that family have Dutch origin, alternatively they could be a native English family, perhaps with far back Norman origin. But French? Well it does not appear very likely. I think either it is a coincidence, it's just a similar name, or alternatively the Dutch/English/French forms do all have same very distant origin. You can however fairly firmly rule out any Huguenot origin in the 17th or 18th century, for this family, in any case.
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Also in regard spelling
http://www.famillesparisiennes.org/patro/cl.html
On that same Notaries list one of those 'Clezie's' appears on a document the year earlier as 'Clesie':
CLESIE, Heleine Théodore x DEDOYARD, Henry Joseph compagnon orfèvre, 04/06/1789 , Succession d'Eustache Clésié, beau-père et père.
CLEZIE, Hélène Théodore x DEDOYARD, Henri Joseph compagnon orfèvre, 22/06/1790 , épouse delaissée.
This just further shows the 'z' and 's' was and to some extent still is fairly interchangeable in all written Western European languages.
These few instances do appear rare, I can't actually find any other examples of that name on any of the major French Genealogical sites, except those that lead back to Berwick! Since it is spelt with an accent in one instance it would probably have been pronounced quite different from 'Clazie' and I do wonder whether in fact it is just a rare variant spelling of ClOZIER/CLOUZIER which is much more numerous on the same list.
The same might be true for the islotaed example in south of France. I attempted to view the original at Aude departmental archive website but they have not yet put their registers online, though they are due later this year. I would suspect it might be a case that example is mis transcribed or a variant of a more usual name.
I would then question whether the surname truly does exist in France at all, I still think this is a red herring for your research.
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It is helpful to know that spelling fluidity was not purely a Scottish problem. Our European bretheren could be equally flexible in writing their names.
I tend to agree, that a Dutch connection is more likely than a French one for the Clazie name. In the absence of evidence, we are all reduced to merely giving opinions.
Some of the remaining questions may be eventually be answered, as more records appear online.
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The following may be of interest to people following this thread.
I've just received the latest journal of the Scottish Local History Forum, and it has an item about a new project to research the Flemings in Scotland. A few extracts -
"Some estimates suggest that up to a third of the current Scottish population may have Flemish ancestors ... Towards the end of the sixteenth century another wave of Flemish immigration to Scotland took place. The root cause of this was religious persecution. In the wake of the Reformation a number of Flemish Protestants left Flanders in the second half of the sixteenth century. This was followed, towards the end of the seventeenth century, by an inflow of Flemish Huguenots fleeing persecution by King Louis XIV of France, as a result of the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes.
The Flemish in Scotland were concentrated, for the most part, in the North and on the East Coast ...
John Irvine and Alex Fleming are planning to undertake a 'bottom up' study of the Flemish in Scotland drawing on local history and genealogical sources. ... In due course an international conference will be held in St. Andrews ... Articles for the Local History Forum journal and a book entitled Scotland and the Flemish People, prepared under the guidance of the Scottish Institute of Historical Research at St. Andrews, will be produced ..."
Local historians and genealogists are encouraged to join in and share any relevant research they have carried out.
Harry
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Excellent, Harry. I'll pass that news to a cousin, who uses the Clazey spelling. She is a teacher, plans to return to university next year for post-graduate studies. She may indeed be able to participate in the project you mentioned, as part of her thesis preparation.
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Quoting from the article -
"Any local historian wishing to take part in the project should contact John and Alex via Email at * and * respectively."
Harry
* email addresses removed in accordance with Rootschat policy
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I understand the Rootschat policy of not allowing private email addresses to be posted, and I have always adhered to it, but in this case I was passing on email addresses which the researchers in question have given to a publicly available history magazine, for publication, with the express intention of attracting emails from interested parties. Surely a bit different from inadvertently giving away a private email address!
Harry
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Hello to all CLAZY (etc.) researchers. I've just received my copy of the latest Borders Family History Society magazine (Issue no.80, October 2012) and one of the articles mentions a CLAZY. I quote ..
" ... there was in Selkirk at that time a remarkable dominie, Dr. Clazy. His reputation was such that my grandfather, Andrew Haddon, was sent from Hawick to Selkirk to board at Dr. Clazy's school. This school was on the site of the present Selkirk High School ..."
Harry
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Thank you for that historical snippet, Harry. Does the article mention the dates when his grandfather was at Selkirk? Probably “Dr. Clazy” was John Clezy, born 1790 at Woolwich, who was the rector of Selkirk Grammar School from 1825-37, then emigrated in 1849 to South Australia.
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There are no dates in the article, but reading between the lines it looks to me as if you have got the right period and the right Dr. Clazy/Clezy.
Harry
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John Clezy / Dr. Clazy seems to have preferred the Clezy spelling, still used by his descendants in Australia. My own ancestors preferred Clezie, brought it to Canada & the U.S. Other cousins chose Clazey, Clazie and Clazy. How was the name actually pronounced in Old Berwickshire?
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Latest Clazie news: more records of the name in France, in modern times!
Geneviève Clezy born 31 Jan 1899 at Ay, Marne, France; parents not named.
Rosalie Marie Clezié and Mathieu Fourgette, parents of the bride at a wedding, May 1901 at St-Maur, Marne, France.
In the U.K. the accented é disappeared and spelling variations developped: Clazey, Clazie, Clazy, Clezie, Clezy.
We now have French records of the name from 1567 to 1901 and British records from 1665 to present. The two grew up together, on both sides of the Channel.