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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Worcestershire => Topic started by: Trees on Wednesday 22 August 12 11:45 BST (UK)
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We have so many pubs connected to our tree I thought I knew the reasoning behind all the names and signs until yesterday when I found The three crowns and sugar loaf.
Yes I know there is a pub still open with the name in Kidderminster but it looks fairly modern and I think has taken the name from the one on my tree which is there in 1835 when my "ancestor" is listed in Pigots' directory.
I have found a reference to a pub in London with three sugar loaves and a crown in that case it was in the district of sugar refineries
My questions are
Why Three crowns? I can only think of 1936 when we had 3 monarchs in one year and that is well after the pub was named.
Secondly was there any sugar refining in Kidderminster or more precisely Franch district ?
Why would the Crowns and sugar loaf be mentioned together?
Was there a local coat of arms with three crowns connected perhaps to Franch Hall?
Does anyone know the history of the pub? Particularly how old was the original one/
A lot to ask I know but these pub names often tell us a lot about local history and I am curious.
I will be grateful for any help answering the above questions
Cheers
Trees
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If you download the PDF file from the website it tells you the history of the pub and how it got it's name....?
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=three%20crowns%20and%20sugarloaf&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CGoQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kidcivicsoc.org.uk%2FDownloads%2Fthreecrownsandsugarloaf_hkp098.pdf&ei=hr00UMLPNMP80QXymYHgBQ&usg=AFQjCNEV5u3nNIZdlO7PfPzco0SswLTu8A
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Brilliant many thanks now how did I fail to find that? So it was in the end a religious joke what a great story.
:)Trees
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Hi Trees
Im on holiday in WOR so cant respond to this request straight away - however I have a book at home listing all Kidderminster pubs, when they opened & closed etc which I will gladly look at for you regarding the 3 Crowns & Sugarloaf if its any help to you
All the very best
Phil
Weston=super-Mare
ps can you give me a reminder in about 5 weeks time please as I aint got the best of memories :)
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Thanks Phil the history link The Mc posted is great but doesn't mention Ann Giles who was there 1835 1842 at least I wonder if her late husband had been the landlord first I'd be grateful if you have a quick look to see if there is any mention of them when you get back. Have you been to the Hive yet? is it easy to use?
H.
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Hi Trees
My book wont give you the landlords names onl when the pub opened, where exactly it is/was & when it closed etc. I have seen a 3 volume set of large books (in a charity shop in Kidderminster)on pubs but they are to much for me to carry
All the very best
Phil
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Thanks Phil I wonder if its available on the inter library loan system can you remember the title? How long ago did you see the books for sale I wonder if its worth asking the shop if its still available
I think the eaiest thing will be a trip to Oxford Ro to look for the licences :)
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Hi Trees
I saw these books last Thursday & will have a look in the shop today as they may still be there - trouble is they are 3 large volumes & the postage would be very expensive
All the very best
Phil
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Hi Trees
Since my last posting to you Ive had my dinner then looked in 3 charity (as the books were in one of them) Im sorry to say that there is now no sign of them & I bet someone researching pubs snapped them up mores the pity
All the very best
Phil
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Hi Trees
I just had another walk round town & located those books & paid for them but cant collect them for about 3 weeks as they are part of a window display & I may not be abl to collect them until Christmastime as Im on holiday in the county of my birth at the moment
All the very best
Phil
ps they cost me the massive sum of 99p each so I dint have the heart to take the change
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Hi Trees
Just to keep you up toi date with those books on Licenced Houses by Caxton Press - I was able to collect them today but am still in town & have not had chance to look at them yet
All the very best
Phil
ps I was so glad to get my hands on them that I gave a further donatioon to the charity
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Hi Trees
I shot myself in the foot with those books as I thought/hoped that the title "Licenced Houses & their Management" may have meant a large list of pubs & some of their managers but instead they gave me all the info I needed to run a pub or hotel lol.
Now down to business - I looked at a bookin Kidderminster library (the same as the one I have) titled "Kidderminster since 1800" as I knew there would be some info on the Three Crowns & Sugar Loaf in that - unfortunately this is all it gives : Location - Franche, Kidderminster. Date first mentioned 1840. Date of closure - this pub is still open & its address (as in the phone book) is 1 Wolverley Rd, Kidderminster phone number (01562) 824783. I wondered if they may have some more info on the pub if you got in touch with the management directly
Sorry that this is the best I could do for you
All the very best
Phil
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Oh dear poor Phil I can see you lugging those volumes down to the nearest charity shop again so sorry if you got them specifically to help me. I know theold Three Crowns and a Sugar Loaf was demolished in 1977 so I doubt if the present landlord will be able to add much for us but I will drop him an e mail just in case.
Thank you so much for trying and for going the extra mile :) :)
Trees
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Hi Trees
One of the cousins that Im staying with feels sure that they knocked the old Three Crowns & Sugar Loaf down for road widening & then rebuilt it a bit farther back so if they had any archives of any sort I expect that they may still be in the possetion of the pub or group that it belongs to.
Dont wory I didnt buy those books on your account as several of my lot were publicans - they kept the Mitre Oak & the Admiral Rodney at Crossway Green & Martley respectivly
Ive always been interested in pubs even though Im as good as tea total lol
All the very best
Phil
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Same here no publican would make a living from the trees family but we have well over a hundred on the tree now
I think by the time it got to our generation the blood could take no more alcohol ;D may be we're all well preserved or pickled by now and don't need topping up ;D ;D
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If it is of any use, yes the old 3 Crowns was demolished and one of these new Bungalow type things were built.
I lived 2 doors down for 3 years in the 80's.
It was run by Banks's Brewery for years. They, if you can find an address may be able to help.
Hope this helps. Enots.
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Great Enots. yes thank you that is useful most breweries have records of their houses so as long as the old one was with the same brewery we could strike lucky
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Hello again,
There is a man who could help you.
He gives Walks and Talks on Franche and it's buildings.
His name is Don Gilbert of Kidderminster Archaeologigal and History Society/
If you Google his name /society you may find an Email address to contact him and ask him about your Pub quest.
I would like to find out more about the "Pied Bull" in Mill St, Kidderminster and if i find an address i will ask him.
Regars from Enots.
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Even better thank you Enots.
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When i put 3crowns and sugarloaf kidderminster into Google. the 3rd article is by John Combe and Don gilbert.
Worth taking alook for it's history, It's in PDF.
A great picture also. Fascinating. Enots.
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Yes thats the link Mc gave us reply 1 it really is an interesting account everything except a list of publicans My ancestor was Land lady now I want to see if her husband was landlord before she was widowed and how long the family were there. I wonder how busy that cross road was in the 1830s and how much trade was generated by travellers along the road.
I do like pub histories you never know what you will turn up I've got everything from brawls and murder to one being run by a policeman and another being the registrar of BMDs so you could conveniently wet the baby's head or hold a wake while you registered the event :) Now I go regularly to cast my vote in the local so many a politician has been elected by a few drunken voters :)
Trees
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Hi Trees
I know of another bloke that may well be able to help you & he is the patron of the BMSGH - professor Carl Chin, he eats sleeps drings & lives Birmingham but knows a hell of a lot about WOR as well
Good luck
All the very best
Phil
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Hi Trees
Ive just been talking to a librarian in Kidder library & she has found that there is a book in their possesion about the history of old kidder pubs - the downside is that she cant find it but has taken my name & phone number(where Im staying) & well have a good look today & ring me about the book. I will have to look at this book at the library as it cant be taken out
All the very best
Phil
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Hi Trees
Forgot to say that they also have photos of old pubs but I dont know if the 3 Crowns is among them as Ive not looked yet
All the very best
Phil
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Hi Trees
Im in Kiddy library again & that book they couldnt find on Thurs is still an elusive sod & they wonder if it has somehow found its way into the university collection at the Hive (I will check this out on Tuesday). While I was in Kiddy today (SAT) I found a book in the reference section that may be of use to you if you apply for it on inter library loan to look at in your local library's reference section - its title is "The History of Franche" by C. C. Nickson & contains thoughts & memories of old Franche as well as some Local Newspaper Cuttings - this book has no index but I did scan the first few pages & there are quite a few references to the 3 Crowns.
This books catalogue number is 942.441 at Kidderminster
All the very best
Phil
ps they have 2 volumes of this book so there will be no problem getting hold of one of them
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Phil.
Thank you for this info.
I am going to order the book to come to Malvern Library I already have what i want on the 3 Crowns and would like to find out more on the Pied Bull in Mill St, Kidderminster.
i spent most of my young life between Franche and Wolverley and the book you mention seems just up my Street.
Enots.
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Hi Nots
Do you by any chance have any interest in Cookley as I have a lot of books on that place as my late Dad's father was the head gardener at Westley Court - if you know anything about Cookley you will know about Westley Court
All the very best
Phil
ps dont forget that I sent the info on Franche for Trees attention so dont go queering the pitch ;D
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My school friends lived in Cookley and i worked at Steel Stampings 1967-1970. Drank at the Rock Tavern !!
Yes i know Westley Court. After school (Sion Hill) we used to go there, well in the grounds and surrounding areas.
I used the Tow Path on the Canal to get to Cookley.
Enots.
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Hi Nots
Were getting a bit close you know, you went to school at Sion Hill, I uesd to live in Wolverhampton Rd & went to school at the Sladen. After school I worked with my late Dad at one of our grocery shops (this one was in Stourbridge Rd) & we had a lot of customers that lived in Sion Hill.
Aint it a small world
All the very best
Phil
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Just back from London Many thanks Phil I am sure Enots and I will both benefit from that great find go ahead and order it up Enots I don't mind waiting till you finish with it I have so much to get on with just give me a yell when you return it so I 'll jump in quickly after you :) :)
It seems you two have found some common ground good old Rootschat best site going in my opinion no airs and graces and blowing of its own trumpet just great friends all going the extra mile for each other
I lift a glass in each of my antique Inns to Rootschatters everwhere
Cheers
Trees
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Hi Trees
I will also raise an imaginary glass in the Mitre Oak & the Admiral Rodney for the same reason as you
All the very best
Phil
returning home on Monday after a long holiday in WOR
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Just had a contact from another researcher on this topic
Now know Thomas GILES died in 1839 Age 58 buried 13 Oct 1839 KIDDERMINSTER St MARY
Record set National Burial Index for England & Wales
so it looks like he did move from Chaddesley Corbett where he was a butcher in 1838 ) there was a court case where someone killed one of his sheep in Chaddesley Corbet in 1838 the chap was sentenced to death!) So maybe he was the publican for a short time and Ann nee Wood took over from him
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If you download the PDF file from the website it tells you the history of the pub and how it got it's name....?
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=three%20crowns%20and%20sugarloaf&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CGoQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kidcivicsoc.org.uk%2FDownloads%2Fthreecrownsandsugarloaf_hkp098.pdf&ei=hr00UMLPNMP80QXymYHgBQ&usg=AFQjCNEV5u3nNIZdlO7PfPzco0SswLTu8A
This link no longer seems to work. Don't suppose anyone downloaded it when it did? and would be willing to share it. My ancestor is listed as the publican in 1841. Thanks
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Annoying I have had to remove it from my web site too the only one I can find to replace it is a photo of the pub http://www.closedpubs.co.uk/worcestershire/kidderminster_threecrownssugarloaf.html