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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: AirtinHame on Thursday 23 August 12 12:34 BST (UK)
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While looking for my Pentland family in Co. Down I came across this death record:
Downpatrick Deaths1864;V11 p303
Patterson James Pentland age 0
The IGI does not record a matching birth, Ancestry Ireland seem not to have head of him and Emerald Ancestor is also silent on his short life. Hi forename has me intrigued so I wondered whether any Pentland researcher out there can shed light. Alternatively, short of buying the birth certificate any ideas on how to identify his parents(s) would be very welcome.
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Age '0' in death index means that he was less than a year old, so he could have been born before the start of birth registration in 1864.
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That did occur to me, however, the Pentland family were protestants and I understood birth registration started for them in 1845, or am I confused?
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I understand your confusion but isn't there something about Presbyterians as well?
Curiously, I've had similar problems with Downpatrick but I suspect the registration area includes East Belfast. Your infant death may be related to William Pentland, son of William Pentland and Jane Beattie who was born in that area in 1868. I haven't been able to find his parent's marriage either and as you say the Pentlands were protestants an I thought that menat they were recording marriages from 1845.
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Registration of births, deaths and Catholic marriages started in 1864. Registration of non-Catholic marriages only in 1845.
Added- Downpatrick is in the Poor Law Union and Registration District of Downpatrick. Not that close to Belfast.
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one of his parents may be included on the death cert as informant - see :
Details included on a Death Cert (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433043.0.html)
Shane
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There are 3 male Patterson births registered in Downpatrick in 1864 (Vol 11, page 452, Vol 11, page 456 & Vol 16, page 479). The births were registered with no forename, as was common at that era. Any of them might be the James Pentland Patterson whose 1864 death you have found.
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Hi,
I have assumed that Pentland was the surname!
Regards
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Hi,
I have assumed that Pentland was the surname!
So did I to begin with, but when you check the deaths index, Pentland is the middle name. Patterson is the surname.
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I completely understand the confusion since this link https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRGJ-KYM takes you to an entry for Patterson James Pentland and this one https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRGJ-GY3 to an entry for James Pentland Patterson but both quote the same volume and page number - not he first time I've spotted inaccurate information in the IGI!
My guess is that the former is correct since, having now checked my records, I see John Pentland and Ann Patterson had two recorded children; Anna Bella in 1866 and an un-named child in 1864.
I am somewhat surprised to hear, however, that it was common practice to register un-named children having believed previously that they were children who had died before baptism and where the birth and death had been registered simultaneously. Does anyone have evidence go support either view?
I'm also puzzled by the comment that Downpatrick is in the PLU of Downpatrick "Not that close to Belfast". This death was surely registered in the registration district of Downpatrick and that, as I think this site http://www.thecore.com/seanruad demonstrates runs all the way to East Belfast but then maybe my Northern Ireland geography is not as expert as others so please correct me if I have this wrong.
All of that said I am still trying to locate the parents of Ann Patterson's husband who are as elusive as Jane Beattie's and any help would be very welcome.
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Downpatrick PLU covers a wide area approximately from Newcastle/Ardglass along the south coast up to Ballynahinch/Killlinchy- north of that would be Saintfield (Lisburn PLU) and Comber/Ballygowan (Newtownards PLU).
Both children of John Pentland and Ann Patterson (1864 male and 1866 Anna Bella) are listed in IGI as in Ballynahinch (likely the sub-registration district).
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Don't know if it has any relevance to your line but a Jack Pentland taught Geography at Banbridge Academy 1950s - 1970s. Think he was also vice - principal, and jointly ran "the Tuck Shop". He suffered from a "frozen shoulder" and a distinctive sense of humour.
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Ever little piece of information is valuable Mattfrombann, thank you. This indicates there are still Pentlands in the area and John is an old Pentland name in Co Down, who knows he may be a descendant of the early Pentlands in Ireland.
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I have a history of the Academy in front of me. Jack Pentland joined the staff in 1945 so you just might find his birth on GRONI website (I think there is a 100 year cut off). There is also mention of an Ida Pentland in a production of "MacBeth" in 1949 which indicates she was a pupil, but no indication of any relationship to Jack. Jack I think died not that long after I finished schooling. I think I saw an obituary for him somewhere but after all these years no idea where.
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Just demonstrates my comment. I think they are brother and sister. Jack Pentland 1919 - 1078 and Aida Pentland, married to Robert Kelly dies in Newry 2002, born 1934, both Tullylish. Their parents were George Henry Pentland and Isa Massey. Thanks for the additional background.
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Out of interest I checked the Index to OS Memoirs of Ireland to see if any Pentlands mentioned. Nothing for Down , but two for Monaghan - "Mr" in Inniskeen, and Killanny. I also have a copy of Bassett's directory for Down of 1886 but so far seen nothing in the (multiple) indexes. BUT since it is a change to be looking for a different rare surname.(and a rather dreich Sunday).....
Belfast Newsletter May 24th 1939. Advert re Apartments to let Downpatrick , Mrs D Pentland
Northern Whig Dec 17 1957. Co Op travel Service, Belfast Branch, Mr Wesley Pentland, Lurgan
Londonderry Sentinel 3 Dec 1957, Rev R J Pentland , (second) son of late Mr and Mrs J Pentland , Ballykeely Holywood (married Miss A McFarland Aug 1951), (Rev had a brother H, B.A,)
Belfast Newsletter 10 Dec 1956, Mr T Pentland, architect, Holywood
Portadown Times 5 Sept 1954 Miss E L Pentland, Gliford Town Group
Portadown Times 9 April 1954 Jack Pentland, Gilford
Ballymena Weekly Telegraph 5 Feb 1954 Sam Pentland Holywood, ploughing champion
Larne Times Feb 14 1952 Sam Pentland ploughing champion Dromara
Northern Whig April 23 1951 John Pentland Gilford, soloist
Newsletter Nov 1 1947 Obituary of John Stewart Pentland originally of Saintfield Co Down, Wife formerly Jean Steele , four children. buried Crossgar
Newsletter March 14 1942. Death of Jane wife of John Pentland Ballykeel Holywood
Newsletter Oct 7th 1941. Death of Susan M widow of Daniel Pentland Ballyhossett Downpatrick
Newsletter April 8 1941. Death (at her husband's residence) 1 Windsor Bungalows Newry, Anne Jane wife of William John Pentland (who appears to be in Canada at the time)
And so on and so on.......
The main concentration of Pentlands was by far in Portadown, which is actually Co Armagh, and there are innumerable deaths, marriages and general goings on in the Portadown Times
. There were other families in Belfast and Whitehead
You can find all this in the British Newspaper Online Archive
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Sadly one source is no longer currently available to us
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/
if you go to the website, you will become deeply worried we might not see it again read the rootsweb explanation for sad happenings with frozen sites being created on some., etc
Some Pentlands recorded in the The Tithe Applotment Books 1823 -1837 raised in order to determine the amount which occupiers of agricultural holdings over one acre should pay in tithes to the Church of Ireland (the main Protestant church and the church established by the State until its dis-establishment in 1871). it is deemed to be incomplete
The original records are divided between Northern Ireland 6 counties and the Republic of Ireland 26 counties
Northern Ireland originals in PRONI Belfast, these names taken from the individual parish index made by the Irish Genealogy Hub.
arranged by county, then by civil parish
Pentland, Alexr. Townland: Crossmecaghley Year: 1834 Seagoe Armagh
Pentland, Alexr. Townland: Drumgor Year: 1834 Seagoe Armagh
Pentland, Jno., Jr. Townland: Ballyhannon Year: 1834 Seagoe Armagh
Pentland, John Townland: Ballymecrandle Year: 1834 Seagoe Armagh
Pentland, John Townland: Crossmecaghley Year: 1834 Seagoe Armagh
Pentland, John, Sr. Townland: Ballyhannon Year: 1834 Seagoe Armagh
Pentland, Geo. Townland: Legahorry Year: 1833 Shankill Armagh
Pentland, John Townland: Augnacloy Year: 1833 Shankill Armagh
Pentland, John Townland: Lurgan Town Year: 1833 Shankill Armagh
Pentland, John Townland: Shankill Glebe Year: 1833 Shankill Armagh
Pentland, George Townland: Derrykeevan Year: 1834 Tartaraghan Armagh
Pentland, Henry Townland: Ballygarvue Year: 1834 Inishargy Down
Pentland, John Townland: Clontinaglare Year: 1833 Kilmore Down
Pentland, Geo. Townland: Legahorry Year: 1833 Shankill Down
Pentland, John Townland: Augnacloy Year: 1833 Shankill Down
Pentland, John Townland: Lurgan Town Year: 1833 Shankill Down
Pentland, John Townland: Shankill Glebe Year: 1833 Shankill Down
Pentland, Edward Townland: Drummarin Year: 1827 Tullylish Down
Pentland, Edward Townland: Drummarin Year: 1834 Tullylish Down
Pentland, John Townland: Mullabrack Year: 1827 Tullylish Down
Pentland, John Townland: Mullabrack Year: 1834 Tullylish Down
The Republic of Ireland the original books for the 26 COUNTIES are preserved the NA Dublin with their own index. which is more than an inex, try any entry and you will fins a liitle more information, often the line in the original book, sometimes more seehttp://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/search/tab/home.jsp
Pentland, William Ross Killeagh Cork 1833
Pentland, Chas Sandymount Donnybrook Dublin 1824
Pentland, Clane Clane Kildare 1834
Pentland, Francis Loughanure Commons Clane Kildare 1834
Pentland, Henry Tullamore Kilbride King's
Pentland, Geo Priorstown Drumshallon Louth 1833
Pentland, George Milltown TermonfeckinLouth 1830
Pentland, Stephen Boyerstown Ardbraccan Meath 1825
Pentland, Stephen Boyerstown Ardbraccan Meath 1825
Pentland, George Athboy Athboy Meath 1833
Pentland, G H Great Donnecarney Colp Meath 1833
Pentland, George H Bettystown Colp Meath 1833
Pentland, Henry Tullamore Kilbride Meath 1825
Pentland, Stephen Novan Commons Navan Meath
Pentland, Patrick Novan Commons Navan Meath
Pentland, Stephen Robinrath Navan Meath
Pentland, Thos Rolinrath Navan Meath
Pentland, George Legavoren St Mary's Drogheda Meath 1834
Pentland, Killineer St Peter's Athlone Roscommon 1833
Pentland, Francis Rathmacknee Rathmacknee Wexford
have run out of time, i didnt try raymonds county down website for you
good luck onwards
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By random chance I found some newspaper articles mentioning Pentlands in court in Banbridge, in 1871 , 1881, and 1907.
In the first two (1871) a George Pentland was charged with altering a weigh ticket. Also mentioned is Joseph Pentland but the relationship is not clear. This George was illiterate. Source :- Downpatrick Recorder March 11th (sent for trial), and Northern Whig July 25 same year (found guilty).
In 1907 there were elections in West Down and unsurprisingly things got a bit out of hand afterwards resulting in a bit of an affray in the streets of Banbridge. One brawler was arrested and gave his name as George Pentland. In the Petty Sessions it quickly became apparent that he wasn't the real George Pentland, who had turned up in confusion with his solicitor in tow. Not very amused constable. Case dismissed. Interestingly George is referred to as "of Rathfriland St" which is just around the corner from where I grew up at the foot of "The Cut". Source:- Irish News and Belfast Morning News Sept 14.
A William Pentland of Ballylenaghan Co Down was the victim of a sheep theft in 1881. Oddly he gave the accused a good character reference and the miscreant, who denied the actual theft, was jailed for six months. Source:- Newry Reporter Dec 6th.
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Ros Davies Co Down website is back on line only in an archived state http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com:80/~rosdavies/
which has well over 50 entries see Pant...Pend... and Pent...
other records
1660s ulster hearth money rolls, see http://www.billmacafee.com
Pentland none found
Flax Growers in Co Down see http://www.failteromhat.com/flax/down.php
Pentland none found
Tithes Applotment Books 1823-1837 i omitted
Pentleton, Ed. Townland: Drumarrin Year: 1834 Tullylish Down
Pentleton, Edwd. Townland: Drumarrin Year: 1834 Tullylish Down
Griffiths Valuation 1863 for Co Down has just two Donaghadee as you know
the Tullylish Pentlands listed in TAB above didn’t disappear, they are listed under Pendleton
Good luck in tidying up your remaining bricks
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While looking for my Pentland family in Co. Down I came across this death record:
Downpatrick Deaths1864;V11 p303
Patterson James Pentland age 0
The IGI does not record a matching birth, Ancestry Ireland seem not to have head of him and Emerald Ancestor is also silent on his short life. Hi forename has me intrigued so I wondered whether any Pentland researcher out there can shed light. Alternatively, short of buying the birth certificate any ideas on how to identify his parents(s) would be very welcome.
I have birth record for boy Pentland, b. 3 July 1864, in Downpatrick, son of John Pentland married to Ann Patterson,
If he died in 1864, before turning 1, his age would be 0.