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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: rachellowe88 on Thursday 23 August 12 17:59 BST (UK)
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My name is Rachel Lowe and i am looking for the parents of a john toman born 1834 in ireland, county down.
he married a alic jane cunningham also born in ireland.
John tomans parents are a felix toman ( occupation:weaver) and Rose( surname unknown) they were both born in ireland. we believe that felix and rose were born around 1808 give or take a few years, but this is a guess.
the names felix and rose are correct because they appear on the 1851 marriage certificate and parish record for the marriage of john toman to alice jane cunningham in liverpool.
Now the two place names that have come up when talk about the tomans is the names rafrilland and downpatrick although i do not know what these two place name reference to.
i am wanting to find out about any siblings of john toman also as we have only ever known of john toman and would be nice to find out if he had an brothers and sisters.
if anyone could help with any of this i would be extremely grateful as i hwant to know more about my irish relatives/ancestors and i have hit a brick wall with this and don't know how to move foward.
thanks
rachel lowe
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Hi Rachel,
While Toman is not a rare surname - I think combine it with the christian name Felix it makes it rarer.
The free index doesn't show a John born to a Felix Toman but it does show that between 1820 and 1840 there were 8 children baptised to a Felix Toman in County Down - no guarantees tho that it's the same family.
There was a Felix Toman born in 1870 to a Denis Toman
felix toman 1870 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPJ7-VB3)
This is him in 1911
felix toman 1911 Irish Census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Seaforde/Dunturk/236709/)
could be related somehow further down the line ???
Also the surname Toman is on the Griffiths Valuation for Rathfryland but no Felix though, of course he may have passed away by this time.
toman rathfryland (http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths/down/drumgath.htm)
Tara
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Did your Toman's go to Durham by any chance ?
Just saw some mentions of Toman's from Rathfriland and Durham.
rose toman census (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWHZ-C6W)
a rose toman birth rathfriland (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5K9-ZZ6)
Tara
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Hello Rachel,
County Down surnames Toa-Ton, just scroll down to Toman family name
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0qdm/
Rathfriland Tomans as you will see are noted alongside Drumgath Parish and below is the Griffiths Valuation results for Tomans of Drumgath Parish.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0qdn/
Irish place names are subject to change and what is detailed as Rathfriland may be Rathfryland Town. As with most records people tended to declare their place of origin as the nearest town of size which may have been miles away or the parish they were from.
I trust the above will be of some help.
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Hello again Rachel.
To the credit of Ros Davis his Co Down site is like a one stop shop for info. You may wish to look at his resource/site notes/codes if you wish to look into the family further for records that may be available.
I should have included his notes on Drumgath Parish http://www.rootschat.com/links/0qe2/
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Hi tara thanks for your reply to my post. i can't tell you to be honest if they went to durham, there could be a possibility and i don't know where rose was born. As mentioned in my first post i think they were born around 1800-1810 as their son John toman was born in 1834 and i know john toman came over to liverpool and married a alice jane cunningham in liverpool that same year. I am also looking for alice jane cunninghams parents aswell.
samuel cunningham is alice jane cunninghams father and he was a general dealer/nail maker and was born around1811 give or take a few year.s her mother was also called alice (surname unknown.) i know they came from ireland maybe county downs area alice jane cunningham born 1838 died 1882 had 3 siblings a ann born 1832 a eliza born 1836 and a john born 1838.
Back to john toman i know he was a tailor in ireland before he came over to liverpool in 1851 where he became a licensed victualer to a number of pub over a number years.
whats the link for the free index so i can have a look at who the eight children are. do you think that john toman could have had a variation to his name thats why it doesnt show up as having a john toman born to a felix.
Hopefully if i do find out where my tomans came from in ireland i would eventually love to go over to ireland, but i dont know for definate where abouts they came from.
ido know that the tomans are commonly known in a few counties. but any help is appreciated.
thanks again.
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Hi Rachel,
I think Padraig has given you some great leads there !
The site that I mentioned is
http://www.rootsireland.ie/
It's a pay per view site which also gives you a few 'free searches' but only gives you the transcriptions of the church records when you pay.
The problem with the Felix that I found was that there was no match to a wife called Rose either - so either it's a different family altogether or maybe the mother's name on your church record is incorrect ???
While ifhf is a great site it doesn't have ALL the old records. You would need to know exactly which parish John was born in to then see if records still exist for that church.
There was a James listed as born to a Felix, and then I saw a James marrying with a father called Felix.
I saw this James who was a weaver too but at this stage there is no way to know if it's the same chap.
james toman 1901 Irish Census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Tullylish/Bleary/1243997/)
BTW What religion was John - this might help narrow down a search !
The Toman's in Durham that I mentioned would have been later generations but I mentioned it as sometimes families moved to the same areas, so have you checked in the areas where John and Alice were living to see if there were other Toman's nearby ?
Tara
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UPDATED INFORMATION:
i have looked at john toman's death certificate and also his marriage certificate and when now hen using the year of marriage and his age his birth year actually comes to 1827
but when looking at the year of death and his age at death his year of birth comes to 1833
now it gets confusing because in the 1881 england census in liverpool john tomans birth year comes to 1834
in the 1891 census john tomans birth year comes to 1833
In reply to tara
i think he may of been catholic .
i know felix and rose stayed in ireland when john toman left for liverpool in 1851.
i have had a look on the rootsireland website and i have found a john toman born to a felix toman but his birth year is 1812. I dont know where to look now. as i've tried everything .but i'll keep trying.
I thought that maybe felix and rose came over with john to liverpool in 1851, like alice jane cunningham and her parents all came over with her siblings. but i've not been able to find a felix and rose with john in liverpool together.
thanks
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Hello Rachel,
I'm sorry you didn't find my links to be of help, but you may be able to clarify one thing.
Felix Toman appear in the UK records both in the Liverpool and Cumberland/Durham area which with the Irish practice of naming their children may suggest a common heritage. There are only sparse details of a Felix in Ireland but one which I had hoped you may have picked up on is that in addition to a John being born to a Felix there is also a Bernard born to a Felix Toman which is detailed at Ancestry Ireland Birth/Baptisms 1620-1911.
There may be no connection but as a Bernard is detailed on my first link for Rathfriland, a location which you detailed in your first post . Is there a connection?
You state your John became a licensed victualer at some point as was Bernard a spirit and port dealer in 1846.
Did they both learn the trade from a common father?
As you are keen to establish family links to your John, a link to this Bernard may unravel a little more about the mysterious Felix.
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hi thanks for your reply Padraig3 in answer to your latest post
i have had a look at the bernard toman and the felix toman to a felix toman born of the same father and mother a margaret. Only problem with that is the name that is written on the marriage certificate is Rose ( i know no other name for his wife) and also the years they were born in this searches is to late. The birth year range for john toman is between 1827 upto 1835 ( as his birth year varies on census/marriage and death records)
with the licensed victualer occupation of john toman. He wasnt always a licensed victualer when he lived in ireland he was a tailor and when he came over to liverpool he became a licensed victualer.
i dont think there is a connection with the bernard .
i do know that felix must be the right name for john tomans father as john toman had a sone called felix who died as a infant. And felix isnt a name i would of thought people would normally choose as a child name. only this would have been chosen if the name was in the family before.
below is a census search done for 1881 census and it is for the john toman in ireland other relatives of the tomans.
relation Mary Mc Conville F 63 Ireland
relation Sarah A Quinn F 73 Ireland
although i don't know what relation they are to the tomans if they are relatives from the cunninghams or the tomans.
* Moderator Note: cut & paste LDS census details removed in accordance with Rootschat policy.
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Hi Rachel,
Have checked RD site for possible Tonam/McConville/Quinn connection without results.
There is an email contact on the site which is still being updated, so is current,
so nothing ventured nothing gained.
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just an update on info
thanks to the Irish name tradition sent by Padraig3 i have looked at the information i do have and believe that the Irish naming tradition was used by john toman . as john toman named his son felix toman (First son after father's father) and felix was john toman's father so i would be thinking that felix's father was named john Toman.
thanks again for all your help so far
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Hi my Tomans are from Loughinisland Co Down we have a Felix married Mary with a son John there are at least another 5 children in this family
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This is an old thread and is unlikely to receive a reply at this point, I know, and I'm sorry to say I don't have direct info on the original request. Instead, I'll be one of those people that joins on to ask a related question because info is sparse. But it might be somewhat related...
I'm looking for more information about a James Toman (b 1823 in Ireland according to Scottish records) that moved to Ayreshire, Scotland. He was married to Elizabeth Cunningham (also possibly of Ireland, though uncertain). They had 7 children in Scotland, and the names are sure to be familial: John, Francies/Francis, Elizabeth, James, Catherine, Euphemia and Felix (b 1861). I've been unable to find out if/when they emigrated from Ireland to Scotland, or if, in fact, they were from Co. Down - though it seems likely given the geography etc.
I've also found reference to a Mary Toman, b 1789 in Ireland in the 1871 Scotland Census (and nowhere else yet from the Scotland side), but have no idea what relation she is to James Toman, above.
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With the help of an outside researcher in Scotland, I was able to definitively find the following regarding my question in the post above:
In 1855 in Scotland:
James Toman was age 28 and a miner. Born Lochenisle, Downpatrick, Ireland. He married Elizabeth Cunningham in Ayr in 1850 and had 3 boys living in 1855 and 4 children by former marriage. James could not write.
Elizabeth Cunningham was 29 born County Down, Ireland
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With the help of an outside researcher in Scotland, I was able to definitively find the following regarding my question in the post above:
In 1855 in Scotland:
James Toman was age 28 and a miner. Born Lochenisle, Downpatrick, Ireland. He married Elizabeth Cunningham in Ayr in 1850 and had 3 boys living in 1855 and 4 children by former marriage. James could not write.
Elizabeth Cunningham was 29 born County Down, Ireland
I suspect James' birthplace would have been Loughanisland Civil Parish- just put Toman in as 'family name' and see how many as head of household in Griffith's-
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch
If they were Catholic- Loughanisland is also the name of an R.C. Parish- not surehow legible the registers are but they start early 1800s!
http://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0435