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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Jeanette H on Thursday 26 May 05 12:32 BST (UK)
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Hello to all RootsChat Members,
I have recently come across some information stating that the 'Huguenots', left France between the years of 1685-1760, travelling to various countries including England.
QUESTION: Is it possible that they could also have settled in Scotland? Possibly changing their names.
Is anyone aware of this actually having taken place, and if so what counties of Scotland would most likely have been their destination?
Jeanette H.
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Found this:
1609 Group of Flemish Huguenots settled in Canongate, Scotland.
and
By 1707 400 refugee Huguenot families had settled in Scotland. Helped establish the Scottish weaving trade.
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Hello Scotmum,
That certainly is very interesting information, that will come in handy when I try to analyse if there is any 'Huguenot' connections.
As I have BROWNs & CAMPBELLs in Ayrshire and Wigtownshire, also TURNBULLs in Roxburghshire (a Merchant in Hawick, do not know what he traded in). The mystery is that we cannot find their births, marriages and deaths.
Thank you for your reply,
Jeanette H.
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How very interesting! I live in Ulster CO, NY, and the Huguenots settled in New Paltz about the same time.
As a member of a local historical society, I am excited to tie local history to Scottish.
Peigi
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I have found out that some of my ancestors came from France and settled in Lanarkshire sometime after 1760. I havnt found out as yet if they were Huguenots though.
Linda.
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the figures concerning the 1609 settlement and 1707 families comes from
http://www.pierrechastain.com/timeline.htm.
There are also "stories" of Flemish families settling in Pollokshaws (which would have then been in Renfrewshire). Indeed one local legend has it that that the Flemish settlers were the main point of reference when speaking about "the queer folk o' the 'shaws"
The first paper mill in Glasgow is reputed to have been founded by a Huguenot refugee.
There is also a book available showing some of these links by David Dobson
"Huguenot and Scots Links, 1575-1775"
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I have possible Hugenots in Dumfriesshire around that time, if it's any help :)
Still verifying my descent but they were definitely there from early 1700s. Weavers in Nithsdale.
Gadget
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Its fascinating reading ... there were at least 3 "official" Huguenot wars in France with the first emigration as early as 1572 - the main body left after serious persecution began again around 1685.Approximately 250,000 were reputed to have left France within 2 or 3 years 10,000 going to Ireland with only a small percentage going to Scotland.
If anyone remembers the dashing exploits of the 4 musketeers - especially the latter stages where they took part in the siege of la Rochelle against "rebels" - these rebels being supported by the English were the Huguenots - real history always tends to tarnish heroic figures (even fictional ones)
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Hello to All RootsChat Members,
It is good to see this 'Topic' become active again (which was last active in May 2005).
Thank you all who have contributed today Peigi / Linda / Gadget / & Falkyrn.
Falkyrn - thank you for sharing your knowledge on 'The Huguenots' - it certainly does appear to be very fascinating reading. If you care to share further information with us, then please go right ahead, I am sure we would all be very interested.
I will have a look at the link you suggested, also I will try to track down the Book by 'David Dobson'.
Falkyrn - I see by your Names Search Listing, that you are Researching 'POGUE (POLLOCK)', I gather that 'POGUE' might be the Huguenot spelling for 'POLLOCK', am I correct in assuming this?
You also made mention of: "Pollokshaws (which would have then been in Renfrewshire)". Is this where the 'POGUE'/'POLLOCKs' possibly settled?
The reason I am asking is because my husband's family has 'POLLOCK' connections.
Thanks again everyone.
Jeanette H.
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The Pogue line is one of my main enigmas ...... Until recently a solid Irish brick wall .
However a chink appears and it is possible that the Pogue line is possibly Dutch/Flemish in origin as is another of my Irish lines (Fluck/Fluke may have been Flook).
My interest in Pollokshaws stems from my father who was born there - My grandfather (who carried the Pogue and Fluck Lines) stayed and worked there in the dye works. Often during my childhood I heard tales of the "queer folk o' the 'shaws" and its reference to the mills.
You also have to be careful as there have been considerable Flemish influences in Scotland since the 12th Century rather than purely Huguenot settlers.
I have only recently started to look at possible influences from Europe but for a while it is likely to remain wishful thinking.
I am also easily distracted and often end up reading piles of material simply because something has caught my eye ;D
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Hello Falkyrn,
Thank you for your prompt reply.
I think we all must take many little diversions in our research, for if we did not we might never come across an end result, or have the knowledge to make the decisions as to which may be our next direction within our research.
When I first posted this 'Topic' it was because I had heard about
'The Huguenots', and because we could not make any connections going back with in my research, I was trying different scenarios as to why there was no ancestry. There could also be a real possibility of a link to
'The Covenanters', with my families in the Ayrshire/Wigtownshire areas.
At this stage I do not know where my ancestry arrived from prior to Scotland / England / Wales / Ireland, but that is further down the track.
However, it has only been within the past month or so, with the help from other people here on 'RootsChat', that my assumptions relating to my family connections have been confirmed as being correct. I still have a long way to go, but now I have a direction to go.
The following links are where my assumptions - turned to reality and confirmation:
Topic: Re: BROWNs of OCHILTREE: Similarity of 2-Families with Possible Connections.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,165126.0.html
Topic: James and Margaret BROWN (nee CAMPBELL).
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,60007.0.html
Topic: Is This 'TURNBULL' Family On Your Family Tree?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,68197.0.html
Topic: Thomas TURNBULL - Merchant of Hawick, Roxburghshire, Scotland.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,59474.0.html
I wish you success in your travels with your research.
Jeanette H.
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This is very interesting. There are lots of uniquly Scottish family names with Latin origins. I know Latin was spoken in Scotland since the days of St Columbo but that doesn't explain to me why Scotland, a land steeped in it's own history and cultural identity should adopt foriegn names.
Could it be the case that such names came about much later through the introduction of people like the Huguenot's
M
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Hello Jeanette
Put 'Huguenots' into Wikipedia and you get an interesting history/timeline and also a list of famous people who are/were of Huguenot origin.
On the Mutch family website www.mutches.com Harry Mutch speculates whether the Mutches were Huguenots from the Low Countries, the theory being that Mutch comes from 'mutze' meaning a linen cap and our ancestors were weavers. However, having read what Falkryn says about the Flemish coming to Scotland from the 12th century onwards, perhaps not, especially since the first mention of a Mutch in written records - Marjory, a witch - is in the 1590's, if I remember correctly.
Malmo, I have also wondered why there are so many surnames in the North-east of Scotland which end in 'o'...e.g. Dalgarno, Argo, Catto etc. Was that because they were originally spelt with an 'eau'? D'algarneaux?
Just a thought.
Trish
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Hello Trish,
Thank you for directing me to 'Wikipedia', it certainly gives a good coverage of the topic, with plenty of 'Food For Thought'.
Jeanette H.
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I don’t know the answer to that Trish, but there was a time when the Scots weren’t getting on too well with the English that French was taught and spoken routinely in elements of Scots society. Correct me but I think this was about and beyond the time of Mary Stewart. Isn’t it the case that she changed her name to Stuart to accommodate the French who didn’t know what to do with W’s? I just checked this out with my wife who is fluent and she can’t think of a single example apart from “le weekend”. Not exactly the definitive word on the subject particularly as she is watching television.
Anyway, I don’t mean to move away from the Huguenot’s which is interesting in itself but your comment about certain names of French origin being concentrated in the north east of Scotland is telling. My own family name which comes from French, Latin occurs more frequently in Aberdeen than elsewhere and my namesake was the burgess of that city in fifteen fifty nine. As you say, there are many other examples. I would love to know why.
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The relationship between Scotland and France is an old one as both countries had a common foe who was bent on conquering both ..... the relationship was dubbed "The Auld Alliance".
Again courtesy of Wikipedia
The first such agreement was signed in Paris on 23 October 1295
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auld_Alliance
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My family name is Bearn and family 'lore' handed down through the family said that our ancestors came from the Pyrenee's area ,in particular the town of Pau which is the capitol of the Bearn region.
They all seem to settle in Brechin ,Angus and were weavers and flax dressers there.
I cannot find absolute proof of this and at our local Family history meeting last year we had a Hugeneot 'expert' giving a talk and he assured me that No hugeneots settled in Scotland .This I found hard to believe.I am glad it's not only me that believes that they settled there
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I am only taking a guess that my family were Huguenots because I believe them to have come to Scotland sometime around 1760 from or via France. The surname was Muter and one of them founded a textile business in Stonehouse Lanarkshire. There is a possibility though that they did not originate from France but possibly the Low countries. Trish suggests earlier in this thread that the word `mutze` means a linen cap so there could be a link there with the surname Muter. Just a wild guess though.
It seems there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Huguenots did settle in Scotland.
Linda.
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I have been tracking my mother's line...Clazey. Now...it is also Claise, Claisse...deClacy...and these were Huguenots. The name, Claise and then Clazie, Clazy, Claizey suddenly appear in Berwickshire abt. 1730-1740. If you look at the familysearch.org site, the name is identified as French Huguenot and the name is largely in Essex. The Huguenots were part of the merchant and merchant ship economy so between business contacts and their access to ships, it would have been possible for them to get out of France. One line of Claisse were weavers and thank goodness the French can be a silly people...persecuted the Protestants...drove them out...and in the process bankrupted their economy but enriched the world...If you send me your email to: * I have another Clazey researcher who is just tracking the name and he sent a number of great websites about the Huguenots...I can then forward to you.
(*)
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
Sharon
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I forgot to add...many of the Huguenots first fled to the lowlands...from there, they moved on when it became obvious they could not return home any time soon!
Sharon
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Thanks for that Sharon. Thats another line of enquiry for me to follow.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Regards, Linda.
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Hello To All 'RootsChat Members',
Good to see that this Topic is creating some interest again.
I first posted this QUESTION, in May 2005, it took off again in September 2006, and now once again we are on the move, having been read over 998 times.
It is great that we can share the information we come across with our fellow researchers.
Thank you to the recent members who have posted messages: Walder, Linmey (Linda) and Clazey (Sharon).
Clazey (Sharon) in your message which you recently posted.
....I have another Clazey researcher who is just tracking the name and he sent a number of great websites about the Huguenots....
You mentioned that a fellow researcher had come across some web-sites relevant to 'The Huguenots!'
Why not post the URLs to these sites and share them with all of us!
This will only benefit the awareness and understanding of this very interesting Topic.
Thanks again everyone.
Jeanette H.
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As promised from T.M. Sommers, Clazey researcher: http://www.genealogyforum.com/gfaol/resourse/Huguenot/hug0006...has two entries regarding Scotland.
1609: Group of Flemish Huguenots settled in Canongate, Scotland.
By 1707: 400 refugee Huguenot families had settled in Scotland and helped establish the Scottish weaving trade.
I quote from T.M. Sommers: Canongate is evidently in Edinburgh. What is interesting about the 1609 entry is that they were Flemish. Apparently most Huguenots were in south and central France. Clacy (Clacy-et-Thierret is the full name) however, is in the north a few miles SW of Leon. While not exactly next door Flanders isn't very far away; not much farther away than Berwick is from Edinburgh. It doesn't seem impossible that a Huguenot from Clacy would have joined with a bunch from Flanders emigrating to Scotland.
http://www.huguenot.netnation.com/general/
http://www.huguenotsociety.org.uk
http://www.aftc.com.au/huguenot/hug.html
(the above lists Claisse as a confirmed Huguenot surname in England - my line - clazey.)
http:''huguenots.picards.free.fr/
(Clacy is in Picardy)
I have not visited these websites yet...I will be looking for a map...I do know that what I consider France today was not France yesterday...Flanders was an independent place?
There is not a doubt in my mind that Huguenots made it to Scotland...would have been a perfect place to be left alone...
Let me know what you think of these sites and could one access them...
Sharon
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A perfect place to be left alone clazey and of course very very Protestant. Scotland would have been a good choice.
Many thinks for those links.
Best wishes, Linda.
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Hello Jeanette
Put 'Huguenots' into Wikipedia and you get an interesting history/timeline and also a list of famous people who are/were of Huguenot origin.
On the Mutch family website www.mutches.com Harry Mutch speculates whether the Mutches were Huguenots from the Low Countries, the theory being that Mutch comes from 'mutze' meaning a linen cap and our ancestors were weavers. However, having read what Falkryn says about the Flemish coming to Scotland from the 12th century onwards, perhaps not, especially since the first mention of a Mutch in written records - Marjory, a witch - is in the 1590's, if I remember correctly.
Malmo, I have also wondered why there are so many surnames in the North-east of Scotland which end in 'o'...e.g. Dalgarno, Argo, Catto etc. Was that because they were originally spelt with an 'eau'? D'algarneaux?
Just a thought.
Trish
I've heard a rumour that the Dalgarnos were survivors of the wrecked ships of the Spanish Armada
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My Family suddenly appear in the mid 1600s at St Andrews, Fife with the name Motion. It is thought within the present family that they were Huguenots who had fled from France. The french name Moisan most closely approximates Motion in Scottish dialect. Could this be an answer to you question ? :)
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I have only found this site and although I have not concrete proof the following may be of interest. On researching the family tree I found that the name Ritchie had been changed from the name Fatt back in the 1600s I thought that it may have been a nickname as was common in the fishing villages and still is but later found a web site in Australia where someone was researching Huguenot surnmaes and one of which was the name Fatt. The only reference to that name in Scotland although there are numerous Fatts in southeast England and London at that time was in Kincardineshire , firstly Stonehaven then they seemed to come down the coast as there are references in Kinneff, Gourdon (Bervie Parish) and then Montrose My family are recorded for the past 400/500 years at Gourdon. The Parish records of Bervie have a David Ritchie also recorded as David Fatt. Although I don't actively research my family tree I have had correspondence from an elderly lady in America who was trying to find the origins of her surname, Fatt. When Iinformed her of what I had learned she was delighted and informed me that she had been brought up as a child in Germany and that her parents had taken her every Sunday to a Huguenot church . I have no further proof of whether the name is Huguenot. Hoping this might be of interest The Australian website of surnmames is www.aftc.com.au/Huguenot/Hug.html
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For Trishmac, Black, in his surnames gives the names ending in o down to "laziness of utterance" most should end in ch!......Skoosh.
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My husband's family TRIM believe they descend from Flemish refugees (probably Huguenots) who fled from religious persecution to DEVON. They were LACE MAKERS, and Devon Trims it seems were involved in making the lace for Queen Victoria's wedding dress. Doe anyone have any information on the Trims, please?
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Hello everyone. I am descended from Scottish Huguenots and I've just found out! Glad to find this discussion. Is there anyone out there?
My name is Lightbody often spelled Lichtbodie and we were by family tradition lacemakers in Lanark, Scotland and latterly we are on record as Clockmakers for several generations. The original name was thought to be Lichtenberger but I am open to suggestions on that.
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Hello lightarch ~ welcome to Rootchat
I'm here but I'm still not sure if my ancestors were Huguenots or not :-\
Would you like to share with us your Huguenot names, dates and locations :)
Gadget
My bit:
I have possible Hugenots in Dumfriesshire around that time, if it's any help :)
Still verifying my descent but they were definitely there from early 1700s. Weavers in Nithsdale.
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Hi Gadget, good to hear from you. I'll put together some names etc in next 24 hours All tyhe best John
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Hi,
First of all I don’t really know a lot about Huguenots, I have done odd pieces of investigation but it’s not really my field. I did however come across an interesting document a few months ago and thought it may be useful. It does not mention Huguenots however it is a “Registers of Aliens” in Edinburgh in 1794 so if there were Huguenots in Edinburgh one would presume they will be in it. There are certainly many people from France, are they Huguenots?
Anyway it’s a PDF on the edinburgh.gov.uk website here’s the link, click the top PDF “Aliens_Registers_Index”: http://events.edinburgh.gov.uk/internet/attachments/internet/council/council_business/city_archives/collections%20and%20indexes
Hope this is of some use.
Emma
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Thank you! Two of us researching, Clazey and its many spellings have been finding individuals in Paris, Cambray, and Picardie and while some can be translated...others not! I have muddled through between the Latin I took years ago and the Spanish!
sharon
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Re (Huguenot) Francies / Frances / Francis family in Ayr and Wigtownshire Scotland, who may have been Huguenots. The Scotland part is established, but I have not yet found records linking them to France (possibly Alsace region).
For Scottish records, I have a marriage record, 6 Jan 1798 of John Frances and Katharine McKissock in Ayr, Scotland. (From family oral history, he was captain of a merchant vessel and died at sea.) Other parts of family oral history turned out to be true, e.g., I heard the family was from Ayr, which I was able to prove. I'm thinking about how to verify that the Francies family originally came from France and were Huguenots.
I have birth records for some of John Frances' children, who were born in Irvine parish Ayr
John K. Francies 1798,
William McKessock Frances 1800,
Hugh McKessock 1802,
Mary Francis 1805,
and James Francies born in Wigtownshire 1807.
Other leads, we have references to John's father, Sir Samuel Francies, and a crest drawing. The crest includes a bird that to me looks like a dove, which I gather is the bird on the Huguenot cross. Am looking for independent records for Sir Samuel, and trying to gather more information on the crest and to see if an heraldic expert can pull some facts from it, e.g., if originally from France or Scotland. Suggestions / insights appreciated!
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This seems to be a good-going thread, so I thought I would join in!
I had ancestors in Kelso called Stewart, and for a long time I was content to have traced them back to the early 1700s, but then I took a notion to try and push the family-tree back a bit further. The Kelso records are very full, and I soon managed to get back to a James Stewart and Nanc Companion who were married there in 1609. Nanc or Nans is a short form of Nancy, often used in Scotland for Agnes.
Companion is an unusual surname, and when I checked on Scotlandspeople I found that it's very rare in Scotland, disappearing here after the death of Barbara Companion in Montrose in 1740. But then I googled it and found that Compagnon is a common surname in France and both Compagnon and Companion are common in French Canada. So I suspect that those Companions in Scotland were Huguenots. Nanc Companion may have started as an Agnès Compagnon.
Of course, there were French-speakers in Scotland long before the Huguenots, by which I mean the Anglo-Norman aristocracy and their followers who were invited up here by King David I in the 12th century. It's well known that many Scottish surnames like Fraser, Gordon, Bruce, Hay, Melville, Lessels etc. are of French origin. What is not so easy to establish is whether or not a modern Fraser or Bruce is directly descended from a Frenchman of that name, or from an ordinary peasant who adopted the laird's name when surnames became compulsory for taxation purposes. The new science of genetic genealogy (which starts with a simple cheek swab!) has been applied to some of the Highland clans and on average between 20% and 30% of McDonalds, McKenzies etc. tested turn out to be genetically related to the current clan chief who bears their surname.
I also had ancestors called Pettigrew who were Ulster Presbyterians in the Belfast area, and who moved to Scotland in the 1830s. I suspect their ancestors were Scots. Pettigrew or Petticrew is a very old name in Lanarkshire, and seems to be from French 'petit' and 'cru', "small growth", maybe a nickname for a small man, like Tiny or Shorty. My research into the Pettigrews in medieval Scotland has shown a strong pattern of connection and relationship to the Hamiltons, the feudal lords of Lanarkshire, who themselves were Anglo-Normans. I suspect (I'm always suspecting!) that they brought the Pettigrews with them to Scotland in their wake.
Harry
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A very interesting thread so I have joined today. Perhaps a little late by the previous entry dates.
I have found on ScotlandsPeople there are OPR births for my family in south east Fife from 1603 (parishes of Kettle, Kirkcaldy, Kinghorn, Burntisland, mostly on the coast). Name is Thallan with the usual spelling variations though the 'older' ones are spelled Thalland. Modern name is Thallon.
The 1603 date seems a bit early for Huguenot links. I have searched SCAN and GENUKI but there is very little this old.
About the Scotland / Northern Ireland links, there are many. Other than politics, there was good commercial reasons for these links, basically it was safer to trade over the sea than travel by land through forests full of brigands.
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Black's Surnames, has Thallon/Thalland in Fife from the 1580s but no guess at the origin.
Skoosh.
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The surname Clazie is found in early records, at three widely-separated locations:
-1656 at Bram, Aude, southern France (baptism of a child, the mother named Jeane Clazie)
-1665 at Hutton, Berwickshire, southeastern Scotland (Jon Clazie delivered the bell to the newly renovated kirk)
-1723 at Leeuwarden, Friesland, northern Netherlands (marriage of a man, Jean Clazie)
Records at Berwick-upon-Tweed show a Clasey or Clasie family, starting in 1670. Despite the spelling difference, they might be related to the others.
A later record at Hutton, Berwickshire showed the marriage on 15 Sep 1777 of John Clasie to Margaret Paulin, an apparently French surname.
As soon as we breathe the word "Huguenots", people begin the derisive laughter! But how else to explain these names appearing in such diverse locations, within a short space of time? Does anyone with access to 17th century French or Dutch records know the Clazie name?
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Hello (again) Heiserca
I do hope you do not think it was me who was being in any way 'derisive' in regard your contention this family may be Huguenot in your previous thread to this board. That was certainly not my intention.
As you can see from my own tag and many posts here I have very extensive experience and a wide knowledge of researching the Huguenots in the U.K and France, and a fairly extensive set of resources readily available to me to do so.
You can never say never on anything in Genealogy, but as an expert of sorts in this area, I do think it is fairly safe to rule out a Huguenot connection for this family, for a number of reasons which perhaps I should have explained a bit clearer.
The Huguenot refugees to the British Isles were in comparison with later refugee communities extremely well documented, they were generally literate (as the Protestant faith initially spread in France through books and pamphlets), will have belonged to well documented congregations in France, and on arriving in their new homeland would have made it an immediate priority to join a congregation here, this was after all the reason they were fleeing to be able to worship freely. Contrary to popular belief it was never 'illegal' to actually be a Protestant in France, and only the pastors of the reformed faith faced execution if found to be holding services or evangelizing for the faith, within the Kings borders. In fact, due to this, nine out of ten French Protestants actually remained in France, worshiping secretly, and it was very much the minority who fled.
The survival rate of Huguenot registers in Britain is extremely good. The name Clazie never appears anywhere amongst the documents of Huguenot congregations of either France of Britain, therefore it is fairly safe to rule your family out on that basis alone, as the chances of them being Huguenots and appearing in neither are next to nothing.
In addition, there is also the issue of timing. You have a John Clazie in Hutton 1665. The main Huguenot exodus to England occurred only after the Revocation of the Edit of Nantes in 1685. It is true some Huguenots fled earlier than this, for example during the French religious wars 1562-1598 and the fall of La Rochelle in the 1620's. However we are talking very small amounts of people here, who were again very well documented and the Clazie's were not amongst them. Protestantism had a more or less full legal existence in France between 1598-1685 so there was really little reason to flee during the majority of that time.
True Louis XIV began his persecutions earnestly in the early 1660's, but they were slow building in intensity and severity, and few refugees come in any significant numbers until about 1678, partly due to the fact this was when the Kings own Catholic faith was 'renewed' due to his new mistress Madame Maintanont, though probably most significantly this was the first time the King's armies were not tied up in his many foreign conflicts and were therefore available to persecute the domestic 'religious' problem as he by then saw it. So a first appearance of a Huguenot name in 1665, especially found outside of London and the existing communities, really doesn't fit well.
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Also to add to above, as already mentioned in our last posts together, the very idea of Huguenot refugees trekking from Languedoc to Northern England or Scotland is in itself highly unlikely. It was illegal for Huguenots to flee the Kingdom, they risked detection and imprisonment all the way, so they obviously took the closest form of escape possible. In the south this was the land border to Geneva the spiritual homeland of their faith. Instead trekking all the way up through the entirety of France into Holland or even undertaking a long clandestine boat journey to the British Isles, for most, if not all, would simply have not been an option.
I have myself done a thorough study into the place of origin of the Huguenots who joined the main congregation of Threadneedle Street in London, who had testimonials from their congregations in France, with the following results:
Normandy 946
Paris 714
Poitou 417
Picardy 284 (But up to 1,400 possible as many Picard Huguenots fled first Holland)
Saintonge 100
Loire 100
Languedoc 75
Nord 58
Champagne 49
Gascony 42
Brittany 24
Lyons 20
As you can see generally the further away from Britain, as might be expected, the less likely Huguenots were to flee there. Indeed 65 or the 75 Huguenots from Languedoc were from Nimes, a Protestant stronghold in the south, and were almost without exception bought all the way to Britain under very extraordinary circumstances. My own ancestor was one of these few, he and his family was bought there along with 15 others of that 75, when Queen Caroline personally intervened for their asylum in a case 'famous Europe wide' with books written about it. Likewise most of the others also came in groups in similar large scale, unusual and very well documented incidents of extraordinary persecutions. The chances the Clazies came from such a far flung place, either alone or in a group, but entirely undocumented, are next to nil.
Also from your earliest record your Clazie's are involved with and using the Anglican church. If Huguenots you'd have to ask why? The Huguenots were Calvinists. They would have fled to practice Calvinism. Anglicanism they viewed as only one step up from Catholicism, it was in many ways just the Catholic Church minus the pope. They viewed Catholicism as Anti-Christ, and Anglicism only marginally better.
Again you can never rule anything totally out. But since you have other much more plausable explanations for your Clazie's family's origins in Berwick, I do think you risk wasting your time in continuing to look for a French link, well certainly a Huguenot French one at any rate.
In short for the three examples you have found to be seen as possible evidence for a Huguenot link, you'd have to believe several things. That the family came from a very unlikely place of origin, (Languedoc), to an even more unlikely place of refuge (Berwick), whilst leaving no trace or documentation of their move (for Huguenots extremely unlikely in itself), at a very unlikely time for Huguenot immigration to the British Isles, and to top it all off were quite happy to settle in a place where they had no means of worshiping amongst their own brethren, in their own faith, even though this would have been the prime, probably only, reason for their initial flight! It just doesn't add up at all.
Hope that explains my views on it clearer so you can see I was not being hasty or dismissive towards the idea of Huguenot origin for this family, just giving you my genuine view based on my own experience and knowledge in this area.
Regards
Richard
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Unfortunately, opinions and generalities are easy to provide. Evidence is harder to find. We continue holding out for evidence.
The Clazie name has been present in southern Scotland since at least 1665, and at Berwick-upon-Tweed around the same time. Now finding exactly the same name in France and the Netherlands was a distinct surprise! How to explain the remarkale coincidence?
No preconceived ideas - a wide-open question: what explains finding exactly the same (unusual) name in France, Netherlands & Scotland, all between 1665-1723?
The Clazies in Scotland were Presbyterian, with very rare exceptions. Their background is consistent with Huguenot heritage but by itself proves nothing.
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You might like to google and read about John Knox, the Scottish Catholic priest who introduced Presbyterianism into Scotland after he travelled to Europe and discussed religion with European protestants against Catholicism. You will see he was spared death by his catholic Monarch who instead sentenced him to ply the oars of a French ship for two years. As for Berwickshire in northern England - He preached at various places, amongst them was at Durham Cathedral, in northern England and also in Edinburgh, Scotland. If my memory serves me correctly I believe he also spread the word in Geneva.
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Unfortunately, opinions and generalities are easy to provide. Evidence is harder to find. We continue holding out for evidence.
The Clazie name has been present in southern Scotland since at least 1665, and at Berwick-upon-Tweed around the same time. Now finding exactly the same name in France and the Netherlands was a distinct surprise! How to explain the remarkale coincidence?
No preconceived ideas - a wide-open question: what explains finding exactly the same (unusual) name in France, Netherlands & Scotland, all between 1665-1723?
The Clazies in Scotland were Presbyterian, with very rare exceptions. Their background is consistent with Huguenot heritage but by itself proves nothing.
Heiserca, preconceived ideas is precisely what is slipping you up here. You appear to have made your mind up that a name appearing in three separate places indicates a strong possibility of a Huguenot origin. It doesn't. As a very experienced Huguenot researcher I can tell you firmly that this scenario is virtually impossible, and I have set down in great detail for you why, with a thorough explanation. This is not a generalised opinion, I have in fact searched thoroughly through the complete publications of the Huguenot Society of GB & Ireland, including lists of Scottish and North English congregations and refugees, several private databases in my possession not published by the Huguenot Society, and every French website and database, which are plentiful, containing Huguenot congregations.
What sort of evidence are you hoping would appear? I fear you are waiting for evidence that will never come. If they were a Huguenot family they would appear in the Huguenot registers of France and England,or even Holland, and they do not.
Trust me your wasting your time following that route it is a dead end.
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"wide-open question: what explains finding exactly the same (unusual) name in France, Netherlands & Scotland, all between 1665-1723?"
In regard that I think we already covered much of that. The fact is you have a single isolated example in France for that time period. No evidence it was ever more widespread, it may simply be a mistake in the register, you'd need to check the original.
In Hutton the name appears, under various spellings, from the earliest parish registers that exist:
Births: 1700 to 1854.
Marriages: 1702 to 1788 and 1798 to 1854.
Deaths: 1702 to 1765 and 1798 to 1854
And there is a single mention in the church minutes which exist starting from 1649, (dating 1665)
This in itself then just shows the family existed in the village from the earliest records onwards. It is no indication of when they arrived. They could well have been there from the very beginnings of the church in the 13th century and before, we simply don't have records of that. Certainly the name Clayce, Clase, Clasie are all in use in England before that time, which could point towards a purely domestic origin.
Alternatively, it could have a Dutch origin, as we know protestant Clase/Claes families came over in the 16th century to the east coast of the British isles and settled. Your John Clazie first appears delivering a bell from Holland, at the same time war breaks out which cut off the trading routes to Holland. The isolated example of 'Clazie' spelling in Holland too, might indicate this was an alternative spelling there. But it does not ever appear in one of Hollands Huguenot churches or in an area of Huguenot settlement there.
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Clezie was a variant spelling of Clazie, used in Scotland during the 17th & 18th centuries, interchangeably with Clazie, later taken to Canada and the United States. Le Clezio is found on Jersey, a British dependency in the Channel Islands near the coast of Normandy, and Le Clezio also also is found in France proper. How, if at all, is Le Clezio related to Clezie, and to the Clazie names found in Languedoc, Friesland and Berwickshire? Much remains unknown about the movements of people and their surnames "Trust me" does not inspire trust but the reverse. Best to keep an open mind, a sense of humility about the limits of our knowledge, while continuing to search for evidence.
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Well if you choose not to trust expert opinion..what more is there to say? I give up. Good luck to you.
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The purpose of RootsChat is to share family information; not talk-down to others. There are no “experts” here, only people cooperating to learn. Lecturers quickly discover that nobody is listening. I bid you a fond adieu.
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On the contrary, there are plenty of experts, as well as every grade of amateur. Richarde has been very generous with his time and knowledge (on both this and your own thread), and it is clear that this is indeed his area of expertise. Of course, it is up to you whether to trust his knowledge or judgement, but writing him off as a "lecturer" is, in my opinion, quite an insulting and ungrateful put-down.
Good luck with your search, but I don't suppose anything you learn here will affect your pre-conceived ideas.
Mike
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In his book Old NEWMILNS, Hugh Maxwell quotes that a major factor in the development of handloom weaving industry was due to the settlement of Flemish and Huguenot immigrants in the village who brought with them the knowledge of how to pattern weave and read the cloth.
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I am trying to establish a link for my family name of Pagon or Pagan in Scotland (or elsewhere). They came to settle in the Eastern Shore of Maryland, USA in about 1700, and settled in a community which had some Huguenot refugees (Antoine LeCompte from Picardy). I wondered whether there was any Huguenot connection for the Pagans which would incline them to settle in that area of the USA. Does anyone know of any sources I could look into? The first Pagan I have is a Harbott (or possibly Herbert) Pagan who must have been born around 1675.
Any suggestions about how to go about researching his origins would be most gratefully received.
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Earliest date for the name in Scotland that I can find is
PAGEN
HELENE child of HEW PAGEN/JONET HERIOT
18/11/1638
Edinburgh
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Black, in his surnames, has the Latin Paganus, a chaplain in Glasgow, 1180 & Pagan in Paisley before 1265. "Found in the west & southwest of Scotland. Isobel Pagan 1741-1820 was a minor poet.
Skoosh.
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Our earliest known Pagane/Pagan is Thomas, a merchant living in Glasgow. I know little about him beyond the fact that he had at least two children, Mary born 1674 and Thomas born 1676, both in Glasgow. I also suspect a David but have no firm evidence of this. This generation was involved in the transportation of Palatine Germans from Rotterdam to Pennsylvania, returning to Glasgow with trade goods, mostly tobacco from Virginia and sugar from St Kitts. My understanding is that because of the connotation of the name, in some cases it mutated over time to Pane, Pain, Paigne etc.,
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Wills available on SP
Pagane
Thomas
25/11/1689
merchant in Glasgow
Testament Testamentar and Inventory
Glasgow Commissary Court
CC9/7/48
Paigan
James
3/2/1672
merchant in Glasgow
TD
Glasgow Commissary Court
CC9/7/39
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James Pagan editor of the Glasgow Herald.
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/glasgow/glasgow_heraldndx.htm
Skoosh.
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Thanks for looking, Sancti. I have Thomas Pagane’s 1689 Will and spent many an hour labouring over the old script without much success, so can’t be absolutely certain he is the right man. There were two Thomas Paganes in Glasgow about the same time; one married to Agnes Charters and one to Helen Kirkpatrick. She interests me most because the name Helen carries through the family whereas Agnes does not. I get the impression that this Thomas is making provision for unmarried children; Marie, David, John & Thomas. Also mentions children of John Pagane; James, Thomas and Marion, but deciphering the Will is beyond me I’m afraid, so could be totally wrong.
My frustration with Thomas’ Will rather put me off downloading the one for James Pagane, but that was in the old days of £5 a time!
The 1737 Will of Thomas’ daughter, Mary Pagane, widow of Andrew Lees is better, at least I can make enough sense of it to confirm I’m on the right track.
Have you read “Sketches of the History of Glasgow” by James Pagane, linked to at the bottom your electric Scotland link, Skoosh? I really enjoyed it
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I understand that one of my Oliver forbears was a Hugenot silk-weaver who fled France as Jacques Olivier and settled in Scotland. Eventually some of the family moved down to Manchester where they were associated with a cotton mill. I'd be interested if anyone knows about Olivers/Oliviers in Scotland!
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Be careful of that one, as Oliver is an old surname on both sides of the Anglo-Scottish border and although it might be of French origin, that long predates the Huguenots.
Harry
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Yes, for sure! Thank you.
Jane
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Great subject
Here is the obituary of John Morland who was the Grandson of my 6x Grt Grandfather from stranraer.
The American John Morland was the son of a William Morland who emigrated to USA in 1762. William Morland was born in Stranraer to John McMorland who was born abt 1702.. He is laid to rest in the old Parish cemetery in Castle Kennedys grounds within Inch (I have been there a few times)
I am sharing the obituary of this John Morland who was also American Consul in CUBA but origins from Scotland Wigtownshire.. Obituary written in Boston 1856 John Morland was born in 24th March 1778 ... The Obituary of John paints a clear history of my Morland roots linked to Huguenots and migrating to England and Scotland .. No idea exact time but can only guess through mid 1600s after King Louis 14th push from abt 1661 to force the Huguenots out .. I can see Morlands listed in the Wigtownshire area in the Parish Lists of Wigtownshire and Minnigaff, 1684 .. Maybe that was my family ...
Regards
Scott Morland
New Zealand
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@ Scott, Trotter in his "Galloway Gossip" gives this name as, MacMorlachan, McMorlan (usual way), Morlan (familiarly) & Moreland or McMoreland (genteel wey).
Black has the origin of the name as son of Murghal & several place-names are also called Moreland.
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Thanks skoosh
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My Petticrew grandfather said the family were of French Huguenot descent and originally settled somewhere in the Scottish Borders region.
My DNA test with My Heritage shows dozens of distant cousins that are French, Scandinavian and Eastern European.
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Looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack. So my anecdotal family history has my ancestors leaving France in the 1600’s for the Scottish isles. They then continued on the N Ireland at some point. When in Ireland their surname was Gilmour.
Emigration from France in 1600’s sounds possibly Huguenot? In Ireland they were farmers. Earliest record there in late 1700’s.
Can anyone print me in a direction that I can do some digging. Is there a western isle that seemed to harbour some Huguenot emigrees more than another. Is there a French name that Gilmour may have derived from?
Appreciate any help at all
Doug
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Is there a French name that Gilmour may have derived from?
According to G F Black's The Surnames of Scotland Gilmour and variants are derived from Gaelic Gille Moire, 'Servant of (the Virgin) Mary.
There's a longish article listing mediaeval references to Gilmours, almost all of them in the Lowlands or south of Scotland, and none in any of the islands.
That's not to say, of course, that Huguenots from France didn't move to the islands and/or adopt the name Gilmour. Just that Black's book doesn't mention any such connection.
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thx I get so focused on my surname I forget that it may have been a female from France that married a Gilmour already in Scotland. Making it harder to track
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Our family "lore" has it that we are of Huguenot descent. The Moncure family of Virginia was begun by John Moncure, born John Moncur, in 1710 in Scotland. He was accepted into the "Society of The Founders of Manakin in the Colony of Virginia," which was a Huguenot group. I am still trying to confirm whether the family was in fact Huguenot, but our family has believed it to be so for generations.
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According to G F Black's The Surnames of Scotland the earliest documentary reference to a Moncur in Scotland was some time between 1237 and 1248, and there are several more references before the Reformation, so the surname did exist in Scotland in pre-Huguenot times.
That's not to say that no Huguenots of the same name came to Scotland after the Reformation, of course. Or the Huguenot could have been someone of a different surname who came to Scotland and married a Moncur.
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Thanks for the reference. I'll find Black's book. It never occurred to me that a Moncur had *married* a Huguenot and that was the start of the association. :)
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The Surnames of Scotland is at https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015011274175&seq=25 and possibly also elsewhere.
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My Petticrew grandfather said the family were of French Huguenot descent and originally settled somewhere in the Scottish Borders region.
My DNA test with My Heritage shows dozens of distant cousins that are French, Scandinavian and Eastern European.
I've posted elsewhere about Petticrew/Pettigrew. The first appearance of the name Petticrew in Scotland is in 1296 in the "Ragman Roll", the list of small landowners who did homage to King Edward I of England, and that Thomas Petticrew was in the Monklands area of Lanarkshire (modern Coatbridge and Airdrie). The name is also found at an early date in Shettleston in the east of Glasgow, and in Ayrshire. This long predates the Huguenots and I believe these Petticrews would have come over from France during the Norman Conquest. The Lanarkshire Petticrews seem to have had links with the powerful Hamiltons, an Anglo-Norman family who were given land in Lanarkshire.
I had Petticrew ancestors in Northern Ireland whose own ancestors probably came from Ayrshire.
Harry
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I got a copy of Thomas Pagane died 1689 will. Here is an AI transcription of page 2. Sorry I can't read secretary handwriting.
If anyone else wants to compare it and have a go, here is a link to the will.
https://ramblinggenealogy.blogspot.com/2024/02/the-pagan-family-of-canada-pagan-1691.html
Followeth ded lastd will and Legacie
At Glascow the fyften day of June 1689 yeirs This all day
Thomas Pagane mite ye being feble of bodie but sound in Judge
ment and understanding and Resolved to settle his wordlie affairs
does he heirby make his testament and Lastd will as followeth
Imprimis ne nommais makes and appoynts Johne Wallace
tad yeomen in Glasgow, James Wallace merchant ye and
Johne Grenle uter them his onlie executors sele and vniveefall
onromettors with his hail goods ger debts and sommes of money
Item be heirby nommats and appoynts the said thrie persones
his excts, To be tutors to marie david and Johne Paganes
his childrine Item his debts being payt he herby leaves in
Legacie To the said thrie executors and tutors Thrie fonmed
of ffourtie pound feeling equallie amongst them for the paie
in executing of the said offices of exeoerie and tutorie Labors
It is heirby providit That In caice It shae happine all
the childrine of the said Thomas Pagane Shall happen
To depart this Lyfe before Lawfull marriage or before they
attaine to the age of twentie and heirs complent which of them
shall first happine To occurre That then and in that caice
of the said hade childrines decease as said is exprestie and no bte
Crayes The said Thomas heirby Leaves in Legacie to the
persons ffeespect the sommes of money following viz in the first
To david and Anna Kirpatrick childrine to Johne Kirpa
trick in karmicie equallie betwixt them The somme of
Thirce Thousand meekled stots may Item to Johne Rodge,
Mexl, telea, and marion Pagans mbarbronghe mylne
equallie amongst them The somme of one Thousand.
mil ret mone aforsaid Item to Johne, Alexander helen
hoodie childrine Land to Thomas Elses and
Goddre in Closburne equallie amongst them The somme of
Two Choldfand mil Ros money forsaid And all no Tholl
sand mee lo moe is hemrby rrdaunt to be Lyfrented by the
fo Thomas Goldre himself during his Lystyne Item to marion
and Jonet mades daughters to Robert made in Wanfurd
inchore equallie amongst temn Taie fonme of ffive hundred
midles money forsaid Item to Thomas, Jonet and marrion
Pagans Childrine to Johnes Pagane in Closeburne equallie
amongst them The somme of Tine Thopsand onie bid not
forsd S ddso the siy Thomas Soe herby Give full pollid
and Commissione To the said Johne and James Mallaces and Johne
Srenle ext and tutors aforsaid To domnnishe or ang ment his
childrines portione at he shall find the mnselves necessite swas
to doe Providing awanes that any ateanne the sholl said them
felves necessitat to make shue be to the behwove of ane or ait
of the saids childrine and not vthe wayes In Artnes of her puss
Brattin be the said pusprente) are subect an day yeir & pa
forsd Refethes Cornessy Wm doig las, and Thomas Brill
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I'm interested in this subject, not directly because of any Huguenots, but because it's not unusual to find the same name in Scotland/England and also across the North Sea in Flemish/Fresian/Dutch locations. From my wife's own family history, I've found her surname in Jersey/Guernsey, Isle of Wight, Cornwall and South Wales, all from a seafaring and trading background. I'm wondering if the same could be true here, regardless of whether folks were Huguenots or not?
Going off at a Huguenot tangent, and some irrelevant trivia, there's also a Huguenot connection to Sir Francis Drake. It's not the part taught in simple school history (Spanish Amarda), but it's Drake's backstory as a privateer with Huguenots in the West Indies, plus how he got the finance for his circumnavigation, landing at the Huguenot stronghold of La Rochelle before returning to Plymouth. Not that I'm a great fan of Sir Francis Drake, as what he did in Scotland is also not in simple school history.
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A corrected version of the page from Thomas Pagan's will.
Followes the deids [= dead’s] Latter will and Legacie
At Glasgow the fyftein day of June 1689 yeirs The q[uhi]lk [= which] day
Thomas pagane me[rchan]d [= merchant] y[ai]r [= there] being sicke of bodie bot sound
in Judge-
ment and vnderstanding and Resolved to settle his wordlie affairs
does heirby make his testament and Latter will as followes
Imprimis [ Latin for firstly] He nominats makes and constituts Johne Wallace
tayleor [= tailor] mer[chan]d in Glasgow, James Wallace merchand y[ai]r and
Johne Spreule w[ri]ter [= lawyer] ther His onlie exe[cuto]rs sole and vniversill
intromettors with his haill [= whole] goods geir [= gear] debts and soumes of money
Item he heirby nominats and appoynts the s[ai]ds thrie persones
his ex[ecuto]rs, To be tutors [= guardians in legal matters] to marie david and Johne
paganes
his childrine Item his debts being payit [= paid] he heirby Leaves in
Legacie To the saids thrie executors and tutors The soume [= sum]
of ffourtie pound sterling equallie amongst them for ther pains
in executing of ther said offices of exe[cut]orie and tutorie Likeas [= likewise]
It is heirby providit That In caice [= case] It shall happine all
the childrine of the said Thomas pagane Shall happen
To depairt this Lyfe befor Lawfull mariage or before they
attaine to the age of tuentie ane [= one] zeirs [= years] compleat which of them
shall first happine To occurr That then and in that caice
of the said haill [= whole/all] childrines decease as said is expreslie and no vther
ways [= not otherwise] The said Thomas heirby Leaves in Legacie to the
persons efterspe[cife]it [= afterspecified] the soumes of money following viz in the first
To david and Anna Kilpatricks childrine to Johne Kilpa
=trick in Barmuire equallie betuixt them The soume of
Thrie Thowsand merkes [ a merk = 13/4d] scots mo[n]ey Item to Johne Rodger,
Alex[ande]r, Helen, and marion Pagans in barbroughe mylne [= mill]
equallie amongst them The soume of ane Thowsand
merkes money forsaid Item to Johne, Alexander Helen
Elspeth and ----- [name left blank] Goldies childrine Lau[fu]ll to Thomas
Goldie in Closburne equallie amongst them The soume of
Two Thowsand merkes money forsaid and q[uhi]lk [= which] two Thow-
sand merkes mo[n]ey is heirby ordainit [= ordained] to be Lyfrented [= liferented] by the
s[ai]d Thomas Goldie himself during his Lyftyme Item to marion
and Jonet maders daughters to Robert mader in Wanfurd-
muir equallie amongst them The soume of ffive hundredth [= hundred]
merkes money forsaid Item to Thomas, Jonet and marrion
Pagans childrine to James Pagane in closeburne equallie
amongst them The soume of Thrie Thowsand merkes mo[ne]y
fors[ai]d As also the s[ai]d Thomas Does heirby Give full power
and commissione To the s[ai]ds Johne and James Wallaces and Johne
Spreule ex[ecuto]rs and tutors forsaids To diminishe or augment his s[ai]ds
childrines portione as they shall find themselves necessitat [= necessitated] swa [= so]
to doe [= do] Providing alwayes that any alterati(o)une they shall find them-
selves necessitat to make shall be to the behoove [= behoof] of ane or aith[e]r [= other]
of the s[ai]ds childrine and not vtherwayes [= otherwise] In witnes q[uhai]rof [= whereof]
thir [= these] p[rese]nts [i.e this present document]
Writtin be [= by] the s[ai]d Jon Spreule & are sub[scrivi]t [= signed] att day yeir & plaic [= place]
fors[ai]d Before thir [= these] witnesses Wm dowglas [= Douglas], and Thomas Kirk mer[chan]ds travellors between Scotland and England sic sub[scribe]t(u)r [= Latin for thus signed] Thomas Pagan William Dowglas witness Thomas Kirk witnes
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The previous page of Thomas Pagan's will.
The Testament testamentar [= a testament made by the deceased when they were still alive] and
Inventare [= inventory] of the
goods geir [= gear] debts and soumes [= sums] of money Quhilkes [= which] p[er]teinit [=
pertained] and belongit
to umq[uhi]ll [= to the late/deceased] Thomas Pagane me[rchan]d [= merchant] in Glasgow The tyme
of his
decease who deceast in the moneth [= month] of [left blank] Last bypast
ffaithfullie made and givin up be [= by] the defuncts [= deceased's] owine [= own] mouth In swa
[= so]
far as concerns the nominatione of his exe[cut]ors, tutors [= legal guardians to underage children]
to his childrine,
and Legacies eftersp[ecif]eit [= afterspecified] And Pairt [= part] he made and givin up be [= by]
Johne and James Wallaces merchands in Glasgow, and Johne Spreule
w[ri]ter [= lawyer] y[ai]r [= there] executors testamentars [= nominated by the deceased in their
will] nominat be [= by] the defunct In swa far as [ = insofar as]
the upgiving of the Inventare of the defuncts goods & geir As the
defuncts testament and Latterwill of the date underwr[itt]ine on itself [= in itself]
more fullie bears
Inventare
Item the defunct had p[er]teining and belonging to him the tyme
of his decease forsaid of Lyand [= lying/ready] money iiij c Lxxx lib [£480] Item the
onsight and plenishishing [= furnishings and fittings] of his hous In vtencills and domicills [= in
utensils and equipment] with
the abuilziements [= clothing] of his bodie estimat [= estimated] (By and attour [= over and
above] the airship [= heirship])
worth L lib [= £50]
Summa [= sum/total] of the Invent[are] v c xxx lib [£530]
To be dividit in two p[air]ts
Deids pairt [= the part that the dead person can leave as he wishes] is ij c Lxv lib [£265]
followes
The sums of money are in £ Scots, which was worth a twelfth of the £ Sterling.
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Thank You! That will was just gibberish to me.
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^^^^ ;D
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The final page of Thomas Pagan's will - part 1. [It is too long to post in one go, so I have divided it into two parts]
Wee (= we) Sir William ffleming of ferme (= Farme) and
Archibald ffleming fiar (= the person a property is vested in: his father will have the liferent) therof
commissars (= commissaries) of Glasgow Be (= by) the
tenor heirof Ratifie (= ratify) Approve and con-
firme this p[rese]nt testament test[ament]ar and Inventare In swa far as (= insofar as)
nothing omittit (= omitted) nor sett within And give and [ ]
And if neid beis (= need be) Because they have made faith (= made a declaration of good faith) as
use is and fund (= found) ca[utio]une as Law will As ane (= an) act made
theranent (= concerning that) beirs (= bears) att Glasgow the Tuentie fyft day of no[vembe]r
1689 yeirs.
The q[uhi]lk (= which) day In presence of Sir W[illia]m ffleming of ferme (= Farme) and
Archibald ffleming fiar therof commissars of Glasgow compeirit (= appeared)
personallie Johne and James Wallaces mer[chan]ds (= merchants) in Glasgow and
Johne Spreule w[ri]ter (= lawyer) y[ai]r (= there) executors testamentars nominat &
confirmit to the deceast Thomas Pagane mer[chan]d burges
of the said burghe Quho (= who) protestit (= protested) That q[uhai]rfor (= wherefor) goods geir
not as yet come or desperat (= which there is no hope of recovering) debt alreadie knowin (=
known)
That it might be Leasum (= legally allowed) and Lau[fu]ll To Eik (= to make additions to the
confirmed inventory and list of debts) To be
dewlie (= duly) confirm[e]d therwith Payand (= paying) therfor Q[uhi]lk (= which) protestatioune
The saids commissars hes (= has/have) admittit and or[d]anit (= ordained) In swa far (= insofar)
as Law will Q[uhai]rupon (= whereupon) the s[ai]d ex[ecuto]rs askit acts (= asked for an official
record of it to be made)
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The final page of Thomas Pagan's will - part 2.
The q[uhi]lk (= which) day In presence of Sir W[illia]m ffleming of ferm (= Farme)
and Archibald ffleming fiar therof commissars of Glasgow com-
peirit (= appeared) p[er]sonallie Johne mershell elder w[ri]ter in Glasgow pro[curato]r (= agent) for
the p[ar]ties obli-
gatour (= obligatory; legally binding) efternomin[a]t (= afternominated) And for them gave in the
bands (= bonds) of ca[ution]erie
underw[rit]ne (= written below) desiring the samen (= same) to be insert & reg[ist]rat (=
registered) in the books
of the Commissariat of Glasgow to the effect therinspec[ifeit] (= therin-specified) Q[uhi]lk (= which)
the
saids commissars admittit off the q[uhi]lk (= which) band (= bond) of ca[uti]one the haill (= whole)
tenor
followes. Wee (= we) John Wallace tailyeor (= tailor) mer[chan]d (= merchant) in Glasgow
James Wallace mer[chan]d y[ai]r (= there), and Johne Spreule w[ri]ter y[ai]r (= there) ex[ecuto]rs
testamentars nominat and confirmit to umq[uhi]ll (= the late) Thomas Pa=
gane mer[chan]d y[ai]r (= there) heirby Binds and obleis (= obliges) us our airs (= heirs) and
exe[cut]ors
con[junct]llie (= jointly) and se[ver]ally (= severally/individually) our airs (= heirs) and exe[cut]ors
as cautioners hinc inde (= Latin for reciprocally)
for thes actes in the books of the commissariat of Glasgow
That the goods geir debts and soumes (= sums) of mo[n]ey givin up and
confirmit in the defunct (= deceased) Thomas Pagane his prin[cipa]ll (= principal = original)
confirmit
testament shall be made furthcummand (= forthcoming) be (= by) us to all p[ar]ties
havand (= having) entres (= interest) therto as Law will And wee (= we) the s[ai]ds
ex[ecuto]rs fors[ai]d heirby Binds and obleis (= obliges) us and our fors[ai]ds (= foresaids i.e heirs
and executors) To bear
equall burdine (= burden) with uthers (= others, i.e. one another) in the premisses and to releave
uy[e]rs (= others, i.e. one another)
theranent (= regarding the matter) pro rata (= Latin for in proportion) consenting thir (= these)
p[rese]nts (= this present document) be insert and reg[ist]rat (= registered)
Ad futuram rei memoriam (Latin for as a future reminder/record of the matter) and constituts (=
constitutes/appoints) Jon mershell (= John Marshall) w[ri]ter in
Glasgow pro[curato]r (= agent) In witnes q[uhai]rof (= whereof)
thir (= these) p[rese]nts (= this present document) (Writtin be (= by) Johne Smyth w[ri]ter in
Glasgow ar (= are) sub[scribed] (= signed)
as followes att Glasgow the Tuentie fyft day of nov[emb]er 1689 yeirs
Befoir (= before) thir (= these) witnesses the s[ai]d Johne Smyth w[ri]ter heirof, and
James merschell servitor (= servant) to Quintine Reid w[ri]ter in Glasgow
sic su[scribi]t[ur] (Latin for thus signed) James Wallace Jo (= John) Spreule John Wallace
Ja (= James) Mershell witnes J (= John) Smyth Witnes
Throughout the page there are several fillers, squiggles to fill space. These have been omitted.