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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: curtisd on Sunday 26 August 12 22:09 BST (UK)
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I am searching for the ancestors of Honora, I am unsure of her surname but I know from the census that she was born around
1798 in Cork, County Cork, Ireland. She married to John Stephen Marlow (Born 18/10/1793 Nottinghamshire, England).
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Hi there,
Our civil records only began in 1864, so to look for family on someone 70 years before that and not know their surname would be near on impossible.
Have you not gotten any records for the births of any of her children in England, which should contain her surname ?
Tara
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Familysearch shows 2 children....
Henry Marlow bapt 25 Mar 1828 Portsmouth
Richard William Marlow bapt 27 Dec 1829 Portsmouth
Both parents shown as John and Honora Marlow
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They had the following children:
Thomas Marlow born 1822-06-02
Mary Ann Marlow born 1823-09-14
John Marlow born 1825-06-26
Henry Marlow born 1828-03-25
Richard William Marlow born 1829-12-27
Stephen William Marlow born 1832-06-10
Stephen William Marlow married 1861 to Elizabeth Kate Farey.
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Hi there,
Our civil records only began in 1864, so to look for family on someone 70 years before that and not know their surname would be near on impossible.
Have you not gotten any records for the births of any of her children in England, which should contain her surname ?
Tara
I have searched all the counties of England for a marriage on FreeREG. I cannot find any marriage so is it possible that they married in Ireland? Are there any websites where I can search Ireland Birth, Marriage, Deaths?
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I would suggest that the marriage took place in Ireland - the census also shows their eldest child was 'Hannora' bc.1819 Cork, Ireland.
Annette
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Would it be possible to find the marriage or birth of Hannora? I am new to researching Irish ancestors, is there a free Birth Marriage Deaths website? Or can anyone recommend a paid one?
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You are searching for records well before the start of civil records, so you will need to check for parish records. To do this you need to know a fairly detailed location for the baptism of Hanora or marriage for her parents - i.e. the parish, town or townland, as well as the denomination of this particular Marlow family.
see : Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html)
My Ancestor came from Ireland - where do I start? (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,498742.0.html)
If they were RC and lived in the south western part of Co. Cork, then you could try the records on www.irishgenealogy.ie , but note that not all parishes have records back as far as 1819, particularly those in Rural areas.
If they lived in the north eastern part of the county than you could try the RootsIreland - note this is a pay-website.
Shane
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Thank you.
I have taken a look and could not find any birth or marriage records. However I did find an Honora Marlow as a witness to another marriage.
Area - DUBLIN (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - ST. ANDREW
Marriage of MICHAELEM KEARNY of N/R and ANNAM CONNOR of N/R on 6 June 1821
Witness 1 PETRO HOGAN
Witness 2 HONORA MARLOW
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Thank you.
I have taken a look and could not find any birth or marriage records. However I did find an Honora Marlow as a witness to another marriage.
Area - DUBLIN (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - ST. ANDREW
Marriage of MICHAELEM KEARNY of N/R and ANNAM CONNOR of N/R on 6 June 1821
Witness 1 PETRO HOGAN
Witness 2 HONORA MARLOW
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Thank you.
I have taken a look and could not find any birth or marriage records. However I did find an Honora Marlow as a witness to another marriage.
Area - DUBLIN (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - ST. ANDREW
Marriage of MICHAELEM KEARNY of N/R and ANNAM CONNOR of N/R on 6 June 1821
Witness 1 PETRO HOGAN
Witness 2 HONORA MARLOW
I am now researching this line again. Any suggestions?
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family search:
http://www.familysearch.org
Stephen Marlow born 1832, at portsmouth hampshire
John Marlow birth about 1794 address st Mary Notthinghamshire census 1851 Hunts Place Nottinghamshire
when did she die, her maiden name should be on the death certificate.
did you get any of the birth certificates for her children her maiden name should be on them?
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family search:
http://www.familysearch.org
Stephen Marlow born 1832, at portsmouth hampshire
John Marlow birth about 1794 address st Mary Notthinghamshire census 1851 Hunts Place Nottinghamshire
when did she die, her maiden name should be on the death certificate.
did you get any of the birth certificates for her children her maiden name should be on them?
Hello.
I have not got any birth certificates for her children, they were all before 1837? The baptism does not list maiden name. Unless I can find one in Ireland?
I am unsure when she died. I have been searching for burials as well.
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She was alive in 1861. Listed as Norah Marlow, widow, 64, former laundress, still at Hunt's Place, Nottingham. A young couple, George & Dorthey (sic) Walker were with her.
Possible death registration 1865 Nottingham, Honora Marlow. Age at death recorded as 69.
Other variations on the name Honora: Honor, Honour, Honoria, Hanora, Hannah, Ann. Annie. I have 2 in my family and they were recorded with all those names over the course of their lives.
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Honora Marlow death reg'd Mar.1865 Nottingham, can't find death for husband John although Honora is a widow in 1861. He is not the John died 1856 (Halam) nor the one who died 1861 (only 3).
Annette
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John Marlow was recorded as "Greenwich pensioner" on 1851 census. Does this mean he was a retired soldier?
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On his childrens baptisms in Portsmouth he is described as 'Sgt. Royal Marines'.
Annette
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Thank you for the replies.
Should I order the death certificate from GRO?
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I have found the actual death date and burial date before ordering the certificate.
02 February 1865 & 06 February 1865.
Is it likely the GRO one from that date would have a maiden name?
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She was alive in 1861. Listed as Norah Marlow, widow, 64, former laundress, still at Hunt's Place, Nottingham. A young couple, George & Dorthey (sic) Walker were with her.
Possible death registration 1865 Nottingham, Honora Marlow. Age at death recorded as 69.
Other variations on the name Honora: Honor, Honour, Honoria, Hanora, Hannah, Ann. Annie. I have 2 in my family and they were recorded with all those names over the course of their lives.
Thank you for the name variation suggestions. Below appears to be the couples marriage? I don't know if they are relatives.
See other reply for the death and burial date I found. I can also order a burial certificate from somewhere so I'm hoping for a maiden name.
Marriages Jun 1854
Bridges Dorothy Selby Nottingham 7b 325
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I have found the actual death date and burial date before ordering the certificate.
02 February 1865 & 06 February 1865.
Is it likely the GRO one from that date would have a maiden name?
Simple answer is no - English death certificates simply stated name of individual, when/where they died, cause of death, and name of the informant of the death.
Annette
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I received this from the burial report:
Sarah Smart
26 March 1874
Unrecorded
Sarah Smart
25 October 1868
Unrecorded
Honora Marlow
06 February 1865
02 February 1865
Henry Marlow
25 October 1857
22 October 1857
Those are the death and burial dates. The only Smart family I have it a Mary Smart who married one of my Marlow ancestors so unsure if this is a relation? Henry Marlow is most likely the same Henry who was her son.
I might start ordering a few certificates which I don't have anyway to get a more information for my tree.
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1851 census
John Marlow 57
House Marlow 53 (Transcription was wrong it says).
Stephen Marlow 20 (Matches up to son)
William Westberry/Westbury 20 (Estimated born about 1831, listed as lodger). I don't know how or if related.
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I have found the actual death date and burial date before ordering the certificate.
02 February 1865 & 06 February 1865.
Is it likely the GRO one from that date would have a maiden name?
Simple answer is no - English death certificates simply stated name of individual, when/where they died, cause of death, and name of the informant of the death.
Annette
Thank you for answering. I won't order until I need them. Still searching, maybe I'll find something.
Thank you everyone for the suggestions.
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Found this in my notes from 2012 but unsure of it now or if this helps at all.
Name HONORA CONNOR
Date of Birth 1 July 1798 (BASED ON OTHER DATE INFORMATION)
Address OXHILL
Father JOHN CONNOR
Mother ELLEN MORIARTY
Further details in the record
Father Occupation NR
Sponsor 1 JOHN HURLY
Sponsor 2 MARY MORIARTY
Priest REV. D. DWYER
About the record
Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier
2 20 46 KY-RC-BA-449064
Oxhill is near where John Stephen Marlow was born (Northampton). The surname matches the marriage she was a witness to, possible sister.
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So Honora may not have been born in Cork after all?
Ann Connor, the bride at the marriage in Dublin at which a witness was Honora Marlow may have been her sister or cousin?
John Connor, father of Honora at 1798 baptism in Northamptonshire may also have been in military, like Honora's husband. Britain was at war with France. The United Irishmen sought support from Napoleon's France for their planned uprising. 1798 was the year of rebellions in Ireland, culminating in a French invasion. Extra troops were sent to Ireland from Britain throughout the 1790s to keep order and protect the country against an invading French army. If John Connor was a militiaman or regular soldier he could have been backwards and forwards across the Irish Sea and moving around Ireland and Britain. A number of wives accompanied their husbands. Honora may have been mistaken about her place of birth. Cork may have been the first place she remembered living in.
Do you know the name of John Marlow's regiment? His father may have been in same regiment as Honora's father. Were there regiments stationed near Oxhill in 1798?
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It isn't certain yet but there was two records for Stephen William Marlow. One in England and One in Ireland. So it could be the same thing, with two records? Maybe she was baptised as well in England like Stephen William Marlow.
Yes, could be a sister or cousin?
The French occupation of Malta lasted from 1798 to 1800 which was the same period. My connection on Marlow goes Malta if that helps?
Royal Marines Sergeant was listed for John Stephen Marlow, I believe? Then Greenwich Pensioner in Portsmouth.
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I think I found some interesting information.
There are a few John Marlow online pension records but one stands out. However it seems too close to the date that Honora Marlow death in 1865 listed as widow? and he is a Greenwich pensioner before 1864 in the Census?
Name: Private John Marlow
Service End Year: 1864
Regiment: Eighty Seventh REG. OF R. I. Jusiliers
Regimental Number: 717
Then I found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/87th_(Royal_Irish_Fusiliers)_Regiment_of_Foot
It was posted to Gibraltar in 1866 and to Malta in 1868.
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On his childrens baptisms in Portsmouth he is described as 'Sgt. Royal Marines'.
Annette
Could Private John Marlow of Royal Irish Fusiliers have been son of John & Honora? He would have been around 40.
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That would make sense.
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I am trying to view the source image from the index but it won't let me start Fold trial.
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I've found a few on the index I didn't find years ago when I searched.
Name: William Marlow
Age: 21
Birth Date: abt 1863
Birth Place: Cork
Service Start Year: 1884
Regiment: the Royal Irish Rifle
Regimental Number: R.I.R/871
Attestation Paper: Yes
That would appear to be Stephen William Marlow's son.
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Closest I can find is:
Name: Hannah Persels
Marriage by Bann 19 May 1811
Chilvers Coton, Warwickshire, England
Spouse: John Marlow
Would only make sense if her birth date on the census was out by quite a few years and the transcript mentions other local parishes.
I'm searching now for any John Marlow marriages and will compare one by one.
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I have found the actual death date and burial date before ordering the certificate.
02 February 1865 & 06 February 1865.
Is it likely the GRO one from that date would have a maiden name?
Simple answer is no - English death certificates simply stated name of individual, when/where they died, cause of death, and name of the informant of the death.
Annette
I am ordering the certificate now. At least it may confirm any of the census birth dates or places.
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So Honora may not have been born in Cork after all?
Ann Connor, the bride at the marriage in Dublin at which a witness was Honora Marlow may have been her sister or cousin?
John Connor, father of Honora at 1798 baptism in Northamptonshire may also have been in military, like Honora's husband. Britain was at war with France. The United Irishmen sought support from Napoleon's France for their planned uprising. 1798 was the year of rebellions in Ireland, culminating in a French invasion. Extra troops were sent to Ireland from Britain throughout the 1790s to keep order and protect the country against an invading French army. If John Connor was a militiaman or regular soldier he could have been backwards and forwards across the Irish Sea and moving around Ireland and Britain. A number of wives accompanied their husbands. Honora may have been mistaken about her place of birth. Cork may have been the first place she remembered living in.
Do you know the name of John Marlow's regiment? His father may have been in same regiment as Honora's father. Were there regiments stationed near Oxhill in 1798?
I'm looking into this still. Thank you for the information.
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I have found the birth certificate for William Charles Marlow. Born 3rd March 1864 (Registered 23rd March). 7 Union Place. Canal Bank. Rathmines, Dublin South, Dublin.
Father confirmed as Stephen William Marlow. His occupation was Private 10th Hussars. Mother was Elizabeth Farey.
This all adds up with existing data but wondered if the addresses and father rank occupation helps in the search for Honora ancestry?
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I believe John Marlow could of been in the 11th Light Dragoons which was the regiment name before?
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I have now found a Captain John Marlow who was in Malta.
http://website.lineone.net/~remosliema/regiments.htm
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Kerby Hanor — — 1818 Hampshire, Portsmouth Marriages Portsmouth, St Thomas, Hampshire, England
One year before first child. Same church. Is that an Irish name?
******past won't let me login to confirm if the Google summary is correct that it is linked to a John Marlow?
Edit: Sorry. Doesn't seem to be related, the above post for Malta I need to check dates too based on what I found on a Google Book.
There is a Naval Record which mentions Sarah as mother, which could mean that John Marlow is John Stephen Marlow's fathers brother.
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Deaths Sep 1837 (>99%)
MARLOW William Basford 15 277
Deaths Mar 1838 (>99%)
Marlow Eliza Basford 15 309
That is district which covers Nottingham. Listed at GRO as mother maiden name on birth certificate as Whalley.
I might order the PDFs on the chance that they had children later on. I searched for children before 1841 census and the above two looked possible.
Can Henrietta be an alternative spelling?
Baptism of HENRIETTA WHALEY of KEVIN'S STREET
on 18 June 1798
Parish/Church/Congregation - ST. PETER
Area - DUBLIN (COI)
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Searching again National Archives:
Searching again I found out there is another half sibling.
Thomas Marlow. When admitted to Greenwich Hospital School: Not stated.
Applicant born 19 May 1822 and baptised 2 June 1822 in Portsmouth, Southampton. Invited to attend the school July 1833. Siblings: Mary Ann, John, Henry and Richard William. Half brother; Michael[?] Riordan.
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Record set England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
First name(s) Michael
Last name Riordan
Birth year 1816
Baptism year 1816
Parish Soho Square
Diocese Westminster
County Middlesex
Country England
Mother's first name(s) Honora
Mother's last name Lyne
Father's first name(s) Cornelii
Father's last name Riordan
Birth date 14 Jan 1816
Baptism date 21 Jan 1816
Church St Patrick
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Name: Honora Lion
Baptism Age: 0
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 1798
Baptism Date: 25 Jun 1798
Baptism Place: Passage West, Cork, Ireland
Residence Place: Shanbally
Parish Variants: Passage, Passage West and Monkstown
Diocese: Cork and Ross
Father: John Lion
Mother: Catherine Regan
Unsure if this is likely if the above information is likely too.
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I believe John Marlow could of been in the 11th Light Dragoons which was the regiment name before?
Dragoons were cavalry regiments.
(From Wikipedia) Col. Phillip Honeywood's Regt. of Dragoons was formed 1715 at time of 1st Jacobite Rising. Retitled 11th Regt. of Dragoons 1751. Became 11th Regt. of Light Dragoons. Retitled 11th (Prince Albert's Own) Hussars in 1840. (Wedding present from Queen Victoria?)
According to another poster, John Marlow, Honora's husband, was a Royal Marines sergeant. IMO a Royal Marine was unlikely to have switched to a cavalry regiment, so probably a different John Marlow. Royal Marines were formed 1664 as Duke of York & Albany's Maritime Regiment of Foot. James, Duke of York, brother of King Charles, was Admiral of the Fleet. The regiment became known as the Admiral's Regiment. 1755 HM Marine Forces was formed under Admiralty control. It comprised of 3 Divisions, HQs at Portsmouth, Chatham and Plymouth. During the Napoleonic Wars the Royal Marines took part in every notable naval battle and in amphibious actions. In naval battles/skirmishes, they manned guns and fought in boarding parties. They were responsible for security of ship's officers and maintaining discipline of crew. You can see them in action in "Hornblower" TV series, repeated on various channels.
See Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Royal_Marines
Edit. The page is there. I had to click on a couple of others to find it this time.
Without delving deeply, it seems from what you've found out so far, that the Marlow family was a military one for several generations. There were many barracks in County Cork. Islands in Cobh harbour, port of Cork, were garrisoned. One was a prison. Look up Spike Island. More than a few local girls would have married soldiers.
The web-page you found about regiments on Malta is very detailed. Interesting bits about casualties.
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Thank you.
Interesting about Hornblower, I remember watching that ages ago, will take another look.
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I have now found a Captain John Marlow who was in Malta.
http://website.lineone.net/~remosliema/regiments.htm
I found a free PDF on the National Archives for Officers of Royal Artillery. Found John Marlow but can't read the date of birth, no mention of wife or children. Google books has information too which might mean dates are different John Marlow.
I read again and it says died 1848, so it is the wrong John Marlow. Narrows it down a bit.
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Deaths Sep 1837 (>99%)
MARLOW William Basford 15 277
Deaths Mar 1838 (>99%)
Marlow Eliza Basford 15 309
That is district which covers Nottingham. Listed at GRO as mother maiden name on birth certificate as Whalley.
I might order the PDFs on the chance that they had children later on. I searched for children before 1841 census and the above two looked possible.
Can Henrietta be an alternative spelling?
Baptism of HENRIETTA WHALEY of KEVIN'S STREET
on 18 June 1798
Parish/Church/Congregation - ST. PETER
Area - DUBLIN (COI)
I don't know if Henrietta was an alternative for Honora/ Hanora. I suppose it could have been a transcription error.
From researching my own paternal grandma I found that Honor/Honora etc. was a very popular name in second half of 19thC Ireland. It was up there with Bridget, Mary and Catherine. Quite a few in parish registers pre 1850 as well. Trying to track down my maternal 2xGGM, also Honora, before she married, I was overwhelmed by all the girls called Honora and Honor. That was with the correct surname, after 1840 in 1 county.
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Deaths Sep 1837 (>99%)
MARLOW William Basford 15 277
Deaths Mar 1838 (>99%)
Marlow Eliza Basford 15 309
That is district which covers Nottingham. Listed at GRO as mother maiden name on birth certificate as Whalley.
I might order the PDFs on the chance that they had children later on. I searched for children before 1841 census and the above two looked possible.
Can Henrietta be an alternative spelling?
Baptism of HENRIETTA WHALEY of KEVIN'S STREET
on 18 June 1798
Parish/Church/Congregation - ST. PETER
Area - DUBLIN (COI)
I don't know if Henrietta was an alternative for Honora/ Hanora. I suppose it could have been a transcription error.
From researching my own paternal grandma I found that Honor/Honora etc. was a very popular name in second half of 19thC Ireland. It was up there with Bridget, Mary and Catherine. Quite a few in parish registers pre 1850 as well. Trying to track down my maternal 2xGGM, also Honora, before she married, I was overwhelmed by all the girls called Honora and Honor. That was with the correct surname, after 1840 in 1 county.
Thank you for reply. I think it is more likely the Honora Lyne could be the right one. What do you think of the previous posts?
By the way, sorry for all the posts. Trying to keep track of all the information and ideas that I find.
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How does Michael Riordan fit into the mix? Who were his half-brothers? Who were their parents? I got lost at that bit. Also that was London?
What you really need is the marriage of John Marlow to a woman named Honora.
What about Honora Connor, address Oxhill, Northampton? (Post #24)
Daughter Hanora was born in Cork 1819. (post #5) Although I know young widows, especially with a child, tended to marry again quickly.
Was Honora's husband, John Marlow, definitely a Royal Marine sergeant?
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How does Michael Riordan fit into the mix? Who were his half-brothers? Who were their parents? I got lost at that bit. Also that was London?
What you really need is the marriage of John Marlow to a woman named Honora.
What about Honora Connor, address Oxhill, Northampton? (Post #24)
Daughter Hanora was born in Cork 1819. (post #5) Although I know young widows, especially with a child, tended to marry again quickly.
Was Honora's husband, John Marlow, definitely a Royal Marine sergeant?
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14519760
Listed on there for Thomas Marlow. Baptism matches the date and now I know Thomas Marlow birth date. It lists all the siblings I know about except the reference to Michael (I found his baptism online with a mother named Honora, so it must be the correct half brother?)
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Reference: ADM 73/289/43
Description:
Thomas Marlow. When admitted to Greenwich Hospital School: Not stated.
Applicant born 19 May 1822 and baptised 2 June 1822 in Portsmouth, Southampton. Invited to attend the school July 1833. Siblings: Mary Ann, John, Henry and Richard William. Half brother; Michael[?] Riordan.
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Have you seen this website;
The Napoleon Series: Military Subjects. Organization, Strategy and Tactics
www.napoleon-series.org/miliary/c_organization.html
Articles include:
Per Mare Per Terram- The Royal Marine 1793-1815
Regimental Schools and Education in thre British Army in the Napoleonic Era
State of the British Army in 1805: An Overview of Organization and Strength of the British Army in 1805
From this I learned that the Royal Marines were authorized to recruit in Ireland in July 1793 at 3 recruiting stations, Dublin, Waterford and Cork. (Chichester & Burgess Short: The Records and Badges of the British Army)
Another thing I learned was that the 15th Light Dragoons had a female sergeant! Irrelevant to your research, but interesting.
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I will read it. Thank you.
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Reference: ADM 73/289/43
Description:
Thomas Marlow. When admitted to Greenwich Hospital School: Not stated.
Applicant born 19 May 1822 and baptised 2 June 1822 in Portsmouth, Southampton. Invited to attend the school July 1833. Siblings: Mary Ann, John, Henry and Richard William. Half brother; Michael[?] Riordan.
Does the above help with John Marlow being Royal Marines? Or does it only prove that he was the son of a Greenwich Pensioner? Which would mean that John Marlow was either Royal Marines or Royal Navy?
The baptism did list as Royal Marines?
Was Honora's husband, John Marlow, definitely a Royal Marine sergeant?
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There is John Marlow listed with a wife as Mary which isn't the right one? Or is it?
John Marlow 1803-10 P M Defiance
John Marlow 1806 Private Marine Defiance
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Reference: ADM 73/289/43
Description:
Thomas Marlow. When admitted to Greenwich Hospital School: Not stated.
Applicant born 19 May 1822 and baptised 2 June 1822 in Portsmouth, Southampton. Invited to attend the school July 1833. Siblings: Mary Ann, John, Henry and Richard William. Half brother; Michael[?] Riordan.
Checking back to reply #3 I see that Mary Ann + her brothers were children of John & Honora Marlow. Now the mist has cleared! So Michael Riordan was son of Honora from her previous marriage/relationship.
What a pity you can't view details of that record on NA website. I've read what's there for some of the other applicants to the school. Some include parents' marriage. One boy was rejected because he couldn't read. Will you be able to order a copy?
As to whether it means his father, John Marlow was definitely a Royal Marine, it depends on the admission criteria of the school.
So you finally have a surname for Honora. She was Honora Lyon or Lyon. That's one of the things that's good about Catholic baptisms, they often include mother's maiden name. Does the marriage record say if she was married to Cornelius? I'd intended earlier to ask what religion Honora and John Marlow were. I wonder if Cornelius was also a Royal Marine?
You've even got a bonus in Honora's mother's maiden name. She'll be a lot more difficult to find. That might be a 10 year search.
I once found a website for regiments stationed in Cork but I don't have a note of it and could't find it again. It was in connection with a query on here last year.
Persistence paid off. Well done! :)
Apologies for any spelling mistakes. Spellcheck seems to have stopped working.
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Thank you.
Great to hear you think I have the correct Honora. Did you see my second post where I found. This place is close to the harbour where there were garrisons?
Name: Honora Lion
Baptism Age: 0
Event Type: Baptism
Birth Date: 1798
Baptism Date: 25 Jun 1798
Baptism Place: Passage West, Cork, Ireland
Residence Place: Shanbally
Parish Variants: Passage, Passage West and Monkstown
Diocese: Cork and Ross
Father: John Lion
Mother: Catherine Regan
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Yes, I will be ordering the school admission. Hopeful it will mention a marriage as it all helps.
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On his childrens baptisms in Portsmouth he is described as 'Sgt. Royal Marines'.
Annette
That was reply #6 in answer to my mentioning he was Greenwich Pensioner in occupation column on census. So definitely Royal Marine. That's logical if he was stationed at Portsmouth for a long time. According to that Wikipedia article I referred to earlier, 3 Divisions of Royal Marines were formed in 1755, HQs at Portsmouth, Chatham and Plymouth. Strength was vastly increased from start of war with France 1793, then greatly reduced again after peace in 1815. There should be a record of which division was at Portsmouth at the time of births of the Marlow children (and more importantly at time of conception) to identify which John belonged to. Then you can track movements before & after. There may be more information on that military website, or from other sources.
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There is John Marlow listed with a wife as Mary which isn't the right one? Or is it?
John Marlow 1803-10 P M Defiance
John Marlow 1806 Private Marine Defiance
If age on census was approximately correct your John would have been only 9 or 10 in 1803. It's a common name. There were thousands of Royal Marines at the time, so quite likely there were more than 1 John Marlow.
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Re post #56 about residence of Honora's parents being near harbour in Cork and consequently near garrisons. My bet is that Cornelius Riordan was a soldier or sailor as well.
(My grandma Honora's 1st husband was a soldier stationed at the town barracks.)
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There is a Cornelius Riordan who is listed as military but not sure if same one.
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Found one on NA.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8767074
Then using the alias on another website I get:
Cornelius Reardon Born 1801 Service Number 406 54th Regt Of Foot Cork.
Edit: Found the service record on the other website too.
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Found one on NA.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8767074
Then using the alias on another website I get:
Cornelius Reardon Born 1801 Service Number 406 54th Regt Of Foot Cork.
Edit: Found the service record on the other website too.
There was probably more than 1 of that name as well. He's a bit young, younger than Honora. I know they could marry very young then. He's a possible.
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First name(s) Cornelius
Last name Reardon
Birth year 1801
Birth parish St Barrie's
Birth county Cork
Birth country Ireland
Service number 406
Regiment 54th Regt Of Foot
Year 1826
Attestation date 03 Mar 1826
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Only baptism I can find are 1799 and 1800 so he is a bit older than the calculated figure on website I assume.
First name(s) Cornelius
Last name Riordan
Birth year -
Baptism year 1800
Baptism date 15 Jan 1800
Parish St. Finbarr's (South), Cork City
Alternative parish names Christ Church, Christchurch, South, South , Cork, St. Finbarr's South, Cork, St. Finbarr's Sth, Cork, St. John of Jerusalem, St. Nicholas
Diocese Cork and Ross
County Cork
Country Ireland
Father's first name(s) Jno
Father's last name Riordan
Mother's first name(s) Mary
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I'll order the National Archive entry now.
Now to see if I can find any other information to verify the Honora Lion baptism... what are your thoughts Maiden Stone?
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Re post #64 Cornelius Reardon. If that was the one who was father of Michael Riordan, Honora's son, then either they didn't marry or Honora was a bigamist when she married John Marlow. That's providing she married John. Since Michael was Riordan in baptism register I'd assume his parents were married. Or else they lied to the priest. Was what you posted of Michael's baptism (about 3 pages ago) a transcript? If so, you need to see image of baptism register. I once found a batch of baptism transcripts from an Irish Catholic parish in which the transcriber had misinterpreted them and transcribed each child with the mother's maiden name. ???
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Yes it was a transcript.
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Re post #64 Cornelius Reardon. If that was the one who was father of Michael Riordan, Honora's son, then either they didn't marry or Honora was a bigamist when she married John Marlow. That's providing she married John. Since Michael was Riordan in baptism register I'd assume his parents were married. Or else they lied to the priest. Was what you posted of Michael's baptism (about 3 pages ago) a transcript? If so, you need to see image of baptism register. I once found a batch of baptism transcripts from an Irish Catholic parish in which the transcriber had misinterpreted them and transcribed each child with the mother's maiden name. ???
The transcript seems to be fine but take a look too if you want please in case I've missed something? Can I upload as I've paid for the copy?
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Attached.
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Michael's parents were married according to the baptism register.
Die 21 Januari 1816 Baptizatus fuit Michael
On the 21st day of Jan. 1816 was baptised Michael
filius Cornelii Riordan + Honora (Lyne conj)*
son of Cornelius Riordan + Honor (Lyne married)
natus fuit die 14th Januari 1816
(who) was born 14th day of Jan. 1816
Patrini Riordan fuere
Godparents of Riordan were
Dionysius Lynch + Joanna Harrington
Dionysius Lynch + Joan/Jane/Joanna Harrington
A me Ed Norris
by me Ed Norris
* conj. is abbreviation for conjugam, married.
Dionysius in Ireland is I think Jeremiah in everyday life, but I may be wrong.
As they were married then Cornelius should have died sometime between 1815 when Michael was conceived and 1819 when Honorora''s daughter by John Marlow was born in Cork. (Are we sure that a) daughter Honora/Hanora was born in Cork 1819 + b) that she was a child of the marriage to John Marlow? (Hanora b. Cork 1819 was mentioned in an early post, I noticed it when I read from the beginning today.) If Cornelius didn't die then Honora either was a bigamist or didn't marry John Marlow.
Spellcheck is working again. It's queried most of the Latin words. ;D
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I couldn't find the baptism of Cornelius Riordan, 15th Jan 1800 in St. Finbarr's baptism register on National Library of Ireland site. There was however a John Riordan baptised on 16th Jan., son of John Riordan + Mary Duggan of Ballintemple (couldn't read place name properly). Sponsors Honora Sullivan + Joanna Duggan. Where did you get that baptism record?
There were 2 Cornelius Riordan baptisms in Bandon, Co. Cork, 1795 & 1796 on Irish Genealogy site. More Cork ones are to be added.
I did a search for Honora Lyon etc in Cork on there. A few baptisms in 1790s. Also Mary and Ellr Lyon. Godmother of a Honora Lyne in 1791 at SS Peter & Paul in Cork was Honora Lyne.
There was a marriage at St. Finbarr, Cork 1796 of Honora Lyne to Cors Riordan. Witness was Cors Riordan. I assume "Cors" was Cornelius.
That's to show how common all those names were.
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Found one on NA.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8767074
Then using the alias on another website I get:
Cornelius Reardon Born 1801 Service Number 406 54th Regt Of Foot Cork.
Edit: Found the service record on the other website too.
The Cornelius Riordan/Reardon in that National Archives record was aged 30 at discharge. Under that are years 1826-1841. Were those his years of service? If so, he was born around 1810/1. 16 seems a likely age to enlist.
You might be better to leave the search for origin of Cornelius for now. There may be no record of his birth and his marriage to Honora. When you see the Greenwich school admission record there may be a date for marriage of Honora to John Marlow. If so that will give you a time- frame for possible death of Cornelius.
Bear in mind that a regiment may have had favourite areas where it recruited. In that case, by law of averages, it would have men with same name. A man might follow his father, uncle or cousin into a regiment. Some of these would have the same name.
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Michael's parents were married according to the baptism register.
Die 21 Januari 1816 Baptizatus fuit Michael
On the 21st day of Jan. 1816 was baptised Michael
filius Cornelii Riordan + Honora (Lyne conj)*
son of Cornelius Riordan + Honor (Lyne married)
natus fuit die 14th Januari 1816
(who) was born 14th day of Jan. 1816
Patrini Riordan fuere
Godparents of Riordan were
Dionysius Lynch + Joanna Harrington
Dionysius Lynch + Joan/Jane/Joanna Harrington
A me Ed Norris
by me Ed Norris
* conj. is abbreviation for conjugam, married.
Dionysius in Ireland is I think Jeremiah in everyday life, but I may be wrong.
As they were married then Cornelius should have died sometime between 1815 when Michael was conceived and 1819 when Honorora''s daughter by John Marlow was born in Cork. (Are we sure that a) daughter Honora/Hanora was born in Cork 1819 + b) that she was a child of the marriage to John Marlow? (Hanora b. Cork 1819 was mentioned in an early post, I noticed it when I read from the beginning today.) If Cornelius didn't die then Honora either was a bigamist or didn't marry John Marlow.
Spellcheck is working again. It's queried most of the Latin words. ;D
Thank you for transcribing.
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Where did you get that baptism record?
Find****** for Michael Riordan and An****** for Honora Lion
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The image of Michael Riordan's baptism you posted was an image of the original church baptism register, not a transcript. That's why I had to translate it. A transcript may have errors or may not be complete.
The main reason I wanted to look at it was to see if it mentioned if the parents were married, which it did.
My other reasons for viewing an image of register rather than a transcript are to check for errors in transcription, notes added to the entry, browse pages looking for potential relatives, get an idea of how common the surnames were and possibly learn a bit more about the community served by the church.
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Thank you.
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Record set England Roman Catholic Parish Baptisms
First name(s) Michael
Last name Riordan
Birth year 1816
Baptism year 1816
Parish Soho Square
Diocese Westminster
County Middlesex
Country England
Mother's first name(s) Honora
Mother's last name Lyne
Father's first name(s) Cornelii
Father's last name Riordan
Birth date 14 Jan 1816
Baptism date 21 Jan 1816
Church St Patrick
You said you're unsure if this was likely to be the correct Michael. You're wise to be unsure. The only evidence you have is that his mother's name was Honora. As we know, Honora was a popular name in Ireland at the time. Michael features among the most common Irish names. Riordan is a very common name. So, putting the 3 together, there may have been a lot of babies named Michael Riordan born in those years, many without baptism records.
Until you know more about Michael Riordan, e.g. country + approximate year of birth, you'll be catching red herrings. Add to that events around the possible time of his conception & birth, the end of a long major European war with serving and discharged soldiers & sailors on the move, followed by years of widespread harvest failures throughout Europe, leading to famine, unemployment, economic depression, cuts in wages, civil unrest and government fears of a revolution in Britain. It was an unstable time.
Besides all that, Michael Riordan was Catholic, or at least, the one who was baptised at St. Paul, Soho Square was. Whether your Michael Riordan was born & baptised in Ireland or England, if he was R.C. it's hit & miss if his baptism was recorded, and if it was, whether the record survived. Even if it did survive, if it was an English R.C. register, that it made it to an archive. Even if it got that far, it may never have been transcribed and therefore no transcripts online. Even if it was transcribed, some of it may have been illegible or damaged, there may have been individual entries, pages, years and even runs of years missing. I've come across all those things with my Irish and English Catholic ancestors, 18th-20th century. There's an entire decade of the early 19th century missing from the Catholic mission registers in an English town with a large R.C. population, of which my ancestors comprised a sizeable proportion, because the priest in charge was in poor health for years. Entries are missing from the years which were kept. (See Catholic Family History Society website for English Catholics and National Library of Ireland for coverage of R.C. parishes there.) Catholicism was illegal in Britain and Ireland until 1790 and it was another 40 years before Catholics gained (almost) equal rights. Even after that period England was a mission country until R.C. dioceses were set up again in 1850. Some areas without large or longstanding R.C. populations had no Catholic churches. Priests held Mass in houses or schoolrooms or rooms above pubs. They would baptise babies at home. The register would have been a notebook. They might have lost bits of paper or forgot to write things in the notebook. One of these priests was a cousin of my 2xGGF. His own baptism, around 1821 is one of those missing, and his parent's marriage and baptism of his grandmother 50 years earlier (my 4GGM).
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Thank you for your response.
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I ordered the school admission report earlier today. I'll update when National Archives contact me.
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I have now found this which is not digitised yet. I might order a page check.
Reference: ADM 193/9
Description:
Subseries within ADM 193 - ROYAL MARINE ARTILLERY DIVISION, PORTSMOUTH
Register of Marriages and Baptisms
Date: 1810-1853
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I think I found John Marlow's regiment/division.
First name(s) John
Last name Marlow
Rank Colour Sgt.
Ship or unit RM, Portsmouth Div.
Sub unit 85th Company
Location Portsmouth
Archive reference (ADM) 96/443
Record set British Royal Navy Personnel 1831
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Documents from National Archives arrived. School admission report was more detailed than expected. Attached are the important pages as it lists marriage and it appears to say Riordan but I don't know if I am reading that correctly?
Also the parish, is it in Ireland or is this Portsmouth?
It also mentions Michael Riordan as being 14 in (1830?) so that would be (1816?) Which is same year as the baptism I previously found.
https://imgur.com/a/LDmnW
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1st document. Is this application for admission to the school or a certificate in support of the application? Was this document from 1830? I couldn't see/read a date
Printed section at bottom reads "This to certify that Thomas Marlow, son of John Marlow by Hanora his wife, of this parish, is a real object of charity" I can't read the signatures. They were of Minister and Churchwardens "of the parish of Portsmouth in the county of Southampton".
2nd column of form has names & ages of other children. Mary Ann Marlow aged 7, John 15 or 5?, Henry 3?. Then is it Rich'd? I'm not sure of surname of Rich'd. Could it be Riordan? (I meant to check children's names on earlier pages of this thread.)* I couldn't decide whether it was 1 or a dash after his name where other children's ages were. Last was "Michael Riordan, wife's son by former marriage aged 14 years".
3rd column residence: Warblington (?) Street, Portsmouth
Heading of a column further along had questions about whether father was still in HM's Service and if mother was alive or dead. Answers: "Actually in the Service"; "Mother living".
Heading of last column was "Names of the King's ships which the father had served with date of entry" (___ ___2 words I can't read) "as can be ___". He was a Private on first 3 ships listed: H.M.S. Tamar (?) Sept. 1809 (?); H.M.S. Shar.... (?) May 1815; H.M.S. Primrose March 1817. He was Corporal on the next ship (name began with Sh?), entered July 1820. He entered his next ship as Sergeant in August 1823; name of ship began with C (?). He was on 2 ships in 1825. First of these might have begun with W; No idea what last was.
You'd probably deciphered the above already.
You should be able to find out more about admission criteria for Greenwich School and scholarships for poor children.
*Edit. I've looked back to earlier posts and found answer in Reply #2. Richard William Marlow born or baptised 1829. It could be 1 for 1 year or a dash signifying aged under 1 after his name on the school application form.
Thought: Daughter Hannora not on list. She was on a census as born in Cork around 1819. She came after Michael and before Mary Ann in chronological order. She may have been living elsewhere in 1830 or may not have been a daughter of John & Honora.
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1st document. Is this application for admission to the school or a certificate in support of the application?
Related thread with replies here ...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=788097.0
All the documents posted are the standard forms needed to accompany an application to Greenwich Hospital School at this period.
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Letter of John Marlow
Royal Marine Barracks
Portsmouth
30th Nov 1830 (?)
Sir,
On presenting myself as a member of a benefit Society at this place, I was told my marriage certificate must be produced before I could be admitted.
When they were informed it was lodged at Greenwich they said a copy vouched by me would be sufficient. May I hope, sir, under the circumstances you will be pleased to cause a copy to be sent to me, or the original certificate, which I will return when done with.
I remain sir
your obedient very humble servant
John Marlow
Sergeant Royal (?) (or) Regt (?) ____ (Marines?)
It doesn't say whom the addressee was.
He had better handwriting than some of those whose occupation involved writing.
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Thanks for link to other thread where certificate of proof of marriage has been posted.