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General => Technical Help => Reference Library => Topic started by: Berlin-Bob on Saturday 01 September 12 10:26 BST (UK)
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Original title: "Possible database: German Pork Butchers"
Hi all "german pork butcher" descendants and fans,
RichardFunk mentioned here that he is compiling a list:
I've started recording German pork butchers as I find them and adding them to a list I'm building up.
Following on from the addition of the Occupation to the Surname Interests Table (SIT)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,612580.0.html
I've been thinking about how to construct a database for the German Pork Butchers (GPB). Perhaps we can find a way to include Richard's list, making it available to all RootsChatters.
So far:
I've filtered out all the names from these topics:
Topic: RootsChat Topics: German Pork Butchers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,509347.0.html
and now have a list of 30 Rootschatters searching for 79 surnames.
One possibility I now have is to enter them all into the SIT (using a simple SQL operation), with
Country: Germany
County: State of origin in Germany
Place: Place of origin in Germany
Occupation: German Pork Butchers
Text: Place(s) of settlement in Britain.
i.e. Country, County Place = From ...; Text = To ...
I also have another 11 names which were mentioned in the topics, but without specific connections to RootsChatter-Families.
Curtis / / / Lincoln
Thompson / / / Burnley
Haffner / / / Burnley
Weegman / / / Otley
Hertrich / / / South Shields
Hohenrein / Baden-Württemburg / Morsbach / Hull
Roll / Baden-Württemburg / Künzelsau /
Vogtherr / Baden-Württemburg / Blaufelden / Sunderland
shy / / /
scheu / / /
Breuning / Baden-Württemburg / Hohebach / West Bowling
(If anybody can link these to RootsChatter Families please let me know)
Another possibility is to compile a list similar to the sugar bakers database
http://www.mawer.clara.net/history.html
with a column for Contributor (RootsChat name) and a column for "Family connection". The RootsChat name of any family member could be added here.
This would have the advantage that all names can be added, even if no family connection is known, and if a connection is found later, that can then be edited in.
All feedback welcome :)
Bob
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Ok, I'm not very good at understanding how this web site works, but i am interested in contributing to a data base or list, if that is what you want to set up. I have interest in Steinbach (Hull, Otley, Lincolnshire and Durham) Ehrenfried's who settled in Lincolnshire) Wittmann (Hull) Bauman, (Bowman) Schellenberg, Dagenbach - all these families intermarried/interacted and play a part in my family tree.
Is this of any help. I was also interested that you had Weegman down for Hull, rather than Otley. Were there Weegman's in Hull?
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Hi Bob,
How I missed this thread is beyond me.....
Bob, I like the idea of a database for German pork butchers. I, like Richard Funk, have many German pork butchers, not related (as yet) to me, on my hard disk with their birth origins in Germany, i.e. Hohenlohe, Schwäbisch Hall, etc.
I lately thought of sharing my finds by opening up a Tree on the Ancy site and calling it Pork Butchers from Hohenlohe and surroundings.
One thing I have found is that a lot of the butchers from the Northern counties moved to Nottinghamshire and Norfolk from Yorkshire and back again.
One area that really snows with PB's is Liverpool. I have at least two of my ancestors there in Widnes.
On my direct line "Pfisterer", it ends with Johann Friedrich Pfisterer, Master Butcher in Mexborough who died 1875. His two sons, Charles Frederick moved to Flint River, Des Moines, Iowa and Christian Louis (my grandfather) ran a garage, taxi service, cycle shop etc. in Northwich, Cheshire following John Heinzmann, his first cousin, to Northwich, Cheshire who was a Pork Butcher.
Just aside:
I recently found my grandmother Margaretha Brück's 2 year younger brother who was working for the Hohenreins in 1861in England and in that year he emigrated to the USA and I had seen him but couldn't prove the blood line until I found him on the 1925 in Iowa Census in which mother's and father's names are required. He was my man!!! I have found all his children and their spouses and am about to send off a letter to his granddaughter to establish our relationship.
However I can help on this project, you can count on me.
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Hi vanny,
I can't claim 100% accuracy on this, as I was working fast and trying to filter aout the names and places, and who they "belong" to. I've corrected it now.
thanks,
Bob
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To all,
I don't need to know the names at the moment, this topic is just for gathering ideas how a database could be set up and what it should /could include. And who can enter data, and how, etc, etc.
There are (at least) two possible approaches:
1) the SIT, where people enter their surname interests. This doesn't allow for adding names which aren't related but are also german pork butchers.
2) a database of all german pork butchers, regardless of where the information came from.
As an example, here are the columns from the sugar bakers database:
NAME
FORENAME
ORIGIN (Place)
DETAILS / EVENT
ADDRESS - Business, (Home)
LOCATION (in UK)
YEAR
SOURCE (census, newspaper, contributor)
new:
Contributor: RootsChat name as profile link
Related to: as RootsChat is about "connections" I would at least include a column, where RootsChatters can register their family interests in this name.
Keep the ideas coming, as I'm only at the planning stage for now.
thanks,
Bob
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I think the 2nd!
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I am also very much in favour of establishing such a database.
I agree with 0113vanny. Or does RichardFunk have a better or some additional ideas, as he has already begun to compile such a database? Perhaps you should ask him?
Best wishes
Histres
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Hi Histres,
Richard is already in contact with me via PM and is also going to discuss
this idea with the AGFHS (Anglo-German Family History Society).
Gruß,
Bob
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Hi All,
not enough feedback yet for a specific database, but for starters I've added all the names from the "german pork butcher" topics to the SIT.
One possibility I now have is to enter them all into the SIT (using a simple SQL operation), with
Country: Germany
County: State of origin in Germany
Place: Place of origin in Germany
Occupation: German Pork Butchers
Text: Place(s) of settlement in Britain.
i.e. Country, County Place = From ...; Text = To ...
I've used the structure I mentioned above. This may mean that some records are now duplicated, in particular, with country, county etc being the place of settlement in Britain rather than place of origin, but we have plenty of space, so that is no problem (for the SIT). They are your records, so feel free to edit them as you wish.
To view the list, just click on the "Surnames"-button at the top of the page, then "Advanced Search" and select "German Pork Butchers" in the drop-down menu for Occupations
regards,
Bob
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nothing comes up! I must be doing something wrong.
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Hello Vanessa
Click on Surnames - Advanced Search - scroll down to occupations - choose Pork Butchers on the pull down menu and click on show results - I've seen it!
Gill
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it worked thank you. I was putting England is for country for some reason . . .. .
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So this gives a list of names that people on this forum are interested in, but it does't build up a list of names of all those that came - we all know of many more, that people new to the site might be looking for. What do we do with this list now? Do we add other names that we have links with? sorry to ask such naive questions.
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So this gives a list of names that people on this forum are interested in, but it does't build up a list of names of all those that came
This is why I was (also) thinking of a more general database, so that the names of "non-family members" can also be added. Also, the occupation info. in the SIT is more for family occupations, whereas a proper database could also include forenames of several members of the same family.
This SIT "mini database" is just a step in this direction - and as an experiment for me, to see if it could be done in this way. Now I know how to ..., if there is enough interest I could do the same for .... for instance: framework knitters or corkcutters or or any other long topics, where somebody has set the question "do you have any XYZ ancestors ?"
Bob
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Ok, I shall add some names of PB's who married into or who have links with mine.
thank you.
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I've just seen the new forum listing the names of Pork Butchers and I just wanted to say that I have used the search facility to see what happens. I got two entries, the same. I clicked on my username and saw a list to all my posts. This could be useful for anyone searching the names I am associated with. So then, a good idea, Bob. :)
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My thoughts on the database are as follows. I think everyone is in agreement that some kind of central database for pork butchers is the way forward. Between us we have a huge amount of information, and it has potential to be of genuine historical and personal interest.
I'm not very familiar with the options available on this site for databases. For maximum use the database should be able to search multiple fields. The categories that I have are: "Surname", "Forname(s)", "DOB", DOD", "Origin Point" (village they were from), "Town" (British town(s) they settled in), "Address(es)", "Links" (to other pork butchers) and "Earliest Recorded in Britain".
To make best use of the information it would be handy to be able to perform field specific searches: for example, be able to type 'Sheffield' into the "Town" field and a list of all the Sheffield pork butchers comes up, or type a specific address in "Address(es)" and it list all the pork butcher occupants of that address, or more simply type a surname into "Surname" and it bring up all the pork butchers with that surname. This would let us analyse the information quickly and in ways that we can't in it's current format. It would, for example, allow us to quickly analyse how many pork butchers appeared in Britian during a certain time frame.
Does RootsChat allow for this type of database?
If not then I would suggest a seperate website like the sugar baker one, but make it MS Access based rather than MS Excel based.
What do we think?
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Hi Richard,
thanks for the feedback.
In principle a similar database to the Surname Interests Table (SIT) should do the job. We can search on any one or on several fields, and wild-card searches are also possible. http://surname.rootschat.com/sit-search.php
I would possibly extend your "origin point" to 3 columns (country, state, place) for more detailed searching.
And if the database is held on RootsChat then I would definitely want to add a "Contributor" column (RootsChat user name as Link to profile) and a "Family Connections" column ( also RootsChat user name)
I think (as in the SIT) the "contributor" has full write access to his records and everyone else can only read them.
The "Family Connections" column would include a check-box, so any RootsChat member viewing the entries could tick the box to indicate that he has connections to this family.
I have some experience in converting excel table and text tables to SQL scripts, so we may be able to incorporate some existing lists this way, rather than typing in everything by hand. [...] for starters I've added all the names from the "german pork butcher" topics to the SIT.
[...]
To view the list, just click on the "Surnames"-button at the top of the page, then "Advanced Search" and select "German Pork Butchers" in the drop-down menu for Occupations
Looking forward to more feedback.
regards,
Bob
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Histres sent me a link to a house lexicon he has contributed to.
http://www.schwaebischhall.de/buergerstadt/geschichte/haeuserlexikon/gebaeudeverzeichnis.html
It is in german, but that's not an issue, as he only sent it as an idea for the format of a database.
I'm adding it here so we can include these ideas in our discussion.
regards,
Bob
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I see the RootsChat system seems to do what I had envisaged. It would probably be simpler to use your system than set up a seperate one. Do we use the base in the link you posted but add in the other categories? Would it be that particular search interface with other categories added or would there be a special link to a seperate searchable database for pork butchers? I ask because a few people have had difficulty using it and if pork butchers are sharing the same interface with all searches it may lead to lots of categories that are unnecessary for other searches, for say cork cutters, who may not need "Origin Point" or "First Recorded in Britain" as a category. Hope you understand my meaning in that, it's a bit difficult to explain.
I agree that some of the fields I have specified could be split and made more specific, the places where they settled could also be split in counties, so we could bring up a list of all the pork butchers in Lancashire for instance. I also agree that we should add a contributor column.
As for format, my list is currently in a text based format (MS Word) in a column.
Just to clarify the way information is contributed. The person that enters the information, say I enter my great grandfather George Funk, and put in his details, is the only one who can edit it? What if, say, my cousin is looking and finds that George is only his English name and his real name is Johann Georg Michael and wants to change it. Would my cousin be able to do that? Or more simply if I left the "Address(es)" category blank, could someone else fill it in?
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Just remembered a site that I like:
http://www.sheffieldindexers.com/DirectoriesIndex.html
It has multiple searchable fields and is simple. This is the sort of thing I have in mind. It also has the option to use other databases - directories, burials, baptisms, etc. This maybe illustrates my previous question better. There are different searchable fields on the interface for different databases, for example "Cemetery" is on burials, but isn't necessary for directories. Can RootsChat change the search interface for pork butchers, and if more databases of this type are set up for them? As I said cork cutters probably won't need the same categories as pork butchers and vice versa.
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Hi Richard,
I was just thinking through a few ideas while you were posting, so I'll reply straight away :)
As the SIT is Surname-orientated, I think a separate database, with entry and search facilities similar to the SIT, would be better than extending the SIT to cope with all the extra information needed for a person-orientated database.
For contributions I can think of the following possibilities (there are probably more):
- the contributor enters the data in an online form (as in the SIT)
- Contributions could also be sent as an excel or word file, which I could then enter in the database directly per SQL
That is a good question, "who is allowed to edit data ?" My original idea was to say only the original contributor. I don't know how we could track people editing entries otherwise. We could try leaving it open for all members to edit, but I feel it may be safer to limit it to the original contributor. Perhaps in such cases as you mentioned, anyone with corrections (not necessarily a relative) could contact the contributor (the name would be the profile link) and inform him there.
We can decide later if a more open access method would be better.
By the way, your question brings up another question - should we supply columns for "original" and "anglicised" surnames and forenames ??
regards,
Bob
ps. just seen your latest post. I'll go and look at it now :)
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Just thinking out loud .....
I've made up a small excel table just to visualise some possibilities. You'll all have to imagine them as web tables in a browser ...
If we add all the data we can think of we could end up with a table looking something like the first attachment. This would be too wide to look at without scrolling, so I suggest a smaller table to show search results and then click on any name for more info, as in the second attachment.
Opinions ?
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I've attached an image of the top of my present table on MS Word. As you can see some of the categories need spliting up.
I like your idea of clicking on the name for more information. My table is wider than an A4 sheet, and with other categories it would be wider. One category we could possibly do without is "Origin Country" as we are only focusing on German pork butchers.
I like the idea of having an initial screen with more basic information on. In addition to the categories you propose on this screen, we could add DOB, as many of the pork butchers have the same names, so it helps avoid confusion. Whenever I put links to a person in I always put their DOB in brackets after, although for our purposes here I just use the year rather than the specific date.
One thing that might be handy is if connecting families could have hyperlinks. My data is very person centric, so it lists who a person marries, who they work for, who works for them, who they are friends with etc. I therefore only link by people rather than families, as there are often several Schmidt families, for example, who are unrelated. If we could hyperlink all the connected people it would make it very easy to explore links, rather than typing in the names into the search, you could go straight to their file.
The idea of having a limited number of fields displayed at first would also be good for address searches, as you could see at an easy glace who was associated with the address.
If we adopted this format I guess we would need a newwebsite to host it?
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If we adopted this format I guess we would need a newwebsite to host it?
All my ideas so far are for a database on Rootschat :)
If the basic concept works, it should be easy to use the same database for other occuptions and adjust the input and output accordingly.
Bob
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Still thinking out loud .... ;D
I've made a copy of the SIT software and now I'm modifying it (recycled software ;D ) to try out some of the ideas we are talking about here. This will help me/us to see what sort of problems could arise, what questions we still need to ask, and (already !) possible improvements.
For testing I'm using the data I filtered out from several pork butcher topics, as described in the topic opener.
Looking at Richard's data, he has several addresses for some of his people. In order to be able sort on address I've allowed 3 different addresses per person, and we'll see how it goes.
The "summary table (as described in reply #22) would then look like the image attached here. To fit more data in, I'm using abbreviations for countries and counties (e.g. BWU = Baden-Württemburg, english counties with Chapman Codes, etc) ). These can be written out in full in the "page view"
Bob
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Hello,
to all those who are thinking about a possible database for German pork butchers in Great Britain and Ireland.
I think Berlin-Bob is on a good way with his proposal of an alphabetical list with the main aspects of information combined with a second sheet that contains the details.
I attach an extract of my list that I have compiled.
Best wishes
Histres
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I agree with Histres and Richard about the database.
Attached is one of my data sheets:
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I have "rounded up the usual suspects"(*) and stuffed them into a database.
"Visiting hours" are http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/index.php ;D
This is still very much a trial version to gather feedback before I program something that could be fantastic (as software), but not really useful for genealgists.
At the moment only the "Quick search" is available, with page views of individuals. I am still working on the input side.
(*)See first message in topic. I have also added 3 from me (under C), although I have no pork butchers in my family. They are simply there to try out various options.
Regards,
Bob
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looking good so far Bob!
I like the idea of different known addresses, but perhaps there could scope to put dates for residency e.g.
Abode 1 12 Strutton Gardens 1861 - 1881
Abode 2 221b Baker Street 1885 - 1891
Abode 3 10 Downing Street 1901 - 1905
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Just to summarise:
Further work includes:
- 1) "filling in" the missing buttons (Advanced search, Add/Edit, and Show others ..)
- 2) Adding tool-tips to any search links. e.g hovering over "BWU" would give a tool-tip "Baden-Württemburg (click to select all)"
- 3) Adding a button on the "Researcher(s)" line in the page view: "Add me to researcher list".
I am interestested on your views here. I think flagging up an interest in any name should include all with that surname.
Your opinions ?
- 4) adding a soundex search (needs a special routine for german soundex because of umlaut vowels)
- 5) Possibly a button for a "Contributor" to allow other researchers editing-access ?? (this is for much later - if at all ! ;D )
- 6) implementing any other good ideas you all come up with :)
Bob
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1) "filling in" the missing buttons (Advanced search, Add/Edit, and Show others ..)
"Show others .." is now available ("Show all with my name interests"). It works, but it needs more names in the database to really show it's uses.
The database can now be accessed by clicking on
- the Reference Library button at the top of the page, and then
- Databases for Special Interest Groups
Bob
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Hi Spidermonkey,
The address fields are simply text fields, so you will be able to include any further details as you wish :)
(see for example RichardFunk's list in reply #23)
I've added some more details to Charlotte Cutts just to illustrate this :)
regards,
Bob
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Bob,
I've been reading all about the proposed database; it is a really good idea and it will prove very useful, I'm sure.
I am not technical so I was wondering if there would be a page to instruct non-techies like me on how to use it. Just a thought, though maybe a daft one, but I just wondered.
I hope to put my grandparents on there as they were both involved in the business of Pork Butcher. Listing their children on the database could prove useful to researchers.
I wish you every success with this project.
Bethgem
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I consider myself to be in the same category, you will notice I dropped out of the discussion!
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A help page will also become available, but I want to have a few more features "up and running" first, so I know what to put in it ;D
Bob
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thank you for all this work - it will be great !
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Half a step, half a step, half a step onwards !
Into the valley of the pork butchers rode the six hundred
Ooop, too soon !
Into the (LAN/YKS/CUL/DUR) valley of the pork butchers rode the thirty seven !!
37 members have entered 92 names
I have now added an edit page and a help page
The user names (as links) now select all records from that user, and there is the usual RootsChat icon (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/Themes/history/images/icons/profile_sm.gif) next to the user name as a link to the profile.
Try it out as much as you want, as this is still only the test-version.
The next step is to write the ADD page for new records, and then, when that is stable, we can go live :)
Enjoy,
Bob
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/index.php
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BTW, I'm also experimenting a bit with the tables supplied by RichardFunk (reply #23) and Histres (reply #26).
I am trying to convert them to a structure which I can load directly into the database, so don't worry if you suddenly see a lot of funny looking data .... especially if it comes and goes often ;D
Bob
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Thanks Bob, all well understood and it looks great too. A very interesting record will be created by it and I think it will be quite unique. All power to your elbow! :)
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New features added:
- soundex on surname and place searches in the Quick Search, so we get similar sounding names.
- also, a german soundex routine (which is very different fom the english soundex routine), which means that searching for (e.g.) Künzelsau will also find Kuenzelsau. Likewise: ö/oe, ä/ae. The german soundex routine returns some funny results sometime, but better too many than too few.
- I've converted RichardFunk's list from a Word doc. to an SQL script and loaded thm into the database (over 600 of 'em !!) and I'm now working on converting Histres's list to SQL, soI can add that, too.
I'm still having some problems loading names with umlauts, but I shall crack that soon.
If anybody has any data in the database, please feel free to edit it, just to see how it works, and so I can get some feedback. But don't change too much, as I shall be re-loading the database now and then.
Still on the To-Do list:
- ADD new records (high priority, so we can go live !!)
- Advanced search (not such a high priority, as the Quick Search is quite powerfull on it's own)
- add the abilty to register your interest in particular records,
if you recognise them as being from your family lines.
Then they will come up on "Show all with my Interests"
- add a paging feature, similar to RootsChat on long topics, so we don't load too many at one. For instance, when all data is entered, clicking on Baden-Wurttemburg will probably return nearly a 1000 entries.
Please try out as much as possible, and give me your feedback here on this topic.
Thanks,
Bob
PS: even if you aren't researching Pork Butchers, you can still try out all the features :)
PPS: as this isn't a "possible" database any more, I've changed the topic-title ;D
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Hope I'm not being picky, but could we have a link to it each time you invite us to go to it, as I am not sure how to get there! Yes, I know, I'm not a techie. I may be lazy in not looking back to other posts where a link has been given, but it would be nice to see a link to it in your posts. Hope you don't mind me asking.
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don't worry Bethgem, I don't even know how to get into this thread from the outside world! I can only get to it through my e mail notifications! which I am absolutely happy with! But it's a mystery . . . .
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Thanks 0113vanny! I too get here via the notifications, and if I want to look anywhere else on the site I just click the name next to a green leaf at the top of the page!
Anyway, the work that Berlin Bob is doing is needed by all of us and for future researchers, and for that I will keep on here to see how it looks and works when it is up and running.
Best wishes to him and his helpers.
:)
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Hope I'm not being picky, but could we have a link to it each time you invite us to go to
OK, here's the usual way of getting there:
- Click on the (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/Themes/history/images/english/library.gif)-Button at the top of any page.
You are now in the RootsChat Reference Library
- Click on the (http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/img/DBSIG-button.jpg)-button
Fast-Link (costs extra ;D ) : http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/index.php
Please keep adding your feedback here, otherwise I may get "tunnel-vision" -
I may end up programming something which I think is fantastic, but which you can't use.
Enjoy,
Bob
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Ok, following on from the main Pork Butchers thread, I would like to bring up the topic of changed names.
I think being able to keep a record of Anglicised names may help in tracing those who have dropped from sight - especially as the new name is not always an obvious choice. It would also be interesting to see whether whole families changed their name to the same name, or whether different branches changed names in a different way. For example, did all the descendents of George Schmidt get together in 1915 and decide to use Cole from now on, or was it only the children of Leonard Schmidt?
Also a note of when the name change appears to take place would be interesting - my example above change sometime between 1915 and 1922 (electoral roll evidence) but I guess some people decided to change earlier and some maybe never changed.
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Thanks Spidermonkey :)
I'll be interested to hear other opinions on this.
Another question, while we're at it ...
I am just tackling Histres' data list (reply #26), to convert it and load it to the database.
He has the following columns (I've numbered them for convenience):
- 1) Name and Forename
- 2) date of birth or emigration
- 3) place of birth or domicile
- 4) Married to
- 5) Addresses in England or Ireland
- 6) Sources
1), 3), 5) and 6) are OK and can be transferred to the the relevant fields.
4) can be transferred to "Biographical info.
The first part of 2) can go in 'dob' but the second part - emigration ...
Would there be enough interest in having this as a seperate field or can it just be added to 'Biographical info.' ?
regards,
Bob
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On the basis of my lot, the emigration field would only be relevant to one person (good old George Schmidt) who arrives ?1850ish. His children and grandchildren who also were pork butchers were born in England.
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Some new additions:
- I have now converted the data lists from Histres and RichardFunk.
(thank you, both, for making them available to everybody :) )
We now have 1699 names in the database !!!
Some of the Umlauts look funny (you'll recognise what I mean, when you see them ;D ). There is a problem with converting from ASCII to UTF8 formats, but that's minor. If you see any in your own records, you can use the EDIT function to kick them out :)
- The ADD new records function is now available.
- The german SOUNDEX is also "up and running", but I don't really understand all it's workings.
For instance, clicking on BRUECK finds all BRÜCK too, but clicking on BRÜCK doesnt find BRUECK ???
- I am differentiating between Contributors and Researchers.
A Contributor is anybody who enters data in the database. In the ADD and EDIT functions you can now (as 'Contributor') say whether you are also a Researcher, i.e. whether you also have family links to this name, or not.
To make this clearer, I have changed the heading of the 'Researchers' column to 'Family Links'.
The next step will be to add this to the page-view, so that members can record that they have family links to people already in the database, rather than creating a new record.
I won't have a lot of time next week, so I am going to leave everything "as is" for a while, so you can all test it without any disruptions from me ;D
I have a copy of the present database, so if it all goes pear-shaped, that won't be a big problem - I can just reload it. BUT ... if you all try it out and it's stable enough, then we can simply keep the present database plus your additions and - perhaps next weekend - go live !!
Keep up the feedback please, or I'll feel I'm working in a vacuum :)
Still to come:
- Advanced Search
- Paging (30, 50 60 results per page ???)
This is becoming more important now we have so many more records available to search.
- I think columns for name changes will be a 'must' for later; I've noticed that histres had quite a few in his lists. I'd arrange things so that name searches would be on both original and changed names.
Bob
ps. I've added a family under 'S' but this is just to test various things.
Don't try and work out if you are related or not, 'cause I invented them all ;D
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/index.php
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aaaaaarrrrggghhhhh! The edits I made haven't been carried forward!
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Sorry about that, but I did warn you:
If anybody has any data in the database, please feel free to edit it, just to see how it works, and so I can get some feedback. But don't change too much, as I shall be re-loading the database now and then.
The reason for reloading was because I was preparing to add the data lists from histres and RichardFunk, and sometimes needed to restructure the database in the light of what I was preparing. I then used database commands to reload everything.
The GOOD NEWS is that now this data is loaded, I shouldn't need to reload it again.
Some of their data needs further editing, but they can now do this using the EDIT button.
More good news:
I am going to leave everything "as is" for a while, ...
I lied !!! ;D On reflection, I decided it was very important to be able to add your own research interests to existing records, so I have now implemented this function. Look at any record in the "page view" and you can add or delete your interest (family links) there.
regards,
Bob
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excuse my ignorance - still suffering baby brain from the birth of Spider#2 3 months ago - so if we add/edit now, that data will remain even if you tinker with the database?
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Yep, all data should now remain in the database. If I do need to tinker with it, I will make a copy of any existing data, and insert it in the reloaded data.
Congratulations on Spider#2,
that should take your mind off pork butchers for a while (the first 18 years ??) ;D
regards,
Bob
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Bob
If I were to reply in Swiss German, I would say your efforts are "pretty nice" but, in my mother tongue I would exclaim "bloomin' good"!!
I am slowly adding my family and am really excited to be doing this.
I am an avid searcher (with Jack Russell tendencies) but a hopeless organiser.
However, I am perservering with the help of my Family Tree....
I also have data sheets for PBs that I have searched for for others!!
I wonder if it would be necessary to combine a DOB with date of baptism. On researching my english ancestors, I was astonished (at first) at how many twins and triplets were born, until I realised that their parents had "saved up" the registrations!! This doesn't seem to be so apparent in the German ancestors. This obviously could result in very different birth years. (West Yorkshire Baptisms and Liverpool Baptims).
What, at the moment, is really going through my head is the connection from Germany to England!!! We could obviously enter the ancestors if known (under the biographical notes). Maybe we could re-title this "history" or "parentage in Germany".
With many thanks for your work
Gill
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I find that many names are duplicated, without reference to a submitter, without date of birth, residence, etc., etc.
I find this confusing, especially when I am entering the details of a family member of the same name, i.e. Schluchterer.
I too, research Pork Butchers but, without birth, birth place, etc. there is in my mind no point in entering them on the database.
I am willing to be taught that I am wrong ;D maybe!!
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Hi Gill,
I find that many names are duplicated, without reference to a submitter, without date of birth, residence, etc., etc.
I entered about 70 records, simply by using data found in various pork butcher topics. The rest are from Histres and RichardFunk, with different degrees of "completeness".
In the table view, you only see people researching this name/person. The submitter (or "Contributor") is always shown in the record's page view. Histres has contributed several SCHLUCHTERER so one possibility is to check with him, if they are the same person, and if so, then click on "Add me to researcher links"
This applies for every new record: if there is already a record with that name, check with the contributor if it's also about "your" family.
We can always delete duplicates later.
General question for all:
Richard raised the question earlier on about whether everybody should be allowed to edit any record, as there will no doubt be cases where several different researchers have common ancestors. I don't know if I want to make the database totally open, but I put forward the possibility that perhaps a Contributor could set permission for selected "Researchers" to edit particular records.
Opinions please :)
Another question: is "Submitter" a better description than "Contributor" ??
Or more generally: if you feel any headings, titles and/or descriptions could be better, please put forward your suggestions :)
regards,
Bob
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I find this confusing, ...
I think some of the problems can only be solved, when we see "How" the database will be used. It has been a bit theoretical up to now ("it would be nice if we had a database of german pork butchers"), but we now have a basis to start working with it seriously.
regards,
Bob
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OK Bob, will wait and see!!
What do you think about my message beforehand? could you put in a column of "parents" (especially in Germany) or should we enter this in the "Biographical"??
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Hi Gill,
I think it could get too complicated with specific fields for too many different things
I think the parents could go in the "Comments" field,
or ... (again as general question) ...
we have an Address field in Country of Origin but I don't know how often that would be used. Perhaps we should rename that to Notes or something, and put information about "life in Germany" there ??
I can always increase the size of the field if necessary.
regards,
Bob
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ps.
if you use the Country and County field in the EDIT and ADD forms, then you don't need to add the names in the place name field. In the table view, I only use the abbreviations, because we haven't got room there for that much information, but in the page view they are written out in full. :)
Bob
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Hi Bob,
I don't know what others think about it but to know the immigrant's parent's in Germany would be a very important part of the research. I cannot see this as a "complication" but as a step forward in research!
It can be put into "Biographical" or "Notes" as one wishes but for me it would be an extremely important link to Germany.
Cheers
Gill
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I'm adding some people and 2 things have occured to me.
1) in the place of origin section, I interpreted that as being essentially details of their birth, so the location and possible address of their birth. Address #1 is then the first time they are found in other documentation (in my case, mostly census) Is this the correct interpretation?
2) it would be quite useful to have a means of linking individuals - perhaps a drop down box where people could select parents from existing entries or have the option of adding another entry
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Hi Spidermonkey,
1) in the place of origin section, I interpreted that as being essentially details of their birth, so the location and possible address of their birth. Address #1 is then the first time they are found in other documentation (in my case, mostly census) Is this the correct interpretation?
The place fields in the edit form look like this:
(http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/img/help-ed2.jpg)
In "Place of Origin" we could rename the Address: field to "Notes" or "other data" or whatever, and put the parents and other "Germany" details there.
This information would then be displayed like this
and are displayed like this in the page view
(http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/img/pageview.jpg)
It's up to you (all) really. The fields are there and what we call them and how we use them just needs to be decided upon.
The documention can all go in the Sources field.
Bob
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2) it would be quite useful to have a means of linking individuals - perhaps a drop down box where people could select parents from existing entries or have the option of adding another entry
That could be fairly complicated, but I'm thinking of a possibility for tagging data, to create links.
For instance: suppose we have a sentence:
"married to Charlotte Schweinemetzger in 1860"
I envisage writing it
"married to [id334:Charlotte Schweinemetzger] in 1860"
and the software would display 'Charlotte Schweinemetzger' as a link to the page view of record 334.
Another thought (for Sources) is [rc:34271] and this would be displayed as a link to RootsChat topic 34271, where relevant information can be seen.
All thoughts in the pot for later .... ;D
Bob
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Don't know how to do screen grabs I'm afraid, so you'll have to make do with me doing my best to describe it!! I think I have done pretty much as you have on your example, except that I haven't added parent details in the first section - but can always go back to do that. Also I have noted in the 3 address sections the date at which they are resident at that address (mostly from census so e.g 1871 - 1881: 152 Horseferry Road)
Also, when you add a new person and click save, if you then look at the list of people in the main alphabetical selection, your username (e.g. Spidermonkey) doesn't show up in the last column. You then need to edit the record, and move the tick box thingy back to "these are part of my family" (can't remember exact wording) even though that was the default setting when entering the data originally. If you save then after making that edit, your username shows up on the index.
Did that make sense?!!! :-\
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2) it would be quite useful to have a means of linking individuals - perhaps a drop down box where people could select parents from existing entries or have the option of adding another entry
That could be fairly complicated, but I'm thinking of a possibility for tagging data, to create links.
For instance: suppose we have a sentence:
"married to Charlotte Schweinemetzger in 1860"
I envisage writing it
"married to [id334:Charlotte Schweinemetzger] in 1860"
and the software would display 'Charlotte Schweinemetzger' as a link to the page view of record 334.
I like this solution
2) it would be quite useful to have a means of linking individuals - perhaps a drop down box where people could select parents from existing entries or have the option of adding another entry
Another thought (for Sources) is [rc:34271] and this would be displayed as a link to RootsChat topic 34271, where relevant information can be seen.
Could get a bit unwieldy if the topic is long and straggly- info might not be readily accessible
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I think I understood that :)
I notice you have three addresses for Westminster, ths can also go as three seperate lines in the first address box. The idea was to provide three "boxes" for seperate places. (but if you don't need more than three addresses anyway, then that's OK)
And with your second point,: Ouch !! yes, I've just tried it and it is definitely an error. I'll look into it soon, but probably won't have time till the weekend ...
Bob
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Hello Berlin Bob,
I just realized that in your data base you allocated Morsbach to NRW (North Rhine Westphalia).
However all the Morsbach pork butchers that are listed (and there are many) originated from Morsbach in BW (Baden Württemberg), a village that today belongs to Künzelsau.
Histres
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Hi Histres,
Ooops ! :-[
I'll change that at the next opportunity :)
Bob
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Berlin Bob said;
I entered about 70 records, simply by using data found in various pork butcher topics. The rest are from Histres and RichardFunk, with different degrees of "completeness".
Checked with HISTRES but he has no idea how the manifold Schluchterers came about!!
Cheers
Gill
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Histres has 2 Schluchters in his original list. They are records 712 and 713 in the database :)
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Hi Histres,
Ooops ! :-[
I'll change that at the next opportunity :)
Bob
I've just had the moving men in and Morsbach has now been transported ("Sack und Pack") to Baden-Württemberg ;D
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All right Bob,
Let me come back to the Schluchterers again. It's right , I provided two of them, originating from Künzelsau (May you please add that?) and living in England (what mistakenly was put by your programme from my list into the birthplace section of your list, due to my inadequate listing).
But how does it come that a Ludwig Schluchterer, possibly provided by SwissGill, is listed four times under Nos. 1701-1704, although it is obviously one and the same person.
Additionally this Ludwig might be identical with or a brother of "my" Johann Heinrich Ludwig. Therefore I agree with Swiss Gill who said that it would be most useful to show also a person's parents' names if they are known.
I have also some doubts if the entries of the name Schweinemetzger can be correct, especially the forenames that are given seem absolutely impossible and might be a misreading or misunderstanding as "blutiger" and "blutigster" mean "bloody" and "bloodiest" in English.
I hope all these unexpected problems can be solved step by step so that we get a reliable and not much irritating database in the end.
Regards
Histres
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Hi Histres,
from an earlier reply:
ps. I've added a family under 'S' but this is just to test various things.
Don't try and work out if you are related or not, 'cause I invented them all ;D
I constantly need to try out different features and aspects and find it best to have a couple of test records, so I don't change any other data. Once we are certain that everything is OK, I shall delete them.
I think SwissGill may have added a few too many Schlucherers. I haven't set up the "delete" function yet, but that will come.
Speaking generally now, the biggest problem with a project like this, is that it is impossible to plan every aspect in advance. I think now that we have a basis (1700 records) we can gradually work out what is needed to make this as useful as possible for as many users as possible.
In general we have enough data fields to show anything we want, but a tabular display will be difficult because of the amount of possible data for each person.
However, a field for parents of each person (visible in the table view) might be a good idea.
I think perhaps some of these problems - "who belongs to which family", "how can I be certain this is the right Ludwig, when there are several Ludwigs" will be easier to answer when I have implemented the planned link facility.
regards,
Bob
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Hi Bob,
No, I didn't set up too many Schluchterers - I saw them all before I started to edit one.
Gill
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Hi All,
The Database for Special Interest Groups: German Pork Butchers is now 'live'.
I will be "cleaning up" the database where the conversion of the lists from from RichardFunk and Histres wasn't quite 1:1 and I shall still be adding new features and improvements, so please keep the feedback coming.
Following up on the feedback comments, I've now added several new fields to the database records:
- Surname variations 1 and 2.
- Anglicised Surname and forename
- Father
- Mother
Selecting the surname will also consider surname variations and the anglicised surname (see example under 'P' ).
There is also a "delete" function (at the bottom of the 'edit' form) for deleting duplicate entries.
Not everybody lived in more than one town in the UK, so I have also re-formatted the table view, so that the three possible locations now appear in one line. This now allows room to display the anglicised surname too.
More to come, later :)
Bob
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Also, when you add a new person and click save, if you then look at the list of people in the main alphabetical selection, your username (e.g. Spidermonkey) doesn't show up in the last column. You then need to edit the record, and move the tick box thingy back to "these are part of my family" (can't remember exact wording) even though that was the default setting when entering the data originally. If you save then after making that edit, your username shows up on the index.
Ooops ! :-[ :'(
I've just corrected this error in the software:
when adding a new record, the "Family Links" flag got deleted.
Family Links
x : I have links to this family
_ : I do not have links to this family
Sorry about that, but if anyone has been adding records,
please edit them to correct this.
@limehouse, I've corrected your records by hand.
@spidermonkey and SwissGill, I'm not sure if all your records are also "family links" or just submissions, so I'll ask you to do those yourselves.
regards,
Bob
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I've just changed the selection process, so that when you click on "page view" you retain the previous selection in the "table view". This will help when examining several page views from a "table" of selections.
regards,
Bob
ps no more feedback ??
Everybody must be totally happy with it ;D
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/index.php?sig_code=GPB
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I'll have some feedback, probably, when I finally get the time to enter all my relatives, in the Green family, onto the Database.
I shall be ages, I know, if I am allowed to enter them all. Or are we just to enter the Butchers and not all their children and families who did not take up the trade?
If we all enter the generations that followed, it will bring the records up to the last deceased person as we are not allowed to enter real names of the living.
I do not know of any more relatives going even further back in time. It's thanks to Histres that I have the ones he looked up for me and they were all farmers. Maybe they were also butchers, but I am happy to leave the search there.
I'll get round to doing the entering soon, I hope. I've taken a look at the Database and I'm sure it will be very good for everyone. Thanks a lot, Berlin-Bob. :)
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I am slowly entering ones I know of as I get time and liaising with Histres regarding the ones he has entered that I would like to edit. It is time consuming but worthwhile. I think we should only enter the migrants, ie not subsequent children. it would go on for ever wouldn't it? but that includes people not just who came over as pork butchers, but servants, assistants, and others! even if they did not stay too (?)
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"And for my next trick ..."
I am going to add some edit functions for creating links within texts.
Here is an example:
(http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/img/pv01.jpg)
The text in the editor looks like this (the red numbers are just the numbers from the image):
Father: [id=1694]Blütiger Schweinmetzger[/id](1)
Mother: [id=1693]Adelheid Schweinmetz[/id](1)
Comments:
Freely-Invented test family
Cunigunda married [id=99]Fred Smith[/id](1) against the wishes of her parents. As they disowned her for this (there were some disputed rumours about a pork butcher's carving knife being brandished here) she and her husband moved to [p]Bradford[/p](2). More about this in [t=607068][/t](3) and [t=509347]replies #23-26[/t](4)
(1) are links to the page views for this person
(2) is a place link and selects every record where this place is mentioned
(3) is a link to a forum topic, without any other text
(4) is a link to a forum topic, with text (in this example, some reply numbers)
I have this running already on my test-system, but it hasn't been implemented on Rootschat yet, as I would like to hear your feedback first.
- For (1): can you think of any other fields where it would/could be useful ??
- For (2): same again
- For (3) and (4) OK so ?
and, as above, any other fields (perhaps "Sources" ?)
- can you think of any other items that would useful as links ?
regards,
Bob
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/index.php?sig_code=GPB
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I think we should only enter the migrants, ie not subsequent children. it would go on for ever wouldn't it? but that includes people not just who came over as pork butchers, but servants, assistants, and others! even if they did not stay too (?)
... if I am allowed to enter them all. Or are we just to enter the Butchers and not all their children and families who did not take up the trade?
I would suggest you all enter the immigrants themselves, and the first generation of children, who are also pork butchers or married pork butchers, as they will probably often marry among the ther immigrant families. The later generations will be more "english" and will probably branch out into other professions, and marry outside of the immigrant families (and will be getting into more recent dates).
Bob
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OK, thanks Bob, I will not be entering all of the offspring. It was just my Grandparents who were Pork Butchers and they had a lot of children, you see, and none of them took up their parents' trade.
I have only the one generation of tradespeople, as Pork Butchers. I'll get round to entering something soon. Our grandchildren are taking up nearly all of my time, and they are off school next week! Lovely though; it's good to have them.
:)
Keep up your good work on the database. Best wishes.
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I've not had any feedback on my last question, but I've implemented the links anyway. Maybe people need to see it in action and try it out before they can comment :)
I've also added a new link [f]family name[/n]. This will "select this surname". I thought this might be useful in conjunction with sentences like:
" ... married into the Xschweinmetzger (http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/GPB-quick-search.php?surname=XSCHWEINMETZGER) family"
where you have no further details, but you know there are Xschweinmetzgers in the database. Examples for the various tags can be seen by Cunigunda XSCHWEINMETZGER (http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/GPB-quick-search.php?surname=XSCHWEINMETZGER&view=1692) :)
I also had the idea of a "Family Record": this could be simply the family surname, with "Family" as forename.
You could include all general details here about a family which are difficult to attribute to particular persons;
or where you don't want to repeat the details in every single family member record;
or where you know there was a particular family, who were pork butchers from Germany, but you have only minimal details of them. Simply having the names in the database could be useful for others to find and maybe link to.
I've also added a "Top Ten" on the index page, as well as a list of the newest entries.
Enjoy, :)
Bob
ps: the XSCHWEINMETGER family is totally fictitious (the name comes from a long string of pork sausages long line of pork butchers originating in an area where the original names are very hard to pronounce. The X is silent, but is kept as a sign of respect for their ancestors).
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/index.php?sig_code=GPB
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Newsletter: (or "State of Play" :) )
The DBSIG - Database for Special Interest Groups is now definitely up and running.
The "starting capital" was supplied by adding approx. 60 records records culled from various "German Pork Butcher" topics on RootsChat. These records are mainly just the surname, place of origin and place(s) of abode or work in Britain, and there is only one record for each surname.
It is now up to you to fill these records with more data and add more records for other 'pork butcher' family members.
(Click on "Edit Record" to see which of your surnames have been submitted)
I've now rewritten the Help pages for the "German Pork Butchers"
so you now have no excuse, not to edit or add to your entries ;D
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/gpb-help.php
Also available are over 1600 records provided by RichardFunk and Histres.
Some of these are duplicates, that RootsChatters have supplied to RichardFunk and Histres. Check before adding new records, whether they are already entered. You can flag up your own family interests in other submitted records.
Feedback is always welcome :)
regards,
Bob
ps. Ignore this message, if you knew all this already ;D
Access:
>> Library
>> DBSIG - Database for Special Interest Groups
or
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/index.php?sig_code=GPB
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My records were submitted by Histres so I am unable to edit/add missing detail (there are 2 records that I can edit but these are duplicates).
Is there a way to get round this?
Helga
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In such cases I think the best thing is for everybody to edit (i.e. copy any data from Histres' records into yours) or create their own records, and then I'll gradually delete the duplicates from his list. Until then, you can also use the page-view in his records, to indicate your interest there.
I think RichardFunk and Histres have collected many such records, and I copied them all into the database, but I think it makes more sense, that those of you with family ties actually submit the records, and are able to edit them as more becomes known.
regards,
Bob
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Just a few points that spring to mind:
Do we have a field for year of emigration?
We may not need country of origin, just the state and town, it's probably a given that they are from Germany.
With the angicised name I like this idea. However, for example, my great grandfather was always known as George Funk in England, but his children changed their surname to Ford. Where, if anywhere would we enter this info?
As for editing the record I like your idea of having a distinction between 'Researcher' and 'Submitter'. I think these terms are clear and it solves the issue that me and Histres have submitted many names that are not our relatives. Just one question, if someone else is 'Submitter' on a record and I'm add myself as a 'Researcher', can I edit the record, or would I just contact the 'Submitter' and ask that it be changed?
One other thing. When a name appears in the 'Comments' section, say 'brother of x', is there anyway of hyperlinking direct to x's record?
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Do we have a field for year of emigration?
So far, no. This can either go in the "comments" section, or as the last item in the
"Country of Origin" >> Details field.
In a previous question, I suggested that the database should be for the immigrants themselves, and for their children, und perhaps grandchildren too, if they are also pork butchers, as there will probably still be a lot of contacts between these families. Later generations of children will be more likely to be moving out of the "family business" and marrying more widely.
We may not need country of origin, just the state and town, it's probably a given that they are from Germany.
The 1st generation of children may have been born in Germany or England, so I'll leave these fields as they are for now.
for example, my great grandfather was always known as George Funk in England, but his children changed their surname to Ford. Where, if anywhere would we enter this info?
Perhaps FUNK in the "Original Surname" and FORD in the anglicised name, with a clarifying comment in the comments box ??
I don't really know; does anyone else have any ideas on this ?
if someone else is 'Submitter' on a record and I'm add myself as a 'Researcher', can I edit the record, or would I just contact the 'Submitter' and ask that it be changed?
This is another point that needs to be discussed. One question originall raised was whether this should be "open access" for all. I am against this as it easily be mis-used. Instead, I set it up so that only the Submitter can edit a record.
However, another possibility which I mentioned, but wasn't discussed further, would be for the Submitter to say in any record, which Researchers are allowed to edit this record. Again, something which is up for discussion. But for now, it's as you say, Richard, you just have to contact the Submitter with your changes.
One other thing. When a name appears in the 'Comments' section, say 'brother of x', is there anyway of
hyperlinking direct to x's record?
YES ;D
Have a look in the Help-Pages here:
http://localhost/xampp/sit-dev/lexicon/dbsig/gpb-help.php?show=er#format_tags
I have deliberately displayed the record number (ID) in the page view and the table view so people can enter it in the [id=....]name[/id] tags.
I have also deliberately left my fictional XSchweinmetzger family in the database, as examples of how to use the formatting-tags:
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/gpb-quick-search.php?letter=X&view=1692
regards,
Bob
ps. Once the data is in the database, somewhere, it will be (fairly) easy to re-arrange it later, should think it would be better so. Perhaps we can review some of this in 6 months or so, when we have gathered more experience.
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pps. just a general thought (also open to discussion)
As Richard has mentioned, there are several duplicates where other RootsChatters have supplied him and Histres with their information. As "DBSIG-Admin" I shall be editing the database to remove duplicates. Duplicated data will be moved from Submitters' records to Researchers' records.
I feel that the database is more useful if people can immediately see other research interests.
This is why the Researcher is shown in the table views, and not the Submitter.
But as I said, open to discussion :)
regards,
Bob
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your hard work and discussion s are very much appreciated by those of us who sit at home and read!! I do agree that there should not be open access for editing, even though that does create small frustrations, but they can be overcome.
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Hello all,
I find it wonderful that such a German Pork Butcher database was created. I also appreciate that Berlin-Bob equipped it with many useful functions. However, there are still a few things to be discussed, as we must distinguish between three different groups of contributors. At first there are the submitters who bring in their own family data. Secondly there are the people like SwissGill who began exploring the roots of their own family and, when they realized that they could answer other people’s questions in RootsChat, also created own charts with other families’ names as a by-product. These contributors often have access to the genealogical data offered by different online providers. At last there are the researchers who are mostly interested in migration movements as a whole. I personally belong to this category and I want to shed some light on the interesting and little-known aspect that most of the German pork butchers originated from a very small area in Württemberg, called Hohenlohe. RichardFunk pursues the same aims in England. During the last few years I collected every single bit of information on these German emigrants that I could get and listed them in a chart. Naturally the amount of information ranges between name only and profound family history. No matter how much information I had on a single person or family, I submitted the whole of my lists to be integrated in Berlin-Bob’s new database. My purpose was, to give all those who were investigating their ancestry some evidence if their forefathers were among the pork butcher migrants. In not few cases, however, others provided the same names and now we are confronted with many duplicates. I have the strong feeling that often a family member could provide much more details on a person, but can’t edit them, as I am indicated as contributor. If all these persons turned on me and asked me to put in their additional data, I would hopelessly be overchallenged as I would have to do that parallel to the daily work in my occupation. So what solutions do we have? Would it be a possibility that submitters saved my entries on their family and asked me to delete them subsequently so that they could create a new and more comprehensive entry? Or could I give permission to Berlin-Bob that he gives them access for alterations? We should find possibilities that prevent misuse but enable us to enhance data in a safe way that is most easily to accomplish.
Histres.
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I haven't given much feedback as yet as I am trying to add my family and other pork butchers that I have found on my travels to the database. The database itself is a wonderful way for me to include all the pork butchers I have found and listed separately on my hard drive. I am an avid searcher but I am a very untidy person in that I have loads of scribblings on backs of envelopes, etc.
I don't only search for myself and others. I, too, am interested in any pork butcher from the Hohenlohekreis who landed on British shores. However, I like to find out as much as I can from these immigrants, the meat on the bones, so to speak, not just the names, hence my contribution is rather meagre at the moment.
Personally, I find the various address fields more than sufficient, if not unnecessary but this is just my findings as I tend to put most information into "comments".
I also find that one could add an alternative anglicised name in lthe "comments" section. In some cases I have found proof and date of a change by deed poll but otherwise have found by "snooping" around OP's family trees. Not all members of the families I have researched have altered their German name, my own families included.
As for the duplication, at the moment this isn't a big issue for me. I think time will tell and, if the size of the database is not an issue, we could wait a while before eliminating duplications. Bob has already said he will be controlling this.
That's all for now.
Gill
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I'm sitting here with a sore throat and a generally "unwell" feeling but after two "Kaffee Fertigs" I'm feeling quite a lot better:
Kaffee Fertig: put a little (or more depending on taste) instant coffee into an "Irish Coffee Glass" and fill it nearly full with boiling water. Add some Schnaps, as much sugar as you wish and "wohl bekommts" (enjoy it).
The Schnaps can be anything from Kirsch, Rum, Zwetschgenwasser (Damson), etc.
I use Asbach Uralt, a German brandy.
Prost!!
I have been searching on An'cy and have found a Mark Mehrer, Australia whose ancestors originate from Hermuthausen and are PB's. I contacted him and told him of this project and suggested he had a look-in. If he dpes I know you'll all give him a hearty welcome.
Gill
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As an early "Weihnachtsgeschenk" ......
The Advanced Search has now been implemented :)
Prost !
Bob
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Another one for the list.
Robert Volland who married Katharina Maria Gansler at St, Georges German Lutheran Church in Whitechapel, 26 August 1878. He came from Wurttemburg where he was born 12 March 1853. He died 12 February 1911 in East Dulwich, Surrey. He had a shop at 369 High Street in Stratford and then another one at Broadway, Stratford. He and Mary had 8 children.
Anybody interested in this line, let me know.
Merry Christmas
Bermudagirl
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Hi tsidey/bermudagirl,
this topic is for the technichal aspects of the database.
Please enter your pork butchers directly in the database,
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/index.php
and to the pork butchers discussion topic:
Topic: German Pork Butchers in Britain
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,408853.0.html
thanks,
Bob
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Hello. I am new to Rootschat and have started to add my list of German Pork Butchers including my great grandfather Georg Muller who started in his shop in Brick lane. I look forward to sharing information. Jaggers.
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OK Tom, I think I have arrived !
2 days ago I entered a name of Thierauf for the Pork Butchers List. I used the correct format which was successful earlier but the new entry didnt appear on the List, I tried again but still no sign of the entry on the List. Any idea of what I did wrong.?
Regards
Jaggers
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Hi Jaggers,
check the Help page to see if you've missed anything ...
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/gpb-help.php?show=ar#ar
I can't think of any reason affhand why you shouldn't be able to enter any names.
regards,
Bob
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This is an excellent idea, i've not been on here in AGES, i lost access to my email and couldn't remember my pw but all good now.
Going to read up on what i've missed, and will input if i have anything further to offer.
Great idea Bob ;D
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I have just added Karl Deuschle to the database and wanted add this link:
http://danielklongman.tumblr.com/post/10397218362
but cannot as not allowed so I am adding it here. It relates to the above who anglicised his name to Dashley. There is also a photograph of his shop. The rest of the website is also very interesting.
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I have just added Karl Deuschle to the database and wanted add a link
Hello SwissGill,
Thank you very much for the link and the additional information on Karl Deuschle of Birkenhead. His wife Maria Katharina Rüben was born on 23rd February 1865 at Bächlingen, Württemberg.
I am sending you details in an e-mail, so that you can add her to the database.
Kind regards
Histres
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Hi There Berlin-Bob,
As you know I only joined Rootschat yesterday but for obvious reasons am very interested in your idea for a database for Pork Butchers. My father's business(inherited) from my grandfather was a very successful (in its heyday ) Pork Butchery business. It possessed a very intriguing window display, the outline of a Pig made out of a neon light tube. A catchphrase coined by my father was ' the only thing you can't eat from a Pig is it's squeak! A contemporary of my father was named Bert Shouler who also ran a successful butchery business in Hull and later went into wholesale meat supply and I believe are still in business near Bridlington, East Yorkshire. Also Kress and Wagner, German immigrants were in business at this time in Hull. In fact I believe that my grandfather was for some time in partnership with Mr Kress or that Mr Kress may have leant him money to help establish his business. I have memories of my fathers shop on Porter street brimming with all manner of German sausages and cooked meats. His trade was varied, from supplying notable local restaurants to providing cheap meats etc to the less wealthy working class of the area. Just talking of it brings forth the most delicious smells! I do have some very old sepia photographs of my grandfather and mother. In one he wearing the gold cygnet ring that I wear to this day!
I hope that as we move on I may eventually discover just where he was born and see if there are any relatives still alive.
Thanks for your recent help,
Nick Uebel
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Hi Nick,
I hope you find the database useful. Please enter any related names you know, as "submitter and researcher" and you can also enter any other names you know, just as a submitter. They may help others. But check first if some one else has already entered them.
This topic is more for the technical side of the database.
For the family history side of things, you might also enjoy reading the topics listed here
Topic: RootsChat Topics: German Pork Butchers
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,509347.0.html
Good luck,
Bob
DBSIG access:
>> Reference Library (link at bottom of every RootsChat page)
>> DBSIG - Database for Special Interest Groups
or
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/index.php?dbsig_name=German+Pork+Butchers
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I hope that as we move on I may eventually discover just where he was born and see if there are any relatives still alive. Nick Uebel
Hello Nickuebel,
as you may have already realized, most of the German pork butchers originated from a very small area in Württemberg, called Hohenlohe.
I searched the Emigration lists and found a Karl Johann Michael Uebel who was born at Kupferzell and who left Germany in 1889. That means this Charles John Michael Uebel was most probably born around 1870. Do these data correspond with your documents?
Kress and Wagner came from Kocherstetten which is not far away and also the Schueler name (anglicised Shouler) is common around here as still is the Uebel name. Nearly all German pork butchers in Hull had come from the Hohenlohe area.
Best wishes
Histres
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I'm not sure that I am on the right thread?
But:
Berlin Bob
The addition of a section where we can add details to the original entry is great.
Even if the original poster, even though informed by PM, does not react, the addition remains.
thank you.
Gill
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Thank you Gill :)
The original topic was
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=421.0
but who cares ! - I'll accept any praise I get ;D
regards,
Bob
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Hi,
I notice this thread hasn't been active for a while, but I need some assistance.
I have noticed my GG-Grandparents are listed on this database, and would like to know where the information has been sourced from if possible (places of birth in particular). The only info I have is from UK records (census, naturalisation and marriage certs), and having searched on Ancestry.com and FamilySearch it appears my ancestors did not exist before arriving in the UK, even going by the information posted on this website!
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Hi, and welcome to RootsChat :)
Can you give us the names of your GG-Grandparents and we can carry on from there.
i.e. we can then see who entered the records, and possibly ask them where they got the information from.
If you are lucky, they may even have contributed to topics on RootsChat with information about them.
regards,
Bob
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Hi, Thanks for the quick reply
The names in question are;
Johann Georg Kolb B. 1861, Hopfach
Katharina Kämmlein/Kolb B. 1864, Atzenrod
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Johann Georg Kolb B. 1861, Hopfach
Katharina Kämmlein/Kolb B. 1864, Atzenrod
They are records #405 and #479, and were entered by Histres, who has been entered many other records from his researches into German Pork Butchers. He also checks this topic, so he will probably be able to tell you more about where he got his information from.
Please add your name as a researcher with family links (see the page view) and also, if you have any additional information, you can add this as comments, and we will add it to the records.
regards,
Bob
Help page:
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/dbsig-help.php?dbsig_num=2&show=gi#gi
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Hi pwm68,
It was me who added your great-grandparents to the database. I can give you the information you Need, together with family trees of both your great-grandparents and even more family data e.g. in what troublesome circumstances they grew up in Germany. I am going to write you a personal message and give you my E-Mail address. With this you can respond and tell me exactly who you are and what I can do for you.
Regards
Histres
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Hi,
I will do just that. Unfortunately I do not have much more information to add to what is already listed in the database.
Thanks again
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Hi Histres,
Thank you, I would very much appreciate that!
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Hello all you descendants of German pork butchers,
I would like to inform you about a special event that takes place in the first week of August this year. I am organising the 2nd Great German Pork Butcher Descendants' Reunion in Hohenlohe, the area where most of your forefathers came from. You are all warmly invited. The four day meeting combines the historical background with an interesting culinary, cultural and sightseeing programme.
If you are interested, please send me a personal message with your e-mail address and I will send you the programme, cost and payment details and a booking form. After having received the latter you may still decide if you want to take part or not.
Best wishes
Histres
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I went 2 years ago - brilliant!
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Hello! I'm trying to add my three pork butcher ancestors - but finding it very difficult to negotiate the site ( I can't find the list of surnames I KNOW exists! )
I am related to the Weegmanns of Otley: Wilhelm Weegmann, from Kunzelsau, was the uncle of my Great-Grandfather, Theodor Gotthilf Fiedler ( his mother was Caroline Fiedler, nee Weegmann. ) Theo. was born in Kunzelsau in 1869 and emigrated to England aged 15, to be apprenticed to another German butcher, Mr. Heine. He married Annie Lowes, from Newcastle and settled in Shadforth, County Durham, where he worked for the Co-Operative Stores. The couple had four children: Theodore; Caroline; Frieda ( who was my Grandmother, 1901 - 2000 ) and Ernst. In 1914, Theo. was arrested, as an enemy alien, and interned on the Isle of Man. He became ill and, thanks to his sisters, who worked for the German red Cross, he was exchanged for a sick British prisoner and spent the rest of the war with his sisters in Kunzelsau. In 1918, he was refused re-entry to the U.K. - he was unable to return until the Home Office finally relented in 1927, by which time my Grandmother was 26 and married, with a 2-year-old daughter ( my mother ) and a baby son.
Theo. died in 1942, when a fall from a 'bus caused head injuries. He had never become a British citizen!
His much older half-brother, Gustav Fiedler( born in Kunzelsau in 1850,whose mother was Caroline Beyer, nee Kramer) was also a butcher in Bradford and in Newcastle. He married Elizabeth Gorner in Bradford Cathedral in 1872 and they had three surviving children: Lisette, Anna and Robert.
Gustav died in Newcastle in 1884, aged 34, of tuberculosis.
I would happily add all this to the reference library list if I could find out how!
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Hello Carol
http://surname.rootschat.com/lexicon/dbsig/index.php
and then click on German Pork Butchers.
I the link under saved under "Favourites" and can just click on it.
Now I'll go back to reading your post.
Best wishes
Gill
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Thanks, Gill! I'll have another go - I'm not good with technology, which is why I haven't posted any information before now....
Good to hear from you - we missed you at the Reunion this year!
All the best, Carol.
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It may be of interest possibly known already. At Knaresborough, West Riding of Yorkshire,
in the 1940's and may be later there was "Holch" pork butcher's... at least a butcher. Reputed to be German. Shop situated at one side of the market square.
I've no connection at all with butchers or Germany. Regards, Gragareth.
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Hello Histres,
is Katharina Rüben a relative to Magdalena Rüben, maiden name Funk, born 04 December 1830? She is the mother of Karoline Rüben, born in 30 September 1874 in Bächlingen Württ. - married to Friedrich (Fred) Reinhard(t), born in 25 October 1876 Dörenzimmern Württ.
I am looking for relatives in Birkenhead, where Fred and Karoline lived till 1914/1916. Their oldes son Geord Friedrich Reinhard, born 1899 in Birkenhead stayed in the UK.
I would be very thankful for your reply.
Kind regards,
Elke Langer
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Dear ELanger,
Welcome to the thread. I will try to sort out things about the Rüben sisters. Caroline was born on 30.09.1874 in Bächlingen. Her parents were Wilhelm Jacob Rüben, smallholder in Bächlingen (*16.05.1833 in Sulzbach/Kocher- +25.12.1877 in Bächlingen) and Magdalena Funk, daughter of a day labourer (*04.12.1830 Bächlingen - +30.06.1911). Maria Katharina Rüben, born in Bächlingen on 23.02.1865 was Caroline's older sister. Maria Katharina married a pork butcher Carl Deuschle from Stetten im Remstal in Liverpool on 18.04.1892.
Obviously Caroline Rüben and her husband Frederick Reinhard were returned to Germany after the First World War.
There are descendants of a Reinhard pork butcher still living in Dublin. Can these be relatives of Georg Friedrich Reinhard?
Are You German, sprechen Sie deutsch?
Best wishes
Histres
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Dear Histres,
I am so sorry not having answered your reply till now. I thought I had checked the RootsChat in Germany, but did not see an answer. Now, during a visit in the UK I found your message one year ago! So sorry for that. Yes I am German. Do you speak German, too? Thanks for the detailed information. I will look further to find some relatives in Dublin. Thank you so much.
Please let me know if you need any support in Germany!
Best wishes
ELanger
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Schönen Tag ELanger
Ja, ich bin Deutscher und spreche Deutsch. Ich wohne 12 km von Bächlingen entfernt und weiß auch, welches das Haus Rüben ist, aus dem die beiden Schwestern stammen. Wir können uns per E-Mail austauschen, dafür müssen Sie mir aber hier im thread noch eine Antwort schreiben, dann ist es mir möglich, Ihnen eine PM - persoanal message - zu schicken und Ihnen darin meine email Adresse mitzuteilen. Auf der Mail-Basis kann ich Ihnen auch den Kirchenbuchauszug der Familie Rüben schicken.
Beste Grüße, Histres
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Hallo Histress,
vielen Dank für Ihre Nachricht. Nach längerer Pause habe ich Fotos entdeckt, die auf der Rückseite Nachrichten enthielten und so meine Neugier weckten! Manch Nachricht gingen von Elsie an Maria - (geb. Rüben, verh. Deutschle?). Ist das Paar auch nach Deutschland zurück gekehrt?
Meine Eltern haben in den 60ern eine Tante Marie/Maria in Bächlingen besucht. Leider kenne ich die Beziehungen nicht.
Ich würde mich über die Auszüge, die sie erwähnten an meine Emailadresse sehr freuen.
Viele Grüße
Elke Langer
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Ich bitte um Entschuldigung für den Schreibfehler , Histres.
MfG
E. Langer