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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Gen List Lass on Sunday 09 September 12 10:10 BST (UK)
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I've just found a probate entry in England of a man called Edward Mostyn THELWELL dying on the 13 April 1899 at Ravensworth, Mildura Victoria. He would be about 55 and is described as a gentleman and left his money to an Edith Lawrence spinster.
Can anyone tell me where Ravensworth was or where he would be buried.
Would there be anything in a local paper?
I don't know if Edith Lawrence was with him in Australia or back in England as the probate was granted in London (Admin.) She is not a sibling.
Gen in NBL England
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This will be the death. At this stage I am not able to say where the mistranscription lies
PHELWALL Edw Mostyn
Father Unknown
Mother Unknown UNKNOWN
Age 44
Death Place Mdura
Year 1899
Reg. Number 6928
Sue
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Hoho, this doesn't surprise me in the least, he was a wrong 'un!
He was actually 11 years older and had left/deserted a much older, wealthy widow he'd married back in Wales. He'd also been in prison in his early 20's for stealing from his employer the Royal Mail!
He was from a wealthy respectable Welsh family but he was the exception.
Thanks for your help
Gen in NBL England
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LOCAL NEWS.
The Mildura Cultivator (Vic.: 1888 - 1920) Saturday 15 April 1899 p 5 Article
“An old identity in the person of Major Thelwall died in the District Hospital on Thursday morning shortly before daybreak. He had been admitted a short time previously suffering from inflammation of the bowels, and on Wednesday evening he appeared to be so bad that information was sent to the Rev. F. Thorpe, saying that the unfortunate man could not live many hours longer. The rev. gentleman immediately went to the Hospital and stayed with the sufferer until 5.30 a.m. on Thursday, at about which time he expired. Major Thelwall was a prominent figure in the settlement, and the announcement of his death will come as a shock to his many acquaintances, few of whom knew of his illness. The remains of the deceased were buried yesterday, and the funeral was largely attended.”
Rhonda
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Here he goes again! Major - snort! From extensive research I've never found him in any Army unless it dates from when he disappeared from UK shortly after his marriage in 1873.
From what the obituary describes he seemed well-liked so probably he was quite sociable and possibly had the gift of the gab. Maybe he had turned over a new leaf in Australia.
Thank you Rhonda, most interesting!
Gen in NBL England
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THELWALL E M MR aged 32 arrived in Melbourne MAY 1881 on the ship POTOSI from a British Port.
With him was this person
THELWALL J B MR aged 30
Rhonda
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Wonder if this death was the same chap who accompanied EM THELWALL to Australia.
Jno Bulkeley THELWALL aged 29 (??) in 1889 at East Melbourne
Father was Richd B Twyford, and mother named Elizth Ann TOKER
Reg. #3544
(Age 10 years out)
Rhonda
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Now the plot thickens - John Bulkeley THELWELL was his brother, younger by 13 years!
John Bulkeley THELWALL b 1857 Wrexham, Denbighshire, Wales
Edward Mostyn THELWALL b mid 1844 in the same place
Often wondered what happened to John Bulkeley. I have him in 1886 and 1887 as 3rd mate on ships between England and Australia. He managed to fit a marriage in as well in London 1896 to the publicans daughter.... gets better doesn't it.
So this chap dying in 1889 cannot be him. Haven't found two people born with this name at this time so who died? The parents are wrong as well as the age. Maybe a mis-transcription somewhere? Where did you find his death, Rhonda?
Interesting that the THELWELL brothers arrived on the same ship in 1881, so they should be still in UK for the 1881 census... I'm on a roll here, this is great!
Gen in NBL England
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You won't find them on the 1881 Census as the ship Potosi they were on left the UK on the 26 March 1881.
Edward Mostyn THELWALL d. 13 April 1899 at 'Ravensworth' Mildura, Victoria.
'Ravensworth' was the name of the home/property he was living at.
Edith Lawrence was possibly the owner or housekeeper.
John Bulkeley THELWALL d. 26 March 1889 at Fitzroy, Victoria.
His occupation was a Bank Clerk.
You will find the names of his brothers & sisters are in the files of his estate.
You will find their Wills, Probate and Administration of their Estates which were filed in Victoria, Australia, they also have the names of family from the UK & other interesting information available free to download from here:
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
There are 3 files for Edward & 2 for John.
Edward is probably buried at Mildura Cemetery. They are very good with requests for details & even photos of the grave if there is a headstone.
email: cemeterytrust[AT]mildura.vic.gov.au
John is most likely at Melbourne General Cemetery. Again they are very good with requests for details of burials.
email: mgc[AT]smct.org.au
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Merlin - thank you for those links, I knew nothing about all this till today now I've seen a will and an admin and inventories, debts and exceutors. What a treat but a sad tale too, both brothers died alone and practically penniless. Both had wives somewhere but not there!
Now have to find out who was using the name of John Burklely THELWELL to get married in London UK in 1896, it's not be the first time I've seen someone adopt anothers identity.
Gen in NBL England
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Are you missing an Ann/e THELWELL at all?
There is a marriage & death in Victoria:
Marriage:
THELWELL Ann (born Rainhill, Lancashire) m. LAUCHLAN Mat Highet (born Ayr) 1894 #6446
Death:
LAUCHLAN Anne age 40yrs d. 1897 Malvern #9511
Father: William THELWELL
Mother: Theresa WATKINS
It appears she also had a brother named James.
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Found a reference to a THELWALL family that mentions some of the supposed brothers and sisters - children of the parents named on J B's death record ???
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~walkersj/FrancisPhipps.html
65. ELIZA CLARISSA EMILIA12 TOKES (ELIZA JEANETTE11 BRANTHWAITE, ELIZABETH10 PHIPPS, CONSTANTINE9, CONSTANTINE8, JAMES7, JAMES6, FRANCIS5, GEORGE4, ROBERT3) was born November 29, 1831, and died June 29, 1888. She married CAPTAIN RICHARD BULKELEY TWYFORD THELWALL. He died 1888. 65th Regt.
Children of ELIZA TOKES and RICHARD THELWALL are:
i. ARTHUR BRANTHWAYT13 THELWALL.
ii. REVEREND EUSULE ALLISTON THELWALL.
iii. CONSTANCE HESSIE THELWALL, d. unmarried.
iv. BULKELEY THELWALL.
v. MARY CHRISTINE THELWALL. Nun.
vi. EDWARD THELWALL.
vii. RICHARD DE CRESPIGNY THELWALL.
Rhonda
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Merlin
Don't think she is any relation of the Welsh bunch.
Thanks anyway.
Gen in NBL England
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Rhonda
Thank you for sticking with this thread!
I went back over what I already have plus some new searches and found there ARE two John Bulkeley THELWALL's!
One b Wales 1857, father Bevis
One born Somereset 1860, father Richard.
I've been trying to disentangle them by census and voyages and think I have them now. With both boys being educated away from home at a young age it was difficult to find parents.
This also accounts for that mysterious JBT marriage in London after JBT died in Australia :-)
Still haven't found out how the two JBT's are related but probably cousins - now to prove it!
Thanks
Gen in NBl England
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Sorry for a late entry i will be looking into this futher my nans nan was Edith Charlotte Tanner and i have lived my whole live in Mildura seems this guy has a past so i will be looking up his grave site as well as anything else i can get Cheers Kim
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I wonder if Frederick LAWRENCE and Edith LAWRENCE were siblings or perhaps father and dau.
A few snippets mentioning Edward.
Mildura Cultivator 4 Mar 1891
Time steamer Ruby arrived at 6 p:m. on Monday after a 39 hours trip from Swan Hill. The passenger list was as follows :-Mrs. F. W. Judd, Miss Camp, Miss Jewkes, Mrs. McLarty, Mrs. Boyden, and Messrs. Robinson (2), Hamilton (2), Furley, Champ, Camp, Marsh, Boyden, Timbury, Baker, Thelwell, Grover, Middlnton, G. M'Kay, J.
McKay Blomfield, Watson, and six deck passengers.
Mildura Cultivator 24 Nov 1894
A nasty accident happened to Mr. Fred Lawrence, settler, of Eleventh-street, on Wednesday last. After lunch he started away from the stable with a pair of horses in a waggonette, accompanied by Major Thelwall. One of the animals restive always when starting, was more fractious than usual, seeing which Mr. Lawrence, upon coming out of the gateway opening on to the street, instead of directing the animals across the bridge close by which was in the way he purposed going, turned their heads down the street. Almost in the same instant the pole snapped, the reins became disarranged at the horses' heads, the wheels locked, the waggonette overturned, and the occupants were violently thrown to the ground. The Major escaped with a slight though painful wound on the knee, but Mr. Lawrence had his right collar-bone broken, a left rib stove in, and his skull injured. Dr. Abramowski, who is attending Mr. Lawrence, reports that his patient is doing very well under the serious circumstances.
Mildura Cultivator 11 Sep 1897
£1 REWARD.
WHEREAS certain person or persons are continually turning cattle into Mr. ? Mlaine's block situated at the corner of Tenth-street and Koorlong avenue, at night time and removing them in early morning.
WHOEVER can give such information as will lead to a conviction, shall receive the above reward from this late.
LAWRENCE AND THELWALL, c Ravensworth, Mildura, September 4th, 1897.
England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations)
1901
THELWALL Edward Mostyn of Ravensworth Mildura colony of Victoria gentleman died 13 April 1899 Administration (with Will) (Limited) London 1 January to William Goode Davies Solicitor the attorney of Edith Lawrence spinster Effects £293.11s.
This appeara to be Edith's death. She mentioned she was of Toora on one of the files at PROV. The family appear on the 1903 electoral roll at Toora but the image is almost illegible. Edith was born c1876 in the UK.
Marriage
LAWRENCE Edith born England
GARDENER Thomas John born England
1901 Reg#2264
Death
GARDENER Gardener
Father Herbert [Frederick] LAWRENCE Mother Mary Jane DAVIES
At Welshpool 80 years 1956 Reg#22217
Kim I am wondering why you have mentioned your nans nan was Edith Charlotte Tanner. What is the connection?
Cheers
Cando
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Kim I am wondering why you have mentioned your nans nan was Edith Charlotte Tanner. What is the connection?
Cheers
Cando
This seems to be birth to a woman named similarly to above.
The couple had a number of children in Vic.
The connection is not yet apparent to the people being discussed on this thread
HORE Hanora Alice (other BMD references show HOARE)
Father John
Mother Sharlot Edith TANNER
Birth Place BLUE
Year 1870
Reg Number 7220
Sue
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A response on one of Kim's previous threads....
hello swampguts,
saw your queries re John Hoare, so had to join up to contact you.
he was born 28 June 1832 Galbally & Aherlow
To Maurice Hoare and Hanora Murphy.(http://ifhf.rootsireland.ie/)
]He Married Edith Tanner 26 April 1869 St Francis' Church Melbourne. (I have print out of marriage certificate) He had two children, Alice (1870) and Maurice (11 Dec 1871) I have print of his birth certificate.) There are three possibilities re: his arrival in Victoria, so will not note them for the moment.
John was the brother of Thomas Hoare (Hore) (B: 9 Nov 1834) who also came to Australia, married in the goldfields but followed the gold to Otago NZ. he was my G G Grandfather on my mother's side.
There appears to be a Maurice who was a brother of John and Thomas who died in Ballarat Victoria in 1906, as he left money to John's Alice and Maurice (referred to as nephew and niece in will). I can provide the info if required. I'd like to find out more too, looks like they're from Glenary, Ballingarry Limerick. according to Griffiths.
cheers
The author of the above post appears to have possibly missed eight births more to John HOARE and Edith TANNER and perhaps that should be persued on another topic so we don't hijack this thread.
Still can't see the connection to Edward Mostyn THELWELL.
Cando
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Are you missing an Ann/e THELWELL at all?
There is a marriage & death in Victoria:
Marriage:
THELWELL Ann (born Rainhill, Lancashire) m. LAUCHLAN Mat Highet (born Ayr) 1894 #6446
Death:
LAUCHLAN Anne age 40yrs d. 1897 Malvern #9511
Father: William THELWELL
Mother: Theresa WATKINS
It appears she also had a brother named James.
Matthew Highet LAUCHLAN's first marriage in 1867
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0seu/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0set/
The Argus 19 Jul 1897
Deaths
LAUCHLAN On the 17th July, at her late residence ?Monomeeth, Waverley Road, East Malvern after a painful illness, my beloved wife Anne. M H Lauchlan
Burial at St Kilda Cemetery
LAUCHLAN Anne 40 years
Religion None Interred 18 Jul 1897
Location - Independent, Monumental, Comp B, Grave 94
MI
Ann THELWELL
died 17 Jul 1897
of Waverley Rd, East Malvern
Died 17 July 1897
Wife of Matthew Highet LAUCHLAN.
3rd marriage for Matthew in 1899
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0sev/
LAUCHLAN—HEATHERSHAW On the 11th February, at Hobart, Tasmania, by the Rev. C. H. Talbot, Matthew Highet Lauchlan, of Sydney,to Janet Lapsley, of Melbourne, daughter of the late Captain William Hamlet Williamson, of Port Glasgow, Scotland.
Sydney Morning Herald 12 Dec 1917
LAUCHLAN Dec 11, 1917 at the residence of his daughter Mrs W Lawrence Langton, Frazer-road, Lewisham, Matthew Highet LAUCHLAN, native of Ayre, Scotland, aged 84 years
An obituary SMY 16 Dec 1897
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0sex/
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search?event=births
15389/1917
LAUCHLAN Matthew H 84 years Petersham
Distric Petersham
Interred at Rookwood Cemetery - Independent Old Ground and Old Ground Extension
Section OG Row 5 Grave#2213
MI
Matthew Highet LAUCHLAN
Died 11 Jul 1917
Born Ayr, Scotland 5 Jan 1834.
Died Sydney
Cheers
Cando
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Ignore last post. I see that Edward's parents are Bevis Heywood THELWELL and Sophia Rebecca OWEN.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,547141.0.html
Hopefully someone researching other THELWELL's in Aus may find it useful ::).
Cando
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thanks all this bloke comes from the mostyn owen family they are the spares not heirs to the throne, this mans mothers sister tryphena mostyn owen (our branch did drop the mostyn) come to Australia with husband John Tanner surgeon whom turned to farming had no idea there were others out here as we have ahd pronblems tracking them til now. I have lived in Mildura all my life so a shock to know we had family that bet us here
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Kim,
If I am understanding your post correctly, you believe the mother of EDWARD MOSTYN TRELWELL was sister to TRYPHENA MOSTYN OWEN.
EDWARD's parents were not known by the informant on the registration of his death in 1899.
You believe her to be ?? OWEN
Can you perhaps help GEN any further with parents' names?
This seems to be the death of TRYPHENA TANNER (nee OWEN)
TANNER Tryphenia
Father Owen
Mother Unknown MOYSTON
Age 78
Death Place Mvern
Year 1903
Reg. 6393
Sue
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Just come back to review the thread and see that the parents of EDWARD are, after all, known per the link provided by CANDO.
No need then KIM for further clarification of the apparent relationship between the OWEN women.
Sue
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that is correct Edwards mother ( i think Rebecca ) was sister to Tryphena. Tryphena daughter of the rector of cound whom died at an early age as did his wife married John Tanner Surgeon but farmer in Oz later a chemist . At the moment with Edward Mostyn TAhelwell we have no record in our cemetry which could mean no head stone will go up in a minute and see the local geneological group for more info
Cheers Kim
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Swampguts - was very interested to see you are from this family and some of them went out later to Mildura where Edward Mostyn had died. I wonder why your branch went to the exact place he had been?
There is no headstone, he had a paupers burial but he is the only one buried in that plot, not a communal grave. This was the information I had from the lady at the Mildura Cemetery Trust. She even sent me a photo of the plot of ground where he was buried.
I have much information about his life in UK, his migration to Australia and his death there. The list of his possessions that were auctioned after his death show a lot about what type of man he was and what he had been doing in Mildura.
If you want to know more just ask either here on the forum or send me a private message via this forum..
Gen in NBL England
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Yes went to local geneology thjis arfternoon to find he was in an unmarked grave need to ask about the house as that may give some clue as to why he came here. We ended up here as my mother was a Registered Nurse and Mildura Base Hospital was a prt of her training she met and married my father here in Mildura we were all born here, my mother was born in Donald to John Edward Davidon and Edith Hoare great grand daughter of the tanners on her fathers side. WOuld love to know more and anything on Tryphena as there is some funny stuff htere a s well Cheers Kim
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Gen I am curious ....are you related to Edward Mostyn THELWELL or is your research for one of your clients? You don't appear to be interested in Edith LAWRENCE and her father with whom Edward appeared to have a business relationship.
Kim if you are interested you may like to download Edward's file from PROV mentioned by Merlin. Be patient as the website is very slow ::)
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
Cando
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Cando
This family is neither related to me nor my clients.
I stumbled across them whilst I was looking for a missing FENWICK in my own family.
In England, Edward Mostyn THELWELL had married a widow of Henry FENWICK who was from a Northumberland branch of the FENWICK's and possibly related to my own NBL FENWICK's. All very tenuous but once I started researching the widow (Sarah THELWELL) formerly Sarah FENWICK nee HILTON, I was hooked. The family were fascinating.
After their marriage EMT went missing on the UK census and it was only by chance I was told of him dying in Mildura. After that all the pieces fell into place. Whether he deserted Sarah or agreed to leave, I don't know. He did have a murky past and I don't know if she was aware of it when she married him. Her own past was very strange.
Edith Lawrence was EMT's executrix and gave her former address as Ravensworth Mildura, that was the same address as EMT at the time he wrote his will. He left all his assets to her but there was very little after his debts were paid. The will witnesses were Frederick William Lawrence and John Thomas Gardener.
This has been a very involved piece of research but I think I have it all now.
Gen in NBL England
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Hi Gen, Cando, Kim et al
Well, what a fascinating thread! I knew nothing at all about Edward Mostyn Thelwell or that he ended up in Mildura. I always assumed that Tryphena was the only one in the family who migrated here to Australia.
I'm Tryphena Mostyn Owen and John Tanner's great-great-great-granddaughter. I have learnt heaps of information about the Mostyn family, being as well-documented and influential as they were. Only today I discovered that Tryphena's brother Edward Mostyn Owen married Mary Susan Parker, daughter of Marianne Darwin (sister to Charles) and Henry Parker. And of course Tryphena's cousin Fanny was Charles' love interest before he set sail on the Beagle. They sure were an interesting family!
I haven't read through all this thread in detail yet.. look forward to knowing more about my colourful distant cousin :-)
Cheers, Rachel
PS Note that the death index entry for Tryphena Tanner (nee Mostyn Owen) quoted above is wrong. Her mother (and Edward's grandmother) was Elizabeth Sophia Hinchliffe. Tryphena's granddaughter Ruth Belton was the informant on her death certificate and managed to botch it right up!
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Hi,
I just came across this thread (some 9 years after it was posted!).
Edith Lawrence, who "Major" Edward Mostyn Thelwell made his executor and beneficiary, was in fact a relation of mine. She was the sister of my Great Grandfather Frederick Lawrence, who (along with a brother Philip Lawrence and another sister Elsie, and parents Herbert and Mary), all settled in Mildura before giving the game away and relocating to Toora around 1900 to become Dairy Farmers.
Now we are very curious as to the nature of the relationship between Edith and Edward, and about this place "Ravensworth".
Edith did subsequently marry in Toora to John Gardener, who was also in Mildura and had emigrated with the family from Birmingham.
Cheers MT