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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: Candidiasia Ibberrson on Saturday 22 September 12 19:37 BST (UK)
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I have just come back with my husband from visiting his Uncle George Harding.
George had told us that we need to be tracing the Lacey line not the Harding as Nicholas Lacey changed his name to Geroge John Harding.
I am in posseion of the MC for Nicholas Lacey and Alice Lavina White which is correct George has confirmed this.
Nicholas Lacey and Alice Lavina White married 01 May 1915 in Coventry.
Nicholas Lacey, 39, Batchelor, Bricklayer Corporation. 10 Butchers Row Coventry Father Thomas Lacey Blacksmith
Alice Lavina White, 35, Spinster, Domestic Servant, 10 Butchers Row, Coventry Father - Henry William White Deceased, Door Maker
Witnesses on the MC are Nathan Floyd and somebody I cannot make out who
I have a 1911 census for Gerorge Herny Harding and Alice.
George John Harding and Alice Lavina White had Harold Henry 1907 Bournemouth.
BC for Harold Henry Harding
17 December 1906, 96 Stewart Road. Father George John Harding, Green grocer master, Mother Alice Lavina Harding formelry White.
Info is:-
George Henry Harding Aged 59 (however i think this an error I think it should be 36) Green Groce, born Dorchester
Alice aged 30 Kitchern maid born White born in Bournemouth
Louisa aged 24, Single born Bournemouth
Frederick aged 8, born Bournemouth
Queenie aged 4, born Borunemouth
Harold Charles aged 4, born Bournemouth
Violet 2 and a half born Bournemmouth
Maragaret Smith, 25, Visitor, married, born Liverpool
My husband Uncle Geroge confirms that all the above is correct and that Nicholas Lacey is George John Harding. When did he change his name by deepole and where to find the Laceys and Whites.
Other info Harold Henry Harding was in the RAF he was dispatch rider and cook however I have found nothing on this so maybe I should be looking for Harold Henry Lacey?? He was also a ice sales man and this has been in the telegraph years ago 1915/1916.
Many thanks (Talk about cofused go to confused.com)
No wonder I could not go up the Harding side as I was trying to.
Candis
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Hi,
Found this death registration:
Harold Henry Harding, SeptQ 1969, Coventry, 9c 1695. Date of birth: 17 December 1906
Nanny Jan
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Harold Henry Harding died 1973
Candis
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George Henry Harding Aged 59 (however i think this an error I think it should be 36) Green Groce, born Dorchester
Alice aged 30 Kitchern maid born White born in Bournemouth
Louisa aged 24, Single born Bournemouth
I think you've got a bit muddled here. It actually reads
George Henry Harding Aged 59
Alice aged 30 Wife
Louisa aged 24 Daughter
Added
no occupation shown for Alice
Louisa is the Kitchen maid
So Harold can't be 36 with a dughter of 24!
I suspect this is a second marriage for George Henry. It should say how long they've been married
.....Nicholas Lacey is George John Harding. When did he change his name by deepole
You could/can call yourself anything you like, as long as it is not for fraudulent purposes. He would not necessarily have to have changed his name by deed poll :)
Linda
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Hi,
I think this is George John Harding in 1891 -
George John Harding 37 Fishmonger
Emily Louisa Harding 34
George Thomas Harding 14
Samuel William Harding 12
James Henry Harding 9
William Fred Harding 8
Emily Louisa Harding 6 b. Bournemouth, Hampshire
William Olden 36
2 Rye Cottages, Bournemouth RG12 Piece 904 Folio 145 Page 36
There is a marriage of George John Harding 1877, Christchurch, on the same page is an Emily Louisa Rogers Vol 2b Page 990
JJ
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I am assured by Uncle George that George John Harding is Nicholad Lacey.
Nicholas Lacey did not like his name so therefore changed it to George John Harding
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Just re-reading this. Are you sure you've got all the right records (despite what Uncle George says)
Nicholas Lacey changed his name to George John Harding [date unknown]
BC for Harold Henry Harding
17 December 1906, 96 Stewart Road, Bournemouth
Father George John Harding, Green grocer master, Mother Alice Lavina Harding formelry White.
1911 Bournemouth
George Harding 59
Alice Harding 30
[no middle names shown]
Harold Charles Harding aged 4
Nicholas Lacey and Alice Lavina White married 01 May 1915 in Coventry.
Nicholas Lacey, 39, Batchelor, Bricklayer Corporation. 10 Butchers Row Coventry Father Thomas Lacey Blacksmith
Alice Lavina White, 35, Spinster, Domestic Servant, 10 Butchers Row, Coventry Father - Henry William White Deceased, Door Maker
They just don't tie up!
I think you have to decide which information is really correct and work forwards and backwards from there. :)
Linda
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Oh Dam
My husbands father Peter show his father as Harold Henry Harding from Peters bc.
Uncle George is the eldest son of Harold and Jane Elizabeth,
I ment that Harold Henry Harding is Nicholas Lacey.
I have the mc for Harold Henry Harding and Alice Lavina White
The Mc for my husband parents shows Harold Henry Harding as the father. and from electoll role information we could only find a Nicholas Lacey with an Alice Lavina White no Harding but the children were all Harding.
Sorry about the confusion now you see my headache!!
Candis
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Harold Henry Harding died 1973
Candis
I'm stuck............where did you find this death?
Nanny Jan
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We werre told toady by George his son that he died in 1973 and Jane Elizabeth his mother in 1977/
Candis
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Hi,
The death I found (1969) does give a birthdate that matches the one on the birth certificate you mentioned.
Nanny Jan
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Thanks Nany Jan
I am totally stumped with the Lacey thing. I cannot see how George John on the 1911 census is correct becuase of the age difference.
As there is onlyh 4 years between Nicholas and Alice on there MC.
I cannot find any trace of a Nicholas Lacey or a Harold Henry Harding in the RAF as he was a dispatch rider and cook.
Candis
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Hello,
I am still confused. Is this right?
George and Peter are the children of Harold Henry and Jane Elizabeth Harding.
You have said this a couple of times. You also have the deaths of this couple in 1970s in Coventry.
So it is back to Nicholas Lacey and Alice Lavinia White.
You say you have that marriage cert. and then said you have Harold Henry's marriage to Alice L ???
regards
heywood
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There is this death:
Nicholas Lacey Coventry 1st quarter 1938 vol 6d page 882 (born abt 1872)
perhaps that would tell you who the informant of death.
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I think it's George & Alice who use the Lacey name - especially given there is a birth registration in the Bournemouth area for a Violet Lacey in 1910
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BC for Harold Henry in front of me now
Born 17 Dec 1906, 96 Stewart Road.
Father George John Harding Green grocer master
Mother Alice Lavina white
MC for Harold Henry Harding and Jane Elizabeth Plant. George and Peters Parents
Harold Henry Harding 21 years, Batchelor, Mechanic master car mechanic 50 Margaerets Road Coventry Father George Harding deceased. Married
Married 07 April 1931 Coventry
MC for Nicholas Lacey and Alice Lavina White
Nicholas Lacey 39 years Batchelor, Bricklayer (corporation) 10 Butchers Row Coventry. Father Thomas Lacey Blacksmith
Alice Lavina White 35 years Spinster, Domestic Maid 10 Butchers Row Coventry. Father Henry William White deceased bookmaker
Married 01 May 1915, Coventry
I have never been able to find a marriage for a George John Hading and Alice Lavina White, Electroll Roles in Coventry History Centre show Harold and his sibling living with Nicholas Lacey and Alice Lavina.
To be told today by the eldest son of Harold and Jane that his father great grandfather did not like the name Lacey so changed it to Harding. Alarm bells are rining something does not add up.
So between the birth of Harold in 1907 and the marraige of Harold in 1915 George John Harding had died.
I feel like I am going round and round in circles trying to get to the bottom of this puzzle.
Othe information I have a Violet White who married an Ablert Gullick, Violet could be a sister to Alice.
Candis
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It would be a good idea to see what the birth certificate of Violet Lacey shows.
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I see the logic there heywood. I will probably order that next week when pay day arrives.
Sorry about all the confusion and thanks for that information.
Candis
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I see the logic there heywood. I will probably order that next week when pay day arrives.
Sorry about all the confusion and thanks for that information.
Candis
Hang on! There is a Violet Harding birth -1909 Christchurch
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Thanks for that
I really do no know where to go next Lacey/Harding.
I really do not know how to solve this. Some more thinking is required.
Once again thanks for the help and no doubt I will be back
Candis
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It may be that Alice lived with and had children with a Mr Harding. She then met and married Nicholas Lacey.
I wonder what happened to those other children. You only mention Harold and 'his sibling'. Who is that sibling?
There is the death certificate of Nicholas Lacey which may/not add to any information but you could try.
Were the siblings always known as Harding and are the birth details the same?
It does seem odd as you say - plus the move to Coventry from Bournemouth.
1881 has a Nicholas Lacy with a father Thomas but he is a labourer. They are in Lancashire. I think though that he marries. :-\
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"Othe information I have a Violet White who married an Ablert Gullick, Violet could be a sister to Alice."
I can't see any marriage similar to this - do you have any further information?
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From the information that George gave me his father Harold's siblings were
Frederick
Queenie
Violet
Elizabeth
Patricia
I have a 1911 census for 13 Stewart Road, Bournemouth whhich gives the following:
George Harding 54 Married, years of marriage 10. Tottal children born alive 6, children still living 5 children who have died 1. George is a Green Grocer born Dorchester
Alice Harding, Wife, 30. born London
Louisa Harding Daughter, 34, Single Kitchen Maid on Boarding House, born Bournemouth
Frederick Harding, Son, 8, born Bournemouth
Violet Harding, Daughter, 2 and a half born Bournemouth
Margaret Smith Visitor 25, Married years no children born Liverpool.
Elizabeth and Patricia came to light when we saw George yesterday.
I did think this was the right 1911 census for Harold and family as
Harold BC
shows he was born at 96 Stewart Road, Christchurch Bournmouth
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What led me to getting the MC for Nicholas Lacey was.
When we went to the family history centre in Coventry and went through the electrol books.
I already had in posseion at that time the MC for Harold Henry Harding and Jane Elizabeth Plant and my husband knew where his GGranparents lived so we worked from that.
In 1937 Harold Henry Harding and Jane Elizabeth where living at 50 St Margarets.
We also found the following:
1936
Harold Henry Harding and Jane Elizabeth
1935
Harold Henry Harding and Jane Elizabeth
1934
Harold Henry Harding and Jane Elizabeth
1933
Nicholas Lacey
Harold Harding
Jane Harding
1932
Nicholas Lacey
Alice Lavina Lacey
1931
Nicholas Lacey
Alice Lavina Lacey
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All I have on the Gullick
Is a piece of paper that was handed to me looked like a burial record by Uncle George that showed a Violet Lavina Gullick was either buried or died 1887 Coventry.
I belive it said London Road Cemetary.
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Hi,
I can't find a death for a Violet Lavina Gullick in 1887 anywhere or any Gullicks in Coventry 1887. :-\
How clear is the writing?
Nanny Jan
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To be honest it was not very clear. I was sure it was 1887.
I wish I had taken a copy of it now
Thanks
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The plot thickens ::) and I wonder if there is any significance in the info below bearing in mind the White/Gullick name
There is a marriage of a John Gullick q3 1934, Dover, Kent to an Alice L White or Lacey Vol 2a 3947
JJ (I'm stumped as well :) )
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;D ;D
We'll have to organise a collection for the various certificates.
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There is a Violet A Gullick born abt 1885 and buried Coventry 1953 :-\
Nor can I see anything about a Patricia or Elizabeth Harding/Lacey
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I hesitate to come in on this amongst so many eminent rootschatters but it seems to me that uncle george is the key to this.
He is telling the truth as he knows it, but it is what his father Harold Henry told him.
Rather than explain to hjs son that he is illegitimate he has produced this story to explain to george why he(harold henry) is a harding but his (stepfather) is a Lilley.
georges schoolmates, when h was 7 or 8 would have picked up on this and possibly teased him; maybe this is the answer his father gave
does this make sense :-\ :-\ :-\
mike
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Hello all...... :)
I have been fascinated in watching how this thread is unfolding..... :D
Item reference J 77/3184/7651
Divorce Court File: 7651. Appellant: Alice Lavinia Lacey otherwise Alice Lavinia White. Respondent: Nicholas Lacey. Type: Wife's petition for/of nullity [WN]. ...
Covering dates -1933
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-3156889&j=1
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Interesting its for nullity not divorce - so there is some query about the legitimacy of the 1915 marriage. Options for grounds appear to be
impotence, provided the condition existed before the marriage and was permanent
absence of consent, where consent had been obtained through fraud or coercion, or insanity of one of the parties at the time of the marriage
breach of statute, where the parties were within the prohibited degrees of relationship, or where one or both had not been free to marry at the time of the marriage. This would include cases where a divorced person re-married before they had obtained their decree absolute
bigamy, in which case the injured party had to prove that the first marriage was valid
I would guess we're in the realms of 3 or 4, but not spotted anything in the press on the British Archive. papers loved a good marital case back then
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Dizzifish - That was a good find ;D ;D
Makes the marriage in reply #27 look interesting.................
I think we all 'wait with bated breath' as to the next exciting installment!
JJ
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Great find Dizzifish; might be worth the OP contacting TNA for a "copy and post" quote.
I got a divorce file a couple of years ago for under £10 and it was sent 1st class post!
Nanny Jan
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Blimey You have all been busy little bees. Nothing shocks me these days not with family history.
Thanking you heaps.
Now this might be interesting here goes.
There appears to be a marriage for George John Harding and a Emily Louisa Rogers in Sep 1877 Christchurch
There is a death for Emily Louisa Harding 1905 Wells Somerset.
So it looks like George John Harding and Alice Lavian White were just living together they never actually married but I dot not agree that Harold is illegitimate when there is a father on the BC. However there was a good 20 year age gap.
As Alice was a domestic servant wonder wehther she was the doemstic servant for George and his wife Emily.
How do I go about applying for the divorce record??
Once again thanks for you help and I will keep coming back this I am sure over the next couple of weeks.
As you say the plot thickens
Candis
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If George and Alice never married then Harold would be classed as illegitimate.
To apply for divorce records:
got to http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ then "The Catalogue" then "Search the Catalogue"
put Nicholas Lacey in "word or phrase" and J77 in "Department or Series code" the follow the links .
Nanny Jan
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The case of Lacey, orse. White v Lacey appeared in the list of undefended divorce cases for hearing on 13 November 1933, according to The Times of that date.
A decree absolute followed in due course, according to The Times' law notices of 6 June 1934.
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There is a Nicholas Lacey (b. 1876) featured on a private tree (Harding & Bott) on Ancestry. :-\
Nanny Jan
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Thats my tree
Nanny Jan
I only had the info from the MC
Thanks x
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Oops........... :-[
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Thank you have put a request in for the divorce to be sent to my postal adress.
Is it best if I order one of the other childrens BC for George and Alice or where do I go next?
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Wow! I go out to a birthday party and come back to such brilliant detective work!
As a matter of interest, has Alice Lavinia been found pre her relationship with George?
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You luck boy
No I have no other information on Alice Lavina White other than what is on her MC cert with Nicholas and her father being Henry William White deceased bookmaker.
Frederick Harding who is Harold Henry brother is a so called Actor apparently need to look into this.
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Good Morning All
To Clarify
I have put in a request for the Alice Lavina White and Nicholas Lacey Divorce.
As it looks like I have to go up George John Hardinga side is it best for me to order the MC between him and Emily Louisa Rogers 1877 Christchurch.
I am presently trying to figure out the white side.
What a puzzle and half.
Thanks
Candis
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I love a mystery - hope you get it sorted out. I agree with mazi that the change of name story Uncle George was told by his father, was just to cover up the real story, possibly of divorce and living with someone else whilst not married. People were so judgmental in those days and worried about what the neighbours would think - forgetting that the neighbours were probably hiding their own secrets.
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No I have no other information on Alice Lavina White other than what is on her MC cert with Nicholas and her father being Henry William White deceased bookmaker.
In your first post of this thread you said that Henry William White was described on the marriage certificate as being a deceased door maker ???
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Since bookmaker was an extremely unusual occupation for the time I'm wondering if it actually says 'Bootmaker'.
Annette
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Hi All
Annette you could well be right with Boot Maker. When we fist looked at it we thought Boat maker but that did not ring right. It definatley looks like a squashed b with an o after it and either an o or an a then a t.
Yes Lizzie I am sort of coming to that conclusion
Thanks
Candis
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Hi Somebody found this for me
http://apostcardaday.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/butcher-row.html
Postcard was sent from an Alice to Miss Black c/o Mrs Lee in Ashford Kent.
I will be ordering the MC fo John Gullick and either Alice L White/Lacey 3rd quatter 1934, Dover, Kent.
It has to be the Alice I am looking for.
Spoke to George this morning and Alice died as a Gullick.
Still waiting on the divorce records but thought I would post this.
Thanks
Candis
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Thanks Candis for keeping us informed. I'm sure there are many of us that will be interested in the outcome of the documentation which you are waiting on.
Regards
JJ
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I am now in possession of Harold Henry Hardings DC
Date of death August 26 August 1969 Walsgrave Hospital, Coventry
Occupation Storekeeper
Address 50 St Margaret Road, Coventry
Date and place of Birth 17 September 1906 Bournemouth
Informant John Harding, Son, 89 Parry Road, Coventry.
Cause of death
1a Haematemesis
b Chirrhosis of the liver
c
2
cannot read the last two trying to figure them out.
Candis
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I am now in possession of Harold Henry Hardings DC
Date of death August 26 August 1969 Walsgrave Hospital, Coventry
Occupation Storekeeper
Address 50 St Margaret Road, Coventry
Date and place of Birth 17 September 1906 Bournemouth
Informant John Harding, Son, 89 Parry Road, Coventry.
Cause of death
1a Haematemesis
b Chirrhosis of the liver
c
2
cannot read the last two trying to figure them out.
Candis
Any mention of varices, I wonder? And/or portal vein hypertension/thrombosis/obstruction?
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Hi Candis,
The birth date on the DC matches that of the BC (which is always a bonus)
Therefore that solves the mystery of Harold Henry Harding's death (1969 or 1973) ;D,
JJ
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Yes JJ it sure does thanks for that :)
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Hi Avm
something ochromatosis
Myocardinal Infection
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Could be haemochromatosis?
And myocardial infarction?
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Yes thats it
Thanks
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Update
Proven at last
-- the White family of Robert are connected to Alice Lavinia White
Lily Rosabel White = John Gullick
-- Obituary
Mrs J Gullick Funeral of Mrs Lily Rosabelle Gullick wife of Mr J Gullick 14 Limekiln Street Dover -53years old
Mourners
Mr T Gullick [J] husband -- Mrs A Lacey sister - Mr and Mrs F Gullick brother and sister-in-law -- Mr N Lacey brother-in-law -- Miss Dolly Smith maid..
Dover Express 01 November 1929
I have also ordered the MC between John Gullick and Alice L Lacey White Sept 1934 Dover, Kent
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Looks like the jigsaw is coming together ;D
Lily Rosabelle Gullick of 14 Limekiln Street, Dover death date - 25 Oct 1929
JJ
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She seems also to be spelled Lily Rosabel - as on the two probate entries for her (one from 1929 and another for 2settled land" in 1956) and her marriage to John Gullick in Honiton in 1903
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This looks like the best match for Lily Rosabel on 1881, in the Golden Square area . Robert is a bootmaker. All b London
Robert White 45
Mary Ann White 35
Mary Ann White 12
Robert F. White 10
Georgina White 8
George William White 7
Lilly Rose White 5
Mary Ansel White 3
Robert Allen 2 [Probably Mabel - female]
Sarah Susan White 1
RG11/122/40/16
1911 - from Familysearch
Lily Rosabell Gullick
Age 35
birthplace London Petherwin, London
registration district: Bromley
sub-district: Beckenham
parish: Beckenham
county: Kent
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Hi Mabel
Thanks for that.
Is wondering where Alice is and why Alice had listed Henry William White as her father on her marriage to Nicholas Lacey. Is still awaiting the marriage cert for John Gullick and the divorce papers.
Will post again once I have one of these or both..
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I am now in possession of the divorce papers,
Petition filed 19 June 1933, Cause set down 10 August 1933, Decree Nisi 18 Nov 1933,yFinal Jun 1934
19 Jun 1933 petition for nultiy
Lacey orse White A L against Lacey N
Upon hearing the solicitor for the petitioner and reading the certificate of non appearance of the respondent.
Inspectors were appointed to examine the parts and organs of generation of Nicholas Lacey the Respondent. and also to examine the parts and organs of generation Alice Lavinia Lacey otherwise White the Petitioner.
It was decided the 13 November 1933 That the respondent be pronounced and declared and have been and to be absolutley null and void to all intents and purposes in the law whatsoever by reason of the incapacity of the respondent to consumate the marriage and the said petitioner
I have give a brief outline of what is on the papers.
Regards
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goodness - of all the four reasons to apply for annulment I wasn't expecting that one!
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Neither was I - over 18 years after the marriage!
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Presumably she was lining up to marry John Gullick so needed a way out, but this is an odd one for a man to agree to! They were married by July 13 1934 (according to a free search on British newspapers for John Gullick in Dover), almost as soon as the absolute was received
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Nicholas never tunred up for the hearing so Alice won the case.
I personally think she had a flipping cheek she had already had how many kids with Mr George Harding, but maybe Nicholas is no saint either.
Intersting though at the time of the divorce she was living at 95 St Margaret Road, Coventry. So not so far away from where she was lving with Nicholas which was 50 St Maragaret Road.
Just waiting on the MC for Gullick and Lacey/White
Thanks
Candis
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In possession of MC for Gullick and Lacey/White
Married 11 July 1934, Dover Kent
John Gullick 59 Widower, General Provision popaler. 14 Limekiln Street, Dover. father, JOhn Gullick dececeased General Labourer
Alice Lavinia Lacey formerly White 55 Formerly the wife of Nicholas Lacey from who she married a divorce. 29 Woolcomber Street. Father Henry William White deceased Boat Maker Master
Witnesses John Pratt and Charles R Millway
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I orderd the death certificate for Violet Alice Gullick this appears to be the right lady.
Violet Alice Gullick aged 68 died 09 June 1953 Gulson Hospital.
Occupation of 18 Carmelite Road Coventry, Wife of John Gullick Labourer Machine Tool Works (Retired)
Cause of death coronary Thrombosis Informant F G Harding Son 7 Leofric Street Coventry.
Believe this is her son Frederick who was the so called actor.
Candis
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Well. What a tangled web. I've been following this thread as it was so interesting.
Do you think you'll be able to tell Uncle George?