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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Moray (Elginshire) => Topic started by: kb0fhp on Tuesday 25 September 12 02:49 BST (UK)
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I am not sure where to proceed from here.
I have been working diligently on the Hay family and have made fair progress.
I have been trying to gather the ancestors of William Hay born 1787 in Duffus. I gathered his baptism record and death record and was able to determine that the parents were James Hay b 06 March 1760 and Elspet Forsyth b 1760. Her father was William Forsyth from the baptism record of her son William. From the baptism record of James Hay, I was able to determine that the parents were William Hay and Margaret Forbes. From the baptism record of James, there was a witness of James Hay (I suspect William's father) in Orlage and James Forbes (I suspect Margaret's father) in Nether Dalachie. William and Margaret Forbes married 23 Dec 1755 in Bellie, Moray (both of that parish). They had the following children in order:
Janet Hay 1756
Isabell Hay 1757
James Hay 1760
Margaret Hay 1760 (twin of James)
John Hay 1783
Helen Hay 1768.
Following typical naming convention, Margaret's mother would likely have the first name of Janet. I do a search of James Forbes and Janet. and I determine that James Forbes and Janet Gordon had a child Margaret 14 October 1733 in Bellie Moray. So far so good.
Thinking that they are following traditional naming convention (and they had for several generations previous like clockwork), the father of William Hay would be James (he appears on the baptism of James Hay 1760), and the mother of William would likely be Isabel.
I perform a search on Familysearch.org and find a James Hay and Issabell Allan in Urquhart, Moray - not too far from Bellie (under 5 km across farmland). They have children born all in Urquhart, Moray:
Christian 1731
James 1734
and Joesph 1735.
No William (I suspect that he would be born about 1733). No luck. I search SP Moray records - and only find a record for a James Hay and Jean Nichol, with the birth in 1727. I also checked the Moray libindex with no luck (but I have never had much luck with that).
Several questions - Where is Orlage Moray? I can't seem to find it. The only references I find are associated with clocks.
How do I proceed now - I appear to be at a dead end with the Hay family. They appear to be related to the Hay Family of Cummingston:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,538155.0.html
Not sure where to proceed.
Thank you for all your help
Scott
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Perhaps you have misread the place "Orlage". The National Library of Scotland has an excellent (free) maps website which will allow you to view old maps of Scotland. These include Roy's fairly detailed map of 1747-1755 and large scale Ordnance Survey maps from the 19th century. Have a look at them and they may throw up something.
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I agree with GR2, there is no such place in Moray. Orton and Orbliston do spring to mind, but if the 'O' is wrong I can't think where it might be.
If you can post an extract of the original record that contains 'Orlage', we might have some ideas what it might be.
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Here is the record - I think I properly extracted it. I looked at other letters, and "O" seems the most likely.
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Yes, it looks clear enough. So we are looking for a place that no longer exists, and if it is near the rest it is somewhere in the parish of Bellie.
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I looked Orlage up in Jamison's : http://www.electricscotland.com/history/jamieson/
Apparently this is an old dictionary of the Scottish language showing usage. It is related to a clock face - perhaps a clockmaker? Or the clock itself? Living in a clock tower?
Not sure what to make of this.....
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I have had a look at the old maps of Bellie and Orlage does not show up at all. There is a place called Ordiga to the south of Auchenhalrig, that's the closest I can see.
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Likewise.
Ordiga is a bit vague as it is part of the forest. There might have been a farm or croft there at one time, but even if there were, the writing in the extract is quite clear.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/search.php?i=36374721
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I am wondering if the record was showing occupation as a clockmaker instead of a residence.
There are a series of clock makers in Scotland from the book Old Scottish clockmakers from 1453 to 1850 (1921) by Author: Smith, John, clock-maker http://archive.org/details/oldscottishclock00smitrich which is available through archive.org
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I am wondering if the record was showing occupation as a clockmaker instead of a residence.
Interesting - the others are all identifiable places.
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I know. The place description doesnt exist. Maybe the person started writing orlage in .... and started writing the other people. That is the only rational thing I can think of - unless Orlage is the location of the town clock and lived near there - I really have no clue and how to proceed....
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Orlage must be a place. It is not uncommon for placenames to disappear as small crofts are incorporated into larger farms. He is definitely not a clockmaker. In 18th century Scotland, clocks and watches were fairly uncommon. They were actually taxed and in the Statistical Account compiled at the end of the century, ministers sometimes comment on there being e.g. two watches in the parish. Clockmakers tended to be found in the larger towns, not in a rural setting.
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I know. The place description doesnt exist. Maybe the person started writing orlage in .... and started writing the other people. That is the only rational thing I can think of - unless Orlage is the location of the town clock and lived near there - I really have no clue and how to proceed....
kb0fhp, I think you are beginning to clutch at straws. There isn't a town in Bellie - only the village of Fochabers, and even that did not exist in 1760; it was only founded in 1776. There are two kirks with clocks; one built in 1798 and the other after 1843. If you lived in a rural area in the 1760s you didn't need a clock to tell you exactly what time it was.
GR2's explanation is the rational one.
The only way I can think of to pursue this is to look for estate papers. I see from the online catalogue of the Scottish Archive Network http://www.scan.org.uk/catalogue/ that the papers of the Gordon Family, Dukes of Gordon (Gordon Castle Muniments) are held in the National Records of Scotland under reference GD234 and GD244. It also says, "Further material relative to the Gordon Castle estates is available among the Crown Estate papers, also held in the National Archives of Scotland: CR6 - Glenbucket Estate Office records, 1770-1883 and CR8 - Fochabers Estate Office records, 1490-1951. Both contain rentals, ledgers, letter books, cash books, etc."
Just as a matter of interest, you said at the outset, I have been trying to gather the ancestors of William Hay born 1787 in Duffus. I gathered his baptism record and death record and was able to determine that the parents were James Hay b 06 March 1760 and Elspet Forsyth b 1760.
I'd be very interested to know what evidence you have to prove that the James Hay baptised in Bellie on 6 March 1760 and the James Hay who married Elspet Forsyth are one and the same?
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I know. The place description doesnt exist. Maybe the person started writing orlage in .... and started writing the other people. That is the only rational thing I can think of - unless Orlage is the location of the town clock and lived near there - I really have no clue and how to proceed....
kb0fhp, I think you are beginning to clutch at straws. There isn't a town in Bellie - only the village of Fochabers, and even that did not exist in 1760; it was only founded in 1776. There are two kirks with clocks; one built in 1798 and the other after 1843. If you lived in a rural area in the 1760s you didn't need a clock to tell you exactly what time it was.
GR2's explanation is the rational one.
The only way I can think of to pursue this is to look for estate papers. I see from the online catalogue of the Scottish Archive Network http://www.scan.org.uk/catalogue/ that the papers of the Gordon Family, Dukes of Gordon (Gordon Castle Muniments) are held in the National Records of Scotland under reference GD234 and GD244. It also says, "Further material relative to the Gordon Castle estates is available among the Crown Estate papers, also held in the National Archives of Scotland: CR6 - Glenbucket Estate Office records, 1770-1883 and CR8 - Fochabers Estate Office records, 1490-1951. Both contain rentals, ledgers, letter books, cash books, etc."
Just as a matter of interest, you said at the outset, I have been trying to gather the ancestors of William Hay born 1787 in Duffus. I gathered his baptism record and death record and was able to determine that the parents were James Hay b 06 March 1760 and Elspet Forsyth b 1760.
I'd be very interested to know what evidence you have to prove that the James Hay baptised in Bellie on 6 March 1760 and the James Hay who married Elspet Forsyth are one and the same?
I think GR2 is right - is has to be a place that has vanished over time.
I haven't been following this for very long and am a very raw amateur at this. I have some family records which are sparse, but to answer your question, I have little to document that James that was baptized is the same one who married Elspet Forsyth. I have a hint in my family names - but that doesn't mean that they are the same ones.
How do I access the records cited? Are they available on-line? As I indicated, I am pretty inexperienced with many of the records of Scotland other than that of SP. Thank you for your help directing me.
Scott
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I have written the Fochabers Heritage Center in the hope that they can possibly suggest some possible locations - it is a long shot, but worth a try.
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How do I access the records cited? Are they available on-line?
They are in the National Archives Records of Scotland in Edinburgh and only the catalogue references are available online. You would either need to go to Edinburgh in person, or hire a searcher to go and look on your behalf. If you are keen to access these records I would recommend the latter course, as it takes a while to become familiar with the system in the NAS. There are links on www.nas.gov.uk to lists of accredited searchers.
However if you don't have definite evidence to prove that your James Hay who married Elspet Forsyth was the one born in Bellie, you might spend a lot of time or money pursuing someone not related to you at all. Both Hay and Forsyth are common enough surnames in Moray, and it is quite possible - even likely - that your James Hay is someone totally different whose baptism record has not survived.
Please let us know what Fochabers Heritage tells you.
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How do I access the records cited? Are they available on-line?
They are in the National Archives Records of Scotland in Edinburgh and only the catalogue references are available online. You would either need to go to Edinburgh in person, or hire a searcher to go and look on your behalf. If you are keen to access these records I would recommend the latter course, as it takes a while to become familiar with the system in the NAS. There are links on www.nas.gov.uk to lists of accredited searchers.
However if you don't have definite evidence to prove that your James Hay who married Elspet Forsyth was the one born in Bellie, you might spend a lot of time or money pursuing someone not related to you at all. Both Hay and Forsyth are common enough surnames in Moray, and it is quite possible - even likely - that your James Hay is someone totally different whose baptism record has not survived.
Please let us know what Fochabers Heritage tells you.
I will absolutely communicate with everyone what the Fochabers Heritage tells me.
I understand what you are saying - and we have a bit of circular logic. I am not sure that the people are the same, so need to access the Archives to determine if it is - but I could spend a lot of time/money/effort tracking down someone that may not be the person I seek - I am not sure how is the best way to resolve it besides taking the risk (or calling it a dead end and leaving it there).
I will make some inquiries and tell everyone what I determine - thank you.
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I received an email from the Fochabers Heritage Center today. Here is what they indicated:
Thank you for your interesting email, I'm afraid at the moment Orlage is puzzling us too, I spoke to the Local Studies officer but he drew a blank, we will keep trying to get an answer.
Balfour is actually Badfour, this was a farm at Enzie. , Badfour would be about 9 miles (by road) from Auchenhalrig (todays spelling) . This would seem right as the witnesses at the baptism wouldn't have travelled too far which is why tracing Orlag is such a puzzle as we presume it is in this vicinity but of course the 1st rule of genealogy research is never presume!. Badfour Farm is first mentioned in 1590 and belonged to the Gordon family.
Todays spelling of Nether and Upper Dalachie is Dallachy, they are both busy growing communities. During WW11 there was an airbase there RAF Dallachy, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British squadrons of Coastal Command flew Beaufighters attacking German shipping, mainly along the Norwegian and Dutch coasts, Do you use Libindx (Moray Local Heritage Births Deaths Index) in your searches?, it's a good source of information and available to everyone on the internet.
We will certainly get back to you if anything about Orlage surfaces, if we can be of any help with anything else please get in touch.
So the hunt continues......
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Interesting, but not surprising. (I had already checked with the Local Studies staff and LIBINDX). Let's hope they can manage to dig something up for you.
Orlage is not on any of the online maps at http://maps.nls.uk/index.html. The Moll and Roy ones from the 1740s and 1750s show a lot of places that no longer exist, or are no longer known by the names then recorded, and there are also quite a few places shown but not labelled with a name. The Thomson one of 1832 looks much the same as the modern maps.
So I think it will have to be the estate records.
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I know. The place description doesnt exist. Maybe the person started writing orlage in .... and started writing the other people. That is the only rational thing I can think of - unless Orlage is the location of the town clock and lived near there - I really have no clue and how to proceed....
kb0fhp, I think you are beginning to clutch at straws. There isn't a town in Bellie - only the village of Fochabers, and even that did not exist in 1760; it was only founded in 1776. There are two kirks with clocks; one built in 1798 and the other after 1843. If you lived in a rural area in the 1760s you didn't need a clock to tell you exactly what time it was.
GR2's explanation is the rational one.
The only way I can think of to pursue this is to look for estate papers. I see from the online catalogue of the Scottish Archive Network http://www.scan.org.uk/catalogue/ that the papers of the Gordon Family, Dukes of Gordon (Gordon Castle Muniments) are held in the National Records of Scotland under reference GD234 and GD244. It also says, "Further material relative to the Gordon Castle estates is available among the Crown Estate papers, also held in the National Archives of Scotland: CR6 - Glenbucket Estate Office records, 1770-1883 and CR8 - Fochabers Estate Office records, 1490-1951. Both contain rentals, ledgers, letter books, cash books, etc."
Just as a matter of interest, you said at the outset, I have been trying to gather the ancestors of William Hay born 1787 in Duffus. I gathered his baptism record and death record and was able to determine that the parents were James Hay b 06 March 1760 and Elspet Forsyth b 1760.
I'd be very interested to know what evidence you have to prove that the James Hay baptised in Bellie on 6 March 1760 and the James Hay who married Elspet Forsyth are one and the same?
How is the best way to determine that the James Hay that married Elspet Forsyth is the one baptized 06 March 1760? As I indicated, I am a raw amateur at this.
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One thing you can do is find all the records of James and Elspet's children being baptised. The witnesses may point in a particular direction. If you are lucky, there may be a name or relationship given which helps make the link.
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Thank you - that is a good idea. I never would have thought of that. Luckily I have the record of them, but not the certificates.
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How is the best way to determine that the James Hay that married Elspet Forsyth is the one baptized 06 March 1760? As I indicated, I am a raw amateur at this.
I think you are perhaps starting with the wrong question. You need to ask, "How can I find out who were the parents of James Hay who married Elspet Forsyth?"
You have to bear in mind that there may not in fact be any surviving record of James Hay's baptism. You must not assume that just because there is one born about the right time in the same county, he has to be yours.
First of all, consider the names of their children, in order, because this might give you a clue to their parents' names. I think you have already done this. The children listed on FamilySearch are
Elspat, 1785, Duffus
William, 1787, Duffus
George, 1798, Duffus
Alexander, 1811, Elgin
Unfortunately there are huge gaps; 11 years between William and George, and 13 years between George and Alexander. There is no way of knowing whether these are genuine gaps, or whether there were other children whose baptism records have not survived, or who died before they were baptised. So other than suggesting that James Hay's father might have been a William, this approach isn't going to work.
Have you got all four of the full baptism records? If not, you need to get them. They may contain some sort of clue - a witness named Hay with where (s)he lived, for example. The best thing would be to go to somewhere where you can rent a copy of the microfilm of the Duffus parish register and read through it looking for Hays who are listed as witnesses to baptisms, noting their names, the dates, where they resided and who else were the co-witnesses. If you are lucky, you may be able to build up a picture of where the Hays resided, and who their friends and neighbours were.
Go to LIBINDX and just put in the surname Hay and then in turn look up the ones born, married or died in Duffus. If any of them died after 1855, get their death certificates and seen what that adds to the collection of information. You might get lucky and find a death registered by a first or second cousin that might give a clue. There is, for instance, a Jane Hay, wife of Robert Gray, who was born in Duffus and died in Elgin in 1879 aged 87. Could she be another child of James and Elspet? Did she have children? Who were the witnesses at their baptisms? Is she the same person as Ian Gray, maiden name Hay, who applied to Elgin Parochial Board in 1878? If so, her application, available from the Moray Local Heritage Centre, will provide quite a lot of information about her and her origins, and her death certificate should name her parents.
Have a look through the Duffus Kirk Session records to see if any Hays were mentioned there. This isn't an easy job, because you have to go to a repository where you can access them and the sit and peer through pages of digital images. Make a note of anything you find relating to Hays, with the date, residence and anyone associated with them.
Look in the 1841 and 1851 census at FreeCEN to see if any of your Hays are recorded - maybe one of them might be living with a cousin or other relative.
Putting together all you can find out about the Hays in Duffus might just begin to show patterns or pointers. It won't be easy, and it may take a long time, but you may be rewarded.
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OK - I am in the process of getting all the baptism records. Interestingly, Elspat and William baptisms records are on the same page. The record for Elspat indicates 21 May 1785 and the record immediately below it is for William, dates 23 May 1787. The record immediately before Elspat's record is dated 1787, so I suspect that 1785 may be an error in recording, and may be 1787. The record for William shows that a William Forsyth was present. The statutory record for William Hay shows James Hay and Elspet Forsyth as parents. Unfortunately, the marriage Bann does not show anything. James does name his first son as William, so this is a possible hit that James' father was named William, if they followed normal naming convention (and they tended to do so).
I will let you know what I find.
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Interestingly, Elspat and William baptisms records are on the same page. The record for Elspat indicates 21 May 1785 and the record immediately below it is for William, dates 23 May 1787. The record immediately before Elspat's record is dated 1787, so I suspect that 1785 may be an error in recording, and may be 1787.
No, it is probably not a recording error. The chances are that they didn't get Elspet's baptism recorded at the time, and only realised their omission when they went to get William baptised, or maybe the sesson clerk or the minister had to prod them into doing the correct thing. This is quite common - sometimes you get a whole page in the register taken up with a string of late records.
Notice that the parents' banns were on 17 March and Elspet was born on 21 May of the same year - also not uncommon. The kirk session records, if extant, will almost certainly have something to say about the matter.
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I note that your initial posting gave a date of birth for Elspet Forsyth as 1760. If she had a son, Alexander, born in 1811, 1760 is probably too early.
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The 1760 date is a rough estimate based on the birth of the first child - it could be +/- 10 years. Because of the gap in children I suspect that there was another marriage, but stranger things have happened.
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According to FamilySearch, the parents of Alexander Hay, baptised 30th June 1811, were James Hay and Elspet Forsyth.
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I just downloaded the baptism record. I have downloaded each of the children's baptism records - and unfortunately it only gave me a clue regarding father of Elspet Forsyth. Alexander was born in Elgin, with James being a candlemaker. I search Libindx for candlemaker with no hits. So I "shotgun" it looking for James Hay in Moray in SP and get 23 hits - some were much too late. I guess I have to run down each one - but then there is the chance that James was not born in Moray.
I am wondering if the James Hay/Elspet Forsyth that had Alexander Hay is also the same ones that had William Hay....
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I am wondering if the James Hay/Elspet Forsyth that had Alexander Hay is also the same ones that had William Hay....
I wondered that too. I haven't found another record of a marriage of a James Hay to an Elspet Forsyth, but that doesn't mean to say it didn't happen.
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Great - now I have two of them to worry about :). I was a bit suspicious because born in Elgin although it is not really far at all, and a candlemaker. Other documents described him as a laborer. For now I will make the assumption that it is a different family.
I have looked on the web about the Duffus Kirk Sessions. Interestingly there was a lot of turmoil about the Duffus Kirk at that time. In 1688 it appears that William Hay, an exiled bishop of Moray, appointed a priest Rev. John Stewart. Perhaps there has to be some relation there.
How is the best way to obtain the Kirk Sessions for this time frame and Parish?
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How is the best way to obtain the Kirk Sessions for this time frame and Parish?
That depends where you are. If you can conveniently go to Edinburgh, you can look at them there in the National Archives of Scotland in General Register House in Princes Street.
If you can go to certain other archives in Scotland - Aberdeen and Inverness for instance, but there are others, of which I don't have a complete list - you can view them there.
Otherwise you either have to wait until they are made available on line (this year, next year, sometime .... but not never, I hope) or get a professional searcher to go through them on your behalf.
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Thank you....I have also contacted other researching the Hay's in Cummingston and see what information they have.
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Assuming that James Hay was born in Moray, I did a quick search via familysearch.org on James Hay, birthplace Moray, with birth date between 1755 and 1768. I made the assumption that he was between 17 and 30 when he got married. This produced 10 possibles:
James Hay & Elizabeth Stuart (Bellie)
William Hay and Margaret Forbes (Bellie)
James Hay and Mary Douglas (Bellie)
James Hay and Mary Douglas (Bellie - I can assume that the first one died)
Alexander Hay and Janet Cowie (Bellie)
James Hay - no mother listed (Dyke)
John Hay and Anna Falconar (Raddford)
John Hay and Christian Hay (St. Andrews-Lhanbryd)
William Hay and Jean Johnston (Alves)
Alexander Hay and Margaret Gregor (Elgin)
From SP I obtained one more:
William Hay and Beatrix Paterson (Bellie)
James and Elspet Forsyth had the following children:
Elspat
William
George
Alexander
Elspat's father was William Forsyth I am assuming since he was a witness at James' son Williams's birth. So if naming conventions are followed, then the first born son is named after the father's father or mother's father. So I know that William was his mother's father - so George (or William) would be the Father's father. However, I can find no George.
I am not sure where to go except to start looking up the baptism records of each of the possible parents - is there a better method to prune the tree?
Thanks
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I am wondering if Orlage could actually be Orlege. There is a cottage near Edinburgh. While a good distance away, at least the spelling matches. I have had no such luck tracking this down
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I am following the same two Wm Hay and Margaret and their lines, via son James
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I'm afraid Orlage will just be one of the many places that have disappeared, either abandoned, renamed or subsumed within a neighbouring holding. The one outside Edinburgh is too far away. It has to be within he parish. If you ever had the opportunity, you could look through other baptisms from the parish register about that time and see if anyone else shared the address.