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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: pmrobbo on Wednesday 03 October 12 12:36 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find out any information or where to look for information on Samuel Alfred LINDSAY. According to newspaper articles he served with the 58th foot Regiment in New Zealand in the 1840s. See references below. His wife was Honora (nee Carroll) Lindsay and she died in Auckland on 26 September 1893. I can find no death registry reference for him. Certainly his wife and son Alfred James LINDSAY lived and died in Auckland. His son Alfred James LINDSAY married Martha Anne Burke (of Martha's Corner's fame - the corner of Wellesley and Albert Streets).
The references to 58 Foot and Samuel Lindsay are:
Auckland Star, Volume XXIV, Issue 230, 5 October 1893, Page 8
"LINDSAY. -On September 26, 1893, at her, daughter's residence, Cook-street, Auckland,' after a long and painful illness, Mrs Samuel Lindsay, 82 years of age, wife of the late Samuel Lindsay, of the 58th Regiment, who served through tho Hutt war at Wellington; also in the first engagement at Wanganui under Sir Geo. Grey. Mother of 8 children, 28 grandchildren, 26 great-grandchildren.- Sydney and Melbourne papers please copy.”
[Wellington] Evening Post - 13 July 1892 Page 2
"JOTTINGS. Sir Julius Vogel is petitioning the House, through Mr. Duthie, for consideration. Honora Lindsay, widow of Samuel Lindsay, late 58th Regiment, is asking the Honse to consider her late husband's military services at the Hutt, Tikipaparoa, the Bay of Islands, and Wanganui. "
From Wikipedia
The 58th was formed in 1755 for service during the Seven Years' War. Originally numbered the 60th Regiment of Foot, and bearing the name of its colonel, Robert Anstruther, it was re-numbered in 1757 as the 58th Regiment of Foot. In 1779, during the American War of Independence they were stationed at Gibraltar, taking part in the Great Siege from 1779 to 1783. In 1782 they acquired their county association, becoming the 58th Rutlandshire Regiment. In the French Revolutionary Wars the 58th saw action in Egypt at the Battle of Alexandria, and later, under Wellington in the Peninsular campaign. During this they fought at Salamanca and at Burgos. In 1843 the 58th regiment took over garrison duties in New South Wales from the 80th who had been posted to India.[1] In 1845 they were sent to New Zealand because of Maori unrest in the Bay of Islands due to dissatisfaction with the Treaty of Waitangi. The regiment remained in N.Z. until November 1858 having been in action during the Northern Wars, Wanganui and north of Wellington during 1845-47. On embarkation for England, the regiment consisted of 16 officers and 194 men. Over 300 men of the regiment took discharge in New Zealand
In the book "Discharged in New Zealand: soldiers of the imperial foot regiments who took this discharge in New Zealand 1840-1870" by Hugh and Lyn Hughes (Call number is NZ 929.3 H89 - Auckland City Library), Samuel Lindsay is not mentioned in the list of discharged soldiers of the 58 foot who decided to settle in New Zealand when the regiment left New Zealand in 1850. As I said I can find no death register reference. However there are two death reference that may be Samuel which might mean that he died when serving in the regiment:
1. Early Auckland Deaths: http://ouraucklandstuff.freeservers.com/AuckDeathsK-L.htm
"LINDSAY Died 5th June 1852, Samuel Lindsay, aged 39 years"
and
2. New Zealand Birth Deaths and Marriages website under registered deaths.
1848/872 Samuel Lindsay
I have order a copy of that death certificate. I cannot find any reference to the 1852.
It is all a mystery. So any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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Hello and welcome to RC
The Symonds St cemetery database has "The Anglican Sexton's list has a Lindsay who was a soldier at Block C 269, no St Paul's register link."
I see Honora,Alfred and Martha are all buried there
http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/symondsst/sscem.html
Cheers Janette
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Thank you for that.
For some reason I had presumed that the Lindsays were Catholic so had missed that possibility.
What I am trying to sort now is that we may be looking at two sets of Lindsays in Auckland at the same time.
Samuel Lindsay (a shoemaker) and Honora (nee Carroll) Lindsay
and
Samuel Lindsay and Honora (nee O'Connor) Lindsay . Honora died in Auckland in 1893 - married to a soldier
I now have the death information from eternal affairs for Honora (nee O'Connor) and also for the son of Honora (nee Carroll) who was Alfred James Lindsay born 1850 in Auckland and died 1913.
So the mystery continues.
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Hi pmrobbo ... welcome. :)
Just so we can try to assist you further, can you give clarification on a few things, please ?
Samuel Lindsay (a shoemaker) and Honora (nee Carroll) Lindsay
* Where does this information - Samuel (a shoemaker) come from ?
Samuel Lindsay and Honora (nee O'Connor) Lindsay . Honora died in Auckland in 1893 - married to a soldier
* Does Honora LINDSAY's death certificate of 1893, state that her maiden name was "O'CONNOR" ?
* And also, does the death cert. of Alfred James LINDSAY, state that his mother's maiden name was "CARROLL" ?
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Mmm ... I can't see another couple in NZ named Samuel and Honora (or variants) LINDSAY. And there is just a single NZ death listing for an "Honora LINDSAY" (the one you have in 1893) ... likewise, just the one "Samuel LINDSAY death, 1848, which would fit the timeframe. [Can't explain either why the apparent 1852, is not listed. It would be worth though checking the microfiche Death Index which can be accessed at most larger libraries. We do get cases from time to time, where births, marriages and deaths are missing from NZ BDM's online site (usually due to misspellings).
Cheers
~ Lu
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Evening Post - 13 July 1892 Page 2
"JOTTINGS. Sir Julius Vogel is petitioning the House, through Mr. Duthie, for consideration. Honora Lindsay, widow of Samuel Lindsay, late 58th Regiment, is asking the Honse to consider her late husband's military services at the Hutt, Tikipaparoa, the Bay of Islands, and Wanganui. "
It does seem rather odd that if say, Samuel died as far back as 1852 / 1848, Honora waited until 1892 before making this "claim" ? Forty years, at least ! ::)
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I did however spot the following file which is held at Archives New Zealand in Wellington.
http://archway.archives.govt.nz
Naval and Military Land Claims Commission 1896 and 1910 [record group]
LINDSAY - Samuel (deceased) - H.M. 58th Regiment
[claimed] by his widow, Ann LINDSAY, Auckland
Certainly this file is dated after the death of Honora LINDSAY (1893) ... and it names this Samuel's widow as "Ann" ... but I think it would be worth viewing (if only to establish if there was another Samuel LINDSAY in the 58th.)
If you'd like, I can take a look at the file, when I'm next at the Archives. Let me know.
~ Lu
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Lu
Thank you for your help. Much appreciated. I had seen the reference to Ann Lindsay. Sometimes in the families they are known by different names that happens frequently. I wondered if Ann could be Honora Ann Lindsay. Just speculative. Samuel's son Alfred James - his wife is Martha Ann(e) nee Burke. Martha's Corner in the Auckland CBD opposite the Sky City Casino (Albert and Victoria Streets) is named after her. Martha's mother Catherine (nee Myers) is known as Catherine Burke and also Catherine Townsend (Townshend) and that is because she is married to two people in Auckland at the same time. See Michael Burkes Statement. There is quite a bit of information on the "slums" of Chancery Lane in Auckland which the Lindsays, Burkes, Townsends are connected
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS18780521.2.11&srpos=1&e=01-01-1860-01-01-1890--10--1----0michael+burkes+statement--
Back to your questions. Yesterday the information from BDM arrived by email for Honora Lindsay died 1893 Auckland and also Alfred James Lindsay the son of Samuel Lindsay and Honora Lindsay who died in 1913 in Auckland. Another piece of information - a son of Alfred James Lindsay is named Samuel Alfred Lindsay after his grandfather. He was a jockey, and won three NZ Cups and was my great grandfather.
The information that arrived yesterday:
No: 711
When and where died: 1893 26 September
Name and Surname, Rank: Honora Lindsay - Widow
Sex and Age: F 82 years
Cause, Duration, Attendant, Last saw: General Debility, Dr Keud?? 26 September 1893
Father, Mother &maiden name, Profession of Father: ?? O'Connor, Honora O'Connor, farmer
When and where buried: 27 September 1893 Auckland
Name & religion of Minister: Rev ? ? du Riew, Church of England
Where born, how long in NZ: Limerick 52 years
Where married, at what age, to whom: Ireland, 16 years Samuel Lindsay
If issue living: 1 Male 45 years, 2 Female 56 years and 42 years
Informant: C Little Undertaker Auckland
Registrar: E H Lyons 4 October 1893
No: 237
When and where died: 1913 19 February Auckland Hospital from Victoria Street
Name and Surname, Rank: Alfred James Lindsay - Dealer
Sex and Age: M 63 years
Cause, Duration, Attendant, Last saw: Intestinal obstruction. Cardiac failure - Dr Maguire 19th February 1913
Father, Mother &maiden name, Profession of Father: Samuel Alfred Lindsay, Honora Lindsay formerly Carrol, Shoemaker
When and where buried: 1913 23 Feb - Symonds Street
Name & religion of Minister: Rev E.J. McLaughlin Roman Catholic
Where born, how long in NZ: Auckland Life
Where married, At what Age, To whom: Auckland, 19, Martha Anne Burke, Widow 60
If issue living: 5 Males 43,35 33, 28, 25 2 Females 42 39
Informant: J Little authorised agent for C Little undertaker
Registrar: ?? 7 March 1913.
I have also ordered from BDM the information for a Samuel Lindsay who died in 1848.
Once again thank you for your help.
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Welcome to RootsChat from me too :)
Haven't done any looking about for you but my interpretation of the cert info "Honora Lindsay formerly Carrol" would probably indicate a former marriage rather than a maiden name ?
:) mare
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Hi there was a death for Samuel LINSAY in 1860. The registration is 1860/70 in BDM NZ online. Possibly this could be him?? I have often found relatives with differing spelling, that is why hide so well. Fingers crossed :)
Tiki
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Cheers. That is most helpful I will request the information and see what happens.
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Hi pmrobbo
Thanks for the clarification.
Now I see from Honora's death certificate, that there was a living daughter aged 42 years [bc 1851] ... so Alfred James had a younger sibling (also born in NZ).
On the link you gave in your initial posting - "Early Auckland Deaths" at the ouraucklandstuff website, there used to also be available, an "Early Auckland Births" listing. Sadly the link seems no longer to be working. But it is an excellent resource which contains early births (I think covering the wider Auckland region? ) - many of which were extracted from church records and don't necessarily appear on NZ BDM's site.
Are you in proximity to Auckland Library ? If so, they have it in their catalogue as "Births Pertaining to Early Auckland : Shirley E. KENDALL".
I have managed to find some information for the daughter at whose home, Honora LINDSAY, died.
~ Lu
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Cheers. Unfortunately I am based in Brisbane these days. Just about to board a plane for Singapore, heading to a meeting in Nairobi. Won't be back in Auckland until late November.
Thank you for all the help. most appreciated.
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At the ancestry website, there is a "tree" which follows the line of Matilda BARCHARD (m. John TREWHELLA - 1877 at Auckland - and eventually moved to Australia).
[Marriage notice - PapersPast - "Thames Advertiser" - 25 January 1877 - page 2. ]
Matilda BARCHARD (b. 1855) was the daughter of Eliza LINDSAY and Alfred BARCHARD who married in Auckland in 1851*.
The tree has only limited details of Eliza LINDSAY's parents, but they are given as "Samuel LINDSAY (b. Ireland - d. Auckland ) and Honora O'CONNOR (b. Limerick, ... and oddly ? died at Limerick ? )".
* Not sure whether you are a member of the NZ Society of Genealogists ? ... they have details [in their NZSG Collection] of the 1851 Eliza LINDSAY / Alfred BARCHARD, marriage.
[Unfortunately, NZ BDM records prior to 1876 for deaths and 1881 for marriages, carry very little helpful info, and of course are rather expensive, so it's worth trying to find if others who have information from these sources, might be prepared to share it. ] ;)
continues next >
~ Lu
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Hi ... our posts just crossed. :)
That's okay ... I'll continue to post the information I've gathered, (that way others may also be able to contribute further).
Enjoy your trip - (aah Singapore ... I breezed thru there last year ... nice airport. :D )
Safe travels.
~ Lu
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Deaths
1911 - BARCHARD - Eliza - 74 yrs [bc 1837 ]
Eliza BARCHARD lived at Cook Street, Auckland and died there on 20 January 1911. Brief death notice published in "Auckland Star" - 20 January 1911, which "promised" - funeral details later - (can't find them in that newspaper though. ? ) Eliza was buried at Waikaraka Cemetery.
Just in case you're interested, the obituary for Alfred BARCHARD appears in "Auckland Star" 5 September 1896 - Untitled - page 5.
The BARCHARD family also seem to have lived for a time in the Chancery Street area according to a report about a fire there in 1866.
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The 58th (Rutlanders) are said to have started arriving in NZ in April 1845 - prior to which they were in New South Wales.
The following birth appears in NSW records.
[It is possibly a church record (baptism perhaps ?) and the level of info it contains is unknown. I'd imagine if the mother's maiden name was recorded, then it would show on the index listing ? May be wrong though on that score ? ]
Birth
LINDSAY - Samuel
Year - 1844
Father: Samuel Mother: Annorah ["Hanora" ? ]
Registered at Parramatta, NSW, AUS
Reg. # V 18441233 28
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Above may be Samuel LINDSAY d. 1848 - NZ ?
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Just my thoughts on the death "5 June 1852 at Auckland - Samuel LINDSAY - aged 39 years".
Born about 1813, and close in age to Honora LINDSAY.
I do have a hunch that this is the Samuel you are seeking.
As "a Samuel LINDSAY" does not appear in the records of those soldiers who took their discharge in NZ, it seems probable that he was deceased by 1858 when the 58th Regiment departed NZ.
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Hopefully there may be some helpful info in the record held at Archives NZ ?
~ Lu
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Thank you for that insight. I was trying to work out if there were a possible connection between the wife of Samuel Lindsay being named as Ann Lindsay. Ann is also a name that appears in Samuels grandchildren generation. But then as you suggested. Honora - Hanora - Annorah - Ann.
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BMD on Samuel Lindsay death
When died: 5 June 1852
Name: Samuel Lindsay
Sex: Male
Age 39
Rank. Private. Soldier 58th Regiment
Cause of Death. Inflammation of the bowels.
Signature of informant: Edward Swords. Lance Corporal 58th Regiment Auckland
When registered. 7th June 1852
I suspect this is the husband of Honora Lindsay who died in 1890s and speaks of her husband in the 58th Regiment.
Were there two Samuel Lindsays both married to a different Honora Lindsay's
The possible differences: Honora's maiden name Carroll versus Connor
Samuels occupation - one listed as private 58th. The other reference is a shoemaker
Perhaps the death certificate for a Samuel Linsay 1860 may shed more light.
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On the link you gave in your initial posting - "Early Auckland Deaths" at the ouraucklandstuff website, there used to also be available, an "Early Auckland Births" listing. Sadly the link seems no longer to be working. But it is an excellent resource which contains early births (I think covering the wider Auckland region? ) - many of which were extracted from church records and don't necessarily appear on NZ BDM's site.
Are you in proximity to Auckland Library ? If so, they have it in their catalogue as "Births Pertaining to Early Auckland : Shirley
Link for records mentioned above
http://ouraucklandstuff.freeservers.com/KendallKL.htm
No Lindsay births in that database
Bye
Althea
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Perhaps the death certificate for a Samuel Linsay 1860 may shed more light.
Hi again
Very probably the Samuel LINSAY 1860 death (@ NZ BDM - online) relates to the following ?
Burial Records for Symonds Street Cemetery, Auckand
The Anglican St. Paul's Register has Samuel LINDSAY, a carpenter aged 15 years, of Chancery Street, who died 10 March 1860, buried 11 March 1860.
[This Samuel LINDSAY - born about 1845 - may well be the child Samuel, s/o Samuel and "Annorah" LINDSAY whose birth was registered as Parramatta, NSW, Australia in 1844 ? ]
~ Lu
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Hi I have just found this chat and maybe able to add and or clarify a few this that have been discussed.
I am the great great great great grand daughter of Samuel and Honora Lindsay (nee O'Connor). Their daughter Eliza married Alfred Barchard.
In my search for more info on the Lindsays I have discovered that there is the possibility of more than one Samuel and Honora Lindsay here in Auckland. Looking back to Ireland there seem to be alot of Samuel and Honora Lindsays at the same time across Ireland - it appears to be like looking for John Smith. Spelling of names also seems to be an issue - wether due miss spellings or to people missreading writing and putting wrong spellings in digital form or as I have found people assuming someones name being other due to their nickname as in the case of a family member of mine who was named Alfred but was known as Fred and in some cases they called him Fredrick.
Anyway Samuel and Honora (nee O'Connor) Lindsay were married in Limerick Ireland approx 1827 when she was 16. They came to NZ in 1841/42 with 4 or 5 children and went on to have another 3 or 4 children once here. This is information that Eliza Barchard (nee Lindsay) gave on the early settlers roll in the late 1800s. So by the time Honora died in 1893 5 of her 8 children were deceased as was Samuel. Honora was living with her daughter Eliza Barchard, my great great great grandmother at the time of her death. I have no idea the names of any of the other 7 Lindsay children but undoubtedly there would have been a Samuel.
I haven't found a record of Samuel once they got here and have been searching online and so far have found nothing other than the mention of Honora's quest for the services rendered claim. It appears that many of these claims were rejected and people continued to fight for these claims for years if they were denied as they could amount to quite a sum of money if granted. I do not know if this is Honora Lindsay nee O'connor or nee Carroll.
As for the tree found on ancestry website this is for my family the Barchards. Matilda Barchard is one of Alfred and Eliza's 6 children - whoever wrote that Honora Lindsay died in Limerick is incorrect, she did die here in NZ. The record for Eliza Lindsay and Alfred Barchard's marriage held at BDM is a signed permission for Eliza to marry Alfred as she was only 16 when they wed. There are no helpful details on this paper. The Barchard family lived down by the wharf as Alfred owned the Wharf hotel,QueenSt, from 1853ish till 1864ish then he ran a couple of "hotels" in Queen st before being bankrupted in 1867. The family then moved to Tapu Creek (Thames area) to start a new life before returning to Auckland in the late 1870s early 1880s. I don't know if Honora Lindsay was living with them while they were away or if she moved in with them when they returned. And this is where she was with them in Cook St when she died.
I am in contact with the decendants of Matilda Barchard in Oz and they also found the birth of Samuel Lindsay to Annorah and Samuel - we are unsure if this is anything to do with Honora Lindsay nee O'Connor or not.
I am hoping to finally get to the library to do some more research as I seem to have exhuasted all I can find on the net. If I find anything worthwhile I will let you know.
I hope some of this helps. I look forward to seeing future posts and wether we are decendants of the same Samuel and Honora.
Cheers Shelley
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Hello,
I have just discovered this post and hopefully it may reach its owner.
I have thoroughly read through the posts relating to the Lindsay family in New Zealand and at the end was wondering if there was a final conclusion about Samuel Linsday and Honora, whether her maiden name was Carroll or O'Connor.
I am researching the Lindsay family on behalf of my husband. His grandfather was William Ernest Lindsay (son of Alfred Lindsay and Martha Burke) born 1888 Otago New Zealand and died 1953 in Fitzroy, Melbourne.
William Ernest Lindsay married Sarah Hutton in New South Wales in 1935. They then adopted Shirley June Lindsay, who is my husband's mother.
I am now back researching the Lindsay family as I left them alone and moved over to some other branches. Through 'googling' (as you do), I came across the post. So I am just wondering which direction I should head with Samuel Lindsay and his wife Honora (Carroll or O'Connor).
Regards to all,
Suzanne
So, I am not sure which direction I should be heading and hoping for some clarification