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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: jess5athome on Monday 15 October 12 11:46 BST (UK)
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Hi, I have been researching my family tree for a while with some degree of success, mainly i have to say with the help and kindness of the roots community who i cannot speak highly enough of.
My question is where or when do you know that you have reached the end of the line, or the beginning of any possible research.
One side of my tree research is the Denby family of the Snaith / Goole area of Yorkshire, I have got back as far as possibly my 12 x Great Grandfather in 1560 in Snaith, would this be classed as the end or beginning of the line or is there some other form of research to go even further back?
I have got that far with the help of Snaith parish church records.
Best regards always,
jess5athome
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I think you only know you have not reached the end when you find after x years another piece of information!
I have currently reached the end, for a number of branches, that I have time to research beyond 1750 ish. If I did not have to work, I would be down the record office, going through every document they had and even then I would not know if I had reached the end of the lineage.
Cheers,
Spark
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The answer is that it depends on how much money THEY had. Money provides records - inheritance, wills, property, squabbles and all records money/land need. The government is always interested in their money too. All the money a researcher has is not going to normally trace a working person back before church records. UNLESS the person does something dramatic and sails on the Mayflower!
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Hi, I suppose that sort of person is what is known as a "Gateway", one of the descendants was buried in Snaith churchyard in 1789 along with his wife and his sister, they have a large headstone so were probably quite wealthy as I don`t think headstones were cheap.
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I think you only know you have not reached the end when you find after x years another piece of information!
I agree with SPARK; and must admit - you are never truly finished! ;D
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It's like painting. A picture is never finished, it just stops in an interesting place.
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We've had a few successes with late 1700s brickwalls of 10 years plus tumbling over the past 12 months, many of which we didn't think we'd ever knock down. ;D As records become more easily accessible and our skills at "thinking outside the box" have improved, we've been lucky to find the information needed to trace these ancestors. As has already been said, I don't think research ever really finishes it's just subject to time, money and inclination to spend time looking at the minutest possibility. As for Gateway ancestors, well having found one after demolishing a brickwall about 3 years ago, you never really know what you are going to find. And yes we've got our fair share of ag labs going back to the 1500s and 1600s too. ;)
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It's endless, really. Realistically most people won't get back much further than the 17th century as record survival is so poor, and as mentioned many people will have left little or no trace. But there is so much scope for following collateral branches and for investigating the families of spouses.
I have a vicar of Perlethorpe, Notts, in the farther branches of my tree: would that he'd lived a few hundred years earlier as Perlethorpe has the one of the very oldest parish registers in England, established in 1528, ten years before the general instruction from Thomas Cromwell that parish registers should be kept.
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Hi all, so reading what everyone has to say I can consider myself fortunate to get back to 1560.
Oh well, onwards and upwards,I will see what can be found regarding his children.
Best regards always, jess5athome. :D :D :D
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It really depends how far back you wish to go and who your ancestors were.
I have two lines go back to the 15th century (1450 & 1470). If however there is a link to royalty the lineage can go far further back.
However family history is not so much going back to Adam & Eve but researching the history of the family. In other words putting meat on the bones.
One could spend many years researching a couple of generations or there could be a dearth of modern records but a wealth of information from an ancestor in the 17th century.
Aristocracy, Landowners and convicts often have a wealth of records generated for them.
Cheers
Guy
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When the records are not forthcoming
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Hi, I think I have found that point with one ancestor of mine,
I have a Trystram Denby b-Snaith yorkshire 1583
d-Cowick Yorkshire 1643
His baptism is shown as 17th October 1583 in the Snaith parish registers.
His father is shown also as Trystram Denby who was:-
b- Snaith 1560
d- poss 1603
Married Snaith 1582.
Alas it seems to end there and I have to admit it is heart wrenching. :( :( :(
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The answer is that it depends on how much money THEY had. Money provides records - inheritance, wills, property, squabbles and all records money/land need. The government is always interested in their money too. All the money a researcher has is not going to normally trace a working person back before church records. UNLESS the person does something dramatic and sails on the Mayflower!
Criminals feature too, my father's likely (I say likely through illegitimacy in the late 18th century)maternal line has been traced back to around 1300, family were nothing grand, just tenant farmers who rented the same farm for around 450 years, and the manorial records happen to have survived) A matter of luck, but why didn't my likely 3XGGM claim off the parish? If she had I would have a 23 generation tree!
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I have one ancestor who has gateway ancestors so it's very easy to research that line back to 1100s, however her partner (she didn't marry him so no father's name to follow) is a different story. I can't even find his birth, so I'm completely stuck with him. I know he was around in 1884 and is on 1891, 1901 and 1911 census, I know he died in 1935, but what I don't know are his beginnings and, therefore, any of his ancestors.
Lizzie
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The surname Luffman appears in the Domesday book as Leofman, a thane of Wessex who in 1065 was deprived of Hayling Island by Earl (later King) Harold for some unknown misdemeanour, I think he probably supported the Scandanavian invasion by the dates. It also goes further back into the Saxon Kingdom, a Leofman is recorded as a moneyer of King Ethelred in 1016. If it could be connected that would be wonderful as it is I'm still stuck in 1776 with that line.
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I have one ancestor who has gateway ancestors so it's very easy to research that line back to 1100s, however her partner (she didn't marry him so no father's name to follow) is a different story. I can't even find his birth, so I'm completely stuck with him. I know he was around in 1884 and is on 1891, 1901 and 1911 census, I know he died in 1935, but what I don't know are his beginnings and, therefore, any of his ancestors.
Lizzie
We had a similar issue until literally the last couple of weeks. An ancestor was listed as born in Everdon, Northants on the 1851 census, he died in 1857. It's not that common a name in Northants, but it is in Leicestershire. Also causing problems was the fact he was listed "of" a Leicestershire parish on his marriage in 1815. It had stumped us literally for about 12 years. The microfiche of the PRs for his "birth" parish are not very good, hardly readable in the late 1700s/early 1800s. We knew of an illegitimate child with the same first name born the right time in the parish, whose mother was the name of ancestor's first child, but nothing else. That is until I purchased a copy of Alan Clarke's Baptism Index to find that a woman of the same name had had three children baptised in 1803 with the reputed father having the same surname my ancestor used as an adult. The entry on the microfiche is almost unreadable unless you know what it says. They must have indexed it from the original PRs, we had no reason to check them as there were no others of the same name in the parish ... or so we thought. To add to that two of the later illegitimate children appeared to have taken their father's surname and the "sister" married in the same parish that my ancestor was living in, and his second eldest daughter is visiting her and her husband on the 1871 census. While not exactly conclusive proof, we can't find the illegitimate children anywhere else and it seems much to big a coincidence. Ironically the sister married her cousin, her reputed father's nephew ;) It didn't also help that the parish clerk had missed an "r" out of the surname of the reputed father on three entries in the parish records, albeit that the marriage entry (he married his "partner's" Aunt but she had died by the time the three later children appeared) is listed incorrectly but the groom signed it with the correct spelling. Whether he was my ancestor's father, probably doubtful but you never know and perhaps the Parish Clerk was being tactful to list him as that while the wife was still alive. ;) He did make the usual comment about my ancestor's legitimacy mind you.
So you never know what is going to turn up. A major brickwall can be felled at any time. ;D
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YEs there are some records that you can access befoeven re PRs
Manorial records, wills , etc
These will usually not be enough than to go one extra generation back even if you are lucky.
The exception is if you are connected to a line of nobiliity.
Let's face it, sometimes there are gaps and errors in PRs and there is just no trace at a much later date
If the name is uncommon you can sometimes search for the earliest occurrence in a particular area
BoB
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The manorial records on the a2a website http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/
are not complete but often give clues. There are seven results when searching for "Denby" up to the year 1700 in the Lincolnshire archives on this page:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/results.aspx?tab=2&Page=1&ContainAllWords=Denby&DateFrom=01%2f01%2f1000&DateTo=01%2f01%2f1700&Repository=Lincolnshire+Archives
Where families of status/land are concerned their names also crop up in other country records depending on where descendants migrate to
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Hi, thankyou so much Rena, I will take a look at those.
Best regards jess :) :) :)
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Always worth joining your local FHS (or the one for the area you're interested in); always worth a nose around your Local Studies Library and/or County Record Office, and a chat to the staff; always worth a look at Genuki to see what records it points to. You never know.
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Your limitations are only those of your mind!
20 (yes really 20) years ago from memory - I had a number of brick walls - all of my walls related to people who were born mainly before 1837.
Today (little drum role - I have finally cracked the last biggy)!
However, I have cracked all of my brick walls in effect by doing very simple things.
1. Do not assume -
As an example, my Dad always referred to his grandmother as Elizabeth and even though I had had sight of the grave which said Eliza - I believed him. Actually, I could not find here records until I searched for Eliza.
2. Do you have 3 pieces of evidence to confirm a person's identity?
With Eliza as an example:-
I knew where and when she was buried (burial and death cert)
and I knew who she had married (marriage cert)
This alone proved who she actually was.
By choosing to ignore this I had created my own brick wall.
3. Top tip if you are going before 1837 and/or beyond the UK - consider excepting 2 pieces of evidence and/or steps sideways to break your wall.
Let me introduce to Darthula (the wall I finally broke today after 20 years today).
So what did I know 20 years ago from a census I knew she was born St John's Newfoundland c 1813.
If you are researching people before 1837 and need to back to 1770'ish use the Newspaper archives to assist you.
By finding six lines below in an 1834 newspaper (which I had actually ignored for 5 years), it finally allowed me to trace her ancestors: -
"August 28, at St. Augustine's Church, Bristol, by the Rev. W. Millner, Charles Bullen, youngest son of James Davis, Esq., of Weymouth, to Darthula Eliza, youngest daughter of the late Elias Rowe, esq., of St. John's, Newfoundland, and niece to he late Mrs Danson, of park Street, Bristol."
By taking a step backward - and searching for who was Elizabeth Danson - I discovered that she was one of the two sister's of to Elias. Children of Elias and Eliza Rowe.
My 20 year wall now(in simple terms) now broken!
And finally - do not forget the potential power of the internet and websites such as Rootschat. I have over 20 years made numerous contacts with distant relatives and shared thoughts and information about our ancestors (and also agreed to disagree).
Goodluck
Billy
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Hi, I have been researching my family tree for a while with some degree of success, mainly i have to say with the help and kindness of the roots community who i cannot speak highly enough of.
My question is where or when do you know that you have reached the end of the line, or the beginning of any possible research.
When your pulse stops! ;D
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Often there will be the evidence hiiden away in some record office, in a document that will probably never make it online and a document that is outside the usual parish registers etc. A property document or something, or a personal family doc deposited with local RO's.
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Dont forget there are archived records that havent been opened in centuries that may have that snippet of info
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I'd be happy just to find my Maternal great-grandfather(s)
One, nothing before his 1892 Marriage in Cornwall/Devon claiming to be from London/Middlesex in 1901 & 1911!
The other has a 1865 Wolverhampton birth certificate with no father, then nowt else before the 1891 London census.
Tried school records, vaccinations , everything I can think of over the last 10-15 years.
At this point, I'm not holding my breath.
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I still live in hope to one day find the maiden name of Sarah Coombs. I shall keep trying. Her first hubby was from Dorset. She died just a few weeks before the 1851 census. I found an 1810 marriage in Axminster but the bride was not a spinster, she was a widow, so if the marriage is right, she'd have to be a very young widow as she was born c1790. I shall never give up on this.
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Dont forget there are archived records that havent been opened in centuries that may have that snippet of info
I live in hope, David. ::)
In answer to the original question, how long's a piece of string? You can research as much as you want, but really you could research forever. As has been said, new records made available, tracing descendants of all of your ancestors' siblings....
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I still live in hope to one day find the maiden name of Sarah Coombs. I shall keep trying. Her first hubby was from Dorset. She died just a few weeks before the 1851 census. I found an 1810 marriage in Axminster but the bride was not a spinster, she was a widow, so if the marriage is right, she'd have to be a very young widow as she was born c1790. I shall never give up on this.
Don't discount a young widow. With the help of a good friend, I cracked a brickwall similar to yours. My widowed ancestor remarried at age 33 to my ancestor. Found the first marriage, but still looking for the first husband's burial. Can't expect it too easy I suppose.
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I don't know if these have been mentioned previously but, after you have looked at all the parish records and wills, these are the records I would check for the 16th century:
Manorial court records
Lay subsidies (1520s and 1540s)
Muster rolls (1520s to 1540s)
Common Pleas and Kings/Queens Bench
http://www.uh.edu/waalt/index.php/Main_Page
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40_Indices.html
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/KB27Indices/KB27Indices.html
Original legal records here:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/
Also
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/sources/olmed.shtml
https://www.british-history.ac.uk
Some of these, such as manor court records and lay subsidies, are not online and would require a trip to the county records office or the National Archives.
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And don't forget Star Chamber. A person with my surname was involved in sheep rustling in the 16th century. Must be a connection my great grandfather's brother was transported in 1832 for Highway robbery! Makes him an aristocrat in Australia!
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To answer the original question, a lot depends on what sort of people they were. For the middling sort of people - husbandman, yeoman, butcher, baker - the limit is probably about mid-15th century, using the records I mentioned above. If they were landowners - gentry, squires, knights - it might be possible to go back to about mid-13th century, using records having to do with with feudal landholding.
It's all a matter of luck, of course, whether records for any particular person for family might be found.
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I think that the point where the roots end are where you start to clutch at really thin straws, and weave them into a fragile structure that's likely to fall apart as soon as any strain is put onto it - several trees related to one of my families happily clatter back from a 1717 Lancashire marriage that was fact, "tracing" the line way back into the 1300s on what I'd say is almost no evidence at all.... they make things - people, dates, relationships "fit", often abandoning all commonsense or practical biology ( father aged 6, anyone? ) merely stringing together the "right" surnames in the same locality, to form a parody of a pedigree.
I'd love to accept these wonderful lines - but I can't, as there isn't any proof of who was the father of the groom in that marriage. Wer know he married, who he married, and when he died - and nothing further back. I've tried for years, and there are several likely chaps, but I suspect I'll never manage to prove anything, so....
The roots end here!
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It's all a matter of luck, of course, whether records for any particular person for family might be found.
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It is indeed. I have a massive wall in the late 18th century about my 2 great grandfather.
If I can prove who I think he wascl then I am straight back to around 1300AD when his ancestors took the tenancy of a farm in Dorset and kept it for the next 500 years. Luck indeed!!
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Similarly for me, Roger. My Pine/Pyne line can be confidently traced back to the mid 1500's in Ottery St Mary Devon. Oh but for the destruction of Devon wills in 1942 I might have been able to connect to the family of East Down and Upton Pyne, whose earliest ancestor was in the mid 1100's.
Too many John Pyne's around in the 1500's to be certain.