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Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: grosjean545 on Friday 02 November 12 09:29 GMT (UK)
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Hi everybody,
I'm looking for some information about these 2 ships :
1/ The british brig Harmony wrecked in 1826 near Knysna Head.
2/ The coastal brig Thomas lost in 1829, beween Table Bay and Algoa Bay.
Every information will be very appreciated, especially about captains of these ships. I just know his name (R. Butler), but I would like to know his first name (Richard? Robert?...).
Thank you in advance.
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Hi there
Sorry, I cannot find any reference giving Captain R. Butler's first name re the "Harmony".
In a book by Margaret Parkes & V. M. Williams called "Knysna the forgotten port":
"...on 13 March, 1826 the brig "Harmony" was wrecked in the channel on her way out of the port, and under his [ex-Royal Navy Lieutenant John Mackenzie Johnson's] pilotage. The vessel was taken aback in the narrows in a north-westerly wind near the outer bar. The pilot boat being insufficiently manned to tow her over to safety, she was left to drift gradually, having failed to let go an anchor, until she struck well and truly on the western rocks, and become a total wreck". [and further on it says] "But the Master of the "Harmony", which was unfortunately not insured, wrote from Cape Town to John Rex somewhat bitterly, that he felt that the Government had regarded the disaster in a "very slight manner" ....".
This makes me wonder if the reference re "R. Butler submitting a certain account of his" for 1827 on the NAAIRS site is not perhaps your man - it might give the full name in his signature?
See www.national.archsrch.gov.za - click on RSA - key in Butler with the date 1827. Unfortunately I am not in Cape Town so cannot look it up for you.
I started tracing the voyages of the "Thomas" in 1829 but ran out of time - do you know in which month it was lost?
Regards
Sandy
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Thank you for your answer!
All I know about the Thomas was in Lloyd's List Marine News:
"21 / 07 / 1829 : Coasting Brig. Missing since 24 march 1829, supposed foundered."
Thank you for your help. :D
Unfortunately, I can't go to Cape Town for now to check this document (I'm from France!).
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Thanks for the date - I will look for info on the "Thomas" for you on Thursday.
Regards
Sandy
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Thank you very much! :D
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I have had no luck finding out R. Butler's first name. I traced his voyages for 1829:
He sailed from Table Bay on the 23 December 1828 for Algoa Bay [Port Elizabeth]
Arrived Table Bay [Cape Town] on 2 February 1829.
Sailed from Table Bay 22 February for Algoa Bay
Arrived at Port Elizabeth March 3 [says J. Butler but this must be a printing error]
then the last entry for him:
Sailed from Port Elizabeth, March 25, "Thomas", R. Butler, for Table Bay.
I carried on looking but there were no more references, not even a missing/lost at sea one.
Regards
Sandy
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Thank you very much! :)
It seems to be difficult to find the name of this captain! :-\
If he died at sea in 1829, where could I find some information or death notice?
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I cannot find a death notice for him on the NAAIRS site. You need then to trace what happened to his wife - so I keyed in Marcella & Butler and there is a will filed in 1868 for Marcella wife of John Butler. John Butler??????
Do you know anything of her life after 1829 - did she remain in SA? Could this be her? Unfortunately I do not live in Cape Town so do not have access to the Archives.
Sandy
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Unfortunately, this Marcella Butler (wife of John Butler) is not the good one, my Marcella had a new husband later and left South Africa for India et died there. :(
Nevertheless, I thank you very much for your help.
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While looking on the occupations section of this site I came across the link for mariners as http://www.nmm.ac.uk
Perhaps they can help!
Nookie
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While looking on the occupations section of this site I came across the link for mariners as http://www.nmm.ac.uk
Perhaps they can help!
Nookie
Thank you for this link. :)
I've found some information about ancestors on NMM but not for these two ships. :-\
On Ancestry24, I've found that Thomas' captain could be 'Robert' Butler (but I'm looking for a 'Richard' Butler), but I can't really verify by myself and I would like to.
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The Cape Town Gazette & African Advertiser, Friday July 8th, 1825:
Arrivals in Table Bay:
6th July "Harmony", English Brig, Richard Butler, Master, from the Downs 6th April, cargo Sundries from London for the Cape. [Lists passengers]
also:
For Freight or Charter, to St Helena, Rio de Janeiro, or the Mauritius, the Brig "Harmony", R. Butler, Master, (A. 1.) newly coppered; burthen about 200 Tons; has superior Accommodations for Passengers. - For further particulars apply to J. W. Stuckeris, Keerom-street.
The Cape Town Gazette & African Advertiser, Friday July 29th, 1825:
Sailed out of Table Bay:
26th July "Harmony", English Brig, Richard Butler, Master, bound to Simon's Bay in Ballast, in order to heave down the Ship "Mountaineer" in that Port.
He then returned to Table Bay. He left for St Helena & Rio de Janeiro on 14th September and returned on 26 December 1825. He departed Table Bay for Knysna on 6 January 1826, returning to Cape Town on 1 February. He left again for Knysna on 25 February and was then wrecked on the 13th March (though there is no reference to the shipwreck in this source).
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Thank you very much Sandy!!! :) :)
Now I know that the captain of this brig is really named 'Richard' and he could be mine!
Could you tell me what does '(A. 1)' mean?
Thank you very much!
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In English A1 would normally mean First Class in my humble opinion, A2 Second Class etc.
Regards Derek
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In English A1 would normally mean First Class in my humble opinion, A2 Second Class etc.
Regards Derek
Thank you Derek. :)
Sincerely.
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According to Malcolm Turner's Shipwrecks and Salvage in South Africa, the Harmony wreck was reported in the South African Commercial Advertiser, 22, 29 March 1826. Perhaps there's a chance the captain's first name was mentioned in the reports. You would need help from someone, not necessarily at the Cape, SA, with access to copies of the newspaper: The National Archives Kew holds originals up to mid 1850s; microfiche copies available at Colindale.
Mole
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Thank you very much for your answer,
Could I ask you 2 questions:
First : Have you got this book "Malcolm Turner's Shipwrecks and Salvage in South Africa" and could you tell me what it said about the Harmony? Is there any description about her loss?
Then, where could I find online issue for South African Commercial Advertiser?
Thank you in advance.
Sincerely.
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Yes I do have Turner's book but probably nothing said about the Harmony is 'new' to you:
<Harmony: British snow of 168 t, built 1817, commanded by Capt R Butler [no first name given]. Wrecked 13 March 1826 while leaving the Knysna Heads. No lives were lost.
Sources: Lloyds Register of Shipping, 1826; South African Commercial Advertiser, 22, 29 March 1826.>
As far as I know, the SA Commercial Advertiser is not available online. You'd need a researcher to look at, for example, the microfilms at Colindale UK or the originals held at National Archives Kew UK, or, in South Africa at the SA Library, Cape Town. Since the precise dates of the reports are given in Turner's sources, it should be possible for such a search to be done and not too time-consuming/expensive.
Incidentally there is no information in Turner on the Thomas - the other ship you're looking for.
Mole
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grosjean545, have you looked at this ship list :-
http://www.sashipwrecks.com/WebT.htm
Regards
Malky
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grosjean - I should clarify my statement re the SA Commercial Advertiser not being available online - EXTRACTS from this newspaper (transcribed by Sue Mackay) can be viewed at
http://www.eggsa.org/newspapers/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=1&Itemid=2 (http://www.eggsa.org/newspapers/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=1&Itemid=2)
However, on searching these I did not find the relevant reports on the Harmony.
Mole
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Thank you, Mole and Malky, for your answer! :)
Unfortunately, on this list http://www.sashipwrecks.com/WebT.htm, there's no reference about Harmony or Thomas.
Now, I try to find more information about the second ship, coasting brig Thomas. I have got only one reference for her captain (Cape Almanach 1829 on Ancestry24 said Robert Butler), but sometimes, there are some mistakes on Almanach. So I would like to find another one.
I hope it could be a mistake, because I try to find what Richard Butler, captain of the Harmony, did after the loss of his ship.
Sincerely, :)
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You have to change the search letter in the search-bar to "H" from "T" to get the information about the Harmony.
http://www.sashipwrecks.com/WebH.htm
Regards
Malky
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That's a good link for SA wrecks, Malky - unfortunately no sign of the relevant Thomas wrecked 1829. The Harmony 1826 is certainly listed.
grosjean, you need a friendly researcher to see those SA Commercial Advertiser reports on the Harmony, at least. The Thomas may also have been reported in the same newspaper but more difficult to find if the ship simply went missing - and no precise date for a report about this.
No guarantees, of course, that Captain R Butler's first name will be mentioned.
Mole
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Thank you for your answer, :)
The 'Thomas' left Cape Town about march 24th (1829). First "apprehensions" about her safety about april 1829 and some references in Newspapers about june-july 1829. It's, for now, all I've found online.
I wil try to find someone who can look-up into South African Commercial Advertiser.
Regards.
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An article in to-day's Durban paper caught my eye and remembered you were interested in lost ships.
Vanessa Maitland is a Maritime archaeologist in the Durban area and has registered an internet domain where people can share their information. It looks as if it's not quite up and running yet but she is on Linkedin and Facebook. I know Durban is not your area of interest but perhaps she has some information which could help.
The internet site is www.shipwrecks-sa.com and I quote "It will be one big database. Access will be free. The information will be as good as you share."
Hope this will be of use
Gingerbit
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Thank you for this information. :)
I will try to contact her, and perhaps, she could help to find more about theses ships.
For now, I found no one to take a look into South African Advertiser about the first one (Harmony) and no more information about the second one (Thomas)... but I keep hope... :)
An article in to-day's Durban paper caught my eye and remembered you were interested in lost ships.
Vanessa Maitland is a Maritime archaeologist in the Durban area and has registered an internet domain where people can share their information. It looks as if it's not quite up and running yet but she is on Linkedin and Facebook. I know Durban is not your area of interest but perhaps she has some information which could help.
The internet site is www.shipwrecks-sa.com and I quote "It will be one big database. Access will be free. The information will be as good as you share."
Hope this will be of use
Gingerbit
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I don't know if you already have this reference:
The Cape of Good Hope Government Gazette
Friday September 9, 1831
Deaths in Cape Town
Sept 4: A son of the late Capt. Richard Butler, named Richard Francis, aged 3 years, and 21 days
Regards
Sandy
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It looks as if you have your Capt Butler's first name, now, grosjean - thanks to Sandy.
Has anyone yet managed to access the shipwreck site mentioned on this thread?
www.shipwrecks-sa.com (http://www.shipwrecks-sa.com) I'm having no joy and getting a 404 error message.
Regards
Mole
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It looks as if you have your Capt Butler's first name, now, grosjean - thanks to Sandy.
Thank you for this information, but, unfortunately, I already knew it. In fact, it was my "starting point". It was for this reason that I'm looking for any information about captains named Richard Butler, because there is no more information in Birth/Death/Marriage records.
But, once again, thank you for the time you spend for me and my ancestors! :)
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I was under the impression that there had been some doubt, at first, as to whether he was Richard or Robert.
cheers
Mole
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Hi everyboby,
Once again, I need your help to trace the brig Thomas from 1813 to her loss in 1829. I found on NASA website that Thomas was used since 1813-1814 to ship sundries between Cape Town and Mauritius.
I need your help to know if we can find some reference to her travels in departures/arrivals. All I could find online are travels for 1827 to 1829. If you could help me for the first years, it could be helpful.
I would like to know when we can find the first reference to a captain named "Butler" fot this ship, and who were the other captains before him.
Thank you in advance.
I always need to be sure that the first name for this "R Butler", captain of Brig Thomas is really Robert. I think it could be a mistake, because I also found T. Butler for the same person. I hope it could be Richard to connect him with tha captain of the "Harmony".
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Hi, problem is finding an early enough source in the shape of a Cape newspaper. Check online for their starting dates. The first independent newspaper, the South African Commercial Advertiser only began in 1824, for example, but it was suppressed in certain years: see
http://www.eggsa.org/newspapers/index.php/south-african-commercial-advertiser (http://www.eggsa.org/newspapers/index.php/south-african-commercial-advertiser)
Cape Government Gazette a bit earlier ca 1820/21.
Mole
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Thank you, Mole, for your answer.
I didn't think about this, for earliest newspapers. But, perhaps, we can find something about this ship in the departure/arrivals inside Almanac and Directory, for this period.
I will see on googlebook.
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According to the "African Court Calendars" that I have access to (some missing), the "Thomas" was in Port with these as captains:
1813: A Landele (Mauritius to London) & C. Allen (Mauritius to Cape)
1817: William Scott (Mauritius to Cape) & G. Jackson (Downs to Cape)
1819: W. Scott (Rio de Janeiro to Cape) - arrived 20th February 1819
[There is also a listing for a "Thomas", Robert Cornfoot, which arrived on 10 January 1819 from Portsmouth & St Jago to the Cape which departed again on 30 March, and it appears again in 1822, with Richard Winspear as Captain, from Portsmouth & St Jago to the Cape].
The Harmony was wrecked on 13 March 1826 so I checked when Butler would have become Master of the Thomas and found these:
"Cape Town Gazette & African Advertiser", Friday, March 17th, 1826:
Arrived Table Bay 17th March, Thomas, English Schooner, J. Finnis, Master, from St Helena 7th Feb
"Cape Town Gazette & African Advertiser", Friday, 5 May 1826:
Departed Table Bay 2nd May, Thomas, English Schooner, R. Butler, Master, for the Mauritius.
Hope this helps
Sandy
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Oh, yes, it was very helpful! I could now trace more easily travels for these 2 ships. Thank you very much, Sandy (and everyone who help me).
I'm now almost sure that it could be the same captain for these two ships, because dates are similars and I've got this "R" for forename initial.
I know (because I found this in a book : "Knysna, the forgotten port", Margaret Parkes & V.M. Williams) that captain Butler from the Harmony have written a letter to John Rex after her loss, in 1826. I would like to know where I could find this letter and perhaps all the report of this loss. If I could find this letter, I could compare the writting from my ancestor and this captain.
Perhaps, I could do he same with captain Butler from Thomas, because He wrote a letter for payment in 1827 that could be found in NASA.
I have some questions too about Captains :
- Who is the owner of this kind of ship (coasting brig)? Captain or other people?
- What he has to do when her ship was lost?
- Could he find some job easily? In Cape Town?
Thank you, once again, for all of you!
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Hi there
I went to my local library to-day (greater Durban area) for your "Knysna lost port" book but the only copy is in the main Durban library and it is never lent out. Perhaps some one will read this and be able to get there before me - only in a few weeks time -
regards
Gingerbit
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I think the letter referred to in the Knysna book may be the one on the NAAIRS site - key in www.national.archsrch.gov.za - click on RSA - key in Butler with date 1827 - R. Butler submitting a certain account of his - this would be in the Cape Town Archives.
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Hi,
I am a direct descendant of John McKenzie Johnson and would like to clarify the story of the Harmony as per my own research at the Knysna Museum with the kind hjelp of the most well informed curator although I am sorry to say that I do not remember her name.
He was Port Master under the employ of the Royal Navy and indeed the Port was his responsibility and there was an investigation after the fact in which not only did they find that he had forewarned of insufficient manning and equipment and that he had insisted that they provide a budget for the necessary improvements urgently, they also gave him a commendation for the heroic rescue of every soul aboard the Harmony with only a row boat and a coxwain.
I see that you made reference to Mr. Rex and this is nice confirmation of what we infered: among the passengers was none other than George Rex, the founder of Knysna's commercial forestry and a most notable figure in the history of the famous little town. So in fact John McKenzie was a hero who went on to have a distinguished career.
I believe that the ship herself still lies on the sand in the center of the beguiling tranquility of the Knysna heads (there is definitely a wreck there but I am not 100 percent sure it is the Harmony). Having lived there for many years I can say with absolute certainty that it is well worth the trip to see for yourself.
Keep Well
Carl Johnson
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Hi Carl,
Thank you for your post. Have you got more information about the Harmony? Her loss? Her captain? Everything about this wreck could be helpful for me, because my ancestor was her captain, but for now, he is very unknown. I always look for his birthplace and the year he was born, but it's very difficult (I'm living in France, so far away from Knysna, Cape and South African coasts!)
Regards.
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Hello Carl Johnson. I am also a direct descendant of John McKenzie Johnson. I have a good deal of info our John. He was harbour master at the time of the Harmony wreck. He wrote 2 letters to the paper and kept diaries of his time in Knysna. I accessed most of my info from the CP Nel museum in George who had a whole box of family history on the Johnsons and the Howells. I now live in Sydney and am battling various websites to get info as I would like to put to bed a lot of family myths re John. He sold property to George Rex when he left George on 3rd October 1829. He acted as Clerk to George Rex - 23rd November 1832.
John was clerk to the Magistrate at George in 1830. So glad I found you.
Rosemary Perry, father- Young, maternal g-mother - Johnson