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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Bedfordshire Lookup Requests => Bedfordshire => England => Bedfordshire Completed Look ups => Topic started by: aitch on Wednesday 14 November 12 09:16 GMT (UK)
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An elderly gentleman (83) has asked me if I can find anything out about his ancestors. The only thing we know is that his father was Herbert James TEMPLE SMITH, born 1908 in the Bedford district. I've not come across too many double barreled surnames pre 20thc so don't know if it was once just TEMPLESMITH or not? I don't have access to records, and Beds is a long way off my own ancestral patch of Staffordshire, but wondered if anyone fancied a challenge/had time/inclination to have a root around for any signs of Herbert or his forebears. You might make an old chap very happy!! :)
Thanks in anticipation!!
Aitch
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Hi Aitch
For our reference : Herbert James Temple-Smith
Birth registered Mar Qtr 1908, Bedford
from: http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
and Death registered Apr 1984 Cambridge, age 76, dob: 12 Feb 1908
I'm seeing other records for Herbert G Temple-Smith and a number of female Temple-Smiths (ie, possibly their married name). Do you know the name of your friend's mother? Has he mentioned named of any Aunts or Uncles?
Cheers
AMBLY
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His birth is registered under 2 names
Herbert James Smith
Herbert James Temple -Smith
Tazzie
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Hi Ambly
Thanks for your reply. I'm afraid he told me very little - I know his mother was Alice BURTON - born 1907 Alton, Staffs (and I know her heritage as she's a side branch of my own), but that's all I have to go on I'm afraid. His father must have had a reason to end up in Staffordshire but don't know what took him there.
He told me his father was Herbert and he reckoned born in 1908, so I'd picked up the freeBMD one that you ref. as it seemed the only one around.
Might not be enough to go on - I guess it depends on how rare the surname turns out to be - what do you think?? Friends first name is Kenneth if that's any help.
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Thanks Tazi - interesting as this begs the question as to where the 'Temple' bit fits in (and also throws us into the mind-boggling world of the Smiths!! - Yikes!!)
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I think this is Herbert's mother and older siblings (well, the Herbert who was born 1908 Beds, anyway :) :
1901: 48 Pilcroft Street, Bedford St Mary,
RG13 / Piece: 1492 / Folio: 29 / Pg 0
Wife: Bessie T SMITH 28, married, Dress Maker, (own Account at home),b Thomaston, USA
Son: Vernon SMITH 10, b Bedford
Son: Vivian SMITH 3, b Wootton, Beds
Dau: Bessie SMITH 2, b New Fenlake, Beds
BIRTH: Vernon Cyril M SALISBURY, Dec Qtr 1890 Bedford
BIRTH: Bessie Audrey TEMPLE-SMITH, Sep Qtr 1898, Bedford
MARRIAGE: Dec Qtr 1895, Ampthill - on the same page.
Bessie Sophia SALISBURY
Alfred Temple SMITH
Then back to 1891:
19 Bakermans Place, Bedford St Mary, Bedfordhshire
RG12 / Piece: 1248 / Folio: 71 / Pg 5
Head: Samuel SALISBURY 41, widower, House Decorator, b Cranfield, Bedfordshire
Dau: Bessie SALISBURY 20, single, b Thomaston, Maine, USA
Dau: Edith SALISBURY 14, b Bedford
Son: Edward SALISBURY 10, b Bedford
Dau: Eva SALISBURY 8, b Bedford
Grandson: Vernon Cyril Miller SALISBURY 5 mths, b (not recorded)
By using the FREELY available 1911 Index on Family Search and searching the individual names, the 1901 family appears to be in Wheathampstead, Hertfordshire 1911 (St Albans), as SMITH.
https://www.familysearch.org/
Bessie is down as born abt 1872 in Augusta, Maine - these days, Augusta Maine is just under an hour's drive from Thomaston Maine (Src: Google maps). There is an Alfred SMITH b abt 1872 Southampton, also in Wheathampstead.
You can also try find them here in 1911 , suggest you perform a search with the relatively uniquely named son, Vivian SMITH as the 'Other Person in Household" in Advanced search:
http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx?4
Cheers
AMBLY
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The marriage of the parents (Cheadle, Mar Qtr 1928) is also recordedin FreeBMD as:
Herbert J T SMITH & Alice BURTON
and
Herbert J TEMPLE-SMITH & Alice BURTON
Cheers
AMBLY
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Another Rootschatter was asking about the SALISBURY family, back in June 2011:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,537119.0.html
"Bessie Sophia Salisbury born in 1873 Thomaston, Maine, USA.
Her parents were called Samuel Sailsbury and Emma Dockham
She married in 1895 to Alfred Graham Smith (Who took on his christian name, and changed it to Temple-Smith).
She had 6 Children, 1 was already born, called Vernon Cyril Mellus Salisbury, born 1890 in Bedford, England, Britian. (Father is unknown)
then 5 others with Alfred called, Raymond Geoffrey Temple-Smith, Vivian Temple-Smith, Bessie Audrey Temple-Smith, Walter Temple-Smith, and Herbert James Temple-Smith"
I don't quite get what it means by " to Alfred Graham Smith (Who took on his christian name, and changed it to Temple-Smith)" though!
Also a topic on the SMITH side by same Roostchatter, here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,537122.0.html
Cheers
AMBLY
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So a look for Alfred Graham SMITH born abt 1872, Southampton:
BIRTH:
Alfred Graham SMITH, Mar Qtr 1873, Southampton
Think this is he:
CENSUS 1881: Bath Rd 1 Norman Villas, Heston, Middlesex
RG11 / Piece: 1339 / Folio: 113 / Page:16
Head: James I SMITH 36, Munic. Sanitery & Petroleum? Inspector, School Board Officer, Local Board, Heston & Islworth, b Middlesex, London
Wife: Esther E SMITH 28, b Southampton, Hants
Son: James E P SMITH 10, b Southampton
Son: Alfred G T SMITH 8, b Southampton
Dau: Esther E SMITH 5, b Oxford
Dau: Alice M SMITH 3, b Croydon
Son: Walter T SMITH 5mths, b Hounslow
MARRIAGE of the parents:
Mar Qtr 1870 Southampton: Same page (but she is indexed as Vol 2c, page -)
James Isaac SMITH
Esther Elizabeth GRIFFITH
BAPTISM of youngest son (per 1881 Census):
27 Jun 1880, Hounslow Holy Trinity, Middlesex
Walter Tapp SMITH, parents: James Isaac SMITH, Sanitary Inspector and Esther Elizabeth SMITH.
If we take James Isaac SMITH back, in his 1851 Census as a child, up pops a brother with Temple as middle name
1851: At 11 Southampton Street, Clerkenwell Middlesex
HO107 / Piece: 1518 / Folio: 222 / Page: 15
Head: Isaac SMITH 36, Coach Maker, b Oxford
Wife: Mary SMITH 22, b Bloomsbury St Giles
Son: James Isaac SMITH 5, b St Anns Westminster
Son: Alf'd Temple SMITH 4, b St Anns, Westminster
Dau: Mary Ann SMITH 2, b Clerkenwell
Dau; Sarah Eliz'th SMITH, 7 mths, b Clerkenwell
Plus a servant
Cheers
AMBLY
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Wow - thank you so much for all this information AMBLY! I'm going to hunker down for the afternoon and get my head round it all.
Thank you for all your super-sleuthing! I know Ken will be thrilled to have this information. Truly appreciate all your work on my behalf.
aitch :)
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Hi, I feel like I can be a help to you as I am related to this family. I branch of the relation of "Alfred Graham Smith" then branch off the "Raymond Geoffrey Smith" side of the family. Raymond Knew very little of his real father as his father walked out when he was a child. The mother Bessie then changed his last name to "Purcell" (illegally) and he thought that another man was his real father.
Later on in Raymond's life his half brother (a older brother that was born out of wedlock called Vernon Cyril Mellus Salisbury. which was Bessie's son) told Raymond and his other brothers about his real dad "Alfred Graham Smith". Vernon knew a lot about Alfred. He knew that Alfred was also given the name "Temple" as a middle name and he used that a lot. So in some documentation you might find Alfred Graham Temple-Smith, anyway, Vernon told Raymond and his other brothers and sisters of this. IT IS BELIEVED that Alfred went to Canada and started a new family over there but there is no evidence to prove this. I cannot find anything about him despite looking for help and other attempts in finding any record on him. He has vanished for now. Bessie was born in 1873 in Thomaston Main, United States.
Raymond then got married to a women called Dorris Emily Marriott who was born 7 Nov 1908 in Derbyshire, England and had children, Raymond died whilst at work on 14 Sept 1950 in Watford when he was constructing a Bridge. (he died alone as his family lived in Birmingham, West Midlands, England).
Out of respect of the man who brought him Raymond up, He kept his dads middle name Temple (used it himself and gave it his childrens name). He also gave the children his step fathers last name. So the children where born with the surname Temple-Purcell, If that makes sense? Some relatives are still living and I cannot give out that information obviously, but im sure a little digging you would be able to find that yourself. My advise is that you may not want to know them... But that's my own opinion. One of my granddad who was given the middle name Vernon out of respect of his half brother telling Raymond about his real father.
Raymonds death impacted when steal sheets that is used on construction sites, landed ontop of him. His family was in Birmingham, and his wife was alone, after a while, she had married a man in Daventry called Harry Wren who is now dead. She later died in Birmingham in 1985.
ps; Temple was given to a ancestor who was born in 1846, London, as a christen name, but was later used a a double barrelled name if they wanted it to be that. Later on down the line ancestor's just started putting in the word Temple as a family tradition. So there is either Temple-Smith, or just Smith, or Temple-Purcell or just Purcell. There is a lot of different possibility's for a surname but have managed to work it out over time. If you want any questions answered please ask and I will answer. Sorry if you don't understand this message properly.
Oh by the way, an ancestor on bessies side, which is herberts james smith's mother took part in the boston tea party in 1773. but I will explain more when you want to find out more :)
Kindest Regards
Andrew Purcell
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Many thanks for this info Andrew. I shall pass it on to my old Temple-Smith friend in the village.
- aitch
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I am working on the parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents of Alfred Temple Smith, and you may be interested to see what I have done so far: and to offer help if you like!