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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: littleliz02 on Wednesday 14 November 12 19:46 GMT (UK)
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Hi, my gr grandfather was called Alexander Williams and was born abt 1869. I think I have found him living in South Shields, Durham on the 1901 aged 42, it states here that he was born in Banff, Scotland. Unfortunately, I have tried Scotlands People etc and cant find a birth listed for him.
I know from his marriage certificate in 1913 he he married Catherine Rafferty in Tynemouth, Northumberland at the Registry Office, they had their son Alexander (my grandfather) in September 1914 in north Shields. His father was called John and he was a Mariner (deceased).
I really would like to know where Alexander (1869) was born and more about his history, but until I find a birth I am stumped! I think I have exhausted all avenues I know how to but I am sure someone could help me out with this as I am very frustrated.
Thank you
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Hi littleliz02
Could Alexander have been married before? From 1901 in South Shields:
Alexandre Williams 29, general labourer, b. Banff
Elizabeth Williams 24 b. South Shields
Alexandra Williams 1 b. South Shields
RG13/4729/125/30
Monica
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Hi Monica
Funnily enough I have previously looked at the entry you kindly sent, and thought the same myself.
On the 1901 Alexander is living in South Shields and born in Banff and living with Elizabeth
On the 1911 I think Alexander is boarding in South Shields his occ is engineering shop labourer born banff. This makes me think that the Alexander you sent me is the same one - as it's so much of a coincidence there being two Alexander Williams born the same year in Banff.
I thought maybe he didnt marry Elizabeth and she just took his name because I cant find a marriage for Alexander Williams and an Elizabeth in both Durham and Northumberland, according to the censues 1901 Elizabeth was born in South Shields.
I cant even find Elizabeth or Alexandra b1900 anywhere else on the census or deaths etc.
Alexander Williams 1869 is 44 when he marries my granmother and is a bachelor accoring to the marriage certificate - I did think that age 44 is old to be a bachelor. i just wish I could find out where Alexander was born and then could maybe search from there. I did initially have him from Glasgow but now realise I had the totally wrong family.
Seems to be a rabbit away somewhere I think!!!!!
My line of thought now is to find the birth entry for Alexander Williams born Banff in 1969.
I am so frustrated at this point.
Thank you for you help.
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Struggling to find the Banff connection so far :-\
Saw this birth entry from Aberdeenshire https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYTW-G7M and then possibly down in Durham by 1871 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VB88-6BD
I am open minded about Williams/Williamson/McWilliam.
However, the above family with father John, he doesn't show as a mariner then (1871) so not sure how to progress. If Alexander left Scotland very early in his life, some confusion may occur about his birth place....however, he stated Banff twice (1901 and 1911).
Monica
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I never thought about vairations of the name but this is definately something I will have to persue.
I have checked the birth entry you gave and managed to find them back in scotland until 1901, in which John's occupation is still Joiner - I dont think this is the one, but i did get very excited for a while there.
I think the next step is to explore all variation of the name Williams.
Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out.
Lisa
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Hi Lisa
It's maddening, frustrating and fun...all at the same time!
If we think that Alexander may have been married before due to that 1901 census entry, I was having another look around for the possible marriage to an Elizabeth and saw this entry:
Alexander Williamson and Elizabeth Harris or Florence Adamson - Sunderland Durham, 4th Qrt 1897, vol. 10a, pg 865.
One to keep on the boil until you find more info. Not sure how much more this will tell you about Alexander's early days if all it was to say was father and occupation as before, however, as always it simply helps with filling out someone's life. But, as I said, just a maybe for now...
Monica
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he stated Banff twice (1901 and 1911)
I wonder whether this is the burgh of Banff, or the parish of Banff, or the county of Banff?
If it's the county, and John, being a mariner, lived by the sea, you could be looking at Bellie, Enzie, Rathven, Seafield, Cullen, Deskford, Fordyce, Portsoy, Boyndie, Banff, Macduff or Gamrie, all of which are parishes or registration districts along the coast of Banffshire. Villages with different names include Portgordon, Buckpool, Buckie, Ianstown, Gordonsburgh, Portessie, Findochty, Portknockie, Whitehills, Inverboyndie, Gardenstown, Crovie, Pennan etc.
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I agree Monica, it is maddening, fun and exciting............. I just wish I had a crystal ball at times. I will definately explore the marriage you suggest - For some reason I think the surname may have been changed over time, so still lots to go on and many hours sitting in from of my computer.
Addictive!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you Forfarian I need to explore these town, Would I be miles out if I searched Aberdeenshire also?
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Would I be miles out if I searched Aberdeenshire also?
The historic county of Aberdeen has a long boundary with historic county of Banff, so no, you wouldn't be miles out.
However don't let yourself be confused by the modern boundaries, which place Fordyce, Boyndie, Banff and Gamrie, including Portsoy, Whitehills, Inverboyndie, Macduff, Gardenstown, Crovie and Pennan in what is now called Aberdeenshire, but isn't officially a county.
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Lisa, nice big colourful map of counties in Scotland www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/sct_cmap.html Just click on any county on the map for further info.
I also like these maps for parishes by county www.scotlandsfamily.com/parish-maps.htm
Monica
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back to the drawing board with Alexander Williams b 1869....
I have found a birth for an Alexander McWilliam 15/2/1869 and he is listed as an illegitimate child to helen McWilliam who was a Domestic Servant and lived with her parents Alexander McWilliam b1811 and Isabella b1829 in Keith, Banff in 1961 then lives with her grandmother in 1971
Could anyone advise me how I can find out what happened to Alexander mcWilliam b 15/2/1889 1869 as it seems he did not reside with his mother helen McWilliam.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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That looks promising!
The way these things normally go...would be to check whether mother Helen married after the birth of Alexander in 1869. Alexander may show under mother Helen's new married surname for 1871 (if she remarried).
Monica
Added: Tired now! Helen is with grandmother for 1871?
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yep me tooo, think my husband is going to ask for a divorce - on either grounds of neglect or boredom (he has no interest!)
Thank you so much you for effort Monica
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My husband and children have hung on for years through all my stories. When they get glassy eyed...I do something LOUD to awake them ;D
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That sounds like a good idea............ mmmmm what shall I use?
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Duplicate thread alert!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=624688.new#new
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Lisa, haven't forgotten about your Alexander.
Re-reading through what we had so far here.
That 1901 census that we had as a possibility for first marriage for Alexander, the child Alexandra, aged 1...is actually a son, Alexender, aged 1.
If we are at all on the right lines for Alexander Snr for 1901 at least, you would think Alexander Jnr would have died before 1913 and certainly by 1914 when your grandfather Alexander was born. Not that we can find anything on that potential first family to be able to firm things up :-\
Monica :)
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Hi Monica,
Going back to the drawing board and taking into account the definates (having been round the world and back and knowing everything about every Alexander Williams lol).
My Alexander Williams married Catherine Rafferty //at North Shields Registry Office 17/05/1913 He is 44 years Bachelor occ Engineering Labourer - father named as John Williams Deceased, Mariner.
I have a birth of their first daughter Winifred C Williams Sept 1913-1931, I presume the reason they married at the registry office is because she was pregnant with Winifred at the time.
Having looked at the 1901 and 1911 census, there is an Alexander Williams b 1869 living as a boarder in South Shields and his occupation is Engineering shop labourer born Banff. I have a hunch that this is my Alexander Williams as it would be very unusual for two people with the same name living in the same area with the same occupation and age living in South Shields and coming from Banff.
The problem there starts............. I cannot find an Alexander Williams born in Banff in 1969, I have found others, but not for the exact year which means I am unable to get hold of his birth certificate.
Another hunch I have is that Alexander was living with Elizabeth on 1901 census and they had a child called Alexander b1901, I dont think they were actually married, I think maybe she took his surname. I cant find a death for either Elizabeth or Alexander Jnr, which makes me think that the couple separated and Alexander Jnr was brough up by a stepfather with his mother remarrying. This may be totally wrong, this is something I need to explore a little further. I feel that Alexander may not have told Catherine that he already had a son called Alexander, the information I get from my family is very vague as he passed away when my mother was young, however, it has been mentioned that he was a very closed person and his motto was "tell nobody nowt"!
Can of Worm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I have a family member who lived in Northumberland in 1901 and the census states that he was born in Baff, Scotland, which I take to be a spelling error and it is actually Banff, Scotland.
My question is if someone says they were born in Banff, would this mean it was actually the town of Banff or could anyone tell me which other towns I could look at when seeking a birth, where in 1869 would be known as Banff (I mean neigbouring towns as I am not from the area).
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Based on your post, I think I can see the family that you mean.
Lived in South Shields, Durham?
If this is the correct assumption, then something isn't right.
This is not a very common last name anywhere in Banffshire
Only one birth in the entire county for this man's name between 1855 and 1946 ! ( Forglen)
This child also died within a year of birth, so not the man at 1901
Either your man was not born in Banff(shire) or he had a different birth name
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I have a family member who lived in Northumberland in 1901 and the census states that he was born in Baff, Scotland, which I take to be a spelling error and it is actually Banff, Scotland.
My question is if someone says they were born in Banff, would this mean it was actually the town of Banff or could anyone tell me which other towns I could look at when seeking a birth, where in 1869 would be known as Banff (I mean neigbouring towns as I am not from the area).
It could mean the burgh (town) of Banff, or the parish of Banff, or elsewhere in the county of Banff. There is no way of telling what the enumerator thought he was writing down in 1901.
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He is also showing Banff in 1911 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWCZ-CFN
What happened between 1901 when he showed married to Elizabeth and had a one year old son Alexander?
Have you been able to confirm his father's name from his marriage cert (assuming he married Elizabeth as in 1911 he is showing as single).
You may find that his birth reg may have been under the name Williamson. There are a few possibilities for him with that spelling variant such as this one https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYT7-GDW or this one https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XY1M-FF8
Monica
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Thank you Anne, your right something isn't right, I have tried for a couple of years now and researched every Williams in Banff to the extent of anyone in Scotland :)
Monica, I would love to know what happened to Elizabeth because I cant locate a marriage for him to Elizabeth and then cant find a child Alexandra born in 1900, I am familiar with Northumberland/Durham but that hasn't helped, I am swayed to believe that they weren't married and like Anne mentioned about his birth "Something isn't right".
I definitely know he married in Northumberland in 1913 as a Bachelor (to my ggm), with a father named as John (deceased) but that hasn't helped either.
I think he moved from his birth town in about 1880's and ended up in Durham. I have for definite on 1901 (birthplace Banff) and 1911 (birthplace Banff, Scotland) census and both so that's why i questions where it could have been exactly. It does seem strange that he would have moved to Durham from Banff unless of course he was involved in the Fishing Industry.
Then I question why would someone say they were born in Banff, why Banff, how would he have even heard of a town called Banff if he didn't have a connection with the Town.
Researching your family history should come with a warning about how frustrating it would be.
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Re the son Alexander, age 1 and born in South Shields, the only possible entry I could see was a 1st Qrt birth entry in South Shields for an Alexander Williamson Stott, MMN Dale...which doesn't make much sense either :-\
Monica
Added: Ahh, this is 1911 for this Alexander and family so we can exclude https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWCD-2ZC
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Is there anything in the names of his children that might give you some clues as to his mother's name? Did he name any of his sons John? Just thinking whether he may have used a form of Scottish naming pattern that sometimes gives some clues about family names.
Monica
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Might be an idea to link the previous threads on this (thought it was familiar) to avoid the same information being repeated.
William
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Memory overload for me :P
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=623889.9
Monica :)
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Was trying to find this again as someone posted this 1871 census entry in one of the other threads.
This 1871 census entry, did you ever follow up on it? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VB88-6BD
This is that Alexander's birth entry indexed https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYTW-G7M He gave his father as John Williamson on his 1913 marriage reg?
Marriage here for this couple https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTJS-T6X
One other child that I can see here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2HR-BG6F
Monica
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John Williamson, father, was omitted from the FS 1871 census index entry (he was at the bottom of the previous page).
He shows in the original image though:
John Williamson 26 b. Scotland...joiner by trade :-\
Feel the circles spinning around again!
Monica
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HI Monica, thank you so much for your help again :)
I think I explored the potential Milne family a few years ago and then found something that ruled this Alexander Williamson out, I must had deleted the tree that I started because of this...... oh I wish I hadn't because I cant remember why I thought it was not him.
So I have decided to start again and look a bit further into it, thanks for the links you offered. I have started the tree in ancestry again and am going to look a little bit further to see if there is anything at all that can confirm if this is my Alexander. I will let you know if anything comes up, fingers crossed.
thanks again :)
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You have had such a long old search haven't you :-\
Keep hopeful...and searching ;)
Monica
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Monica I did'nt actually realise how long it's been, but I started this thread in 2012... Blimey!
I will keep trying and trying and trying - my only worry is that he was illegitimate and I may never know the truth.
:) Lisa
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Hi. I have been searching for my gr grandfather for some years and have had the help from people on these boards in the past, all help greatly appreciated however, still no joy. I have therefore decided to start again with a different outlook and would be grateful for any advice anyone could offer:
My question is, If you had a relative who on a census (1901 in England) states that he was born in Banff, Scotland. What would be the first thing you would do to try and find his birth and if you were unable to find a birth (Scotlands People) for that area within 5 years either side for his name, what would you then do?
Is there any other records I need to look at if he was potentially illegitimate?
I don't have his mothers name, however I have what I think his father's name was (from marriage certificate).
Any guidance greatly appreciated.
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Have you found him in pre 1901 censuses?
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Hi Lisa :)
Just adding link to the other post Threads merged so that people can see what has already been found on Alexander Williams born c 1869.
Monica
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Try tracking him back through earlier censuses and looking at where siblings were born. It may be that he spent his early years in Banff and so thought he was born there, but was actually born elsewhere. I managed to track down a baptism for an ancestor who had given wrong birth location on a census by tracing his brother and figuring out the real birth location.
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Have you looked at the 1867 Forglen birth entry?
Malky
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Have you looked at the 1867 Forglen birth entry?
Malky
Thank you Malky, unfortunatelyHave you looked at the 1867 Forglen birth entry?
Malky
not my relative
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Have you found him in pre 1901 censuses?
Yes he is living in South SHields, Durham in 1901 - with a wife but I dont think he actually married her as cant find a marriage or even a birth for the son that they have living with them.
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Try tracking him back through earlier censuses and looking at where siblings were born. It may be that he spent his early years in Banff and so thought he was born there, but was actually born elsewhere. I managed to track down a baptism for an ancestor who had given wrong birth location on a census by tracing his brother and figuring out the real birth location.
Unfortunately I dont have the names of any of his siblings.
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Any "Williams" as witnesses in the marriage cert' ?
Malky
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Any "Williams" as witnesses in the marriage cert' ?
Malky
Unfortunately not, the only WIlliams I have is my gr grandfather himself..I can find his birth so nothing much to go on and I dont know the name of his mum.
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Have you looked at the 1939 records?
Malky
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Have you looked at the 1939 records?
Malky
Yes, but by 1939 he was 70 years of age, and his family were all grown up. I know lots about him from 1901 but nothing about a birth - that is the bit I am struggling with.
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What is his date of birth according to the 1939 register?
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In the absence of any records in Banff I would suggest you try Aberdeenshire. I have several family lines that wandered back and forth over the county boundary.
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According to 1939 Register his dob is 06/06/1868.
According to his death certificate he died Jan 1945 aged 76, birth approx 1869.
:)
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Does anyone have any advice on how I proceed to find out whether he was born illegitimately or would this not be possible without knowing at least 1 of his parents names?
Is there anyway I could potentially using any other source find out what his mum's name was?
Just trying to think outside the box.
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Does anyone have any advice on how I proceed to find out whether he was born illegitimately or would this not be possible without knowing at least 1 of his parents names?
It would be very difficult.
Is there anyway I could potentially using any other source find out what his mum's name was?
If I were you I would go to the IGI https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/igi and search for any Alexanders born in Banffshire in 1868. Then go through them looking for one born on 6 June. If that doesn't work try 1869/1870 etc.
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Its a big task - Scotlands People has 653 males named Alexander born in Banff from 1867 to 1870. (168 in 1868 alone)
Unfortunately the search returns don't allow you to cut the list down to month level.
Normally the effort would focus on the surnames of the parents, especially the mothers if there was a suggestion of illegitimacy but without that lead its a long hard slog through the lists
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Quicker to do on IGI, Falkryn ;) They show the same number of births that year as SP.
A hundred names to the page option, and then search and find. There are no Alexanders born on that day in 1868.
Just working through 1869 now. There are some that year such as this likely illegitimate birth www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYYC-9NL
I will finish 1869 and post any others.
Monica
Added: That Alexander linked above looks to be the only one. The other one looks to be a son, with father showing as Alexander www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYBQ-JRC
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Hi Monica
Ive worked through the 68,69,71,72 and looked at the Alexanders born in June on family search- no luck and also those where I think are illegitimate.
Somehow I think my grf may have given a wrong dob on the 1939 census.... that wouldn't surprise me.
I think I will keep going and if need me I will check every Alexander born in Banff..... possible see yous in a few years time lol :)
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The Alexander Edward born 6 June 1869 in Keith...I think died in Keith the following year :-\
Monica
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The Alexander Edward born 6 June 1869 in Keith...I think died in Keith the following year :-\
Monica
Yes thats the same as I got.
I have also ruled out the following:
Alexander McWilliam born 16/04/1868 Keith and Borham to Elspet's
Alexander McWilliam born 15/02/1869 Kieth to Helen
Alexander McWilliam born to Anne also ruled out - his twin James survived.
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What was his wifes name please?
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What was his wifes name please?
His wife was called Catherine Rafferty but he didn't marry her until 1913 in Northumberland. He was aged 44 when he got married and according to marriage certificate he was a bachelor. His wife was much younger.