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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: wilcoxon on Thursday 15 November 12 13:14 GMT (UK)
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Someone I know of found this photo on an old demolition site in Manchester, The signature C Ireland is on the back.
A Charles Ireland ran a photographers at 25 Lower Mosley Street, Manchester, in the early part of the 20th c.
Can anyone shed some light on who the group of men may be.
The photo is quite large, 51 x 32 inches .
Thanks
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WOW - what a great old photo and so much detail in it - the remnants of wallpaper. the lovely old worn rug and the gorgeous corbels - so much to see. What is that reflected in the mirror - looks like perhaps an old gramaphone???
The bloke in the lighter colours sitting next to the desk looks like he was superimposed after the original photo was taken - maybe he was late for the meeting ;D and they pencilled him in
There is a signature on the lower rhs of the picture but I can't make it out and I wonder if the pattern on the rug has any symbolism it looks like a stylized letter A perhaps???
I've made it a bit bigger for you and got rid of the shoe :-\ to bring it out a bit more - couldn't straighten up the lean on it though sorry - hope someone can solve the mystery for you.
Cheers
Maureen
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The `lighter` man is that way because the photo was very dirty , the person who found it tried to wipe the grime off, but then stopped.
Whoever they are , they don`t seem to be posing very formally.
Signature in the corner is C Ireland, not on the back as I put in the first post .
Thanks.
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Looks Edwardian.Could be a Masonic Lodge or some such.
jim
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thats what I was thinking Jim, there is a glass jar on the center table with a big ledger beside it, wondering if they were counting votes/electing the committee or something
the address of the building where it was found might hold a clue to the photo origin
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I doubt that it would be Masonic in this informal setting and they are not in ceremonial dress...meetings were held in the Temple behind closed doors... there are no masonic symbols or banners.
Just my opinion.
Carol
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the address of the building where it was found might hold a clue to the photo origin
I`ve tried to contact the person who found it, and asked where it was .
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It was found in Lloyd Street Manchester, in a skip between the town hall and the library .
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Is that the camera reflected in the mirror Maureen?
Caroline.
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Could you write to the Manchester Evening News with a copy of the photo, asking readers for information?
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I was wondering if it was a group of Manchester City Councillors at the Town Hall. Looked on the Manchester Town Hall website though and the architecture of the current one (dating from the late 1870s) doesn't seem to match anything in the photo. Nice panoramic views of the major rooms though.
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What an interesting photograph.
Looking at the top of the wall the design looks uneven so I would think the group are in one half of a larger room. The carpet seems to confirm this as there are two large carpets on the floor.
Then there are the faces of the men. The man in the middle who looks like he is writing in a very large book looks older than the rest so perhaps he is the main man. There are also a lot of younger unbearded men on the edges at the front with a couple at the back to the right hand side which could suggest older and younger generations.
Did wonder if the men are members of a Bank or some sort of Club. One man appears to be reading so perhaps not a formal photo especially as the men sitting on chairs are not in a symetrical position and there is the edge of a larger table to the right as well.
Jean
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I wonder if its one of the meeting rooms inside the old Corn Exchange which was built in the 1820s. I can't find an photo online of inside the building and of course its now a shopping center ::)
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It's to say the least a long shot but the mirror seems to reflect the view out of a window opposite where the men are seated. In it appears to be the apex of a building feature opposite the one they are in. Don't know if it's possible to tell any more from a closer scan/photo of the original.
S_L
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I was wondering if it was Manchester Literary & Philosophical Society? I can`t find anything though.
Mo
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It certainly looks like that kind of gathering, doesn't it, Mo? But the glass on the table might indicate an election of some kind.
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I was wondering if it was Manchester Literary & Philosophical Society? I can`t find anything though.
I think that is a very good suggestion. There is a photo of them here in 1865 in a very similar pose. About a third of the way down the page here:
http://gerald-massey.org.uk/brierley/index.htm
I wonder if it is worth contacting the owner of the site. He has lots of photos of members of the society who all look like grey haired bearded gentlemen - and some are very similar to the ones in the photo. eg Benjamin Brierley, Samuel Laycock, Edwin Waugh.
Milly
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and another later on here c 1911 (at least I think it is - the site is on portuguese!)
http://dererummundi.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/cem-anos-de-nucleo-atomico.html
and some at Manchester Image Collection - this one c 1900
http://images.manchester.gov.uk/web/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=51851&reftable=ecatalogue&refirn=54861
Milly
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Given location of the find, could possibly be The Memorial Hall on Lloyd St.
When was the photo found?
Skippy
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The photo has been cleaned .
Some very interesting suggestions from you all.
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It was found 18 months ago, the frame was broken and the glass smashed. :(
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lol, the glass jar appears to be the rim of the man seated behind the table's sleeve ::)
The one thing that does strick me is how many of the older men have full beards! almost like a a convention trying to select who is going to play Santa Claus at Christmas.
Its cold in that room, a couple of men of an overcoat or cloak on.
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While browsing through the old posts of restorations etc. I came across this wonderful thread and am wondering if the photograph was ever identified.
It's a grad old photo and would look terrific on my wall.
Di
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..
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I just had to have a go at this one, took a while but I love the detail !!!!!!!!
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Hi
I have managed to correct for the lean of the photo (perspective correction) and also cleaned up the tone and colour somewhat
Hope it is of use :)
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The mirror appears 3/4 possible 5 feet above the heads of the standing men, what possible vantage point would a mirror placed so high achieve?? ;)
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reflect light :D
Irene
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a close up of the mirror & 4 gentlemen,
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It looks like some kind of Council or Board of Guardians perhaps?
Regards
William Russell Jones.
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it looks like we will never know who they are, here are a few more & by the way the gentleman on the far left is standing on the back of the chair, and I can't help seeing the resemblance to lord lucan, a close up of the table that someone thought was a glass it's actually is his shirt cuff, will post more photo's soon,
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a few more
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maybe there are book's covering the architecture of the town hall & library, pictures, painting's, here are the 2 coving's in photo,
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the photograph has now been framed if only for protection, I will be taking it to a price your antiques in Wrexham in sebtember, also looks like a bit of forgery has been going on whats going on here. ??
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photo
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and here's the other 4, why.
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6 1n all
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just been looking on page 2 posted by millymcb in Manchester image collection, showing 10 people in a group photo, 5 of these have a very strong resemblance to my photo, even though this photo is about 10 years older, I would think, going from left to right number 1 & 2, 4, 6,& 7
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here are the 5 photos.
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photos
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second one
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fourth one
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sitting down no 6.
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bottom middle,
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I`m amazed this puzzle hasn`t been solved yet.
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looking again at millymcb on page 2 showing a group of gentlemen in Manchester library, the site being in Portuguese, the second gentleman from the right in my opinion is ALBERT EINSTEIN,
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think I've taken this photograph as far as it can go in recognition, has anyone got any more possible names other than Brierley, laycock, Waugh, had a few inquiries about selling this and had some very tempting offers.
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The Portuguese article does mention Albert Einstein !!
This whole episode with the Manchester Literary Society photo has been such a trip, I have thoroughly enjoyed watching the mystery be unraveled ... thanks
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http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Papers_Manchester_Quarterly_1902_v28_1000537395/113 just seen this relating to MILLYMCB post of the Manchester literary club photo, none of these look like any one in my photo maybe one, concerning some literary clue portraits by john Mortimer, names are Sam bamford, joseph chattwood, Charles Hardwick, john page, Edwin Waugh,(who might be in photo)ben Brierley, Richard Rome bealey, Charles swain, john Harland, Thomas turner Wilkinson, Alex Gordon Henderson, Jesse Percy stokes, David Morris, William Richardson, and not in photo Charles potter.
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https://archive.org/details/papersman35mancuoft on this site papers of the Manchester literary club, on vol 34 1907-08 has a photo on page 107 (although not numbered) of a poet named William valentine burgess, this is the exact photo in my photograph only the background has been changed, and also underneath photograph taken by Charles ireland here he is as seen in my photo,
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https://archive.org/stream/manchesterliter00mortgoog#page/n8/mode/thumb and finely here they are, not all but the rest are in here somewhere, so it looks like they have been cut out and pasted onto photograph, going to be very busy for a while, will have to search for the reason,
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Here's a thought. I've looked at the panelling and the reflected panels in the mirror, also the coving and corbels and, along with the fireplace, they do not look English. Nothing to say that a British architect couldn't have been inspired by buildings on the continent, but my guess is that this is not in England.
AJ
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The signature C Ireland is on the back.
A Charles Ireland ran a photographers at 25 Lower Mosley Street, Manchester, in the early part of the 20th c.
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https://archive.org/details/papersman35mancuoft on this site papers of the Manchester literary club, on vol 34 1907-08 has a photo on page 107 (although not numbered) of a poet named William valentine burgess, this is the exact photo in my photograph only the background has been changed, and also underneath photograph taken by Charles ireland here he is as seen in my photo,
I think that as Charles Ireland is named on the original, then there is good chance that it is W V Burgess.
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W V B died on 15 Jan 1909. His address was Davenham, Wythenshawe Road, Northenden, Cheshire. He was 56.
This puts him in the right area and helps with a date.
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From the papers linked before, these hotels were meeting places:
The Cathedral; The Mitre; The Clarence; The Palatine; The Grosvenor and The Grand ( in 1884).
The Grand seems to have been the most recent.
Pg 12 mentions 70 th birthday and 20th year of Presidency celebrations for George Milner who is seated at the right hand side - when looking at the photo. The man with the beard, the central figure is Thomas Newbigging, I think.
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http://www.rookebooks.com/product?prod_id=34369
Thomas Newbigging image.
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There is a 1900 photograph of the Literary Club here (http://images.manchester.gov.uk/web/objects/common/webmedia.php?irn=51851&reftable=ecatalogue&refirn=54861)
*posted earlier by milliemcb - sorry!
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http://www.rookebooks.com/product?prod_id=34369
Thomas Newbigging image.
That doesn't look much like the chap I think / thought was him :-\
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think I've taken this photograph as far as it can go in recognition, has anyone got any more possible names other than Brierley, laycock, Waugh, had a few inquiries about selling this and had some very tempting offers.
Ben Brierley - this is interesting reading a it mentions the Manchester Literary Club.
http://www.johncassidy.org.uk/brierley.html
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I think the photo posted re BB etc is of the earlier members of the club.
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this is who we have so far 13 in all,
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It does seem to be sorted now, I would say - organisation and approximate date. :)
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a William valentine burgess has already been posted that's the third one standing from left,
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11 and 12 standing,
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and last one on the end,
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sitting L/R 2nd w. r. credland
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t newbigging, and George Milner, 6&7
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Well done!
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j newbigging- George milner
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and 8 and ten sitting, j. f. l. crossland & j d andrew
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8 & 10 sitting.
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Thread started - « on: Thursday 15 November 12 13:14 GMT (UK) »
Great work Ago, it`s only taken 2 years. :)
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hello Wilcoxon, it's been a while but very much enjoyable, and may I take this opportunity to thank you all, but we are not there yet, I'm going to post the rest of these gentlemen that have not yet been identified,
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and two more,
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2 more
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2 more
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another 2
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and last 1
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https://archive.org/stream/papersman26mancuoft#page/n146/mode/1up on this page on vol 26 the bed of diarmid & graina the 2 gentle men laying underneath 1 resembles laycock & the other one looks like he's in the photograph as well, can anyone lighten up this photo, and who's that standing in the dark.
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sorry just scroll it down 1 page.
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Do you think your number 5 is W E A Axon -pg 16 in the book?
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One looks like he is wearing a beret.
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yes Heywood it looks like him if only I could find an older photo of him, I'm on currently on this site showing the photo of him, he was the vice chairman of the vegetarian federal union, http://www.ivu.org/history/vfu/policy.html
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http://www.greatirishpeople.com/portraits.php?portraitid=john-cassidy also the gentleman standing under the stone looks like john Cassidy the sculpturist, his full goatee beard looks the same.
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http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/William_H._Bailey (http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/William_H._Bailey) , sir William henry bailey, president of the Manchester association of engineers, and much more, can be seen on page 4,
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http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/William_H._Bailey
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William H Bailey looks a likely candidate ,
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16 found 8 to go,
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8 to go;
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Well done Ago, a bit too cold for the Minera mountain, so keeping you busy ;)
Perhaps most people won`t get this :)
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hello Wilcoxon, actually I'm still walking them hills, keeps me fit I'm in training for the offa dyke path walk from Chepstow to prestatyn in may of next year, as for this photograph I also have a very very large camera that I bought last year, I wonder if Charles Ireland used one of these,
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just put this on e bay, I have poets coming out of my ears.
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just found the signature,