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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: fordofcrows on Thursday 22 November 12 20:36 GMT (UK)

Title: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: fordofcrows on Thursday 22 November 12 20:36 GMT (UK)
Hello all,

Sorry if this is a stupid question!

Why is it that the likes of Family Search and Durham Records Online contain records which aren't to be found in the Bishops' Transcripts?

Here's an example searching for Robert Wood b. 1798 in Chester Le Street, Durham

Family Search Org results:-

Robert Wood
gender:   Male
baptism/christening date:   05 Mar 1798
baptism/christening place:   CHESTER LE STREET,DURHAM,ENGLAND
birth date:   05 Feb 1798
father's name:   George Wood
mother's name:   Margaret Copeland
indexing project (batch) number:   P00058-1
system origin:   England-ODM
source film number:   91090

Durham Records Online:-

Baptisms   Chester-le-Street   Robert   Wood   1798   1798   Chester-le-Street   

Now, I like to go to the Bishops' Transcripts and search for any additional details which the aforementioned results might not contain but searching through..

England, Diocese of Durha...ranscripts ca., 1700-1900
Durham
Chester le Street
1765-1821

Robert Wood is not to be seen.  Why is this?

Please note that this is just an example - not a request for anyone to go looking.  This is a regular occurrence.  I was under the impression that the Bishop's transcripts had all records from all parishes in eg:  Durham.

Can I deduce from this that the people who I am searching for are Methodist/Quaker/Non-conformist/Catholic/Mormon?

Thanks for help and advice.





Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: JenB on Thursday 22 November 12 20:44 GMT (UK)
Quote
Can I deduce from this that the people who I am searching for are Methodist/Quaker/Non-conformist/Catholic/Mormon?

NO - the film number you quote, 91010, is for the Parish Church, Chester le Street.

The Bishops transcripts were copies of the original registers - it is always possible that an incomplete/incorrect copy was made.
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: JenB on Thursday 22 November 12 20:50 GMT (UK)
This is a regular occurrence.  I was under the impression that the Bishop's transcripts had all records from all parishes in eg:  Durham.

This isn't correct, I'm afraid.

The coverage isn't complete for all parishes, and there isn't complete coverage for all the years in those parishes which are included.
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: stanmapstone on Thursday 22 November 12 22:11 GMT (UK)
This article may help https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/England_Church_Records#Bishop.27s_Transcripts

Stan
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: fordofcrows on Thursday 22 November 12 22:18 GMT (UK)
Thank you for the prompt reply, JenB.  Although you have answered my initial query, it leaves me with a few more related questions.

Quote
The Bishops transcripts were copies of the original registers

Ah! I see.  Could you tell me where I might find the original registers?  (I realise that they might not exist anymore).

Also, is there any point in trawling through the Bishops' transcripts?  I mean, does it contain anything which isn't included in the LDS/Family Search Org site, itself?

And lastly, forgive my ignorance, but are there any other transcripts available online, other than Durham and the few other counties (partially) covered by the Bishop of Durham's Transcripts?

Quote
This article may help https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/England_Church_Records#Bishop.27s_Transcripts

I will have a good read of this, Stan.  Thank you.

Many thanks, JenB.

David





Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: fordofcrows on Thursday 22 November 12 22:23 GMT (UK)
Just to say that Stan's link covers all of my questions.

Thank you both very much.

I will mark this thread as solved in a minute.

Best wishes,

David
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: stanmapstone on Thursday 22 November 12 22:24 GMT (UK)
This Durham Record Office web page gives you all the information about the available records for Chester-le-Street St. Mary and St. Cuthbert
 http://www.rootschat.com/links/0sb4/

Stan
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc. [SOLVED]
Post by: fordofcrows on Thursday 22 November 12 22:35 GMT (UK)
Thanks, Stan.

 :)
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: barryd on Friday 23 November 12 00:26 GMT (UK)
The baptism of Robert Wood is not on the Transcripts! I have given you the link to the actual page and you can see it is a bit erratic with incomplete dates and dates out of order on this page. So its back to 91090. That original will give more information like some of the other children on the attached Transcript.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11768-171600-24?cc=1309819&wc=MMRX-YWD:277289205
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: fordofcrows on Friday 23 November 12 03:45 GMT (UK)
Hello Barry.  Thank you for helping but I'm afraid you have lost me here.

Quote
The baptism of Robert Wood is not on the Transcripts!

I know - that is my point.  If you re-read my earlier post:-

Quote
Please note that this is just an example - not a request for anyone to go looking.

And I'm sorry but what do you mean by...?

Quote
I have given you the link to the actual page and you can see it is a bit erratic with incomplete dates and dates out of order on this page.

Thank you.  I have studied the link you provided but the dates appear to be in order, (with the exception of a couple of entries) - February 1798 to April 1798.  You're not referring to the date of birth are you?

What do you mean by:-

Quote
So its back to 91090
?

And..

Quote
That original will give more information like some of the other children on the attached Transcript

Which original?  Which other children?  And what do you mean by `attached transcript'?

I am very grateful for any help and I don't want to come across as being difficult, but I am curious as to what you mean, here.  Could you elaborate please?

David

PS;  Barry - if you are still up and about and reading this, please accept my apologies and see my more recent post on the next page.













Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: fordofcrows on Friday 23 November 12 04:07 GMT (UK)
Actually Barry,  I think I have worked out some of the points you are making..

Quote
So its back to 91090

You are referring to the original microfiche, yes?  If so, I am sure it would be helpful to see these things.  Where might I find them?  Other than travelling 100's of miles to Durham Records Office, I mean.

[Edit]  The Durham Records Office online shop, when it opens.  Yes?  Or are there any other sources available?

Are the microfiche(s) not taken from the BTs?

`Attached transcript' - the link you sent.  Got you.

So you are saying that if I use the source film number to find the original microfiche, it should contain more information than is given in the BTs?

[Edit] Yes, still editing and working it out!  Heh! Heh

Okay - JenB said
Quote
NO - the film number you quote, 91010, is for the Parish Church, Chester le Street.

I completely understand now!

I'm not really a beginner - just new(ish) to pre-1837.  It's a real headache but I think I'm getting there.

Sorry for being dense.  And thank you for your help.

David







Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: andycand on Friday 23 November 12 04:34 GMT (UK)
Hi David

In theory you should be able to find an image of the baptism in the BTs but it is not on the page where you would expect it to be. There are a number of possible reasons for this,

1. The entry was missed when writing up the BTs
2. The entry is out of order and on a different page.
3. The transcription of the Parish Register is incorrect

What you need to do is to access the image of the Parish Register to confirm that the transcript on Familysearch is correct. The Latter Day Saints have filmed the register (film number 91090) and you can access the film by ordering it through a nearby LDS Family History Centre. There are a couple in Lincolnshire and if you look at the Family History Centers link at the top of the Familyseach.org page you can find the details.

Andy
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: fordofcrows on Friday 23 November 12 04:46 GMT (UK)
Andy (and of course, Barry),

A huge penny has dropped and a lightbulb has lit above my head!  Thank you for this wonderful news.  So it's not me going insane - pages out of order, details omitted, incorrect transcripts, etc., BUT all is not lost - if I order the original films, then there is a good chance that the details I am looking for, will be on there.  Brilliant!

Okay, just one more question (I know I keep saying that but..), these`films' will come in the form of a microfiche, yes?  Is there any way of viewing these things without one of those reading machines?  For instance, can they be looked at by scanning them in using a standard scanner, and enlarging them?

Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: fordofcrows on Friday 23 November 12 04:54 GMT (UK)
It's `stupid O' Clock' here in the UK so I must retire for the night.  I will check any replies tomorrow.

A big thanks to all of you amazing folk.

Until tomorrow...

David ;)
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: andycand on Friday 23 November 12 05:00 GMT (UK)
Hi David

You actually have to go to the Family History Center to view them, The film is sent to the Family History Center and is there for a certain period, I think they advise you that it has arrived and you go when the Center is open and view it. I'm not sure what the current cost of ordering the film is.

Many of the films that you can access at your Local Records Office are copies of the LDS films, of course your local RO would most likely only have films relating to your area.

Andy
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: LizzieW on Friday 23 November 12 09:41 GMT (UK)
Quote
You actually have to go to the Family History Center to view them,

And our nearest Family History Centre which is 20 miles away insists that you also go there to order the microfiche, which is annoying to say the least.
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: fordofcrows on Friday 23 November 12 13:48 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the replies Andy and LizzieW.

Andy first - if I travel to these places, in your opinion, or experienced opinion, what are the chances of the films containing nothing more than what is available on Family Search?

LizzieW - I agree.  In this day and age, what with the internet and everything, it is clearly unacceptable that people have to travel to see these things.  I reiterate my earlier question - what about the elderly and disabled?  Does this not discriminate against them?  And of course, there are people who live overseas.

It is an elderly, disabled lady that introduced me to this wonderful hobby, when I started off by researching a great uncle; a WW1 soldier who was killed in Ypres.  She would not be able to travel.  Of course, there is the option of hiring a researcher but I dread to think what they charge.

Thank goodness for Rootschat, that's all I can say.

It will also be a step in the right direction when the Durham Records Office create an online shop.  I hope that other record offices follow this example; if they haven't already.

As a side-note, I know that as a relative newcomer to this pastime, I have been spoilt.  There will be people reading this who have been a family history researcher, since the times when there was no other option than to get out of the armchair and travel the country in search of these records.

The good news is that since the likes of TV shows such as `Who Do You Think You Are? this hobby has greatly increased in popularity.  This will surely mean that these records become more accessable to all.

David







Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: JenB on Friday 23 November 12 14:51 GMT (UK)
In this day and age, what with the internet and everything, it is clearly unacceptable that people have to travel to see these things. 

A vast amount of information is now on the internet that wasn't there only a few years. The Bishops Transcripts are a case in point - they've only been available for a short time. More and more is coming on line every day via, for instance, free Reg or Durham records Online. However it is a sheer impossibility just to get everything available 'just like that' as you seem to wish.

Not so many years ago all family history had to be done by travelling to record offices and family history centres. I still go regularly to a record office as do many other Rootschatters.

It will also be a step in the right direction when the Durham Records Office create an online shop.

Since you know the precise date of the record you are interested in there is nothing to stop you ordering it direct from Durham Record Office. I'm not sure of their photocopying charges, but I don't think they are prohibitive. I have ordered records from them myself in this way.

Andy (and of course, Barry),

A huge penny has dropped and a lightbulb has lit above my head!  Thank you for this wonderful news.  So it's not me going insane - pages out of order, details omitted, incorrect transcripts, etc.,

That's what I suggested in reply#1

So you are saying that if I use the source film number to find the original microfiche, it should contain more information than is given in the BTs?

The film of the original parish record (film  91010 ) should contain the same information was you had hoped to see on the Bishops Transcript (as explained in the link Stan gave you, the transcripts were supposed to be copies of the original registers). They will probably contain more information than you found on the Family Search record. Alternatively you could purchase the record from Durham Records Online.
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: LizzieW on Friday 23 November 12 16:01 GMT (UK)
I don't mind travelling to a Family History Centre to view microfiche, what I do think is a waste of time is having to travel many miles just to ask them to order the one you want.  There is e-mail, 'phone and even snail mail if necessary to place an order.  I buy lots of things on line and I don't have to travel all over the UK to place the orders.
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: GrahamSimons on Friday 23 November 12 16:23 GMT (UK)
LizzieW - I agree.  In this day and age, what with the internet and everything, it is clearly unacceptable that people have to travel to see these things.  I reiterate my earlier question - what about the elderly and disabled?  Does this not discriminate against them?  And of course, there are people who live overseas.

Please remember the Family History Centers are not primarily there for the general public. They are there for the purposes of the LDS Church, and whatever services they provide to non-members are out of their generosity, not out of duty. I don't think we should be looking a gift horse in the mouth.

And there are Family History Centers world-wide.


Apologies, rant over.

Graham
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: t_creaney on Friday 23 November 12 16:49 GMT (UK)

I don't mind travelling to a Family History Centre to view microfiche, what I do think is a waste of time is having to travel many miles just to ask them to order the one you want.  There is e-mail, 'phone and even snail mail if necessary to place an order.  I buy lots of things on line and I don't have to travel all over the UK to place the orders.

Online ordering is now the only permitted way to order films, has been for a year or so.

https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Ordering_Microfilm_or_Microfiche

tc
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: barryd on Friday 23 November 12 17:55 GMT (UK)
Back to 91090 the original baptism record and the film where the record of Robert Wood's baptism IS recorded. That is where familysearch.org had transcribed the record which we do see. But the Robert Wood baptism is one of a limited number of baptisms which was performed during the tenure of Bishop Shute Barrington, Bishop of Durham. That is until the last day of December 1812 when HM Government standardized the CofE parish register system. If you read the records of the other children on the C-L-S page I sent you you will see what I mean. Both parents names, where the parents were born, sometimes father of the mother etc.. This was not included on the Internet version which we can see.
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: osprey on Saturday 24 November 12 21:58 GMT (UK)
photcopying charges for Durham RO are here

http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk/Pages/Howmuchdocopiescost.aspx#copy-staffsecpost

 ;)
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: Billyblue on Saturday 24 November 12 22:32 GMT (UK)
 
Online ordering is now the only permitted way to order films, has been for a year or so.

https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Ordering_Microfilm_or_Microfiche
tc

Agreed. It is here in Australia, anyhow.  Our FHS has a licence from LDs for people to order films and view at our library, even though there are quite a few of their centres in our city.
Surely the UK is up to date with online ordering too?

Dawn M
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: fordofcrows on Sunday 25 November 12 04:11 GMT (UK)
Quote
Please remember the Family History Centers are not primarily there for the general public. They are there for the purposes of the LDS Church, and whatever services they provide to non-members are out of their generosity, not out of duty. I don't think we should be looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Sorry Graham.  I wasn't actually aware of that.  Of course, I am grateful for the LDS Church for the amazing free service they provide - I just didn't see the link between LDS and Family History Centers.  And yes, I do feel like an idiot.

Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: rancegal on Sunday 25 November 12 15:37 GMT (UK)


  Don't forget www.freereg.org.uk  folks. It's always worth a look; new stuff is being uploaded all the time as the noble band of volunteers struggles through the inkblots, crossings out, squiggles, and vicar's abbreviations to transcribe PRs from all over England so they are available free of charge online.
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: JenB on Sunday 25 November 12 16:13 GMT (UK)
  Don't forget www.freereg.org.uk  folks.

I did mention it in reply #17  ;)


A vast amount of information is now on the internet that wasn't there only a few years. The Bishops Transcripts are a case in point - they've only been available for a short time. More and more is coming on line every day via, for instance, free Reg or Durham records Online.
Title: Re: A question about Bishops' Transcripts and FamilySearch etc.
Post by: rancegal on Sunday 25 November 12 21:39 GMT (UK)
  Don't forget www.freereg.org.uk  folks.

I did mention it in reply #17  ;)


A vast amount of information is now on the internet that wasn't there only a few years. The Bishops Transcripts are a case in point - they've only been available for a short time. More and more is coming on line every day via, for instance, free Reg or Durham records Online.

    I did see that,thanks, Jen, but thought I would post a link as well