RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Chattykathy on Wednesday 01 June 05 16:45 BST (UK)
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Hi! I just found a living link to the MORAN side of my family who told me a family story that our GGG grandmother was a Lady in Waiting to Queen Victoria. At 1st I totally discounted this story as impossible but they went on to say that this woman had gone against her family (and birth right) and married "low", was disowned and eventually, immigrate to America.
Could an Irish born (probably RC born but maybe not) have position of Lady in Waiting to Queen Victoria? I have found 2 Ladies in 1881 census b. in Dublin.
Window of time for this to be possible seems narrow, possibly 1838-1848 if she was unmarried at the time.
Mary nee ??? b. in Ire 1820-1822.
m. Martin Moran b. 1822 IRE marriage date unknown
1st known children b. 1849-1852 in Lancashire.
They move to Coventry and have 4 more children and then immi. to US in 1863.
In 1861 UK Census, Mary is "Washer Woman" and Martin is Hod Laborer.
Found names of about 10 Ladies in Waiting to QV at various times -- most are famous and definately high born.
There is supposedly an "exhaustive" list w/ full details of 32 L-I-W attending QV at her Coronation in 1838 -- found 2x on net - but URL not working! Argh!
Also found statement that her L-I-W were all "Cousins" and political "appointments" (Whigs) to influence her politics. True?
However, if Mary nee ?? Moran had this position, could she have quite young (teenager?) or before QV became Queen. Would QV have had contemporary L-I-W's as a child?
Not trying to claim any blue blood here -- so don't anyone get upset about Americans putting on airs.....just trying to track down one more Moran! I'm thinking she may have been a domestic servant or ladies maid and story got embellished, but would like to find household servants listing.
Also, I see QV kept house @ Kensington, Balmoral and Isle of Wright -- were there other residences?
Many Thanks for any help/advice/information.
kathy
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Hi Kathy,
According to this article Victoria visited Ireland before her first official visit in 1849.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_of_the_United_Kingdom#Ireland
Could your Mary Moran have worked where the Queen stayed perhaps?
Debbie
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Hi Debbie,
Thanks for link and suggestion! I think I may have read this link -- journal entry or article about traveling party of the Queen but will recheck to make sure I haven't missed it!
Thanks!
kathy
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Hi Kathy
As far as I can remember, Queen Victoria moved out of Kensington Palace, where she had spent her first 18 years with her mother, when she became queen in 1837 and moved to Buckingham Palace as her London residence. She and Albert acquired Osborne House on the Isle of Wight in 1845 and Balmoral in 1852. Windsor was one of her favourite residences and she spent most of her widowhood at either Balmoral or Windsor. (She was known by journalists as the Widow of Windsor.)
To be a Lady in Waiting or other close attendant on the Queen, the ladies definitely had to be high-born. To a certain extent, they were political appointments and this is what caused Victoria to fall out with Sir Robert Peel when he came to office in 1839. She refused to dismiss her Whig ladies of the bedchamber. As a result Lord Melbourne remained in office as Prime Minister. It is highly unlikely that Victoria had a lady in waiting who was younger than she was until after your Mary married. I think that Debbie may have hit on the answer - Mary may have worked where the Queen visited and the story was embellished. Sorry if this disappoints you. :(
Nell
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Hi Nell, thanks for you information. I just went to Debbie's site as well as the offical Buckingham Palace Archive-- some very detailed information about her life/ reign and diaries.
At her coronation, she only mentions the boys who bore her train and the "the Princesses" and names of certain notables.
In one diary entry she mentions the "girls" who helped her dress -- she herself was about 17 or 18 ....so maybe there were some contemporaries - but they may have been Ladies Maids not LIW.
I think you are correct and certainly confirm my findings so far --- I'm only disappointed in not being able to find documentation on "my" Mary Moran. Hard enough with no maiden name yet!
Thanks!
kathy
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While googling came across the website of the Shaw family who immigrated and settle in the US which is NO RELATION or CONNECTION to me, BUT, the 1st paragraph caught my eye -- I have paraphrased and shortened slightly...
"Nancy Shaw was born in England, March 4, 1805. She was a first cousin to Queen Victoria and her 'Lady in Waiting". (Ladies in Waiting were and are are chosen from among the cousins.) She was the youngest of 15 children. Her father was Henry Shaw, a member of the House of Lords and also a wealthy farmer from Broad Bottom, England.........
.........Later, she fell in love with her coachman, also named "Henry Shaw." He, while being either a first or second cousin of hers did not belong to the Royal Family and was a "commoner." For this reason she was refused to marry him. For this reason they ran away and were married......I believe in.....England. They then fled to America."
SO, this may be a family legend as well but my hunt continues for a "Lord Hunt" who may have had a daughter, Mary, that followed Nancy Shaw's lead (or vice versa) and married a poor laborer named Martin Moran.......
Huge boulders of salt here, but worth a look. Now instead of a List of Ladies....I need a list of MP's and Gentlemen of wealth/influence.
kathy
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Sackload of salt, Kathy if not a whole boat load. To be a first cousin, she would either be of German origin (Victoria's mother was a minor German princes) or a child of one of George III's offspring. They are all quite well documented. George III had a huge number of children:
George IV (a bit of a ladies man but only one legitimate child, d 1817)
Frederick Duke of York married but no children
William IV no surviving legitimate issue, 10 children by his mistress Mrs Jordan
Charlotte m Frederick King of Wurttemburg no children
Edward Duke of Kent (Victoria's father) - only Victoria
Augusta - never married
Elizabeth - m Frederick Langrave of Hesse-Homburg no children
Ernest Duke of Cumberland - became King of Hanover
Augustus Duke of Sussex married twice - 2 children from his 1st marriage (contravened Royal Marriage Act)which was annulled, no children from his second
Adolphus Duke of Cambridge - one son and two daughters, grandfather of Queen Mary wife of George V
Mary - m her 1st cousin once removed William of Gloucester - no children
Sophia - never married
Octavius - died v young
Alfred - died v young
Amelia - m ? Charles Fitzroy - she certainly fell in love with him but was forbidden to marry.
No sign of a Shaw or Moran anywhere :(
Nell
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Hi Nell -- you sure have your history down! I searched QV's genealogy on line today for hours! and I'm not coming up with anything, anywhere even remotely feasible either. All blood links to her are definately high born or royality of all levels. Have done some searching but not very well for Landed Gentry who may have had some political tie which granted them favors but not having any success. Out of curiosity, will search for the Henry Shaw later...to see if any merit to the mention of his name.
I think the Shaw's are under the same illusions as the Morans. Wonder why this myth so popular? QV was very sympathetic to Ireland so they viewed her with paticular benevolence, perhaps?
Thanks for your post -- I might be able to pass a test on her life now!
P.S. I omitted the part that QV given her (Miss Shaw) jewels which financed her runaway trip to America! Would have put you over the top!
kathy
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Have not noticed anyone mentioning this site, it may be of use
http://www.mypage.uniserve.com/~canyon/queen_victoria.htm
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Hi, another American that is curious of family history. I have written letter from ancestor who stated Queen Victoria took Aunt Docka/Docka (Batten/Bailey?) as a child and trained her for her maid (1st waiting maid). My ancestor wrote that there was some distant relationship between them and the Queen.
The Queen gave Aunt Doka a brooch with 10 diamonds surrounding a braid of the Queen's hair. My Great Aunt remembers her Grandma wearing it, and jewelers caution about trusting other jewelers; Great Aunt discusses it was passed down to the wrong person (went to brother's daughter), breaking the 'eldest daughter' rule that was set;that person broke up the broche, made a ring which was lost in the depression, and the hair was never put in ring but lost too.
Anyway, my question is about terminology. 1st waiting maid, and lineage are confusing. Cousins would not always have the same last names if the female married a male of different last names, right? Also, there are 1-8 cousins, and also removed; I am asking because one response seemed rock solid that there would have to be a common last name of the ones they listed in the response.
I cannot find a first name of a relative named Doka/Docka (Batten or Bailey was last name) and wonder if that has some other meaning? Also, I wonder about taken a child to train and that meaning.
I know my great Aunt was a rock solid rationalist and prolific writer, so be reading her stating she saw her Grandma wearing it-this seems reliable. Any thoughts or suggestions of how to track this?
I appreciate any help or insight any of you have.
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... as a child and trained her for her maid (1st waiting maid).
Anyway, my question is about terminology. 1st waiting maid, and lineage are confusing.
Hello,
Welcome to Rootschat
Added: If during the Census period (every 10 years) 1841 to 1911 Occupations and Addresses may suggest links as employees (see next post).
Bear in mind some Nobility never stated their position as their Occupation in the Census.
Added: GRO or Registrar Certificates England & Wales from 1837 (if service declared at the event) might hold a clue. Birth Certificate should confirm Mother / both parentage. http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
For Scotland see Scotlands People.
Added: A Will may also confirm family relatives, depending on the level of detail.
Royal employees also received gifts too.
A 'Lady in Waiting ' and the 'waiting maid' can be different, as there are usually other Members and/or Nobility in the Household, who are also being attended.
Your questions can only be answered or confirmed if true, by researching your personal family relatives in B, M & D Certificates and other official records.
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Royal Archives
https://www.royal.uk/archives
For Royal servants and employees, Ledger records of the Lord Chamberlain or Lord Steward’s offices (depending upon the location and type of employment). Documents record their pay, lodging, gifts, and their pensions etc.
Added: See also following post by horselydown86
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LORD CHAMBERLAIN
Records of the Lord Chamberlain and other officers of the Royal Household
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C197
Other records in this Series Reference
DEPARTMENT OF THE LORD STEWARD or Household Below Stairs.
Lord Steward's Department: Comptroller of the Household: Accounts
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10376
Records of the Lord Steward, the Board of Green Cloth and other officers of the Royal Household
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C202
Other records in this Series Reference
Mark
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There was no story, at least handed down to me, that we had relatives in the household of Queen Victoria. But I happened to find two sisters, distant relatives of mine, who worked as coffee room maids at Buckingham Palace and another time at Osborne House. I found them on the census records first and then followed using the Staff Records as listed above. One married another staff member.
Best wishes with your search.
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FindMyPast has a collection called Royal Household Staff 1526-1924.
The collection information sheet can be viewed without registration. You can also do basic name searches without registration.
Use Search >>>A-Z of Record Sets (with household as the keyword) to access the search page, then Discover more about....
Here is the salient information:
The records fall into three main sections: Royal Household establishment lists, Royal Household index sheets and Royal Household payment and employment lists. Between them they contain extensive, but not complete, lists of Royal Household employees back to the 16th century.
Royal Household establishment lists
Royal Household Establishment Lists 1854-1924 (Royal Archives reference PERSO/EB)
Royal Household Establishment Books 1526-1920 (Royal Archives reference EB/EB)
Establishment Lists for Lord Chamberlain's Department 1837-1924 (Royal Archives reference LC/LCO/EB)
Establishment Lists for Master of the Household's Department 1835-1924 (Royal Archives reference MRH/MRH/EB)
Establishment Lists for the Royal Mews 1717-1924 (Royal Archives reference MEWS/EB)
Royal Household index sheets *Royal Household Index 1660-1901 (Royal Archives reference GB)
These index sheets relate to Royal employees and tradespersons. They have been compiled from records held at the Royal Archives and The National Archives, plus various printed sources.
Royal Household payment and employment lists
Lists of Pensions and Allowances 1814-1924 (multiple Royal Archives references, including PPTO/PP/HH, PPTO/PP/PEN and PPTO/TO/CL)
Lists of Salaries and Wages 1817-1924 (multiple Royal Archives references, including MEWS/SB, PPTO/PP/BAND and VIC/ADDA21)
Royal Household Account Books 1730-1845 (multiple Royal Archives references, including GEO/ADD17, GEO/MAIN and VIC/ADDO)
Royal Household Staff Details 1715-1924 (multiple Royal Archives references, including MRH/MRH/HH, MRH/SUPTWC and VIC/ADD/L)
Royal Mews Warrant Books 1760-1867 (Royal Archives reference MEWS/WB)
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There was one of her attendants who Victoria dismissed as she thought she was pregnant. Terrible scandal as it turned out to be cancer. A relative of the Marquis of Bute who was outraged at the insult & refused to entertain Victoria at Mount Stuart. He could have bought & sold her anyhow! ;D
Skoosh.
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Hello Skoosh
A Kenneth (not family related and deceased) use to visit our family and Dad. When Ken died, it was discovered at his funeral he was an Athol (but spelt only one 'l' apparently).
He dropped the use of "Athol" as a middle name. His 'Old Boy' Obituary after his full name it says (A, 1931- 1936) he was OSE during WW 2, a Pilot in aerial photography.
Although very polite and humble, Ken had an air of authority about him when he spoke and my Father commented on this after his death.
I'll have to look at Scotlands People.
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When I was a Joint Industry Board ... Apprentice Plumber and Plumber, we use to work at this very grand 3 storey town house and the Hon. Lady was bedridden and the 1st maid wouldn't let us go, without one of us going to her bedside to briefly explain the work we had done. The Master Plumber or Tradesman, always tried to delegate me.
We were told by our boss to address her as Lady --------- I was so nervous being a young Apprentice and the maid checked and took me up to her bedside, she was in her 80s. Anyway I got a bit tongue tied with the detail and suddenly her face went pinkish and she said BOY! TELL ME WHAT YOU HAVE DONE!
When her maid took me downstairs she said keep it simple the name of the job and reassure the Lady all finished, unless a second visit was required.
She had 3 main staff, plus a cleaner who did her washing and this younger chap was always there, but he wasn't her Son and described himself as a voluntary friend, but had been her Driver.
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There were many lovely houses we worked at, in the town, villages and in the countryside. Another, the man of the house and his gardener, cleared out their garden shed and put benches in, for us to have our break & dinner. His Wife use to bring out proper builders tea (a good hot brew) and the most generous slices of her fantastic home made cake. They were really nice people, despite their status, but to address them with first names only.
Mark
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Hello Skoosh
A Kenneth (not family related and deceased) use to visit our family and Dad. When Ken died, it was discovered at his funeral he was an Athol (but spelt only one 'l' apparently).
He dropped the use of "Athol" as a middle name. His 'Old Boy' Obituary after his full name it says (A, 1931- 1936) he was OSE during WW 2, a Pilot in aerial photography.
Although very polite and humble, Ken had an air of authority about him when he spoke and my Father commented on this after his death.
I'll have to look at Scotlands People.
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When I was a Joint Industry Board ... Apprentice Plumber and Plumber, we use to work at this very grand 3 storey town house and the Hon. Lady was bedridden and the 1st maid wouldn't let us go, without one of us going to her bedside to briefly explain the work we had done. The Master Plumber or Tradesman, always tried to delegate me.
We were told by our boss to address her as Lady --------- I was so nervous being a young Apprentice and the maid checked and took me up to her bedside, she was in her 80s. Anyway I got a bit tongue tied with the detail and suddenly her face went pinkish and she said BOY! TELL ME WHAT YOU HAVE DONE!
When her maid took me downstairs she said keep it simple the name of the job and reassure the Lady all finished, unless a second visit was required.
She had 3 main staff, plus a cleaner who did her washing and this younger chap was always there, but he wasn't her Son and described himself as a voluntary friend.
----------
There were many lovely houses we worked at, in the town, villages and in the countryside. Another, the man of the house and his gardener, cleared out their garden shed and put benches in, for us to have our break & dinner. His Wife use to bring out proper builders tea (a good hot brew) and the most generous slices of her fantastic home made cake. They were really nice people, despite their status, but to address them with first names only.
Mark
A bit off topic but worth a mention in brief.
We had free euro funded outer wall insulation on our private house fitted, plumbers extended outer wall pipes first, with new fall pipes including toilet down pipe a with the bath drain pipe jointed into that toilet down pipe. They too were interested in water levels! mainly in their cup of tea brews but also in keeping a water level in my bath tub as they had entered drain pipe to high in the fall pipe. LOL!! ;D
Happy New Year All. :D
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Hi All
dobfarm, they now say a good cup of strong tea, has anti-oxidants and healthful properties.
Our Boss would not have been happy with us, if some of the water wouldn't empty and neither would we!
We were also taught having the correct fall is also crucial in horizontal underground drainage, if it runs too fast or two slow.
We were taught how to wipe lead joints, boss lead, weld lead, leadwork, solder, braze, bend and set pipe, copper, thread steel pipe, the whole lot, all the Maths (mainly used by designers). Taught every conceivable thing, including Coal, Gas and Oil Installations, Building Regulations, stopping the spread of fires through floors in high rise, dry and wet Fire risers, electrical flow sensing and control valves, tank fresh water storage, filters, all this was part of our training! Swimming Pools. Drinking & waste water treatment basics. Although a lot is forgotten, it can be looked up again.
Now, I see a Plumbing system and it either looks cheap plastic piping and very angular, no nice swept bends and very very over complicated.
My Brother-in-Law has a heating & hot water system in a small modern two bed house and it has 3 electric circulating assistors (3 pumps) and the 'Engineers' haven't a clue how to fix it to start with.
When I see so called Tradesman (never been Apprenticed) cutting corners, I put my head in my hands. It makes me so >:( angry, or laugh at the stupidity!
I should like to see a push for training more skilled Building Tradesman and Tradeswomen in the UK.
I absolutely dispair at some of the Workmanship I saw and what I see now, if you can call it workmanship!
Don't need Spa Water, just a good old cup or mug of tea!
Thank you to all who have contributed to my questions.
Best wishes, Mark
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Mary nee ??? b. in Ire 1820-1822.
m. Martin Moran b. 1822 IRE marriage date unknown
1st known children b. 1849-1852 in Lancashire.
They move to Coventry and have 4 more children and then immi. to US in 1863.
In 1861 UK Census, Mary is "Washer Woman" and Martin is Hod Laborer.
In case Chattykathy is still around & looking for Mary's maiden name it looks like HUNT:
1861 RG 9; Piece: 2207; Folio: 14; Page: 4
Martin Moran 38 b Ireland mason's labourer
Mary Moran 38 b do washerwoman
Matthew Moran 12 b Liverpool
Peter Moran 9 b do
Ann Moran 6 b Coventry
Mary Moran 5 b do
Martin Moran 3 b do
Daniel Moran 5/12 b do
It is the 1870 US census where Martin is described as Hod Carrier.
From GRO index:
MORAN, MATTHEW HUNT
GRO Reference: 1849 D Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 357
MORAN, PETER HUNT
GRO Reference: 1852 J Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 12
MORAN, ANN HUNT
GRO Reference: 1854 J Quarter in COVENTRY Volume 06D Page 421
MORAN, MARY HUNT
GRO Reference: 1855 D Quarter in COVENTRY Volume 06D Page 355
MORAN, MARTIN HUNT
GRO Reference: 1858 S Quarter in COVENTRY Volume 06D Page 370
MORAN, DANIEL HUNT
GRO Reference: 1860 D Quarter in COVENTRY Volume 06D Page 398
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Hi All
dobfarm, they now say a good cup of strong tea, has anti-oxidants and healthful properties.
Our Boss would not have been happy with us, if some of the water wouldn't empty and neither would we!
We were taught having the correct fall is also crucial in horizontal underground drainage, if it runs too fast or two slow.
We were taught how to wipe lead joints, boss lead, weld lead, leadwork, solder, braze, bend and set pipe, copper, thread steel pipe, the whole lot, all the Maths (mainly used by designers). Taught every conceivable thing, including Coal, Gas and Oil Installations, Building Regulations, stopping the spread of fires through floors in high rise, dry and wet Fire risers, electrical flow sensing and control valves, tank fresh water storage, filters, all this was part of our training! Swimming Pools. Drinking & waste water treatment basics. Although a lot is forgotten, it can be looked up again.
Now, I see a Plumbing system and it either looks cheap plastic and very angular, no nice swept bends or very very over complicated.
My Brother-in-Law has a heating & hot water system in a small modern two bed house and it has 3 electric circulating assistors (3 pumps) and the 'Engineers' haven't a clue how to fix it or check it, without telephoning and having the manufacturer's technician talk him through it. Neither did I want to get involved, I have never seen such an over complicated system of dross in my life.
When I see so called Tradesman (never been Apprenticed) cutting corners, I put my head in my hands. It makes me so >:( angry, or laugh at the stupidity!
Some years ago, I had a letter, begging former Time-served Plumbers to teach and offering figures like £38 an hour. The UK government push people through University and many won't get jobs that pay enough to repay Student loans.
I should like to see the same push for skilled Building Tradesman and Tradeswomen in the UK.
I went to a modern loo in a Hotel Restaurant and I had to flush it 5 times before I could use it. It was also running continuously cistern water into the pan (Water Byelaw Contravention too - wasting treated tap water). When I lifted the lid off, it had the wrong (low) height siphon fitted, no wonder water was running continuous and it wouldn't flush easily!
I absolutely dispair at some of the Workmanship I saw and what I see now, if you can call it workmanship!
Don't need Spa Water, just a good old cup or mug of tea!
Thank you to all who have contributed to my questions.
Best wishes, Mark
1961 after Princess Margaret had complained about our smoky town after her visit to open a new school & we went as a smokeless zone area soon after. We had a tank airing cupboard copper hot tank fitted with a gas immersion heater, the plumber had been moaning to mum while slurping his tea about my dad earning £30 a week at the time with overtime, saying they could not earn nothing near that, just as his apprentice came to tell him he had put the union outer nut on the pipe the wrong way round from the other end of the pipe, he re-melted, then took the inner union off, lost his outer union nut and had to get a new complete union. For 30 years we had that floating outer union nut loose on that cold tank to hot tank pipe. ;D
Now back on topic. ;)
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Not found from official Royal records and incomplete, claimed to be Companion or attendant to Queen Victoria
Lady Emily Cathcart
(The Honourable Emily Sarah Cathcart)
Baroness Lehzen, Companion
Hannah Gooderson died 27[?] th August 1940 was one of Queen Victoria's former Personal Maids.
(Not in any date order)
https://www.rct.uk/collection/2906615/the-honourable-emily-sarah-cathcart-1834-1917
Amended
Mark
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Interesting thread. Did a bit with the lead wipes myself back in the day, getting it properly "Tinned!" I was taught. Lead sheathed cables though not pipes! ;D
Skoosh.
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Interesting thread. Did a bit with the lead wipes myself back in the day, getting it properly "Tinned!" I was taught. Lead sheathed cables though not pipes! ;D
Skoosh.
Yes Skoosh, we had to make sure water was running through the lead pipe with a listening device before cutting!
Some lead sheathed cables had thick clay copings placed a few inches above the run with "Electricity" stamped in the tops, but most cables didn't. Mark
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Mark, ours were heavy KV with steel-wire armour then wrapped in jute & bitumen, this had to be cut back to expose the lead for capping. I believe they were laid in sand & indeed bricked plus warning plastic tape.
The Princess Margaret was a bit smoky herself, probably killed her!
Skoosh.
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A drama series on BBC Radio 4 this week is supposedly based on reminiscences of a woman who was a maid to QV during the last weeks of her life. "Curtain Down at Her Majesty's - a Play in Five Acts". Maid's name was Winnie Powell; I don't know if she was real. 2019 is bi-centenary of Victoria's birth.