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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: BW252 on Wednesday 12 December 12 20:52 GMT (UK)
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I have a Helen Turnbull b1843 Jedburgh, (parents Robert Turnbull and Janet Aitken). Helen died 16 May 1868 in Edinburgh Maternity Hospital cause ? of heart after delivery 10 days. DC shows her as married to D Scobie of 25th Regt of Foot (KOSB) Margaret Robson sister informant. Residence Burnets Close, Edinburgh.
I cannot find a marriage for Helen and Scobieor a birth in 1868 for them Help please
:o 8) ??? ::) :P
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Can't see the marriage or Helen's birth :-\
Some of her siblings' births here:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT14-5JL
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT14-XYY
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT1W-XT5
Monica
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Monica
thanks - , I believe their are another 3 - Margaret 1837, Andrew 1837 and Robert 1840.
Harry
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2 Jedburgh births showing on Sp.
Eleanor Turnbull, b 28 April 1838.
Christian Turnbull, b 19 February 1844.
You will have to look them up for parentage, and you may only get the father's name..
Regards
Malky
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Helen died 16 May 1868 in Edinburgh Maternity Hospital cause ? of heart after delivery 10 days.
If she died in Edinburgh 10 days after giving birth....did she give birth in Edinburgh I wonder? Any birth cert would help with marriage details for parents as you know.
There is an Elizabeth Scobie birth showing in Edinburgh for 1868 on Scotlands People. Not showing on Family Search which is a pity as this would be a quick way to confirm parents. No idea if this is connected though. Helen could also have had the baby elsewhere but gone on to die in an Edinburgh hospital.
Monica
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:-\ Ignore the ref to an Edinburgh 1868 birth, I think it is likely this one here https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQSN-SXJ (not sure why I didn't see this first time round :P).
Monica
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Monica
thanks but it could not be Elizabeth - born June - Helen died in May
Harry
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Helen's cause of death was actually 'Inflamation of Womb after delivery 10 days'.
Annette
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Have found the marriage but it's somewhat bizarre.
Hellen Turnbull married David Alexander 29/6/1863 Edinburgh - she is shown as aged 20, daughter of Robert Turnbull and Janet Aitken and he is shown as aged 22, Private 25th. Foot, address Edinburgh Castle, son of John Alexander, Gardener, and Susan (formerly Scott).
I could not find any service records for a David Scobie but when I looked under David Alexander found him no problem. He enlisted 30/3/1863 at Edinburgh Castle (discharged 1882) and was bc.1840 Leeds, Yorkshire. When he enlisted he was a gardener, like his father.
So, why on earth is she shown as Scobie when she died, wife of David Scobie, when his surname was actually Alexander?
Annette
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Annette
you are a star - I just do not understand this either but this sideof the family has caused me problems galore (and a bit of cash)
many many thanks
Harry
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Annette, that was a great find. Well done with that!
Monica
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I totally agree with you Monica.
How you managed it Annette I do not know. All I have to do now is find the birth !
Harry
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In the end it was easy. As I was getting nowhere with a David Scobie I wondered whether they'd possibly been some kind of transcription error with the surname Decided to do a search (on familysearch) for a Helen Turnbull who married in Edinburgh between 1861 (when still single) and 1868 and discovered the marriage to a David Alexander. Had a few odd credits left on SP so decided to look at the certificate and all the details apart from his surname were correct. (Mind you, if they'd married elsewhere I probably wouldn't have found it).
With no likely David Scobie on Army service records this time I looked for David Alexander and there he was.
Annette
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The plot thickens. I cannot find a David nor his parents John and Susan (Scott) in any census. I know David went abroad to Ceylon in 1863 until1868 and then to East Indies 1868 to 1882. Back home to hospital in 1882 and discharged in 1883.
Cannot find him in either births for Leeds/Yorks nor can I find any birth in 1868 under his name, although if he was abroad he was not necessarily the father!!!
All Januarys budget now used up Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh
Anyway - Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year to you all :D :) ;D ;) :) ;D :D
Harry
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will have to admit defeat on this line. I just cannot see a birth/death for a child in 1868 to Helen. Her address on her DC is Burnets Close, High Street, Edinburgh and it is her sister Margaret Robson who is the informant. How Margaret got the name Scobie as Helens husband who knows. It does not look like David Alexander came back to the UK after leaving for Ceylon in 1863. Cannot find him in the 1891 census either. Also no trace of his parents or him in any census.
Oh dear another mystery
Harry
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Hi
I've just been reading this thread and wonder if the child might have been still born/miscarrriage. In this case there would be no birth or death registration at that time.
brevitas
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Thanks Brevitas
I wondered if this was the case but was not aware that there would be no registration
H
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This is getting most bizarre - have found David Alexander's death:
21/5/1887 Royal Infirmary, Edinburgh - David Alexander 45 Agricultural Labourer, Army Pensioner - usual residence 6 Brown Street Lane (?)
Married 1st - Elizabeth -------- (left blank)
Married 2nd - Mary Malcolm, formerly Reeking (? - some of the writing is difficult to read)
Parents John Alexander, Gardener (deceased) and Susan Storrie(or Starrer? - hard to read) Alexander, formerly Scobie (deceased).
Died of Acute Pneumonia - informant was wife Mary Alexander.
I then looked for marriage to Mary Malcolm and found it 10 (?) January 1884 in Edinburgh - this time father is named as before, deceased, and mother Susan Alexander formerly Starrer (?), deceased.
Clearly the right man but his mother's details vary slightly from certificate to certificate. Presumably the 1st marriage shown to an Elizabeth should be Helen Turnbull but perhaps 2nd. wife didn't know precise details.
All the various documents involved in this saga indicate he was born 1839 to 1842.
His second wife was only 30 when they married so wonder if they had any children between 1884 and 1887.
Annette
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Annette, from what you are finding. One further possibility regarding David's parentage. It may be that Susan, mother, and John Alexander were unmarried? As you know, often with illegitimate children, they went by both mother and reputed father's surnames (might explain David's use of Scobbie and Alexander?).
Was Susan's maiden name Scobbie or Starrer/Storrie I wonder, then married under the other surname (as you found for example on David's 1887 death entry (Parents John Alexander, Gardener (deceased) and Susan Storrie(or Starrer? - hard to read) Alexander, formerly Scobie (deceased).). Just some guesses really at this stage... :-\
Monica
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Hi :)
Just popping in to say that mother's ms on his death cert is Scobie. Snip attached
I read it as Susan Storrie Alexander M.S Scobie
brevitas
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Just throwing this into the ring - I realise that it doesn't fit with a Leeds birth but could this possibly be the family in 1841:
15 Kirkgate, Perth
John Scobie, 25, clerk
Susan, 20
David, 2 mths
All b. County
It could be that John Alexander was Susan's second husband and names, etc. got confused in the telling!
I've not followed this family through to check - got to go off for a while.
brevitas
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Well done, Brevitas - I think that is them.
Familysearch shows the marriage of a John Scobie to Susan Storar 24/5/1840 Kinnoul, Perth.
Her surname is too much like the Storrie/variants for it not to be.
Annette
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Hurray, a further breakthrough!
Storrie has sooooo many variants. I think that marriage that you found Annette looks a big possibility for Brevitas' 1841 census entry.
How do we link this to a Yorkshire born David to fit with his details we have so far though :-\ Not sure what has been found so far for David re his military service (Harry, you have a lot of dates re his service). Where and when did he enlist?
Also, although it all feels so right in respect of names, we would have to think that David showing on that Perth census entry from Brevitas was the son of a John Scobie, a clerk? Marriage date of 1840 and then David's birth early 1841 pre census all seem to fit.
Love puzzles don't we, next step??? ;D
Monica
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This birth entry from family search https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQ71-FB5
Right area for later events...
Monica
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;D I think it has all been lost in the translation:
David Alexander Scobie - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X172-ZJV
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This would appear to David's baptism:
David Alexander Scobie b.16/3/1841, bp.28/3/1841 Perth, son of John Scobie and Susan Storrer.
So after all that, there wasn't even a John Alexander at all - it was just his secod name.
Annette
(Damn thing wouldn't post - however, agree with MonicaL.)
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The transcripts have let us down, boo!
From SP 1861, as the transcript is ::)
Charles Will 40, tailor b. Gathvie, Perthshire
Helen Will 48 b. Gathvie, Perthshire
Helen Paterson 12 grandchild b. Edinburgh
John Trabbic 52...aka John Scobie ::) gardener, visitor, b. Parish Nk, Perthshire
Susan Trabbic 43...aka Scobie, visitor, b. Parish Nk, Perthshire
Hanah Mcglashan 50, visitor, b. Parish Nk, Perthshire
Susan Trabbic...aka Scobie, 1 visitor, b. Edinburgh
Address: 1 Browns Court, Canongate
Monica
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Little Susan born 1860 died it seems from the index (mother showing as Storrer) in 1865 in Canongate :-\ Both parents still alive and still living at Brown's Court in Canongate.
Can't easily see the death of mother Susan in Scotland with the names we have :-\
Monica
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Transcribed as Scobbie on another site.
Annette
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1851 Census - New Row, Perth
Hannah Storer Widow 42 Milliner b. Perth, Perthshire
John Scobie 46 Gardener ditto
Susan Storer 30 ditto
David Scobie 10 ditto
So, as happens in Scotland time and time again, Susan shown under her maiden name even though married.
I'm wondering if David Alexander Scobie had something to hide - why enlist and marry as Alexander (not Scobie) and why state he was born in Leeds, England when he was born in Perth.
Something decidedly fishy methinks.
Annette
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Hannah from 1851 maybe a sister to Susan? She also showed as a widow in 1861 as McGlashan.
Why can't we (I!!) find Susan's death I wonder?
Monica
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1871 John and Susan are lodgers in Edinburgh Canongate - surname transcribed on one site as Stobber (Susan shown as Susan Storn Stobber).
Annette
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By 1881 John Scobie has died - Susan is in St. Cuthberts Poorhouse, Edinburgh as Scobbie - gardeners widow.
Annette
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Oh dear - no proof* whatsover (apart from the gardener bit) :
Death - Apri l3 1893, St Cuthberts Poorhouse, Edinburgh
Susan Scobbie, pauper, widow of --- Scobbie, gardener. Aged 77. No parents' given. Senile Debility.
Informant was Assistant Governor of the Poorhouse
*Added - also what Annette has found in previous posting :)
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Have we got this:
Death 31 July 1877 John Scobbie, gardener.Aged 77. Married to Susan Storrer. St Cuthberts Poorhouse, Edinburgh
Parents - David Scobbie, Fisherman and Janet, m.s. Irvine, both deceased.
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No, we didn't have that previously. Given first born son David's name, looks likely don't you think?
Also saw the following. If we think that Hannah McGlashan/Storrar may be a possible sister to Susan, there is this possible entry https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FM9Y-XKM
At a guess, could David born 1841 have been called after both grandfathers (David and Alexander)?
Monica
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Helen died 16 May 1868 in Edinburgh Maternity Hospital cause ? of heart after delivery 10 days.
I just cannot see a birth/death for a child in 1868 to Helen.
Don't forget that if the baby was born dead there would not be a birth or death certificate.
Have the records of the Edinburgh Maternity Hospital survived? If I were you I would contact Lothian Health Board Archives http://www.lhsa.lib.ed.ac.uk/
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Hi Forfarian - think you might have missed this:
Hi
I've just been reading this thread and wonder if the child might have been still born/miscarrriage. In this case there would be no birth or death registration at that time.
brevitas
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Have we got this:
Death 31 July 1877 John Scobbie, gardener.Aged 77. Married to Susan Storrer. St Cuthberts Poorhouse, Edinburgh
Parents - David Scobbie, Fisherman and Janet, m.s. Irvine, both deceased.
Marriage/Banns showing for David Scobbie and Janet Irvine in Perth on 19 August 1791
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Hi Forfarian - think you might have missed this:
You are quite right. I did indeed miss it.
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It would be interesting to see if there are any poorhouse records &/or applications for poor relief forms available to view.
flst
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Hurray, a further breakthrough!
How do we link this to a Yorkshire born David to fit with his details we have so far though :-\ Not sure what has been found so far for David re his military service (Harry, you have a lot of dates re his service). Where and when did he enlist?
He enlisted on 30 March 1863 at Edinburgh Castle
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So,perhaps, should be in Scotland for the 1861 census, although as we have seen, not with parents.
The closest I can see is this entry for 1861:
John Simpson 50, Dairyman & Coal Agent, b. Barony
Margt Simpson 48 b. Dunkeld, Perthshire
Mary Simpson 21
James Simpson 19
Margt Anne Simpson 1??
Janet Simpson 14
Isabella Simpson 12
Amelin Simpson 10
Charles Simpson 8
David Scobie 19, Lawyers General Clerk, cousin b. Perthshire
Address: 12 Bath Street, Blythswood Glasgow
Can't easily see entries on FamilySearch to try and check on mother Margaret Simpson's maiden name....although, sometimes terms like 'cousin' are used losely!
Monica
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This is getting most bizarre - have found David Alexander's death:
21/5/1887 Royal Infirmary, Edinburgh - David Alexander 45 Agricultural Labourer, Army Pensioner - usual residence 6 Brown Street Lane (?)
Married 1st - Elizabeth -------- (left blank)
Married 2nd - Mary Malcolm, formerly Reeking (? - some of the writing is difficult to read)
Parents John Alexander, Gardener (deceased) and Susan Storrie(or Starrer? - hard to read) Alexander, formerly Scobie (deceased).
Died of Acute Pneumonia - informant was wife Mary Alexander.
I then looked for marriage to Mary Malcolm and found it 10 (?) January 1884 in Edinburgh - this time father is named as before, deceased, and mother Susan Alexander formerly Starrer (?), deceased.
Clearly the right man but his mother's details vary slightly from certificate to certificate. Presumably the 1st marriage shown to an Elizabeth should be Helen Turnbull but perhaps 2nd. wife didn't know precise details.
All the various documents involved in this saga indicate he was born 1839 to 1842.
His second wife was only 30 when they married so wonder if they had any children between 1884 and 1887.
Annette
Susan Storer Alexander born Newington 21 December 1885 fits the bill exactly
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Anyone researching the Storer family in the city of Perth around 1820?
Mike
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Anyone researching the Storer family in the city of Perth around 1820?
Mike, do your Storers in 1820 have any connection to Helen Turnbull etc? If not, you might be better to start a new thread, otherwise people might not notice that you are looking for Storers.
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Thanks for the advice. I knew of this particular, STORER but thought someone on this thread might have some more information about her.