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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: pazz12345 on Friday 04 January 13 16:42 GMT (UK)
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Would ww1 motorcycle despatch riders be known as sapper or as dvr
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Most despatch riders were RE Signals - so Sapper could well be used. However, the REs also used 'Driver' - no idea if they applied it to dispatch riders. What does his medal roll index card say?
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i think you`ll find they were drivers as my gt grandad was one,,,,
maybe it depended on their regiment, my gt grandad was in the R,F,A...... nancy
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Hi
Thank you for your input unfortunately i have not found his medal card yet i only have his year of birth 1883 and that he was born south wales and passed away in 1945 i keep digging and every now and again i find a little more again
thank you
Simon
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Hi
In WW1 all motorcycle despatch riders were members of Royal Engineers Signal Companies. Whatever their previous experience, they were immediately promoted to Corporal, even on the day that they joined the Army. This was because despatch riders had to be able to speak directly to officers, and the military rules of the day prevented "rankers" (eg, Privates, or Drivers or Sappers).
I'm making a study of the WW1 despatch riders, and if you post your relative's details, I may be able to help you find details of his career.
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Hi thankyou for the information . Unfortunatly i do not have his date of birth i know he was born in south wales in 1883 and died in rochdale lancashire in december 1945 after serving with the east lancashire regiment. I have 5 photos of him in uniform two he has ASC cap badge and lanyard on left shoulder these were taken in baulford camp. One photo is from a motorcycle magazine in france on a triumph. one of him sat on a chair with R E cap badge taken in france ? and the last one of him in east lancs uniform ww2. his name was robert thomas williams thanks again simon
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Hi Simon
Thanks for the message. I can't immediately identify his medal rolls index card though I will keep looking - I imagine it was you who also posted two of these pics on Ancestry?
Unfortunately it can be very difficult to identify relatives unless their name has some uncommon feature. Sometimes it is possible to trace a relative in the 1911 or 1901 Census by searching on the name of brother or sister with an uncommon name! eg one of my great grandfathers named his sons Thomas, Mark, Henry and Elijah - it was pretty easy to trace Elijah and the rest followed!
The photo with the Triumph motorcycles is particularly interesting - I've asked a vintage vehicle expert whether he can date the photograph by the vehicles. Do you know any more about who the people are? The motorcyclists are certainly Royal Engineers despatch riders, all corporals and all wearing the correct two tone armband.
best wishes
Nick
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Hello Nick
The photo of the motorcycles is from a motorcycle magazine from the day.I now have this in my possesion (The Motorcycle ) it is dated Thursday November 2nd 1916.The picture is entitled "Signal section in a French market square" then :- An interesting official photograph of the Indian Army Corps signals,lorries cars and motorcyclists on their way to the front. The picture well shows the fit state of the men,who are mounted on W.D. Triumphs, the officers having singer light cars.The Triumphs were named model H which was a 550cc engine made from 1915 to 1926.
If you look at the pictures on my other thread (WW1 Motorcycle Despatch Rider) you will be able to see the men in the photo from the Army Service Corps which was taken at Bulford Camp are also in the photo of the bikes and trucks.
Robert married Bertha Agnes Fisher who was from Lytham Saint Annes near Blackpool(not yet found marrage certificate) and had their first child in 1925 which states he was a cotton mill engineer and on my mothers birth certificate he is down as a plumber.This is also my chosen profession to which i didn't know until i started this search i am also a motorcyclist with a love of classic motorcycles such as triumphs BSA etc etc.
Thank you Simon
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Hi Simon
thanks for your post - are you identifying the men at Bulford Camp with the motorcyclists in the picture in France? I can see some resemblances but it would be very exciting if your grandad was one of the men in the group picture!
regards
Nick
ps I'll reply again when I've heard from my vintage vehicle expert - pleased to hear you're into bikes, as you might guess I'm into vintage Sunbeams!!
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Hi Simon
I've now heard back from my vehicle expert - in his opinion the motorcycles are either 1913 or 1914 models (some of each). In our research we've already established that there was a mixture of motorcycles in use, some of which were supplied by the owner.
I'm going to the National Archives at Kew in a few weeks and I'm excited to discover that the Indian Army Corps signals War Diary from September 1914 to October 1915 is available. That means, if it is complete, I will be able to identify all the French towns which the unit passed through, and thus I hope I will be able to determine exactly when and where the photograph was taken.
I've looked again what you said about the ASC photograph - I think I got confused, and realise that this is not the same men as the motorcycles picture.
I've also looked again in the medals cards but I'm afraid I drew a blank. It's the penalty of sharing a name. (Meanwhile I've also been researching the one and only Thomas Brabazon Lambert Disney - not too many of those!)
regards
Nick
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Hi Nick thank you it would be great if they had mentioned the photo in their records and if i knew where it was taken I could make a trip there which would be great thanks again simon
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:D
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Hi nick did you manage to find any info about the photo thanks simon
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Hi Simon
I'm going next week!
cheers, Nick
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:)
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Hi Simon, I'm very I didn't make it to TNA - ill-health, I'm afraid. Will probably go in June, it's very frustrating because I had a lorra lorra documents I was going to look at!! Nick
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Hi Nick
Thankyou for letting me know and i hope you get better very soon
simon
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:)
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I have now found out Robert Thomas Williams date of birth from the 1939 register it is 20/04/1885 not 1883 as previously posted and now armed with this I have contacted historical disclosures in Glasgow. They have told me that they have records for him as a lancashire fusilier in ww2 and that his ww1 could possibly be attached to it. Here's hoping they have also said they are running at 9 to 12 months before I would get them :( . Also on the 1939 register is his occupation as ... corporal Williams S.R.T No D.C.B Coy Att L.F D/14057 any help on this would be good thanks simon
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Hi Simon
thanks for the message, note all you say, and add that I've now rebooked my visit to TNA for end of July/beginning of August.
cheers
Nick
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Hi there
I had a very successful visit to TNA - looked at more than a dozen war diaries of Signals units and nearly 100 personal files of despatch riders. There's some fascinating information there, I'm still in the process of entering all the data into my database so I can work out what it all means!
The relevant diaries for the purpose of identifying the Indian Army unit in the photograph were WO 95/3919 Lahore Division Signal Company and WO 95/393 Meerut Division Signal Company. As I frequently found elsewhere, the recording by officers of similar units varied tremendously - some officers wrote long and detailed entries while others wrote the bare minimum.
The Lahore Division landed at Marseilles on 30th September 1914 and went by train to Toulouse, and thence by train to Argenton and Orleans where they were in camp from 2nd to 16th October. On 17th and 18th October they went by train to Boulogne, then Calais and St Omer. The stopping point for 17th and 18th October was written as BLENDECOUVES but I think must have been BLENDECQUES, which is a town near St Omer.
Over the following days they went by road to the Front through the following towns:
HALLINES; LYNDES; BAILLEUIL; ESTAIRES; LOCON; LEVANTIE; LE TOURET
In my opinion the photograph was probably taken in one of those destinations. I've looked at Blendecques and Estaires on Google StreetView and the architecture is very reminiscent of the photograph.
If the town survives, I think we have a good chance of identifying it - I expect the names of the shops will certainly have changed but it is quite distinctive with two four bay buildings looking onto a square with room for the Signals company and the photographer on the opposite side of the square. Have a look for yourself!
regards
Nick
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Hi Nick
that is great news I have already been looking at the buildings and as you say they are distinctive with the 4 windows.
Thanks for the info if I find anything I will post it
Thanks again simon
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Hello again
I stumbled across more information about your photograph this morning - a stereoscopic version of the picture (showing the upper storeys) is now on UK ebay at no 231178222343
I made some further enquiries and discovered that the original photograph is one of 167 photographs taken by Dr Birdwood, an official photographer, to be found in the India Office Library at the British Library in St Pancras
this picture is Photo 21/(95) captioned "Motor-lorries and cycles of the Indian Army Corps' Signallers packed in the main square at Merville".
Wikipedia tells us that Merville was completely destroyed but a glance at Streetview shows that there is still a large central square, and I imagine this is where the picture was taken
best wishes!
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I have just received my grandfathers first world war things. This includes 3 medals. 1914 star, British war medal and the Victory medal. From documents I also have I know he joined the Lancashire Fusiliers. He enlisted on 6th march 1908 and passed the mounted Infantry after 4 months training on the 1st of october 1912. He went overseas 23rd August 1914. I have include a photograph on his bike. Can anyone I.D. it? I have most of his 3rd class education certificate and the armband he is wearing signifies he was a corporal. He documentation says he was in the Royal Engineers 4th division signal corps. He served until 5th of March 1920. Any tips to find out where he was. I know he had the 4 blue chevrons and one red so he served right through the war. My picture will not load. I can email it if anyone wants.
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Hello John & welcome.
go to the main WW1 page & post this as a new topic. That way more people will see it.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/world-war-one/
To add a photo you need to make sure it's under 500Kb. filesize as this is the max. on here, also give it a unique name as all filenames are stored.
The date + initials or some such.
It would help if you gave us Grandad's name & no.
In the meantime some info. on the 4th. Div.
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/4th-division/
& 4 Div. Signals:
4th Divisional Signals Company, The Royal Engineers provided communications for 4th Division. 4th Division was held back from the original British Expeditionary Force by a last minute decision to defend Britain against a possible German landing. The fate of the BEF in France and the lack of any move by the Enemy to cross the channel, reversed this decision and they proceeded to France in late August 1914 They were in action at the The Battle of the Marne, The Battle of the Aisne and at The Battle of Messines in 1914. In 1915 they fought in The Second Battle of Ypres. Between the 5th of November 1915 and 3 February 1916, 12th Brigade were attached to 36th (Ulster) Division, providing instruction to the newly arrived Division. In 1916 moved south and were in action during the Battles of the Somme. In 1917 they were at Arras, in action during the The First and Third Battles of the Scarpe, before heading north for the Third Battle of Ypres, where they fought in The Battle of Polygon Wood, The Battle of Broodseinde, The Battle of Poelcapelle and The First Battle of Passchendaele. In 1918 they were in action on The Somme, then returned to Flanders fighting in the Defence of Hinges Ridge during The Battle of Hazebrouck and in The Battle of Bethune, The Advance in Flanders The Second Battles of Arras, the Battles of the Hindenburg Line and the Final Advance in Picardy. The 4th Division was demobilised in Belgium in early 1919.
4 Signals was split up into 4 sections. 1 & 2 were attached to 11 Bde. & 3 & 4 to 10 Bde. They arrived France 22/8/14 & headed for St.Quentin via Rouen to cover the retreat from Mons. Arriving there on the 25th.
By the ned of the month they were at Trosly-Breuil, on the R. Aisne.
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I'm making a study of the WW1 despatch riders, and if you post your relative's details, I may be able to help you find details of his career.
Hi - I've just registered, and as I'm trying to find out more about my grandpa, I was wondering if you could help?! As far as I know, he was a despatch rider, who was injured (as I understand, many of them were...) and returned to duty afterwards as a staff car driver. He survived the war and lived until 1971. I've seen a picture of him in uniform, standing by his motorcycle, but I haven't seen the picture in ages - I wish I knew what has become of it! I have found a copy of his war medal record though, so I know he served with the RASC, and the record shows his regimental number as M2 104238 and also that his rank was first, private, then corporal, which chimes with the comment made up thread. I'd love to find out more about him and am currently wading through boxes of family photos to try and find the picture of him and his 'bike. I've read a couple of books recently, written by Great War despatch riders, including WHL Watson's Adventures of a Motorcycle Despatch Rider, which is full of detail of their day to day existance and I almost felt I was there! It must have been grim, especially when you realise that the enemey would deliberately target the riders, cos of their strategic importance - very often the only way staff knew what on earth was going on was if a rider got through to tell them! The book reveals what a ghastly existance it must have been - no wonder my grandpa seldom talked about the war...
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Hello & welcome
You've put this on the end of an old post. So more will see it you need to start a new topic by clicking the World War One page at the top of this page & then click on new topic then just copy & paste.
I can't see a pension or service record for him but around 70% of these were destroyed in WW2.
As ASC were Div. Troop you need to know which Div. he was with.
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Hello Nick,
I know your posts relating to the WW1 dispatch riders were a few years ago now but I would love to pick your brains a bit about your research, as I'm just starting to investigate the same thing. I'm planning a trip to the archives tomorrow and would love any pointers - would you mind me asking your advice on few things?
Thank you in advance!
Hannah
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Dear Hannah
I'm still very active in my research - my brother and I published Two Wheels to War (Helion Press) earlier this year. It is an expanded edition of WHL Watson's Adventure of a Despatch Rider - it is illustrated with photographs taken by Watson's colleagues and includes biographies of the 5th Signals despatch riders and other men mentioned in the book. It also includes extensive extracts from letters and diaries written by the 5th Signals men and chapters on the men and their machines. Search for the book on Amazon or Bookfinder if you want to find more.
If you post what you are looking for at the archives, I'd be happy to help and advise on what to look for.
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Hi Nick,
Thank you so much for your reply. Your book looks absolutely perfect, I'll order a copy of it first thing tomorrow!
Essentially I'm looking for a story to tell about a specific motorcycle dispatch rider/one particular journey - so I'm interested in anyone who had an out-of-the-ordinary dispatch mission (either the route itself or because something of particular interest happened to them along the way). Or - and this may not be possible - if we know of a particularly important message that was carried by motorcycle dispatch, and I could follow the route of that.
It looks like your book will certainly be great step in the right direction - are there any other sources you think I ought to look into?
(By the way, is there a way I might be able to email you directly? Or is it best to chat on here?)
Best wishes and thank you again,
Hannah
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I'm sure you'll enjoy the book - there are lots of anecdotes, etc
What got you started on the topic? Do you have any connections with despatch riders? or motorcycling?
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Hello Nick,
I'm doing some research for a television production company who are looking into whether there's a potential programme in there somewhere - it's such an interesting angle to look at the war I'm really hoping there's something I can find.
Would you mind if I contacted you again once I've had a look at your book, perhaps?
Hannah
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Hi Hannah
You can reach me and Martin (we are brothers as well as co-authors) on twowheelstowar@gmail.com.
When we started the research we had a vision that the material could lead to a television treatment as well as the book that we produced.
You won't be surprised to learn that we think there are many angles which the television production company might want to explore!
best wishes
Nick