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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: martindolton on Thursday 10 January 13 15:26 GMT (UK)
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My maternal grandfather Francis (Frank) Alston Hole married again in 1937 at Dartford, Kent, and his second wife Nellie (sometimes known as Beatrice) A Hole (maiden name Rose) died in 1961.
In spite of researches in various directions, i.e BMD, I seem totally unable to locate Francis Alston Hole's death.
Martin (Dolton)
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born in 1871 Milton Dist?
any idea if he died before Nellie ?
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born in 1871 Milton Dist?
any idea if he died before Nellie ?
If this is your man I can see a death for a Frank HOLE on BMD in Dec 1956, aged 86 in Surrey NE district.
Does this fit? If so there is an entry on the National Probate Calendar giving an address at the time of 1 Church Lane, Wallington, Surrey
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To Lostris,
Yes, Francis Alston Hole was born on the 26th September, 1871 at Milton, Sittingbourne, Kent.
I have no idea whether he died before or after Nellie Alston Hole whom he married in 1937 and Nellie's death as mentioned was in 1961.
Martin
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Is it to Lostris, as I am unable to see another name.
I think without turning up the records that I have the 1956 death certificate on which he was described as a gardener.
I will revert, but my matenal grandfather wa a Stock Jobber.
Martin
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theres 3 or 4 Frank Hole's born c1871 deaths - check FreeBMD, using the field where you can enter birth year range @1869-1873 for eg.
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To Lostris,
I know the exact date and birth of Francis Alston Hole, as I have his birth certificate.
It is his death I am unable to trace.
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Sorry Lostgris,
I have thoroughly checked the BMD to the best of my ability and not found Francis (Frank) Austin Hole's death. All I know is that he must have died after 1937 when he remarried.
Regards,
Martin'
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Although great progress has been made with the transcriptions on FreeBMD the coverage charts show that there are still gaps between 1950 and 1969.
Where was Nellie living when she died? Who registered her death? Have you looked for an obituary or death announcement in the local paper? It may mention if she survived her husband.
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To Lostris,
I know the exact date and birth of Francis Alston Hole, as I have his birth certificate.
It is his death I am unable to trace.
I'm aware that its his death index you seek - my ref to his YoB was because in FreeBMD theres a useful filter you can use when searching for Deaths ....
So have you eliminated all Fran* A* Holes in the Index born between say 1868 & 1873 ?
I saw a couple of Alston names in the index - both forenames (search by prefixing forename with '*') & double barrelled surname, so I guess related ...
Ancestry hosts the FULL index (up to 2005) as well as the FreeBMD version - the search engine is not as sophisticated, but one can tweak using wildcards....
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Could he have emigrated?
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To Lostris
I have looked at the 1956 death certificate that I have, but it is not my maternal grandfather, it is that as I thought of a retired gardener.
I am not quite certain why you are asking have I eliminated all Fran* A* Holes in the Index born between say 1868 & 1873 when I am looking for his death. Obviously I am being dense here, and I have never fully understood about wild cards.
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To Bearkat
Nellie was living in Dartford when she died, and that is where she married my maternal grandfather.
I do not know the answers as to who registered her death? No, I have not ooked for an obituary or death announcement in the local paper as it may mention if she survived her husband.
Where do I find out what the local paper in Darftord was in 1961?
Martin
I don't think he emigrated as I have looked at the outgoing emigration, I think on Findmypast site, but maybe I did this incorrectly
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I am not quite certain why you are asking have I eliminated all Fran* A* Holes in the Index born between say 1868 & 1873 when I am looking for his death.
Hi Martin
The death indices record the quarter that the death was registered I.e. Dec 1962 and the age at death. If we can agree on the date of birth we can then eliminate many of the other deaths in the records.
Hope that helps
Peter
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Hello Peter,
My maternal grandfather's date of birth was 26th September 1871 at Milton, Sitingbourne, Kent, but as you know it is the date of his death I am trying to find out.
Martin
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Was Nellie living in the town of Dartford when she died or just within the Dartford district? Do you have a burial for her? If it was a burial rather than a cremation it may be that Frank is buried with her perhaps? Or maybe even buried with his first wife?
Nellie's death certificate may state whether she was a widow or not. Purchasing certificates can be expensive but if all else fails it may be worth thinking about. Do you have any addresses for them at all?
Casalguidi :)
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Hello Casalguidi
The BMD says Death: Dartford, Kent ,England Jan-Feb-Mar 1961.
I think you right I will have to obtain a death certificate, but if it doesn't show anything of any use. How am I going to find the death of Francis (Frank) Alston Hole?
My maternal grandmother also remarried, so Francis was not buried with her, and anyway she was cremated.
I have no applicable addresses whatsoever.
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Hi Martin
I've been thinking about this one. Your grandfather was obviously a man of means at some point and I'm not sure that the Ancestry emigration records cover English Channel sailings. Is it possible that he lived and died somewhere on the continent? Given the turmoil of WW2 and reconstruction afterwards, maybe France, Switzerland, Italy?
Did he have any siblings? Maybe tracing them might find you a living distant cousin with knowledge?
Peter
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HelloPeter,
Yes, he did have some siblings, but to the best of my knowledge, when I have been able to find them they have predeceased him.
Martin
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The BMD says Death: Dartford, Kent ,England Jan-Feb-Mar 1961
The registration district of Dartford covers quite a few parishes so unless you know that she was actually living in Dartford town at the time of her death it would be difficult to suggest a newspaper to search for any obituary http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/dartford.html
The burial registers for Dartford are online at Medway Cityark - follow the link to Cityark Imagebase in the left hand menu and then scroll down to the "Way of Death" project. I had a quick look but couldn't see her in any of the Dartford Cemeteries http://cityark.medway.gov.uk/
If she was living in the Bexley area then it could be that she was cremated at Eltham Crematorium but I couldn't see her in the index http://www.deceasedonline.com/
As you mention not having any addresses can we assume that you don't have the marriage certificate for Francis A HOLE to Nellie? As this took place in the Gravesend registration district we should expect to find it on the Kent Registration Services site which would give us more of an idea where the marriage was .......... unfortunately it is not in the index http://extranet3.kent.gov.uk/sp/rois/home.html
Many of the marriages in the parish churches of Gravesend and Milton are online at Medway Cityark - I had a quick look (you may like to look if you haven't already done so) but couldn't see anything. Follow the link to Parish Registers Online in the left hand menu http://cityark.medway.gov.uk/
Are you absolutely certain that this marriage is for your Frank and that the later death of Nellie A HOLE is the wife or widow of said Frank? I notice you mention her sometimes being names Beatrice, may we ask the source of this information?
What is you actual last confirmed sighting of Frank? The latest I could find is what appears to be a court case in 1915.
Casalguidi :)
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I am not repling in any correct order
On the 1901 Census RG 13/811 Florence Beatrice Rose was shown as living with her grandmother and age was shown as 1 which accords with her date of birth of 1900, the exact date which at the moment I have mislaid.
the 1911 census she was shown as Florence Rose aged 11. How she became toi be called Nellie I have not a clue.
I noticed on many of Findmypast records she is shown as Nellie
Regarding the marriage, Nellie Rose definitely married Francis A Hole, as I found this through theFindmypast marriage finder.
The last sighting literally was around 1931 in an obituary from an unkown Gravesend newspaper where Mr Frank Alston Hole brother of the deceased Mrs Alice Lake was present at the funeral which too place at Higham.
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Try Gravesham Borough Council for a burial of Nellie HOLE, they will check the cemeteries at Gravesend and Northfleet http://www.gravesham.gov.uk/services/advice-and-benefits/deaths,-funerals-and-cremations/family-history-searches
On the 1901 Census RG 13/811 Florence Beatrice Rose was shown as living with her grandmother and age was shown as 1 which accords with her date of birth of 1900, the exact date which at the moment I have mislaid.
the 1911 census she was shown as Florence Rose aged 11. How she became toi be called Nellie I have not a clue.
I noticed on many of Findmypast records she is shown as Nellie
Regarding the marriage, Nellie Rose definitely married Francis A Hole, as I found this through theFindmypast marriage finder.
Florence Beatrice ROSE (dau of Bertie ROSE and Elizabeth Jane RICHARDS) ................ did she not marry Ernest Charles POTTER then? He was a local (Sittingbourne) lad who served in the Royal Navy and died Plymouth. There's also a Nellie Florence ROSE who was born in the area about the same time but she looks to have possibly died in 1919 age 19. Are you sure Nellie's maiden name was ROSE ............. could she have been a widow when she married Francis/Frank HOLE?
Casalguidi :)
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I am becoming Confused of Kent!
Perhaps, I am on to the wrong Rose, and it should be Nellie Florence Rose.
No, she was not a widow when she married my maternal grandfather in 1937, Registration district Gravesend in Jan/Feb/March quarter as Civil Registration event: Marriage from Findmypast shows her as ROSE.
Incidentally, you said the last details you could find about Francis Alston Hole was a court case in 1915, this is when my maternal grandmother divorced him a result of cruelty by the said Francis Alston Hole. I have the divorce papers in my possession.
However, in spite of the marriage in 1937 and the attendance at a funeral in 1931 this is the last that I could find out about my maternal grandfather, and I still do not know where and when he died.
Regarding Nellie Florence Rose' unfortunately I do not have a subscription to Ancestry and Findmypast, and therefore do not have a 1937 marriage certificate or 1900 (birth)/1911 census details of Florence Nellie Rose.
Regards,
Martin
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The 1915 court case referred to Frank Alston HOLE's conviction for stealing a £4,200 cheque from his employers Messrs. Hall and Co. stockjobbers. He was sentenced to six months' imprisonment with hard labour. :o
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That is interesting, as it was before the divorce.
Having found the copy of the Divorce papers, I see all this took place in 1916.
My maternal grandmother having filed Notice and Affidavit for Decree Absolute on the 8th November 1916.
Another rogue in the family,as my great grandfather was declared bankrupt, as was one of his son-in-law, the said Thomas Thompson whose name appears on another board.
Of course I am still looking for the death of Francis (Frank) Alston Hole and anything relating to his marriage to Nellie Florence Rose and her death in 1961.
Martin
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As Frank had been divorced his marriage would have been in a Register Office so it will not be included in the online records of Medway Cityark. I doubt there would be a write-up about the marriage in the local paper. The only way to find out further details would be to purchase the certificate.
Where was he after his divorce? Did he serve in WW1?
It's odd that there is no sign of his death. I can only think that he died unidentified, he changed his name or he emigrated. ???
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Francis (sometimes known as Frank) Alston Hole, was last known of in l931 at a funeral, and then again on his remarriage to Nellie Florence Hole in 1937.
As he was born in 1871, he would have been 43 at the time of WW1 so I doubt that he served in it.
I have been unable to find any emigration recorded on Ancestry's outgoing passenger list, unless I have missed it. I have found details of two of various children. The third was my mother who definitely didn't come and go.
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and then again on his remarriage to Nellie Florence Hole in 1937.
Are you sure this is him though? How do you know it is him? Did somebody in the family tell you he remarried? I only ask as there are other Francis/Frank HOLEs who it could have been.
Similarly the problem with Nellie ROSE who married a Frank/Francis A HOLE in 1937 ............. how do you know her maiden name was ROSE? If a widowed or divorced person remarries then the marriage index usually gives their current name ie. the surname of their late or ex-husband. All the index shows is that she is a Nellie ROSE at the time she was married, the certificate will show whether she was divorced, widowed, hopefully her age, hopefully father's name and occupation and addresses etc. which could be useful if you are sure this is your Frank's marriage. It doesn't say she was a Nellie F(lorence) in the marriage index either nor on the 1961 death registration if it is the same person. Have you contacted Gravesham council regarding a possible burial for one "Nellie A HOLE" in one of their cemeteries? It could be a lead to establishing whether she is connected or not.
In the 1931 funeral report, how is it worded? Does it say that Frank attended or that he sent flowers or that Alice leaves a brother named Frank? Does it say Frank & "whoever"?
We're really trying to help but need to separate the facts from possibles ;)
Casalguidi :)
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The mourners at the funeral were listed as:
Mr. C. Lake
Miss Edith Hole (sister)
Mr. Frank Alston-Hole (brother)
the Misses Corrinne and N. Alston-Hole (nieces)
http://www.uk.mundia.com/gb/Person/7393166/444660451#
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Thank you for finding out about those who attended the funeral in 1931. A pity it is not possible to find the date of this article and the appropriate Gravesend Newspaper.
The nieces mentioned were of course, as they are both dead, my two aunts on my maternal side.
Regarding all the questions about Nellie Florence Rose, I can't prove anything other than Findmypast marriage finder aligned the two together.
The short answer is, I suppose, I must obtain a birth certificate of Nellie Florence Rose, the relevant entries in the 1901 and 1911 census, the marriage certificate to Francis (Frank) Alston Hole and her death certificate.
Unfortunately I don't know how to find out the appropriate reference numbers.
Also where can I find details of the 1901 and 1911 census.
Forgive me, I didn't telephone the Gravesham Council. I tried to sort it out through the website you gave me. However, I don't know whether it is me or what, but I didn't seem to get very far!
Thanks to all for helping me out on this one, long may it continue, until we have the answer.
However the ROSE saga apart, I still don't know how we are going to find the death of Francis(Frank) Alston Hole.
Martin
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The short answer is, I suppose, I must obtain a birth certificate of Nellie Florence Rose, the relevant entries in the 1901 and 1911 census, the marriage certificate to Francis (Frank) Alston Hole and her death certificate.
I don't think there's any point in obtaining a birth certificate or any census for Nellie Florence ROSE or any other ROSE at this point as we're not even certain that the 1937 marriage was for your Frank (although it looks possible) let alone know that ROSE was the maiden name of the person married.
Will think of some suggestions later.
Casalguidi :)
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Edith Ellen HOLE of Old Road East, Gravesend died 25th January 1937 leaving £1211, Francis Alston HOLE (no Occupation).
Corinne Alston HOLE died in 1956, Arthur Henry St John DOLTON and a bank official.
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I would be tempted to order the marriage certificate. This will prove whether or not this is your Frank Alston HOLE.
As it looks likely he was in the Gravesend area it might be worth looking at electoral registers and hopefully tracking him through the years.
You may also be able to find him listed in a street directory.
Gravesend library has a local studies section and may be able to help.
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Reply to Bearkat
I am not quite certain where Edith Ellen Hole comes in to the story, except the year 1937 which is the year Francis (Frank) Hole WAS remarried to a Nellie ROSE, according to Findmypast's Civil Registration event: Marriage which refers to volume 2A page 1653 in the Jan-Feb-Mar quarter.
Sorry, I do follow why these statements came about:
Francis Alston HOLE (no Occupation).
Corinne Alston HOLE died in 1956, Arthur Henry St John DOLTON and a bank official.
Corinne Alston Hole was one of my aunts on the maternal
Arthur Henry St John Dolton was my father, and where does the bank official come in to the story?
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Bearkat
You say that Gravesend Library has a local studies section. Do you have please any e-mail address or telephone number for them. My Yellow Pages are useless.
Thanks in advance,
Martin
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http://www.kent.gov.uk/leisure_and_culture/libraries/online_library_services/ask_a_kent_librarian.aspx
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Edith Ellen HOLE looks to be Frank's sister who died a spinster.
From the National Probate Calendars:
Edith Ellen HOLE of "Springfield", 6 Old Road East, Gravesend a spinster died 25 Jan 1937. Probate was granted to Frank Alston HOLE of no occupation (this means that he was the executor not necessarily sole beneficiary) £1211.
Corinne Elsie Alston HOLE or Corinne Elsie ALSTON-HOLE of 5B Tankerton Road, Whitstable died 18 January 1956 at 48 Almhurst Road, Westbourne, Bournemouth. Probate granted to A H St. J D (company director) and a J D Ellerbick (bank official). £3732
Charles LAKE (husband of Alice thus brother in law to Frank Alston HOLE) died 23 May 1937 of "Springfield", Old Road East, Gravesend. Probate granted to Lancelot Courtney TROUGHTON solicitor and Ralph Nevill RUSSELL retired army captain. £4035.
Gravesend Library http://www.kent.gov.uk/KCC.Libraries.Web.Sites.Public/LibraryDetails.aspx?aid=0&lid=41&uprn=100062311356
They may hold electoral registers but these are in street order thus quite a bit of searching to find somebody if you don't have an address. They may hold street directories which could be a shortcut to the electoral registers as residents are listed in alphabetical order but only list the householder.
Casalguidi :)
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The Edith Ellen Hole was a sister of Francis Alston Hole and was born in 1857 and is on the 1881 census.
Can somebody please straighten me out! Where am I going from all the postings to find the death of Francis (Frank) Alston Hole.
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The fact that Frank was listed as executor for his sister's will implies that he was alive in 1937. This makes the marriage you found to be a likely match - the certificate would confirm it. It may also have an address for him.
There is no easy answer to finding his death since it does not appear in the GRO index. By tracing Frank and following him through the years using street directories and electoral registers you can see when he drops off the radar. Once you have an approximate year of death it might be worth applying to the local register office to search their death records.
You could try searching through all the burial records on Medway Cityark but it will be a long search without knowing which parish he was living in or when he died.
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A general update on the Nellie Alston Hole, née ROSE/Francis(Frank) Alston Hole.
I telephoned the Gravesend library who were very helpful, and said that they would try and locate where and when Nellie Florence Rose and Francis (Frank) Alston Hole were married in 1937.
They also said that the would try and find the death in Dartford in 1961 of Nellie A Hole.
On searching around the Ancestry/Findmypast records, I came across a Frank A Hole on the electoral rolls of Bromley in 1964 and 1965.
However Bromley library were not so helpful and said all their electoral records were by street name which of course I do not know, so I am snookered on that front.
Then on searching further records, I came across a F A Hole who sailed in 1941 from Liverpool to Colombo, end destination Sri Lanka .
I do not know how to prove this is the one and the same chap.
However if it is, and maybe he died in Sri Lanka, which is why perhaps we cannot find his death, how would I trace death records there?
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Interesting update.
There are several Bromley street directories online
http://archive.library.bromley.gov.uk/dserve/Commercialstreetdirectories.htm
but the most recent is 1937.
If this is your man I wonder what he was doing going to Ceylon during the war ???
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I think the F A HOLE that travelled to Sri Lanka was A F HOLE, a naval rating - so not likely to be yours.
I think you have plenty of possible sightings of him but nothing concrete yet ...............
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I really don't know what he is doing in Ceylon if he did go there.
Considering what a rogue he has turned out to be when you look through all the postings, I should think escaping something!!
I am a little bit doubtful about the 1965 and 1966 electoral rolls in Bromley as this would make Francis Alston Hole at least age 94 which was unusual at that time.
At the moment, I really don't know which way to turn to try and find out where my maternal grandfather, last known of in 1937 when he married Nellie Rose, lived and died after 1937.
Martin
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Regarding the court case in 1915, Does anybody know the date and whether Hall & Co the stockjobbers were situated in London
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A lot has happened in the genealogical world since you posted your initial request.
Have you seen the 1939 Register entry for Francis HOLE?
Did you ever find his burial?
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Francis's death is recorded as:
Francis E. Hole bc.1872 death Dec.qtr.1946 Hampstead
Couldn't find a Francis E. born around this time, nor any other sighting of such a person.
Was the 'E' a mistake I wondered and have just checked this on the GRO's own death index that shows full names.
They have it listed as Francis Elston Hole which is clearly the same man.
Annette
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If you decide to purchase the death certificate via GRO remember to apply with his name as Francis Elston Hole which is how they've recorded it - if you put Francis Alston Hole they'd no doubt come back and say it's not the same person.
Annette
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Francis Elston HOLE was buried in Gravesend Municipal Cemetery 22nd October 1946,
aged 74 of 50 Peacock Street
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The 1915 court case referred to Frank Alston HOLE's conviction for stealing a £4,200 cheque from his employers Messrs. Hall and Co. stockjobbers. He was sentenced to six months' imprisonment with hard labour. :o
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I'm still trying to find the source of this. It was 8 years ago......
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The case was reported on 16th January 1915. The hearing took place the Friday before, at London Guildhall.
Another newspaper gives the date as 15th January.
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Do you knop the names of the newspaper please.
Thanks for all your help
Kind regards,
Martin
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Do you knop the names of the newspaper please.
Thanks for all your help
Kind regards,
Martin