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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: BonnieDownUnder on Friday 25 January 13 04:31 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
My 2xggm, Ellen Holmes, died 05 May 1893 at Leadville, near Cassilis, NSW Australia aged 57 years. Her death certificate does not show parents names but it said she was born in the 'New England area' of NSW and she had two (supposedly) husbands, a Mr. Chandler and a James Holmes.
I have not found a marriage registration to a Mr. Chandler but do have her marriage certificate to James Holmes, 09 Apr 1878 at the Congregational Church, Gulgong, NSW. She stated her name as Helen Chandler, widow; no age, place of birth, parents names etc shown but I do know it is her as son-in-law, my great grandfather, was a witness.
Her first child, Georgina Jane (my ggm) was born at Loders Creek near Singleton NSW 22 July 1858. Georgina has two birth certificates, one in the surname of Chandler, the other Burke. (very strange) No father's name shown on either certificates and Helen states she is 20 years of age, born Scone NSW
Helen/Ellen went on to have three more children, using the surname Chandler and no father's name listed. In 1871 she had a son James who died the same year and his surname listed as HOLMES with father James. Then a George Holmes was born 1874 at Gulgong, mother Helen, father James, and an Elizabeth Helen in 1876 with same details. Another possible child, Thomas H. Holmes born c1872 died 1932 at Mudgee, with parents names Ellen and James.
With the registration of her children's birth, their marriage and death certificates, various maiden names for Helen/Ellen have appeared, being Morley, Welch, Delaney, Newham along with Chandler and various birth places, ie Scone, Newcastle, Singleton, Muswellbrook
The best fit I have come up with is a baptismal record for an Ellen Welch 17 Nov 1835 at St Mary's Cathedral - parents James Welch and Ellen Kain ... but it is in Sydney!
Welcome any input ... Bonnie
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Hi Bonnie,
Have you tried contacting the church archives to see if they have the parents' names etc. Here is an excellent thread of advice from JM about gaps on NSW marriage certs http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.msg4001775.html#msg4001775
I was successful in getting a detailed transcription of a cert from the church archives.
regards,
Ros
(adding by the way you have a typo in the title for the birthdate :) )
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Hi Ros, Thanks your reply and link. The Congregational Church in Gulgong closed a long long time ago. I visited the Gulgong Pioneers Museum and Historical Society who are extremely well organised (one of the best Historical Society's I have visited) and very helpful, but unfortunately they didn't have original or copies of the Church's BDM's registry. The Congregational Churches were amalgamated into the Uniting Churches so I contacted the head office but unfortunately they, at the time, told me that they didn't have any records from the Gulgong Church. I hadn't thought about contacting the local Court House, will give it a try. Many thanks. Bonnie
(PS Typo fixed, thanks!)
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Hi Bonnie,
You posted Georgina Jane born at Loders Creek near Singleton in 1858
What years and district were the other Chandler children born?
I was wondering how long it was between the last Chandler birth and first child born as Holmes.
If she was infact a widow when she married Holmes it might help narrow some dates down on when Mr Chandler died. His death cert. might have info on it that might help.
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Since Burke was on one of the cert. i wonder if Ellen/Helen maiden name was actually Burke. Maybe she just lived with Chandler without marrying him.
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Umm what about the Ellen Holmes born 1833. Ref: V1833876 18/1833
I am wildly supposing she never married mr Chandler. But may had his children.
Neil
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GIBLET - Thanks your reply.
Georgina Jane Chandler and Burke b.22 Jul 1858 Loders Creek. Have copy of church record of her marriage and shows father's name 'John Chandler, a drover and mother Helen Morley'. No luck finding births Helen/Ellen Morley or derivations. When she died, no mother's name shown on death certificate and father's name shown as Chandler.
Matilda Charlotte Chandler 08 Dec 1860 Singleton, no father's name; died 1887 no mother or father's name listed.
Emma Chandler 24 Mar 1864 Newcastle, no father's name. Died 1868 Newcastle. Mother Ellen, Father John but don't have that death certificate.
Emilly Chandler born 19 Jan 1869 Newcastle, no father's name. When she married in 1907 she used the surname Holmes and father as James Holmes, mother maiden name Helen Burke with same details on her death certificate 1927
James Holmes born and died 1871 in Newcastle. Father James Holmes, mother Helen both regs.
George Holmes born 09 Jul 1874 Gulgong, father James Holmes, mother Helen nee Chandler. On his death certificate, 1923, father James Holmes, mother Ellen nee Delaney.
Elizabeth Helen Holmes born 14 Nov 1876 Gulgong, father James Holmes, mother Helen nee Welch. When she married, father shown as Alfred Holmes and mother's maiden name as Helene Newham. When she died in 1945, no parents details shown.
Like you said, I also think that she didn't actually marry Mr. Chandler, just lived with him. I also feel that she could of been a 'lady of the night'! ... a few interesting things I have found has lead me to this conclusion.
Have searched under Helen/Ellen Burke and derivations plus the other surnames ... thank heavens NSW BDM's are free to search! ... but if you have any other thoughts, please do let me know.
Thanks Bonnie
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I wouldnt be surprised if Ellen/Helen parents were convicts. She was born mid 1830's. Not that helps any when we cant find her birth. Maybe her birth/baptism wasnt registered.
I'll keep looking and see if anything shows up.
Thanks for the extra info.
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Hi Giblet ... I too wouldn't be surprised if Ellen/Helen parents were convicts. Having looked into the history of the Scone/Singleton area, between 1826 and 1834, 3,000 convicts built the Great North Road into the Hunter Valley area.
Thanks again, I could have missed something on the NSW BDM that you may spot. Bonnie
Hi Neil ... thanks your reply. Yeah, I doubt that she actually married Mr. Chandler but it is figuring out what her birth name (Helen or Ellen) and surname actually was - I reckon if they had a competition on Roots Chat to find who's ancestor had to most surnames, I would win it hands down!
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I think you'd win no problems as well ;D
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Bonnie all these names must be driving you nuts :o
Have you got deaths for John Chandler and James Holmes?
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Bonnie i just found this, see what you think. You might already have seen it.
NSW birth
V1835655 126/1835 WELCH ELLEN
Father JAMES
Mother ELLEN
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I have just also found a marriage for a
V18344532 74B/1834 BURKE JAMES WALSH ELLEN JI
I wonder if this could be your Ellen's parents and that is where the name Burke come from.
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Giblet there is a Convict James Burke born 1789 arrived 1815 on a ship called Canada permission to marry Ellen Walsh on 14th Jan 1834. There is also a tree on Ancestry which I think might be Bonnie's. But has this record says this could not be the right Ellen. Take Care Lynette
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Hello Everyone ... thank you so much for all your latest posts which I will have a look at tomorrow ... I need to give some attention to 'very patient husband who really doesn't want to hear anything more about Helen/Ellen' .... it is our 28th wedding anniversary today ... yeah, Australia Day ... Bonnie
P.S. Gotta tell you that he gave me a very sloppy card and a big bunch of Red Roses ... love the man oodles!
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Hi
This site may Help http://www.jenwilletts.com/search.htm
Muss
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Hi Giblet: Thanks, have the certificate of birth Ellen Welch 1835, V1835 655 126 parents James and Ellen which I thought would be the best fit however the baptism occurred at St. Mary's Cathedral in Sydney and all the evidence so far points to Ellen/Helen being born in the New England district of NSW.
Hi Lynette: Thanks your message. The creator of that family tree is not me but I had been in contact with them sometime ago. Not aware that they had found, and discounted the records you mentioned.
Hi Muss: Thanks the link.
In a nutshell, not really knowing what my 2xgm birth name actually was, though I am swing now more towards it being Ellen or Helen Burke than Welsh or Walsh. Going to once again attempt to see if there is a church record of her marriage to James Holmes 09 Apr 1878 in Gulgong
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Hi Bonnie, Please don't give up yet! This is one interesting search!....Sometime yesterday (prior to my power going off) >:( >:(
I found an interesting name "WELSH" on NSW BDM. This has been corrupted and mispelt several times on various records but may have some bearing on your Ellen/Helen...another corruption.
This is making it difficult to pin down, but if you put that name into the search engine that MUSS has it comes up with a record for an Ellen Walsh/Welsh/Welch. I now need to see if this connects with any of your other many names?
I will keep trying.... Oh yes, HAPPY ANNIVERSARY ;D ;D ;D ;D
Neil
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Hello Neil ...
You seem to be navigating the site MUSS gave far better than me. I keep on going around in circles with the surnames.
Have been seaching for Ellen/Helen for many years and it was only last year that I finally tracked down her death on 06 May 1893. Actually it was sheer fluke that I found it, it all came about with the godmother's name, she was one of Helen/Ellen's daughters, on my father's baptismal certificate and that lead me to another clue, then another and bingo!
thank you thank you so much ... I await with anticipation for your next message. Bonnie
PS Hope the power stays on at your home; we here are having some nice soaking rain and I swear you can see the grass turning from brown to green!
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Hello Bonnie sorry for jumping to conclusions that it was your tree :-X Take Care Lynette
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Hi
Do you have the BCs of the siblings of Georgina ?. Thinking out loud, what is the address given as place of birth ( Newcastle or Suburb) and who was the witness at the births ?
I spent a very long time searching for part of my family ( before cd's and computers) in Newcastle Library only to find they lived in Bolton st Newcastle ( very close to the library) I put the family tree together in 1 day thanks to the reels of the BDMs of Christchurch Cof E. Was Helen/Ellen Cof E ?
My GGGrandmother had named the fathers of her children when they were baptised (some she even stated where the fathers lived)
Muss
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Hi Muss. Thanks your email. As to the children born in Newcastle:
Emma Chandler (illegitimate) 24 Mar 1864 at Perkins Street, Newcastle. The informant (mother) Helen Chandler, Perkins Street, aged 27 years, born Muswellbrook. Nurse and/or Witness, M. Whiteman. Emma died at Newcastle in 1868 but I don't have her death certificate
Emily Chandler (illegitimate) 19 Jan 1869. Address just stated at Newcastle. The Informant (mother) Helen Chandler, aged 31, and her birth place Muswellbrook. Nurse and/or witness, E. Teasdale
James Holmes born and died 1871 Newcastle however both registrations shows father's name as James Holmes.
Georgina Jane b1858 and Matilda Charlotte 1860 both registered at Singleton. On Georgina's birth certificate it shows Helen Chandler, Maiden name Burke aged 20 years born Scone. On Matilda's bc, mother name shown as Helen Chandler (no mention of Burke) aged 24 years born at Muswellbrook.
George Holmes 1874 and Elizabeth Helen Holmes 1876 both born Gulgong.
Don't know what religion Helen/Ellen was; when she finally married James Holmes in 1878 it was at the Congregational Church in Gulgong. When she died in 1893, no Minister nor Religion shown on her death certificate.
As James Holmes not a connection direct to me, I didn't bother buying the birth and/or death certificate/s for James jnr. 1871 ... what's your thoughts, do you think I should?
Thanks Bonnie
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Hi
A little more information
Newcastle West Presbyterian Cemetery ( Cemetery now removed)
Emma Chandler 08/04/1868 age 3
James Holmes 25 /06/1871 age 4 months Son of James Holmes and HELEN WELSH
Muss
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Hi Muss, thanks for that information, terrific. What do you think, should buy death certificates of both of these children to see if there is any further information re parents?
Could I ask another favour, would it pushing a request for you to have a look to see if there are any more burials in the surname of Chandler and Holmes in Newcastle between 1860 and around 1874.
Bonnie
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Hi
The other Holmes in Newcastle West in that time was Hannah age 1 06/01/1866 daughter of
Thomas Holmes and Hannah Payne.
None under the name of Chandler. the other cemeteries may be Honeysuckle, Christ Church, North Waratah ( I think was callled Folly Cemetery) Sandgate opened around the early 1880's.
The DCs may help . Do you know where James Holmes snr was born ?
Muss
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Hi Muss, Sorry I should have mentioned, before asking the previous favour, that I checked the NSW BDM's and the only deaths that come up Chandler and/or Holmes were the two burials you had found but as a thought, we know that the NSW BDM is not a complete listing.
James Holmes senior, died 12 Oct 1907, aged 72 years was shown to have been born in Newcastle, NSW and married there aged 36 years to Ellen Chandler however we know that he and Helen/Ellen actually married in Gulgong 09 Apr 1878 therefore if his age at death is correct, would have been 43 years of age at time of their nuptials. He is buried in the CofE section of Gulgong cemetery, an unmarked grave.
Interestingly, when George Holmes was born 1874 at Gulgong, his father is shown to be 37 years of age, a Miner, born England. On Elizabeth Helen, b1876 Gulgong, father is 41 years of age, a Carpenter, born England. On her birth certificate, Helen maiden name shown as Welch on George's, maiden name Chandler.
Talk about confusing ... going around and around in circles ???
Regards Bonnie
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Hi
On the BDMs deaths Emma's father is listed as JOHN.
There is a marriage in 1856 Scone of a John Chandler and Alice White . I have not found any children born to them.
I wonder if Helen/ Ellen lived with him.
Muss
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COMPLETE SUPPOSITION...BUT ???
Hmm....Ellen Baron Married John Chandler at C of E Montellorus, Wellington District in 1850.
John Chandler Died Warialda District aged 46 ref 5326/1859Children.
JaneV18512419 37A/1851
Richard W 8935/1860 MOLONG
WELLINGTON AND MOLONG ARE QUITE CLOSE.
Don't know how this ties with your workings, but is a possible ::)
Neil
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Sorry meant to put in.
ELLEN BARRON Born V18361212 20/1836 TO RICHARD AND SARAH
Neil
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Death in right area.
RICHARD BARRON, DIED 7106/1866, AGE 60 YEARS, AT WELLINGTON.
Neil
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There is a marriage in 1856 Scone of a John Chandler and Alice White
In 1859 there was a marriage at Scone for Alice CHANDLER.
I wonder if Alice was abandoned by John for Helen/Ellen BURKE?
A James BURKE died suddenly at Scone. Reg. 5853/1863
He was employed for 25 years on a property at Scone owned by the then NSW Minister of Lands who paid for the burial of James BURKE. May have been the father of Helen CHANDLER/HOLMES?
Rhonda
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A James BURKE died suddenly at Scone. Reg. 5853/1863
He was employed for 25 years on a property at Scone owned by the then NSW Minister of Lands who paid for the burial of James BURKE. May have been the father of Helen CHANDLER/HOLMES?
Rhonda
There is some information about this man on Jenn Willett's website "free or felon" posted by MUSS above.
http://www.jenwilletts.com/search.htm
Sue
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Had it been noted on the thread that the marriage found by giblet took place at Bathurst.?
V18344532 74B/1834 BURKE JAMES WALSH ELLEN JI
JI = Presbyterian Bathurst
Sue
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A James BURKE died suddenly at Scone. Reg. 5853/1863
He was employed for 25 years on a property at Scone owned by the then NSW Minister of Lands who paid for the burial of James BURKE. May have been the father of Helen CHANDLER/HOLMES?
Rhonda
There is some information about this man on Jenn Willett's website "free or felon" posted by MUSS above.
http://www.jenwilletts.com/search.htm
Sue
Can't tell which James BURKE on that website?
Report of his death.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18700303?searchTerm="James BURKE"&searchLimits=l-decade=186|||l-title=8
Rhonda
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Hello Everyone
Many thanks all your replies and great suggestions yesterday.
Feel that the best possibility is the idea that John Chandler married Alice White (wonder if she was part of the famous White family of Belltrees fame) at Scone in 1856 (reg. 1995) As noted, there are no children registered for this couple. He took up with Helen/Ellen Burke or whatever her maiden name was, and my ggm Georgina Jane was born of this liaison in 1858. Helen/Ellen then used the Chandler surname for her following 3 daughters until she met up with James Holmes.
I see that a John Chandler died in Warialda in 1859 (reg.5326) aged 46 years. An Alice Chandler married same year in Scone to a Edward Robert Ettreridge (sic) (reg. 2905)
Now the decision I need to make is whether I buy John & Alice's marriage certificate to see if it shows John's occupation (it was noted on George Jane's marriage record that her father was a 'Drover') or does anyone have access to the Scone Church records?
Bonnie
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Interesting stuff... ::) My GGGrandfather Married an Alice Chandler in 1884. She may have got around. My GGGrandfafther had 4 children with her but lost 2.
Neil
Meant to put in that the death in Warialda fits with the occupation of DROVER. It was the stockroute south to scone and supplies to Sydney.
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Hi Neil .... now that's really interesting that the John Chandler who died at Warialda in 1859 was a 'Drover'. All I now need to find out if it was the same John Chandler who married Alice White in 1856 ... hopefully someone has access to the Scone Parish Records and be able to tell me. Bonnie
PS Off to visit my elderly parents, will be back on line this afternoon
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the ellen burke who resided at bolton st newcastle who was my great grandmother had a maiden name of mahony and was the daughter of john mahony and elllen considine married in bathurst district. had two children william burke 1885-1921 and mary ellen 1887-1961
ellen passed away in 1935
the records show that an noel andrew burke also resided at the address in 1920s he was my grandfather and was the son of mary ellen his father was unknown
mary ellen moved to sydney and married in balmain and had five other children to james jackson
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Hi fordson welcome to rootschat :)
Bonnie will be along shortly. Trouble is everyone is watching state of origin except me (rugby).
cheers,
Ros
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Hi fordson,
Welcome to RChat from me too ..... Like Ros, I am NOT watching State of Origin ;D ;D ;D
May I please ask about those 1920s records you mention as showing your Grandfather at Bolton St, Newcastle .... I am interested to know what type of records they are ... are they private papers, or are they official records?
Many cheers, JM (NSW centric, always fascinated in any type of NSW official record)....
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On the 1878 NSW ER (electoral roll) for BATHURST,
MAHONEY (with an "e") residence, William St BATHURST
On the 1903 NSW ER for NEWCASTLE, polling place of Newcastle City:
BURKE, Ellen, Bolton St, NEWCASTLE CITY, domestic duties
Cheers, JM
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Hi Fordson ... Welcome to Rootschat ... many thanks your message re Ellen Burke. At present I am travelling and unable to check my ancestral chart but from memory, my Ellen Holmes formerly Burke/ Chandler blah blah blah died in the early 1890's in Leadville, near Gulgong, NSW.
Will get back to you in the next day or so. Bonnie
PS Hey hey Ros, nice to hear from you
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Hi Fordson
Unfortunately your Helen/Ellen Burke and mine are not the same person. Mine born circa 1834, to possible parents James Burke and Ellen Walsh who married 1834 in Bathurst but no birth registration found under those names. Or James Welch and Ellen nee Kain (though no marriage found for them yet in NSW) and baptised Sydney 1835, 17 Nov.
Helen/Ellen resided in Newcastle from around 1864 (when her third child was born) until no later than 1874 when her sixth child was born in Gulgong. I have her death certificate but unfortunately no parents names shown and it only stated she was born in the 'New England' district of NSW and 57 years of age when she died on 05 May 1893.
Thanks again for making contact. Good luck with your research. Bonnie
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sorry for the length o time in getting back to you about noel andrew burke of bolton st newcastle, the information is both from family and a census which i cant remember the date of it showed only his grandmother ellen as the only other resident at that address, this was confirmed by the last of my grandfathers brothers last week
ellen's husband was a george burke unfortunately i have no further information about george as the aunty who had all the information passed away a couple of years ago before i started looking it all up
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On the 1903 NSW ER for NEWCASTLE, polling place of Newcastle City:
BURKE, Ellen, Bolton St, NEWCASTLE CITY, domestic duties
sorry for the length o time in getting back to you about noel andrew burke of bolton st newcastle, the information is both from family and a census which i cant remember the date of it showed only his grandmother ellen as the only other resident at that address, this was confirmed by the last of my grandfathers brothers last week
ellen's husband was a george burke unfortunately i have no further information about george as the aunty who had all the information passed away a couple of years ago before i started looking it all up
Hi there,
I am not a relative, just an RChatter who has previously contributed to this thread. May I pass the following info onto fordson 105, and hope this helps he and his great uncle, as I hope I am finding the ‘right’ Noel Andrew BURKE for them. May I gently note that if I have found their chap then the NSW BDM records do not seem to include any info about Noel Andrew BURKE’s father.
1930 Electoral Roll, for NEWCASTLE NSW
Noel Andrew BURKE, salesman, 62 Bolton St, NEWCASTLE.
Ellen BURKE, home duties, 62 Bolton St NEWCASTLE
My inscriptions offline resource has :
10 Oct 1972 Noel Andrew BURKE, aged 68, buried Rookwood Cemetery,. Lawn, Section 3, Row 49, Plot 1786. Inscription “husband”.
http://www.catholiccemeteries.com.au/deceased-search/
The website has Noel Andrew Aloysius, aged 68, burial 10 Oct 1972 and the plot no as above.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html
The NSW BDM online index has a birth registration for a Noel A BURKE in 1904 at Newcastle. His mother’s given name is indexed as Mary E. His father’s name is not displayed. The Ref No. is 34829
The NSW BDM online index has a death registration for Noel Andrew BURKE, in 1972. The ref no. 67848. The index has his age as 68 years, and his mother as Mary Ellen. The death was registered in the Newtown district.
Ryerson Index has Noel Andrew Aloysius aged 68, late of Marrickville, death 8 Oct 1972, SMH 0 Oct 1972.
http://www.ryersonindex.org/
Google newspapers archives has The Sydney Morning Herald (under ‘S’) http://news.google.com/newspapers
Look for Tuesday 10 Oct 1972 edition of The Sydney Morning Herald, and then notice that page 22 of 9 Oct 1972 is on the left hand side of Tuesday’s front page. Page 22 has the deaths and funerals notices for Noel BURKE.
If this info is for fordson's Noel BURKE, then perhaps a new thread could be hived off from this one. Fordson, if you would like RChatters to help you research some more for your Noel, please do let us know and one of us will contact a moderator to request some assistance behind the scenes. Of course, if you want help with any of your ancestors, please do consider starting a new topic and asking for help that way.
You will find RChat is a great place for receiving help. Here's the "How to" thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=368728.0
Cheers, JM
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Thanks fordson105 your message but alas we aren't connected
Thanks too JM - your terrific findings, I am sure, will be of great assistance to above.
Alas, I am no closer to breaking down my 'brick wall'. But hopeful this year will be able to do trip to Scone historical society and check out the marriage of the John Chandler to Alice White in 1856 and John's death Warialda in 1859 …
Thanks
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More information has since been found
Ellen Mahony (Clare, Ireland) married George Burke (New Ross, Ireland) a mariner in Newcastle N.S.W in 1885 had 2 children William Henry Burke 1886 and Mary Ellen Burke 1887 and no further records for George has been found.
Ellen gave birth to Mary Ellen at the benevolent asylum in Newcastle.
Mary Ellen gave birth to Noel Andrew Burke (my grandfather) in 1904 and Noel was then raised by Ellen, this is in line with the previous posts.
Noel was shown as a brother to William Henry Burke (his Uncle) on the obituary notice when William died from injuries occurred in a railway shunting accident in Newcastle in 1922, In Ellen's will he is listed as her grandson and resided with Ellen till she passed in 1935 in Bolton st
Ellen Mahony's parents were John Mahony and Catherine Shea, she was born in Clare Ireland and is buried at Sandgate cemetery in Newcastle with her Sister Mary Allen nee Mahony still attempting to trace when she and Mary emigrated to Australia