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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: Vasquez109 on Sunday 03 February 13 00:55 GMT (UK)
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Hi Everyone,
Im really struggling at the moment to find a Samuel Griffiths b.1829 with a father of the same name in the 1851 census. I got hold of Samuel juniors marriage certificate, which showed residence. And I just can't find a thing.
It might be because i've spent 2 hours trying to find it now and going goggly-eyed.
Have attached the image if it helps.
David.
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Hi this looks to be him in 1851:-
Elizabeth Griffiths 56 Widow
Samuel 21 Son/Single occ Copper Smelter
Both born Llansamlet
Residing at Upper Bank, Llansamlet
Census Ref HO107/2464/621/17
And in 1841:-
Elizabeth Griffith 37?
Samuel 11
Residing at Bank, Upper, Llansamlet
Census Ref HO107/1419/ 13/10 / 3
Their is also this possible burial:-
Samuel Griffith 22nd October 1837 Llansamlet, Dedication St Samlet aged 40
Keyboard86
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This is a bit further on than Llansamlet I think, moving down towards Swansea and the sea. Its Pentrechwyth (modern spelling) in my opinion and is about 2 miles from the core of Llansamlet and just above the river Tawe. Pentrechwyth is on a hill above what used to be the White Rock copper works so presumably a short stroll down the hillside to get to work each day?
I don't recognise Gnap (Cnap?) Goch (Coch?) but it would be worth looking at an old map of Pentrechwyth to see if its on there.
I think if you Google 'Rifleman's Row' you will find modern day Pentrechwyth on a map. I think that is still there.
Bernard
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There seems to be a map here at the West Glam Archive Service:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gnap+coch+pentrechwyth+map&rls=com.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7;&rlz=1I7TSEA_en-GB
Which is:
<D/D BF 1733> Lease for 60 years from 25 Mar 1906 for £6 8s annual rent dated 31 Dec 1906; Victor Albert George earl of Jersey to David Meager of Eaton Crescent, Swansea; Buildings at Gnap Goch between the road from Foxhole to Bonymaen and the Rising Sun public house, Llansamlet. Includes plan
[1 parchment]
I'll be over there next week and could dig that out and photograph any map bit if you like. I suspect that the actual parchment will be too big for photography.
Bernard
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those would be the same census entries as I gave you last July, second reply
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,605420.0.html
;)
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Hi Osprey.
Really sorry about that. Normally I've got a little book here with a red pen tick next to names in question if I've ever made enquiries about them on RC. And looking in my book, I must have forgotten to put the red pen next to it. And why haven't I followed up what was put last time? The only reason I can think of was that there might have been some doubt about a certain aspect of it. But looking again, I can't see why.
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Bernard,
I'm quite familiar with Rifleman's Row, as I drive the local service buses past there most days. To me at least, Pentrechwyth ends at the school on the main road. There are houses up on the side of the hill at the bus stop but not sure how old they are. Pentrechwyth doesn't seem like a very very large place, if you blink from turning in on the foxhole road, you're suddenly in Bonymaen.
David.
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Their is also this possible burial:-
Samuel Griffith 22nd October 1837 Llansamlet, Dedication St Samlet aged 40
Keyboard86
Keyboard I'm not sure that's the right one as the marriage certificate is from 1857 and the father is not stated as deceased.
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father not being noted as deceased doesn't mean he was alive at the time. The question is name and occupation of father, not if he is alive. I have records of 3 brothers marrying in the 1840s & 1850s. Their father is never shown as deceased on the certs, but he had died in 1835.
;)
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1851 census has a 23 year old Thomas Leyshon, copperman, in Upper Bank on the next page from the possible Samuel, 7 schedules away. A possibililty for one of the witnesses to the marriage?
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Hi Osprey.
I suppose you are right, I'm so used to seeing 'deceased' on cents, I thought it was the norm.
David.
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Hi this looks to be him in 1851:-
Elizabeth Griffiths 56 Widow
Samuel 21 Son/Single occ Copper Smelter
Both born Llansamlet
Residing at Upper Bank, Llansamlet
Census Ref HO107/2464/621/17
Sorry keyboard,
Found this now im not so sure. Do you think this could be a possibility? Not too sure where it is in Swansea, just 'Back Street'. :( HO107/2466/360/34
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Hi again, if you believe that the 1851 census could be incorrect, then that would suggest that the 1841 is also incorrect, as the address is the same, also the occupation of Samuel is Copperman in 1841 and Copper Smelter in the 1851, his marriage also states the same occupation?
Keyboard86
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info here might help you find it
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GLAMORGAN/2012-05/1337463270
As I mentioned earlier, the marriage witness, Thomas Leyshon, also looks to have been in Upper Bank.
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Hi,
Just a little bit of information that may help as i was born and raised in Pentrechwyth.
Pentrechwyth does indeed start at the school and runs down as far as white rock where it joins Foxhole road. Nearly all of the houses there go back to the dates of the old Grenfell and Vivian owners and works. Pentrechwyth includes the roads of Grenfell Town, Riffleman's Row and Taplow Terrace, which are up on the hill behind the bus stop. Old Terraces/Roads around Pentrechwyth include Cuba Row, Caepstyll Row and Cnap-Goch - which was indeed between Pentrechwyth and the old Tregwl of Foxhole and St Thomas. Pentrechwyth also at times in the 1800's was written down as being part of St Thomas. Most people in the area would have gone to Llansamlet Church or its sister church of Kilvey, so if you're looking to go back further i think this parish would be my first port of call. There are also methodist and Baptist churches less than a 5 - 10 min walk away. Cwm methodist, Cannan Chapple, Bethal Chapple and Adulam.
Pentrechwyth is often mis-spealt in documents as Pentre-chwech and Pentre-six, but i'm told by the very old generation that the correct spelling is Pentrechwyth - meaning windy village or windy village on the left.
The upper bank-lower bank railway line ruin was still there in parts (just below old Morris Brother's Site, at the bottom of the public foot bridge running from Pentrechwyth Village Road down to the Tennis Centre and Morfa Park. But currently it has been cleared for a new housing development unfortunately.
If you come across any more roads or villages around the area that quite often don't appear on maps (experiance from my own searches) please ask and if i can help will be glad to do so.
Hope this helps,
Pedro
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Thank you Pedro. That is very kind!
David.
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Hello dont know if any good but live in pentrecwyth and have old deeds from 1890 house belonged to earl of jersey can dig them out if need be to get names of previous owners and name off road as it has changed to bonymaen rd from llansamlet rd i think
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There's a seemingly excellent book about the copper industry in Swansea, called Copperopolis, by Stephen Hughes. It features various maps incl. one that shows the location of Gnap-coch. Whether it was a village as well, I'm not sure, but on the map there is the Gnap-coch Mansion, which according to the text, was converted into accomodation for the families of some of the White Rock copperworkers. I've not got the book but preview pages are available on Googlebooks if you go to..
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oXjppt5BYjEC&pg=PA345&dq=cNAP+GOCH+llansamlet&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZYo1Uu6AMoWu7AbekoEI&ved=0CDIQ6wEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22cNAP%20GOCh%22&f=false
...you can then click on a page and scroll through a selection of the pages.
My interest is in the family of Owen Owens, a foreman at the copperworks. on the 1851 Census he is at Llansamlet in the "village" of "Knap Coach". His daughter, Margaret Owen(s) married Francis Nethersole, a clerk at the copperworks, in 1864, following the death of his English born wife, Mary, the year before. The marriage was the cause of much consternation on the part of Francis's widowed mother and her new husband, Howard Staunton, the former world chess champion. Francis and his illiterate new Welsh wife, Margaret, returned to London where he secured a job as clerk at the Admiralty in Whitehall. In 1874 their daughter Frances Nethersole was born. Her severely withered left arm was amputated when a toddler and she was orphaned by the age of 4. in the 1891 Census, now aged 16, she is at 10 Cathcart Hill, then a girls' boarding school, in North London. Today we live in flat B of that house.
All suggestions for reseaching the history of White Rock copperworks/ Llansamlet and the workers etc are very welcome.
Paul
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Hi,
No idea if you are still using this site, but wanted to ask if you still live in the area? Or, do you know why I can find more info about many (aporox 100+) copper smelter workers recruited by my ancestor to go to Canton (Baltimore) Maryland, USA to work in the copperworks there in the 1840s? My ancestor, David Davies/David was hired first and was a superintendent of the works in Baltimore, so I assume he had a position of authority in Wales, too. Or, is there any mention of this exodus?
I think I located his wife, Mary/Mary Ann) and a couple kids in Cnap Coch in 1841, and several baptisms and a marriage at St Thomas between 1787-1826, so far.
I am planning a research trip later this spring and want to have as much info as possible beforehand.
Thank you!
Mona
Hi,
Just a little bit of information that may help as i was born and raised in Pentrechwyth.
Pentrechwyth does indeed start at the school and runs down as far as white rock where it joins Foxhole road. Nearly all of the houses there go back to the dates of the old Grenfell and Vivian owners and works. Pentrechwyth includes the roads of Grenfell Town, Riffleman's Row and Taplow Terrace, which are up on the hill behind the bus stop. Old Terraces/Roads around Pentrechwyth include Cuba Row, Caepstyll Row and Cnap-Goch - which was indeed between Pentrechwyth and the old Tregwl of Foxhole and St Thomas. Pentrechwyth also at times in the 1800's was written down as being part of St Thomas. Most people in the area would have gone to Llansamlet Church or its sister church of Kilvey, so if you're looking to go back further i think this parish would be my first port of call. There are also methodist and Baptist churches less than a 5 - 10 min walk away. Cwm methodist, Cannan Chapple, Bethal Chapple and Adulam.
Pentrechwyth is often mis-spealt in documents as Pentre-chwech and Pentre-six, but i'm told by the very old generation that the correct spelling is Pentrechwyth - meaning windy village or windy village on the left.
The upper bank-lower bank railway line ruin was still there in parts (just below old Morris Brother's Site, at the bottom of the public foot bridge running from Pentrechwyth Village Road down to the Tennis Centre and Morfa Park. But currently it has been cleared for a new housing development unfortunately.
If you come across any more roads or villages around the area that quite often don't appear on maps (experiance from my own searches) please ask and if i can help will be glad to do so.
Hope this helps,
Pedro
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Grosehodge mentioned above (in Reply #17) that Francis Nethersole married Margaret Owen(s). His sister, Frances Ada Nethersole, also married an Owen, Henry James Owen. Was he related to Margaret, or is it coincidence? I understand him to have been a solicitor, of New Inn, London.
I have a very longstanding interest in Howard Staunton, so I would be very interested for any more information about the "consternation" concerning Francis Nethersole's marriage to Margaret.
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Hi John, the marriage of Francis Nethersole :-
Francis Nethersole 33 Widower occ Accountant address 2, Brunswick Street, Swansea Father William Dickinson Nethersole occ Solicitor
Margaret Owen 22 Spinster address Foxhole Father Owen Owen occ Foreman in Copperworks
18th October 1864 Glantawe
Keyboard86
EDIT Owen Owens married Mary David 24th October 1829 Llansamlet, no baptism of a Henry James Owen/s, who married 1854 Strand to Frances A Nethersole, Frances Ada Owen died September qtr 1856 Kensington 1a 34 aged 24
Re Howard Staunton, the classic chess pieces on my board/coffee table as I type!
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Hi no it is purely a coincidence as 1861:-
Henry James Owen 40 occ? Solicitor b Bawtry, Yorks
Elizabeth 27 b Clapham
Mary Owen 70 Mother b Birmingham
Henry 6 b Kensington ( son of Henry & Frances, Male Owen December qtr 1854 Kensington 01A 67 mmn Nethersole)
Harold Charles Cunliffe Owen 1 b Kensington mmn Teague
Residing at St Albans Road, Kensington
Census ref RG09/19/119/44
Marriage Henry James Owen to Elizabeth Anne Teague December qtr 1857 Lambeth 1d 375
Baptism Henry James Owen 12th March 1820 Bawtry, Yorkshire Father James Gunter Owen Mother Mary
Keyboard86
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Many thanks, keyboard86, for your two posts and for the information.