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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cambridgeshire => Topic started by: Senahel on Thursday 07 February 13 16:19 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to trace my wife's ancestors, her father Michael t lofts was born may 1940 in islington,
his father Thomas f lofts born June 1873 married Kathleen mannix b1912 in sept 1937 in stoke newington. He was 64, she was only 25,
Michael and his mother Kathleen returned to Ireland when he was only a few months old, Thomas remained on as he was in the British army,(though not confirmed)
He was never heard from after that.
If anyone could help in any way with his parents names or death or army records,
I would really appreciate it.
Thanks in advance
Senahel......
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Hi
Here is his birth registration
Births June qtr 1873
Thomas Frederick Lofts Newmarket 3b 555
Newmarket spans the boundaries of the counties of Cambridgeshire and Suffolk
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1881 census for Mildenhall Suffolk all b there except George & Thomas
Zeno Lofts 44
Sarah A 47
Sarah J 14
William 12
George 10 b Swaffham Cambs
Thomas F 8 b Swaffham
RG11 Piece 1845 Folio 91 Page 3
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He may have married Alice Bendall in Newmarket in the June quarter 1899. Vol 3b page 1211
But this Thomas appears to have died in 1900 as in 1901 his widow Alice 21 was living in Swaffham Bulbeck, Cambs with daughter Olive 1 in the household of her parents
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Thomas F Lofts born June 1873 he was in the British army,(though not confirmed)
I can't confirm if this his him surname is LOFT no 'S' have looked at the medal card record as sometimes they include full middle name but it's only states 'F' :(
There doesn't appear to be any service records on line for the Thomas F Loft either to check out his age or any other details ???
Pte Thomas F Loft
Regiment or Corps: Coldstream Guards
Regimental Number: 18860
This Thomas received the Victory & British Medal Roll: C G/101 B page: 816
no other details
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Thanks for the quick reply Carole.
Does that mean that he was born in swaffham,
And that his parents are Zeno and Sarah?
Are the others his siblings?
Senahel.....
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He may have married Alice Bendall in Newmarket in the June quarter 1899. Vol 3b page 1211
1901 RG13; Piece: 1540; Folio: 115
Alice Lofts is a widow living with her parents Isaac & Rebekka Bendall & daughter Olive Lofts born 1900
oops didn't see that you had already added that info. bedfordshireboy :)
Death entry
Thomas Lofts age 27 abt 1873
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1900
Registration district: Mildenhall Suffolk
Volume: 4a page 480
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He may have married Alice Bendall in Newmarket in the June quarter 1899. Vol 3b page 1211
Thanks, but I did find that.
Alice bendall was a widow in 1901 cencus so that is a different Thomas f lofts.
Senahel....
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Thanks, but I did find that.
Alice bendall was a widow in 1901 cencus so that is a different Thomas f lofts.
Precisely! So the one born in Swaffham in 1873 is a red herring as he died in 1900.
Let's go back to basics.
Do you have his 1937 marriage cert? Who was his father named as and what was his occupation, what was Thomas' age given as, what was his occupation, what was his marital status?
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Hi
Does that mean that he was born in swaffham,
And that his parents are Zeno and Sarah?
Are the others his siblings?
Yes to all but I would recommend buying a copy of the 1937 marriage cert to check his fathers name as a precaution and to make sure we have the right family.
It will also confirm Thomas's occupation at that time. I haven't a clue as to age limits back then but I wondered if he would still be a serving officer at age 64
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Going back to the 1899 marriage between Alice Bendall and Thomas Frederick Lofts
Deaths December qtr 1900 Thomas Lofts aged 27 Mildenhall 4a 480
No mention of middle name Frederick but his birthyear is 1873 which means the birth and 1881 census entry may be his - and not your Thomas Frederick
This strengthens the case for getting the 1937 marriage cert
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Thanks for the replys guys.
I don't have any certs for him, only info I found on line.
I know he was born in June 1873 and married Kathleen mannix in
Sept 1937, and they had a son in may 1940.
Looks like I will have to get his marriage cert.
Any further info welcome
Thanks again
Senahel.....
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only info I found on line.
I know he was born in June 1873
married Kathleen mannix in Sept 1937,
they had a son in May 1940.
The son's birth entry is 1940 Islington mmn MANNIX
Do you have birth certificate of son? If so what address is given?
I believe due to the war there are no Electoral Registers for 1940 - 44 have looked at the
ER for 1938 & 1939 Islington there is a
Thomas Lofts & Cathleen Lofts living at 10 Barnsbury Street
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I know he was born in June 1873
What documentary evidence do you have which confirms his birthyear
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I don't have birth cert for son, only have his death cert, he died in Ireland.
On his death cert it only says, place of birth England.
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Hi
That doesn't answer my question unless Michael's Irish death cert shows his father's birthyear
You say that you know that Thomas was born 1873 - how do you know that for certain apart from the entry on freebmd I posted? Do you have some other document that confirms his birthyear?
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Sorry Carole.
I don't have any document stating his date of birth.
Only what I found on freebmd. The marriage in 1937.
And he was the only Thomas f showing up in the births.
Do you think I have the wrong Thomas f?
Thanks
Senahel....
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I don't think you have the wrong Thomas F Lofts. I know you have the wrong Thomas F Lofts.
The only way to sort this lot out is to invest £9-25 in the 1937 marriage cert
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I don't think you have the wrong Thomas F Lofts. I know you have the wrong Thomas F Lofts.
The only way to sort this lot out is to invest £9-25 in the 1937 marriage cert
Thanks for that Bedfordshire boy, where would I send to get the marriage cert.
And what info would be on it.?
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I honestly don't know as I was only using the info you gave.
He was 64, she was only 25,
Was this just guesswork based on the birth entry on freebmd - or is it a known fact that he was 39yrs older than her?
Realistically - the only way of progressing it is by buying a copy of the 1937 marriage cert.
It will confirm his age at that time
His occupation
His fathers name and occupation
Witnesses names which could be (if you are lucky) surname Lofts
www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
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Thanks for the link Carole
I am applying for it now online, it's looking for a gro index ref no,
Would this no be 994 For the 1937 marriage cert?
Senahel...
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It's September qtr 1937
Volume 1B
Page 994
District Stoke Newington
Keep this thread open and post the marriage details when you get the cert
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Ok cert ordered, will post details when I have them.
Thanks to everyone for their input.
Senahel...
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Ok here goes, got the marriage cert, marriage 1st aug 1937,
Thomas f (looks like Francis) lofts, age 25, factory hand, address
(Looks like 105 spensor rd, n16) fathers name Thomas lofts (deceased)
Occupation (looks like cannon)
Witnesses Elizabeth croucher or crowder?, Bridie mannix.
Senahel.....
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marriage 1st aug 1937,
Thomas f (looks like Francis) lofts, age 25, factory hand, address
(Looks like 105 spensor rd, n16) fathers name Thomas lofts (deceased)
Occupation (looks like cannon)
Witnesses Elizabeth croucher?, Bridie mannix.
Hello again Senahel
At the moment this is the only entry I'm seeing for a Thomas Francis Lofts
Thomas Francis Lofts died age 78 Birth Date: 18 Oct 1913
Date of Registration: Dec 1991 Burnley and Pendle Lancashire
Volume: 40 Page: 961
Checking FreeBMD to see if I can see a birth entry this will give a mother's maiden name
Witness Bridie MANNIX may be Kathleen's sister,
Bridie is a pet form of the feminine name Brighid which is of Gaelic origin.
The Gaelic Brighid gave way to several feminine names such as Bridget and Bride
What was Kathleen's age & father's name?
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Thomas f was 25 when he married in 1937.
Kathleen was also 25. So both were born in 1912.
The witness Bridie mannix may have went over for the wedding, as
All the mannix family are buried in Ireland.
Another family member has the mannix family tree done.
I'm trying to upload a photo of the cert from my iPhone
But it says file too big, any help.
Senahel......
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There is this birth entry but he's born 1908 ???
Thomas Francis Loft Oct-Nov-Dec 1908 Edmonton Middlesex Volume: 3a Page: 433
Can I just check there was no middle initial for his father Thomas Lofts ?
The reason I ask is there's this marriage but surname LOFT (no S)
Thomas Francis Loft age 24 (1878) occ. Labourer father Thomas William occ Tailor
abode 3 Palace Terrace
Sarah Jane Blanche age 23 father Charles
28 Sep 1902 St James Muswell Hill St James
Witnesses were Charles & Annie E? Blanche
Looks as if the surname is LOFT and no 'S'
Thomas Francis Loft age 37 (1878)
Document Year: 1915
Regimental Number: 18860
Regiment Name: Coldstream Guards
Number of images: 6
Thomas F Loft died age 64 (1878) Jul-Aug-Sep 1942 Hendon Middlx Vol 3a Page:510
Thomas Francis Loft of 28 Wwilton Road Muswell Hill Middlesex
Died 11 September 1942 Probate Llandudno 20 Oct to Thomas Francis Loft asphalt spreader and Charles William Loft maintenance fitter
Effects £282 4s. 7d
:( The above Thomas' can't be the one as his father Thomas was noted as deceased on his 1937 marriage certificate to Kathleen
back to the drawing board
Is it possible that you can attach a piece of the marriage cert for Thomas' father occupation
as you are unsure what it reads?
Thank you
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I'm trying to upload a photo of the cert from my iPhone
But it says file too big, any help.
Have a read of this to see if it will help
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130922.0.html
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Thomas lofts (deceased) no middle letter, and its lofts not loft.
Occupation cannon? He may have been in the army.
I can't resize the photos on the iPhone to upload them.
Senahel......
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Thomas Francis LOFT born 1878 ruled out
Looking into a marriage but there's only one female on the page so just trying to see if I can find the other name and then possibly match those surnames with
a birth entry for a Thomas LOFTS born c1912
Dec 1909 Wandsworth
Thomas LOFTS
names on same page
George PAXTON
Mary Christina PIGGOT
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Check FreeBMD for birth Lofts / Piggott no Thomas F Lofts
having difficulty finding the other female for the 1909 Wandsworth marriage ???
I've rechecked FreeBMD for births of a Thomas LOFTS c1912 not finding anything for that date ???
one birth entry came up for
1915 Bury St E mmn Worby but his middle inital is B
and the marriage Worby/Lofts
gives a middle name for the father Thomas GEORGE Lofts
Mmm.. Thomas' birth entry is not proving easy to find
So was your Thomas F(rancis) LOFTS born else where ???
I have to go shortly so will take another look later maybe someone else looking may see something obvious I've missed
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Ladyhawk, sent you pm.
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:( The above Thomas' can't be the one as his father Thomas was noted as deceased on his 1937 marriage certificate to Kathleen
back to the drawing board
He wouldn't be the first person to put his father down as deceased when he was still alive!
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England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2006
Birth, Marriage & Death, including Parish
NAME:
Thomas Francis Lofts
BIRTH:
date
DEATH:
dd mm 1991 - city, Lancashire, England
I found this death record, don't know if its the same Thomas Francis
Senahel.....
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Senahel has sent me a copy of the marriage certificate for Thomas F Lofts so we can take a look at his middle name and father’s occupation
I think middle name FRANCIS is correct and
father's occupation looks to read CARMAN
Here’s a snippet of both Thomases names & occupations to check
OK see if these are any better
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England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2006
Birth, Marriage & Death, including Parish
NAME:
Thomas Francis Lofts
BIRTH:
date
DEATH:
dd mm 1991 - city, Lancashire, England
I found this death record, don't know if its the same Thomas Francis
Senahel.....
I posted details of that death entry reply 24 but here it is again it shows that Thomas was born 1913
Thomas Francis Lofts died age 78 Birth Date: 18 Oct 1913
Dec 1991 Burnley and Pendle Lancashire Volume: 40 Page: 961
Do you know when and where his wife Kathleen died?
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I agree, Francis middle name, and carman, occupation
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Just looked at the Electoral Register for 1938 & 1939 Islington
living at 10 Barnsbury Street is a Thomas & Cathleen LOFTS
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Do you know when and where his wife Kathleen died?
[/quote]
Yes his wife moved back to Ireland in 1940 when their son Michael was
Only a few months old.
They never heard from him since.
Kathleen died in 1957 at 45y and is buried here.
Senahel....
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Apologies I remember now you said at the beginning of the thread ::)
Have just checked the Electoral Register Lambeth for 1937
there is an address for Spenser Road but unfortunately it's not showing
no's 103 or 105 ???
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Apologies I remember now you said at the beginning of the thread ::)
Have just checked the Electoral Register Lambeth for 1937
there is an address for Spenser Road but unfortunately it's not showing
no's 103 or 105 ???
I found something today about spencer road, but can't seem to find
It now.
There was a north and south side to the street, one had odd numbers
The other even. So 103&105 were next to each other.
This was down as an army music instrument makers.
As both Thomas f & Kathleen were factory hands on marriage
Cert, maybe they both worked there.
This is near brockwell park, tulse hill, Brixton hill area,
If that makes any sence to you.
Senahel....
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I found something today about spencer road, but can't seem to find
It now.
This is near brockwell park, tulse hill, Brixton hill area,
sorry I don't know the London area to advise you
Have attached the address so others can view
I have re checked FreeBMD I just can't find a birth entry for a
Thomas Francis LOFTS born Oct 1913 that died in 1991
only the Thomas Francis LOFT born 1908
Finding his birth entry will then help with a marriage for his parents
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I think you're both looking at the wrong Spencer and Spenser Roads
The address on the marriage cert is N16 ie North 16, which was the Stoke Newington area of Hackney. Not Lambeth which is south of the river, and not Brockwell Park, Tulse Hill and Brixton Hill which are also south of the river.
David
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I think you're both looking at the wrong Spencer and Spenser Roads
The address on the marriage cert is N16 ie North 16, which was the Stoke Newington area of Hackney. Not Lambeth which is south of the river, and not Brockwell Park, Tulse Hill and Brixton Hill which are also south of the river.
David
Thanks for that dave,
The only 1 I can find in stoke newington is,
103 Spenser Grove, Hackney, N16 8TU, England.
Senahel.....
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There's a Kathleen Mannix and Mary Mannix at 6 Ainger Rd, Chalk Farm, St Pancras in 1937. Kathleen was at the same address in 1936.
BUT both of them were at 7 Ainger Rd in 1938 and 1939.
Pity!
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I have just ordered a birth cert for Thomas Francis lofts,
But as I don't have an exact dob it will be 15 working days before
It will be dispatched, (15th march)plus a few days delivery.
So until then I will keep searching.
Senahel......
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Here's an email I got today.
Thank you for your order as detailed below.
Birth Certificate: THOMAS LOFTS born 01-JAN-1912 in CAMBRIDGESHIRE
We have been unable to process your application, please refer to the paragraph below.
We have searched the indexes for events registered in England and Wales during the years specified (1911-1913). We have been unable to find any entry with the details you provided.
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A family member told me Kathleen mannix was born in 1911,
I found her in the 1911 census under mannie.
The Bridie mannix (witness) on marriage cert is birdie not Bridie
This was her nickname, her proper name was Margaret.
She lived in jersey.
Senahel....
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thomas francis lofts death registered dec 1991 burnley pen/lancashire date of birth shown as 18th oct 1913
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There is this birth entry but he's born 1908 ???
Thomas Francis Loft Oct-Nov-Dec 1908 Edmonton Middlesex Volume: 3a Page: 433
Can I just check there was no middle initial for his father Thomas Lofts ?
The reason I ask is there's this marriage but surname LOFT (no S)
Thomas Francis Loft age 24 (1878) occ. Labourer father Thomas William occ Tailor
abode 3 Palace Terrace
Sarah Jane Blanche age 23 father Charles
28 Sep 1902 St James Muswell Hill St James
Witnesses were Charles & Annie E? Blanche
Looks as if the surname is LOFT and no 'S'
Thomas Francis Loft age 37 (1878)
Document Year: 1915
Regimental Number: 18860
Regiment Name: Coldstream Guards
Number of images: 6
Thomas F Loft died age 64 (1878) Jul-Aug-Sep 1942 Hendon Middlx Vol 3a Page:510
Thomas Francis Loft of 28 Wwilton Road Muswell Hill Middlesex
Died 11 September 1942 Probate Llandudno 20 Oct to Thomas Francis Loft asphalt spreader and Charles William Loft maintenance fitter
Effects £282 4s. 7d
:( The above Thomas' can't be the one as his father Thomas was noted as deceased on his 1937 marriage certificate to Kathleen
back to the drawing board
Is it possible that you can attach a piece of the marriage cert for Thomas' father occupation
as you are unsure what it reads?
Thank you
I think a lot of the above fits in.
Thanks ladyhawk
Today I got birth cert,
Thomas Francis loft (no s)
B 16 oct 1908
M 1 aug 1937
D xxxx
Father Thomas Francis loft
occ roadman
Mother Sarah Jane Blanche.
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London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
BIRTH, MARRIAGE & DEATH, INCLUDING PARISHView Image
NAME: Thomas Francis Loft
SPOUSE: Sarah Jane Blanche
BIRTH: year
MARRIAGE: date - city
Found this on ancestry,co uk
Could anyone get me more information on these?
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St James' Church, Muswell Hill
28 Sep 1902
Thomas Francis Loft 24 Bachelor labourer of 3 Palace Terrace, father Thomas William Loft, tailor
&
Sarah Jane Blanche 23 spinster of 3 Palace Terrace, Father Charles Blanche labourer
By Banns, Both signed
Witnesses: Charles Blanche and Anne Eliza Blanche
But you were given this information in reply #27 and you repeated it in reply #50
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Does the 1908 birth cert really have a marriage date on it???
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Sorry meant to look for info on the parents,
Charles Blanche and I think the mother might be Emma Blanche.
I included the marriage date in my post, I got it off the marriage cert.
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1911 census
The Cedars, Muswell Hill Place, Muswell Hill N
Thomas Francis Loft head 32 married Scavenger borough council b Yardley Birmingham
Sarah Jane Loft wife 31 Married 8 yrs, 3 children all living, b Muswell Hill
Charles William Loft son 7 b Muswell Hill*
Catherine Ann Loft dau 5 b Muswell Hill
Thomas Francis Loft son 2 b Muswell Hill
Baptism
Sarah Jane Blanche 8 Oct 1879 at Muswell Hill St James dau of Charles & Emma of Brickfield Cottages, labourer
You'll find the marriage of Charles Blanche in 1874 on www.freebmd.org.uk.
The full certificate shows
22 June 1874 at St Barnabas, Islington
Charles Blanche bachelor 23 labourer of 4 Campbell Row, father James Blanche labourer
Emma Green spinster 25 of 4 Campbell Row, father James Green labourer
Witnesses John Halifax & Ann Keetch
Have you checked the 1881 census at www.familysearch.org ? You'll find Thomas W Loft and son Thomas Loft in St Pancras. Despite what Thomas William Loft's occupation was shown as on Thomas Francis' marriage cert in 1902, I don't think he was a tailor. I think that's what the vicar thought he heard. In censuses and on the marriage cert of his daughter Christina or Christiana he gave his occupation as either plasterer or tiler. Tiler/tailor might sound very similar.
* See reply #27 where Ladyhawk gave you the probate details of Thomas Francis Loft sen where the two sons appearing in 1911 were executors. So putting deceased on Thomas Francis Loft jun's 1937 marriage cert was incorrect, as he didn't die until five years later. It's not the first time I've seen a father described as deceased when he was still alive.
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That's great information,
Thanks a million for that.
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Have you checked the 1881 census at www.familysearch.org ?
You'll find Thomas W Loft and son Thomas Loft in St Pancras.
Despite what Thomas William Loft's occupation was shown as on Thomas Francis' marriage cert in 1902, I don't think he was a tailor. I think that's what the vicar thought he heard.
In censuses and on the marriage cert of his daughter Christina or Christiana he gave his occupation as either plasterer or tiler. Tiler/tailor might sound very similar.
Marriage of Thomas William Loft born c1846 Rochester Kent occ Plasterer
1 Jun 1874 St Michael Church Wood Green Haringey
Thomas William LOFT widower 29 Plasterer f John bricklayer
Annie FRASER 23 f George soldier
Witnesses Rebecca Loft & Ann Giffend
1851/61 census show Thomas Loft born c1850 Rochester with his parents & siblings
father John bricklayer mother Sophia
siblings Louisa, John, George, Ann, Frances, Rebecca & Phoeby
Thomas' first wife name is Mary see 1871 his occ Plaster unemployed
1871c https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VRFD-VT6
1869 bapt. of first child https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JM4Z-PVC
Ernest LOFT possible death Dec 1876 age 7 Medway Kent
Mary LOFT possible death Dec 1872 St Olave age 28
father John LOFT born 17 May bapt 18 Jun 1815 Rochester Kent
parents John & Ann
for info
from Thomas Francis LOFT WW1 Pension Records year 1915 Regt Coldstream Guards Regt No 18860, the dob of Thomas Francis & Sarah Jane’s children given as
Charles William 5 Dec 1903 Catherine Annie 28 Nov 1905 Thomas Francis 26 Oct 1908
baptism of Charles & Catherine
Charles William LOFT bapt 24 Jan 1904 St James Muswell Hill
Parents Thomas Francis occ labourer & Sarah Jane Address 3 Place Terrace
Charles marries Mabel Clara Newnam (she died 1973) Sep qtr. 1925 Barnet Middx
Charles died age 54 Jun 1958 Hendon Middx Vol 5e pag 488
Catherine Annie LOFT bapt 28 Jan 1906 St James Muswell Hill
Parents Thomas Francis occ Labourer & Sarah Jane Address 3 Home Cottages
Catherine married Jun qtr. 1925 Edmonton Middx
Catherine Annie SEABROOK born 28 Nov 1905 Died age 68 Jun 1874 Bromley Kent Vol 11 page 1130