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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Moray (Elginshire) => Topic started by: emjaye on Tuesday 12 February 13 04:43 GMT (UK)
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Would anyone have information on a Peter Cameron, probably born about 1820. He was a mason and died before 1865, presumably in Moray.
He had an illegitimate son Robert Cameron, born about 1840, mother Jane ?. Robert died in Dr Gray's Hospital, Elgin in April 1865 from typhoid fever. The informant on his death certificate is his uncle Donald (I think) Cameron, who was living at the time at 222 High Street, Elgin.
Robert Cameron worked as a ploughman on the farm of one John Grant, Pitgaveny, although on the 1861 Census he is listed as what looks like Robert Gow.
Thank you.
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MJ, possibly a by-name for members of that family, Gow being a blacksmith.
Skoosh.
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Hi
The only Peter Cameron, with the occupation of Mason, that I can see so far in 1841 is this entry:
Peter Cameron 45 mason
Elizabeth Cameron 45
Peter Cameron 12
Jane Cameron 9
Address: Tomintoul Eastside Of Village, Kirkmichael, Banffshire
Do you have your Robert in the earlier censuses? Why do you think it is him under the Gow surname in 1861 (showing as born in Rosskeen, Rossshire c. 1840).
Do you have his mother's full name from his death cert in 1865? You have a question on first name of Donald, for Robert's uncle on his death cert, is it unclear? Is the relationship of uncle showing on this together with his address (Donald Cameron's)?
Sorry, questions, questions :P ::)
Monica
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Hi emjaye
Gosh this is a hard one for you :-\ Been having another look. See from young Robert's death entry where all the info is from.
An Uncle Donald Cameron, living at 222 High Street, Elgin shows as informant.
No surname showing for mother Jane who is also deceased, but I wish I could read the words after her name...I have attached a snippet below.
I can also see why you might think the Robert Gow may be your Robert Cameron, from that 1861 census entry given he shows as ploughman in the right age group and living at St Andrews Lhanbryd...but I would keep your options open for now just in case. Your Robert Cameron may have been born a little earlier perhaps as ages on censuses, as you know, can vary a bit.
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Achany/Achary?
The Rental Book for the Duke of Gordon's tenants in Strathavon, Tomintoul, 1821, is not overburdened with Camerons.
James Cameron, Innerchebil, "A good responsible tenant".
Tombreck, Donald Cameron, Donald Cameron jnr & James Cameron together with a few MacDonalds. No adverse comments.
Skoosh.
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Thank you both for your replies.
Monica, the reason I thought this may be the right Robert Cameron is that the information regarding his working for the farmer John Grant at Pitgaveny came from a "Register of Corrected Entries" attached to the birth certificate of his son (another) Robert Cameron born 11 Feb 1857, illegitimate. Mother is one Jessie Harrold, born Dallas abt 1834.
I had previously found Jessie in the 1861 Census, at Easter Calcot's Bothy, St Andrews Lhanbryd, and when I purchased the actual census image yesterday from ScotlandsPeople I realised that she was working in the next door household to the farmer John Grant.
It does seem like too much of a coincidence and I thought perhaps Robert may have been "Gow" because it was his mother's surname......Jane ?? A bit of a stretch, I know, but possible.
Plus, the usual residence given on 1865 death certificate is given as Calcots, St Andrews Lhanbryd. However, this is just a Census, so proves nothing one way or the other.
Obviously though the birthplace of Rosskeen is a giant spanner in my theory, lol!!
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If you have not already seen it, it is always worth looking at the free Libindx site which gives genealogical information from the area and allows you to to search for individuals.
The minutes of the kirk sessions are held in the National Archives in Edinburgh, but are available as digitised versions in some other archives. They deal with cases of illegitimacy. Every instance I've come across when "reputed father" has been given on a death certificate has been confirmed as accurate by checking the session minutes.
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Emjaye, the extra info you have regarding Robert and his son Robert b. 1857 certainly add to that 1861 census entry being the right one with Robert as Gow.
Have you found him in earlier censuses? I have struggled for 1841 and 1851. Thought maybe he might show under a mother's maiden name...but we don't know what that is. Also, she may have married after Robert's c.1840 birth and show in censuses under a different surname again. However, as father Peter, we have both deceased by 1865.
The fact that it was 'Uncle Donald' that reported Robert's death would imply that Robert kept in touch with his father's family over the years don't you think? I tried searching for a Donald Cameron on 1861 and 1871 in Elgin parish and nothing as yet jumping out.
Graham's comments re Kirk Session minutes is always a good way forward but would be good to have a better steer (rather than just one census) on Robert's place of birth. However, jumping a generation, there could be a mention for Robert's birth from 1857 and maybe a reference to where father Robert was from?
Monica
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Hello again,
Yes, thank you GR2, I discovered Libindx a few years ago, it is certainly an amazing tool. If only the other councils would follow their example.
As for the Kirk Sessions Records, I so wish I was able to access those. Unfortunately I am in Queensland, Australia so the tyranny of distance makes that impossible.
Like you, Monica, I have been unable to find Robert in the earlier census', or Peter or Donald. No luck with Libindx either.
Just not enough information to go on unfortunately. Many thanks for your help. Maybe there is someone out there who knows about Donald from 222 High Street.
Cheers......
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One thing that might also be worth checking also are the post office directories around 1865 for 222 High Street. Unlike the big cities where an individual address would very often be for a tenement with many people living there, maybe not the same for Elgin?
The National Library of Scotland have brought online many of the Post Office Directories but cannot see anything around that time for Elgin - http://www.nls.uk/family-history/directories/post-office/index.cfm?place=Morayshire This is the closest, 1863, but nothing shows http://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/pageturner.cfm?id=85597821 (I may not be looking in the right bit though!). It may be that Donald Cameron did not appear in directories though, not everyone did.
A better way may be a search of the Valuation Rolls for 1865, see here for background www.scan.org.uk/knowledgebase/topics/valrolls_topic.htm
I understand you are not local ::) but perhaps contacting the relevant local history library via email with a very specific request might help?
Monica
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One thing that might also be worth checking also are the post office directories around 1865 for 222 High Street. Unlike the big cities where an individual address would very often be for a tenement with many people living there, maybe not the same for Elgin?
Unfortunately Elgin High Street has quite a lot of tenements :(
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Well, that will likely not get us very far maybe :-\
I added this post on the deciphering board www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,635636.0.html
Monica
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The Peter Cameron, mason, found above in the 1841 census at Tomintoul, is still there with his wife in 1851. Both are born in Kirkmichael, Peter is still a mason and aged 55.
If he is the right person, his brother would perhaps be born in the same parish. The 1851 census shows a Donald Cameron, aged 59, born Kirkmichael, a farmer in the parish of Kirkmichael (mostly pasture). His wife is Charlotte.
The 1841 census shows this same Donald Cameron at Tombreck, Kirkmichael, as a mason. He has six daughters and one son, Peter. It looks as if the mother has recently died. Charlotte Middleton is a servant keeping house and looking after the children. Donald must (as often was the case) have married her as her age and name fits with the 1851 wife.
If this is uncle Donald, he would have been about 73 when his nephew died and had perhaps seen out a 19 year lease and retired to Elgin.
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The words after her name look like (previously Fine)
Elaine
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Just thinking that it might be a wrongly written Finnie
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Re reply 4 by Skoosh
Achany/Achary?
Could the word be Auchinachie or Auchnie - the first being a surname and place name and the second a surname.
Just a thought!
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Graham, there is also another Peter Cameron, mason by trade, shows on libindx http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp:
NM038193
PETER CAMERON
c. 1792 to 05 FEB 1875
Occupation : MASON
Date of Birth : c. 1792
Spouse's Name : ELIZABETH GORDON
Headstone Ref : Tst45
Date of Death : 05 FEB 1875
Place of Death : TOMINTOUL
Robert's father, Peter, showed as deceased in 1865 :-\
Been up and down the censuses so far and nothing I can see that connects.
About to try all the new surname possibilites from Brevitas, Countryquine and Elaine...!
Monica
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I see from Libindx that Donald Cameron who married Charlotte Middleton died in 1856, so he is ruled out.
Family search shows a Donald Cameron in Elgin, aged 39, in the 1861 census.
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Many more thanks everyone for all your time and effort on my behalf....
I found 222 High St in the 1863 Post Office Directory......inhabited by a James Colman, baker......
Unfortunately the Valuation Rolls for that period don't seem to be available on line yet.
I think I may place a research request with the Moray Family History Centre, they may find something in the Poor Law records. Fingers crossed!!
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I am still puzzled by the words around mother Jane on Robert's death cert. Did you see the comments on www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,635636.0.html
As suggested, you might want to consider contacting SP to request an enhanced image of that section. It can make a big difference on legibility in many cases. SP are very quick to respond to this type of request where writing on certificates may not be very clear.
Monica
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A new lead potentially on Uncle Donald Cameron. See www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,635636.new.html#new
Monica
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Definitely the same, Monica.
What's the lead on the new find?
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There is a Donald Cameron who in 1861 shows as a Grocer living with this family at 259 High Street, Elgin:
Donald Cameron 39, grocer b. Abernethy
Janet Cameron 29 b. Dallas - m.s. Grigor
Margaret Cameron 10
Donald Cameron 8
Duncan Cameron 5
Jessie Cameron 3
Mary Ann Cameron 5 Months
Emilie Innes 17, servant
This couple didn't marry until Dec. 1854, so Margaret and Donald, children above born before their marriage. In 1851, Janet living with her brother and sister in Dallas, with baby Margaret aged 7 mnths.
1851, I think this is Donald (still to follow through more to DC) with his parents....and who I am hoping is the elusive young Robert Cameron who died in 1865, showing as 'son'. Note also Duncan Snr's occupation. Everyone showing here as born in Abernethy:
Duncan Cameron 64, mason master
Mary Cameron 63
Donald Cameron 30 labourer
Duncan Cameron 18 labourer
Janet Cameron 23
Robert Cameron 12, son (...to a woman in her 60's...not impossible...but full of hope!)
Address: Blairgorm, Abernethy and Kincardine, Moray
The second signature from 1863 I have attached on the other post comes from the birth of Joana, daughter to Donald and Janet. Donald still shows as a grocer and living then at 86 High Street, Elgin.
I have got as far as 1871:
Donald Camerson 48 labourer born Abernethy
Janet Grigor 39
Margt Cameron 21
Duncan Cameron 15
Mary Ann Cameron 19
Joann Cameron 8
Address: 15 Duff St, Inverness
Monica
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Duncan Cameron 64, mason master
Mary Cameron 63
Donald Cameron 30 labourer
Duncan Cameron 18 labourer
Janet Cameron 23
Robert Cameron 12, son (...to a woman in her 60's...not impossible...but full of hope!)
Or an illegitimate grandson erroneously listed as 'son' when he should be 'grandson'? It wouldn't be the first time I've seen that.
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1841
Blairgorim, Abernethy
Duncan Camron, 50, Stone Mason
Mary, 48
Margaret, 16
Alexr, 15
Dilnean, 12
Robert, 2
(Maybe need to see the original page)
:-\
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I thought that was the family too, Brevitas. Not a great transcript :-\
Duncan Cameron, master mason, died at the grand age of 90 in 1875 in Abernethy. His wife Mary McKenzie in 1870. Duncan's father was...Peter! I am very happy to see that for where we are so far!
Monica
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1841
Blairgorim, Abernethy
Duncan Camron, 50, Stone Mason
Mary, 48
Margaret, 16
Alexr, 15
Dilnean, 12
Robert, 2
(Maybe need to see the original page)
:-\
Definitely need to view the originals! FreeCEN has the address as Blairgowan (I think it should probably be Blairgorm) and Robert's age as 4. And Dilnean is presumably Duncan, who was just 6 years older 10 years later.
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So first of all we need to find a death for Donald, to make sure he is the son of Duncan Cameron and Mary Mackenzie. Then see if there is a death for Peter with the same parents.
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Got to dash off but throwing these into the mix:
The following baptisms to the couple in Abernethy:
1821 Donald
1822 Ann
1825 Alexander
1827 Jannet
1829 Mary
1832 Duncan
brevitas
(I searched 1810 to 1840)
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There is a possible marriage/banns for Duncan and Mary in 1814 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT5C-DHW Hard to say as the names are not uncommon! I would guess given the age of young Robert that Peter, father born pre 1820s?
emjaye, we had a possible 1861 census entry at the beginning for a 'Robert Gow, 21, ploughman b. Rosskeen, R&C' and working in Moray in an area fitting with some of the addresses you have so far.
I would like to throw in another possibility for 1861, searching now for a Robert Cameron b. Abernethy with the new refs we have above.
Robert Cameron, 25, ploughman b. Abernethy
Address: Upper Aikenway, Rothes, Moray - at the farm of John McIntosh.
This Robert Cameron does not appear in any future census which is a positive thing at this stage!
Monica
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So first of all we need to find a death for Donald, to make sure he is the son of Duncan Cameron and Mary Mackenzie. Then see if there is a death for Peter with the same parents.
Donald was the son of Duncan C. and Mary McKenzie. He died in 1887 in Inverness.
Monica
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Hi
Just to say, if anyone is following him, that the Peter Cameron born Abernethy circa 1817 and living Rothiemay 1841 -> (wife Hellen) is probably not 'our' Peter. I found a death for him and he was illegitimate, son of a Jane Stewart and no father's name given.
brevitas
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Hi All,
This is the reply from SP:
I have taken a look in the register but unfortunately my colleagues and I are slightly at a loss as how to interpret what's written. Jane's surname was obviously unknown to the informant, hence the line after her forename, but it looks as if he has attempted to guess at it and the clerk has written it down in pencil. The word in ink appears to read 'Fine', although whether that refers to the surname of something else we really cannot say. I'm afraid the writing in pencil is too difficult to make out with any certainty, although it does seem to start with an 'F'.
I'm sorry not to have been of more help in this instance.
Regards,
Roslyn Robertson
ScotlandsPeople
National Records of Scotland
New Register House
not much help I'm afraid......
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So everyone is struggling with what is written there. Worth checking to at least confirm that!
Monica
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Hello again,
Having put Jane ? aside for the moment, I have been doing a bit more digging...trying the 'thinking outside the square' approach.
Having found no death record for Peter Cameron pre 1865 in the non Catholic records in SP, I checked their Catholic records and found that a Peter Cameron, born Tombreck, died in Australia (small world moment...) on 3rd July 1862. I checked the Australian death records and found him in Victoria. His occupation is not given, however age is given as 35, born in Banffshire, parents are Donald Cameron, mason and Charlotte. He has been in Victoria 8 years so arrived approx 1854. He was unmarried.
Libindx has his baptism as 18 Apr 1827, parents Donald Cameron, mason of Tombreck and Charlotte Middleton, matching those 1841/51 Census' for Donald & Charlotte. Donald is his father rather than his brother, and died in Tombreck 5th Jan 1856 (also from the Catholic registers). Charlotte died 20th Feb 1874.
I found what looks to be Peter (mason) in the 1851 Census, listed as a visitor in the McGregor household, Auchindrine, Aberdeenshire. The fact that we haven't found him in successive census' would support his going to Australia.
Now, Donald Cameron married Charlotte Middleton 5th June 1821 and their list of children on SP includes Peter, 18th Apr 1827.
Donald Cameron's entry in Libindx has his parents as James Cameron, born abt. 1755, death 13th Nov 1816 and Isobel Stewart, death 11 Dec 1829. James & Isobel's list of children includes Donald, with a brother William.
Brother William's Libindx entry has him marrying one Penuel Middleton 22nd June 1820 and the list of children to William Cameron and Penuel/Jannet Middleton includes a Donald born 18th March 1823. It seems that brother and sister have married brother and sister. Both Penuel and Charlotte's death records list parents as John Middleton & Mary Cameron, although the father is incorrectly named as James on Charlotte's libindx entry.
This could mean though that the Donald Cameron, informant on the death certificate of Robert Cameron (1865) is actually his father's cousin but he has thought it easier to call himself uncle. However, I have still not been able to find his death record.
Does all this sound plausible??
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The 1841 census (as on FreeCen) suggests that Donald Cameron married Charlotte Middleton in or after 1841 and that the children on the 1841 census were by a previous wife.
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The 1841 census (as on FreeCen) suggests that Donald Cameron married Charlotte Middleton in or after 1841 and that the children on the 1841 census were by a previous wife.
I see what you mean, but it's quite common for women in the 1841 census to be listed by their maiden surnames and maybe Charlotte worked as a servant for a local laird? The 1841 census doesn't list the relationships of household members to the head.
The listing on LIBINDX says that Donald and Charlotte were married on 15 June 1821 at Dalavrogat. This is from the Kirkmichael Roman Catholic registers, in other words the same source as SP, so I would be inclined to believe it. LIBINDX also (not surprisingly) lists Peter's baptism in 1827 (suggesting that his age in the census is incorrect).
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Ye, I'm sure that is Charlotte using her maiden name. The marriage record from SP states that "Donald, son of James Cameron in Tombreck and Charlotte Middleton, daughter of Paymaster John Middleton of the ...Regt. were married June 5th 1821"
Charlotte's father was John Middleton, Captain in the 42nd Regiment of Foot.
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Libindx has his baptism as 18 Apr 1827, parents Donald Cameron, mason of Tombreck and Charlotte Middleton, matching those 1841/51 Census' for Donald & Charlotte.
Good to think outside of the box, we all have to when a search is complicated! Main initial comment I have here is the likely birth year of this Peter, around 1827 (he shows as born c. 1829 on that 1851 census you mention, with always the more general ages).
Your Robert's birth year will likely have been around mid/late 1830s going by his age at death in 1865. Even with an 1840 birth for Robert, the Peter above would only have been c. 13 years old :-\
Monica
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Yes, you're right, Monica, when I thought about it afterwards it did seem a bit of a stretch, even though the date of 1827 is for a baptism. So I looked for Peter Cameron, son of William and Penuel Middleton. His brother Donald WOULD be uncle to Robert Cameron.
Coincidentally he died in 1861 and was baptised in 1825, which means he would have been about 15 when Robert was born.
However he is listed a teacher and licentiate of the Church of Scotland, (which of course would not preclude him from fathering a child in his teens) not a mason.
I looked again at the 1851 Census from Auchindrine which I mentioned earlier and there are actually 2 Peter Camerons listed there, slight difference in age, born in Kirkmichael and both being masons. Perhaps this could be the cousins. I suppose there is no reason that one could not later have decided to become a minister.
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My money is still with the family we found in Abernethy for lots of reasons which we have touched on here and on the deciphering board post. A little summary here of some of the things we have found:
We know that Duncan and Mary's son, Donald and family were living on the High Street Elgin at the right time for Donald to have reported Robert's death there in 1865. This Donald showed as a grocer living in Elgin from at least 1861-63. By 1871 at least, the family had moved away to Inverness.
We know from his death cert. that Donald was the son of Duncan and Mary from Abernethy.
We have Donald's signature from his daughter's birth cert in 1863 and also (I think) a matching signature for Robert's death in 1865 for 'Uncle Donald'.
The Abernethy family has a Robert Cameron, in the right age group, showing in the household in both 1841 and 1851. There is also a suitable corresponding entry for a Robert Cameron, with an Abernethy birth place and the occupation of ploughman, on the 1861 census.
I think one confirmation that might help to link everything up would be to find a Donald Cameron, grocer, living at 222 High Street in 1865. Valuation rolls, as discussed, would help with this if someone could help there with a look up....
We have a potential marriage for Duncan and Mary from Abernethy in 1814. We know that Duncan's father was called Peter. It would fit that he would call his first born son Peter, likely born between 1814-21. We pick up on their children with Donald's entry from 1822. Often happens that pre 1855, you have gaps on the registers for lots of reasons (if you are lucky to find anything at all!). Given we cannot see a Peter, mason, in 1841 that fits for this family, he could have died potentially before this year?
All suppositions really at this stage. Hard fact is just the details we have so far on that 1865 death cert.
Monica :)
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I dont have a picture, but I have some old sheets from Abernethy which includes the following stone
Duncan Cameron, w Mary McKenzie, s Peter 21.12.1844 29, s John 3.9.1836
19, s Alex 27.5.1849 23, s Donald ed
Stone has either gone, illegible or I just missed it. Peter died aged 29 years in 1844.
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I dont have a picture, but I have some old sheets from Abernethy which includes the following stone
Duncan Cameron, w Mary McKenzie, s Peter 21.12.1844 29, s John 3.9.1836
19, s Alex 27.5.1849 23, s Donald ed
Stone has either gone, illegible or I just missed it. Peter died aged 29 years in 1844.
Wonderful!
We just need to find him in 1841 now
:D
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And it is for reasons such as this that I love RootsChat ;D Ghostwhisper, thank you from me...I have obsessed on this one ;)
Peter aged 29 at death in 1844 so born c. 1815, so with our guessing hat, likely that 1814 marriage we had is correct and Peter probably first born child/son....which all fits so well!
Monica
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Heartfelt thanks to you all for all your hard work, I am so grateful. The family from Abernethy certainly fits the bill. I will put in a request at the Moray Heritage Centre re that valuation roll.
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emjaye, let us know how that goes please.
Would be great to get that last definitive piece of info, wouldn't it!
Monica :)
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Hello everyone,
Apologies for the delay. The reply from the Moray Heritage Centre was very disappointing. Although I mentioned Robert Cameron's parents Peter & Jane, Uncle Donald and the High St address, all I received was a copy of Robert's death listing in the 'Elgin Courant' and a page of notes about the Harrold family which I already knew. They wanted a further 15 GBP to search for his birth/baptism/census........ !!!!!!! No information on Peter.
However, I have continued to dig......
(Uncle) Donald Cameron died in 1887 in Factory St., Inverness and his wife Jessie/Janet Grigor died earlier in 1879, also in Factory Street.
Parents of Donald and Peter, Duncan Cameron and Mary McKenzie died in Abernethy in 1875 and 1870 respectively.
Duncan Cameron's parents were Peter Cameron and Margaret McIntosh (from both birth and death certificates) and he was born in Abernethy on 3rd July 1796. This Peter Cameron, great grandfather of my original Robert, was a farmer.
So all in all, a great outcome, thank you all for your time and effort on my behalf :)
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They wanted a further 15 GBP to search for his birth/baptism/census........ !!!!!!!
Why not? All this takes staff time, and therefore costs money. £15 won't even buy an hour's research by the time you add in all the overheads, and the birth/baptism/census can be accessed cheaper at Scotland's People.
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my point is, all these things I have already found myself.......
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my point is, all these things I have already found myself.......
So you already had the birth/baptism and census information, and you didn't tell them? What a very good thing that they didn't waste their time duplicating what you had already found for yourself ;)
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yes, actually, I had notified them of parentage details, I didn't pluck them out of thin air.........