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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: BonnieDownUnder on Tuesday 12 February 13 05:22 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
Elizabeth Welsh nee McCallan born c1835 London arrived into Sydney on the ship 'Trafalgar' in 1853 aged 18 years and she married a widower, William Welsh, on 10 Oct 1864 in Sydney (no parents for either persons listed)
They had two daughters, Constance L. b. 1865 and Bertha Annie b. 31 Jul 1867 in Sydney. William, just over a month prior to Bertha's birth, died on 18 Jun at the Tarban Asylum, Ryde.
I don't know what happened to Constance but Bertha, just prior to her 18th birthday, married Walter Arnold Johnston (born 09 Nov 1861 Melbourne) on 08 Mar 1886 at Gore Street, Fitzroy, Melbourne. Their first son Arnold Walter was born in Melbourne 1887 and their subsequent 13 children all born in Sydney.
... but I don't know if Elizabeth re-married, when she died but it seems that she and her 2 ? daughters moved from Sydney to Melbourne. Also I haven't been able to trace her on the C1841 or C1851 in England either.
Any assistance much appreciated thanks.
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Hi Bonnie, As this is your family connection and you have at least some information, can you tell us where this comes from. As she cannot be found on either 41/51 census how do you know you have the right Elizabeth McCallan. Also are you sure of this spelling. Should this be correct how do you know she was born in london in 1835, or is this off a ships record.
Questions I know but?
Neil
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Mc Callan? Have you considered that she may be Irish or Scottish? Have you had any help trying to locate her in 1841 and 1851? There are likely to be misinterpretations, misspellings and variations of that surname, so I'm wondering how extensive your searching was. :)
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Hey Neil, nice to hear from you and coming to my rescue once again.
Spelling of Elizabeth's surname difficult, obviously. On shipping record summary spelt MCLALLAN, but looking at handwriting on the actual manifest I took it to be McCallan, where age shown as 18 years, when ship arrived Sydney 1853, and that she was born London.
Marriage record, 1864, spelt MCLELLAN (I only have a transcription copy and not a copy of the original from NSW BDM) and age shown as 27 years, (and she is a 'spinster') which is two years out if born 1835?
Hi Ruskie ... no, haven't had any help as yet trying to find her on C1841/51 and see above :)
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Elizabeth's surname on the manifest is McLALLAN, and she was born at St Ann's, Blackfriar's, London. Parents James and Ann. Perhaps someone can work out her mother's address.
No. 22 ?land Street, London.
Debra :)
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Bonnie - where did the McCallan spelling come from? Do you have the girls' birth certificates and if so what name did Elizabeth use?
I would not be concerned re the 2 year age discrepancy. Shipping lists are notoriously unreliable, as they were often copied from other information and prospective immigrants often changed age to fit the criteria set up by whoever was paying their passage. It would be my opinion that the marriage cert age may be nearer her real age - but who knows ???
Now, I'll ditch the half hour I've spent on McCallan and try again with the myriad variations of McClelland (I have some family of the same surname and boy, are there some variations!)
Judith
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Hi Judith ... I am very sorry :'( that you spent so much time searching because of my mis interpretation of Elizabeth's surname, I was so sure it was McCallan ...
I must remember when posting a first message, looking for ancestors, that I give different spellings of surnames should I have doubts.
The transcription birth record (not copy of original from NSW BDM) of Bertha Annie Welsh birth, 31 Jul 1867, 399 Pitt St., Sydney shows father William Welsh born Dublin, Ireland with mother, Elizabeth MCLAREN aged 30, born London. I don't have her sister's birth record.
Thanks Debra for the shipping manifest you found for Elizabeth, which I hadn't seen but now found. Obviously this certainly looks like her surname is MCLALLAN
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Gees I dunno now.
I have Eliza born 1834 to parents Mary Ann and John McLallan. They are living at Artillery Lane
Saint Botolph District East London, Middlesex. That is 1851 census. Her mother was aged 50 and her father 54.
Neil
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Elizabeth's Baptism:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V5J8-KVR
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Parents Marriage:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJZD-MYX
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Father's burial:
MCLELLAN James Buonaparte age 44yrs, 17 Mar 1844, Tower Hamlets, Middlesex.
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Elizabeth's siblings:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JMVZ-HYG
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V5JZ-2CG
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N5RW-54Z
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Hello Merlin, Many thanks for all the wonderful information. I have now found Ann McLellan nee Cutts on the C1851 living with her married daughter, husband and family, plus Ann & James's son Edward.
Fantastic to know where Elizabeth came from so only need to find out what happened to her after her husband William Welsh died.
Thanks again, very much appreciated
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I have just had a look at some certificates posted online for this family, in particular Bertha's marriage cert. They have only posted a small portion, but as Bertha was underage at 18 years, the person giving permission for her to marry was a J. A. PANTON, J.P.
I would think this means that her mother was deceased or absent in 1886.
The informant on her death cert was son Robert, and her father is given as -WILLIAMS, occupation: Demolisher, mother unknown, and she was married in Sydney. This indicates that he had little knowledge of his mother's family or past. I don't know how her father went from being a Printer to a Demolisher!!
I see that William and Elizabeth's marriage cert is one which was not reconciled with the church records. Bonnie you really need to contact the Presbyterian church to obtain Elizabeth's parent's names from the church register to be sure you have the right person born in London.
William's death notice says he had 3 children?? Was the other from his first marriage?
Debra :)
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I have just had a look at some certificates posted online for this family, in particular Bertha's marriage cert. They have only posted a small portion, but as Bertha was underage at 18 years, the person giving permission for her to marry was a J. A. PANTON, J.P.
I see that William and Elizabeth's marriage cert is one which was not reconciled with the church records. Bonnie you really need to contact the Presbyterian church to obtain Elizabeth's parent's names from the church register to be sure you have the right person born in London.
Hi there, supporting Debra's suggestion re the mc was not reconciled with church records .... please see the following thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Cheers, JM
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Hi Debra ... Re marriage Bertha Annie Welsh marriage to Walter Arnold Johnston 1886, I certainly didn't think of that angle that Bertha being underage, she would have needed her mother or father permission to marry as we know her father had passed away so it looks like her mother too and therefore JP needed to give authority for her to marry. I will certainly contact the Presbyterian church to see if they have the church records for the marriage of her parents, thanks for that, also JM for the link.
With regards to Bertha's father William Welsh and his first marriage to Christina McIntosh, I found a record on the LDS site; They married 11 Apr 1849 at Wicklow Ireland. They arrived into Sydney on the 'Victoria' 04 Sep 1849 as full paying passengers (interesting to read his comments about the voyage!) William stated his father, 'William Welsh' was residing in Sydney at 'Brickhill' however I haven't been able to find anything on him as yet and this is another thing to track down
I've only been able to find 2 (not 3) children, Eleanor born 1850 NSWbdm # 1221.35, surname spelt WELCH. George (but no luck finding a NSW birth reg.,) but a death notice SMH 13 Sep 1859 page 9 lists the death of George Welsh at 9 Little Gipps St. Surry Hill, aged 15 months, parents William and Christina.
Re death of Bertha Annie Johnston nee Welsh. The informant was my husband's grandfather, Robert Johnston, so as you say, it seems that he and his many siblings had no knowledge of their grandparents.
What I can't figure out what was Bertha doing in Melbourne? Her husband Walter Arnold Johnston was born there and I don't know if he came to Sydney and they ran away together, back to Melbourne ??? and what happened to Bertha's mother ???
I am still sorting out information received yesterday re Elizabeth Welsh nee McLellan's birth and parentage and will do another post soon with what I too have dug up.
Thanks again for your great suggestions and anything else you may think of, I would very much appreciate your input. Bonnie
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Hi Bonnie,
Do we know what name the initial L in Constance's birth index is for?
1702/1865 WELSH CONSTANCE L WILLIAM ELIZABETH SYDNEY
Also where was William Welsh buried? I was thinking maybe if Elizabeth died not long after she may well be buried with him.
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FamilySearch has a transcription of her baptism. The image gives a little more information:
Baptism in the Parish of St Anne's, Balckfriars
1834, 5 Oct. Eliz'th, dau of James Buonaparte and Ann McLellan,
Abode: New Rutland? St, Commercial Road. Father's occupation: cutter (cutler?)
On the same day, recorded on the line above Elizabeth, is
John s/o John and Maria McLellan,
Abode: Shoemaker Row, Father's occupation: cutter (cutler?)
Perhaps the fathers, John and James, were brothers?
Judith
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Im wondering if Elizabeth and daughter Constance may have gone back to England. Maybe Bertha chose to stay here in Australia.
Bonnie is there as address for Bertha at the time of her marriage? I was wondering who else may have been living at that address the same time as her.
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Hi Giblet - Sorry delay replying, had to 'feed my man meat', talking of which, did you see reply from poster Eilleen about 'Mr Bint from the Mint' ;D
I don't have Constance L. Welsh's birth certificate so don't know her middle name.
Burial of William Welsh, 1867; will find out tomorrow if anyone else shares his resting place. Actually it is sad how his death occurred, from 'brain and general debility', which I feel would have been caused by the chemicals in the inks he would have used in this profession; he was a Printer for many years of Bell's Life newspaper in Sydney.
Re address where Bertha was at the time of her marriage? All it states on certificate is that she was from Sydney. The marriage occurred on 8 Mar 1886 at Gore Street Fitzroy Melbourne by a Samuel William Asher, a Congregational Minister. More investigation needed but any suggestions how I go about this?
Like the idea that Elizabeth and Constance may have gone back to England and that Bertha stayed in Australia. I would need to find out if William left Elizabeth money, when he died in 1867, and how much. ???
Judith; thanks your reply. I noticed that too on Elizabeth's baptismal record - interesting, and working on how James and John may have been connected. On Elizabeth's sister (Maria) baptismal record in 1842, James is shown as a 'surgical instrument maker'
Thanks Bonnie
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So far I haven't found any suitable Constances or Elizabeths on the England censuses for 1871, or 1881 but I need to have a more thorough look. I did see John and Maria (parents of John McLellan the child baptised same day as Elizabeth) in later censuses. Both John and Maria were surgical instrument makers also.
Judith
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Haven't tried for Elizabeth but "Constance" is a more uncommon name so have had a trawl through 1901 and 1891 England censuses for a Constance b in Australia but no luck as I've managed to trace most of their marriages and they don't fit. (Of course they could be second marriages so no link to a maiden name). Elizabeth may also have married again so too hard :(
Judith
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Hi Judith ... many thanks your efforts trying to find Elizabeth and Constance on English census records; I too had a search myself and found nothing but with your 'post experience rating', I feel assured that they are not there and need to head down another path.
So I have contacted the Uniting Church archives office with a request to see if they have a Church Record of when Bertha Welsh (daughter/sister of above) married Mr. Johnston in 1886 and await their reply.
Hi Giblet ... I don't have William Welsh's death certificate and now trying to find where he, and his first wife Christina, were buried. Also,with William's death occurring at the Tarban Asylum, I found that the NSW Archives have some records for this institution so a visit there is required. Also if William left a Will, fingers crossed they will have something on that too.
Thanks again, much appreciated your efforts. Bonnie
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Good to see that you have looked as well - so surely with two of us searching without luck she's just not there. I got very excited when I came across a Constance Lucy b Australia about the right time but she was born in Brisbane and checks out to be another Constance. :(
I've tried the same as much as I can with some other indexes but again - no luck. They just seem to have vanished, and we don't know if they stayed in Sydney or not. Seems that they were not present at Bertha's wedding. Elizabeth may have died by then or just wasn't in Melbourne - or, as you said before, perhaps Bertha had struck out on her own (or with Walter)
Was there a newspaper death notice for Bertha? Just thought there may be a clue there :-\
Judith
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Hi Judith, Yes, they seemed to have just vanished into thin air. I have had a reply from the Uniting Church in Victoria re Bertha and Walter's nuptials but they don't hold historic church records and it was suggested that I search in the Australiana section of the Victorian State Library. Problem is that I live 1,000 klms away so was thinking to put up another post if someone would have a look for me, if they should be visiting the Library.
I have Bertha death certificate and no name of mother listed. Only a funeral, not death notice, in SMH 05 Oct 1939.
Unfortunately I didn't get time yesterday to search where her father, William Welsh, was buried.
Thanks again. Bonnie
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No sure if I am sending this note or not. It is the first time I have used rootschat.
I have some information on the Welsh/Johnston family if anyone would like to contact me.
William Welsh was the printer. Johnston was the demolisher married to William's daughter Bertha.
The family state that Constance was married to Billy Hughes, Australian Prime Minister.
Take a look at the biography of Hughes online and you will see that he lived a defacto relationship with a woman named Elizabeth Cutts. It will take some working out but I am now on the right
track.
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Hello avance … welcome to Rootschat
Yes, would really be interested in hearing information you have on Welsh/Johnston family and the connection of Constance with Billy Hughes does sound intriguing. Bonnie
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Elizabeth 'wife' of Billy HUGHES d. 01/09/1906 aged 42.
bur. 03/09/1906 Gore Hill Cemetery CE. D 114.
See also http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/77235118?searchTerm="Elizabeth HUGHES"&searchLimits=l-decade=190|||l-year=1906
The Dubbo Liberal and Macquarie Advocate (NSW : 1892 – 1954) Saturday 8 September 1906
Essie
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Here's a bio reference to Billy HUGHES and Elizabeth CUTTS
Hughes migrated to Queensland in 1884, aged 22. For the next two years he worked in the bush before arriving in Sydney as a galley-hand on a coastal steamer. He boarded in Moore Park, where he and his landlady’s daughter, Elizabeth Cutts began a de facto marriage. Their daughter Ethel, the first of the couple’s six children, was born in 1889. In 1890 the family moved to Balmain and lived in a weatherboard building in Beattie Street in this waterfront suburb of wharves and working class cottages. In 1891 they opened a mixed shop in their house. Hughes did odd jobs, including umbrella-mending, and Elizabeth Cutts took in washing.
In 1894 Hughes worked in outback New South Wales as an organiser for the Amalgamated Shearers Union. Elizabeth Cutts managed the Balmain shop and raised their two infant daughters. Their son had died in 1892, a year after his birth.
These seem to be the children:
Wife: Elizabeth Cutts (common law marriage, d. 1-Sep-1906, three sons, three daughters)
Daughter: Ethel (b. 1889)
Son: William (b. 1891)
Daughter: Lily (b. 1893)
Daughter: Dolly (b. 1895)
Son: Ernest (b. 1897)
Son: Charles (b. 1899)
Ithink it's already been established that CUTTS is the maiden surname of Anne McLellan, mother of Elizabeth and grandmother of Bertha and Constance.
Judith
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This looks like the death reg for Elizabeth CUTTS (HUGHES) with only her mother named as Elizabeth which certainly fits. Age at death, according to the newspaper notices, was 42 thus born abt 1864.
1906 #8331
Elizabeth HUGHES, no name given for her father; mother named as Elizabeth, death registered at CHATSWOOD.
Judith
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:)
Here's a thread that I contributed to, re Billy HUGHES :) it seems there's several RChatters who are descendants :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=247620.0
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
May I commend a book
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/12401369?q=isbn%3A9781740311366&c=book&sort=holdings+desc&_=1398297771264&versionId=44897774
Billy Hughes: Prime Minister and controversial founding father of the Australian Labor Party.
Elizabeth CUTTS and her children with Billy Hughes are documented throughout this book. So to is Mary CAMPBELL and her children with Billy Hughes. The book is well indexed (listing by given names his :- parents, wives, children, grandchildren, inlaw children, nieces, nephews, uncles, aunts and cousins). There is an extensive Bibliography and Notes with sources for each chapter.
The National Library of Australia’s website lists that there are copies of this book listed at 96 public libraries.
Cheers, JM
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JM - thanks for suggestion re the book Billy Hughes: Prime Minister and controversial .... an enjoyable read.
Unfortunately it gives no indication as to when Elizabeth Hughes aka Constance Welsh's mother Elizabeth Welsh nee McLellan passed away.
Constance/Elizabeth, sister Bertha Ann (my husbands ggm) passed away on 03 Oct 1939 and death certificate does not show her mother's name and for father, only '- William'. Bertha was born in Sydney about 6 weeks after her father, William Welsh, died on 18 June 1867
The mystery is why Bertha, (and it seems too her sister, possibly mother), went to Victoria where she married Arnold (Walter) Johnston at Fitzroy in 1886; their first child born there the next year. The family moved to Sydney by at least 1892 as a son Robert death is registered in NSW #1077.
Its a very interesting tale to unravel and look forward to hearing others comments
Bonnie
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On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 4:59 AM, "Pamela Samuels" wrote:
Has anyone established why Constance Welsh changed her name to Elizabeth Cutts and if infact that is correct.
This is my first time on this forum and I am not sure if I have correctly send this message.
Pamela.
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I'm looking into Constance & Bertha..... Bertha was my Great Grandmother (I have a beautiful photo of her & Her husband Walter. Any updated information from anyone would be fantastic.
Is Constance supposedly William Hughes 'common law' wife? Does anyone have any more information.
thanks kindly.
Joanne
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Hi Joanne,
Welcome to RootsChat.
Bertha was my husband's g.grandmother.
Bertha & Arnold (Walter) son, Robert Edward, known as 'Patch', husband's grandfather.
We have a lovely family photo taken in late 1915 of the family which we are happy to share.
Have you seen on TROVE the photo of Bertha & Walter which appeared in The Labor Daily 25 Mar 1936 page 5?
With regards to Constance. We recently attended a get together of my husband's aunts and cousins and the 'family tale' was Constance, who was known as Elizabeth, was Billy Hughes' common law wife.
Bonnie
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Hi Bonnie, thanks for that information. Definitely the same family! I have a beautiful photo of Bertha & Walter should you wish to have it. Would love to see family photos. Not sure how you go about passing out details on this site.
Joanne
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Hi Joanne,
You will need to do one more post (message) to me - you just need to say hello - and we can then share a PM (personal message) so I can send you copy of family photo.
Thank you, would love to have a copy your Bertha & Walter photograph.
By the way, are you on Ancestry?
Bonnie
PS: Do you live in Sydney?
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Hi Bonnie,
Yes I'm on Ancestry..... & live in Thirroul, NSW
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Hi Joanne,
Will send you a PM shortly.
Bonnie
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So one thing is clear... if Constance Welsh was indeed Elizabeth Cutts, (daughter of Billy Hughes' landlady).....then Elizabeth Welsh (McLallan) was the landlady! ;D ;D ;D :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D
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Yes, it is pretty certain that it is looking that way!
Bonnie
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Hi, my name is Vicki
I am related to Elizabeth Cutts she was my grandfather's mother he was Arthur Clifford Hughes stepson of William Morris Hughes he was the prime minister of Australia.
We don't know much about her but I was told that her name was Constance. We believe her mother was Elizabeth and the Cutts was her grandmother's maiden name.
I hope this helps someone.
If anyone has any information on the family l would love to know more
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I'm looking into Constance & Bertha..... Bertha was my Great Grandmother (I have a beautiful photo of her & Her husband Walter. Any updated information from anyone would be fantastic.
Hi, Elizabeth Cutts was my great great grandmother .l would love to hear from you.
My name is Vicki Kilshaw l live in Australia.
Is Constance supposedly William Hughes 'common law' wife? Does anyone have any more information.
thanks kindly.
Joanne