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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Geordie daughter on Tuesday 12 February 13 11:39 GMT (UK)

Title: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Geordie daughter on Tuesday 12 February 13 11:39 GMT (UK)
My late husband's great aunt Elizabeth Cutting married a man called Edward George Landells, who was apparently Australian, and they named their first daughter Adelaide after Adelaide in Australia, so the story goes. Information I found on the web a few years ago gave him as the son of James Douglas Landells of Coburg, Victoria. However, yesterday I found a list of James Douglas Landells' children and Edward wasn't on it. Edward was supposed to have been born in Coburg in 1876, but James Landells has a son Adam James Douglas born in that year. Was Edward a twin,  the son of another Landells, or is there another explanation? I feel there is a family connection, as Edward named his own son Edward George Douglas Landells. (James had a brother named Edward Douglas Landells who later settled in New Zealand and married a Maori.)
Title: Re: Edward George Landells - whose son is he?
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 12 February 13 13:02 GMT (UK)
Hi Geordie,

When and where did this marriage take place?

Edit to add that I see it was in 1900 in South Africa, is that correct?

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Edward George Landells - whose son is he?
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 12 February 13 13:13 GMT (UK)
DEATHS

LANDELLS.-On the 15th April, at his son's residence, Bacchus Marsh, James Douglas, beloved father of Janie,Mary, Grace, James, William, Annie, David, Edward, John and Harry, aged 77 years. A respected resident of Coburg for many years. A colonist of 64 years.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/90577709

His obit:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/90577711

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Edward George Landells - whose son is he?
Post by: Geordie daughter on Tuesday 12 February 13 14:02 GMT (UK)
Hi Debra
Yes, you're right about the marriage being in South Africa. I don't think Edward had any contact with his family in Australia after his marriage, although I don't know for sure. I get the impression the Landells lost contact with the Cutting family in later years, in spite of one of their granddaughters becoming my mother-in-law!

Thank you for the death notice and obituary. Now I just have to figure out precisely where Edward fits in to the picture. I'd dearly love to know why he ended up in South Africa, but unless he left under a cloud, and the fact was locally reported, I guess I'll never find out.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Geordie daughter on Tuesday 19 February 13 10:54 GMT (UK)
I checked the names of James' children on the Death Notice against the list of children I had, and the only one that doesn't appear is Adam James Douglas, so perhaps he did change his name to Edward George, after all.

This week I finally unearthed baptisms for four of Edward and Elizabeth's children. Edward George Douglas, their firstborn, had JAMES LANDELLS as one of his godparents, which indicates that Edward still had contact with his family at that point. (I'm assuming that this would be brother Adam James, born 1868, and not James Douglas Landells.) Edward senior was a stone cutter/mason, by trade, until circa 1910, when his occupation is given as 'police constable,' on the baptismal record of his daughter Millicent. Their daughter Adelaide was actually Dorothy Adelaide, born 1904.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Raylen on Wednesday 20 February 13 10:14 GMT (UK)
Hi Geordie daughter,

Not sure if you have a list of all the births registered in Victoria
to James Douglas Landells and Sarah Singleton.

Jane 1861 Dunolly Reg#16444
Jane McNaughton died 1947 E Bwick age 85 Reg#8198

Mary Margaret 1863 Pentridge Reg#19176
Margaret McDonald died 1945 Carl Nth age 81 Reg#303

Grace Douglas 1866 Pentridge Reg#16978
Grace Waller died 1946 Mornton age 79 years Reg#19116

Adam James 1868 Pentridge Reg#4667
died 1939 Red Cliffs 71 years Reg#17423

William George 1870 Pentridge Reg#4384
died 1943 Coburg 72 years Reg#10889 ( as posted by Sue)

Annie Ada 1872 Coburg Reg#4571
Annie Goodall died 1942 Mornington 70 years Reg#23626

David Henry 1874 Coburg Reg#1370
died 1940 Cburg 66 years Reg#3890

Adam James Douglass 1876 Coburg Reg#8239

John Dallawal 1878 Coburg Reg#14677

Henry [/b]1882 Coburg Reg#1588
died 1960  Age 78 years Reg#9626

There is also this death
William James died 1860 age 70 days
Birth Place Coburg  Victoria

If you want more details on these, just ask  :D

Raylen

Edited to add registration numbers and place of death

Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 20 February 13 10:58 GMT (UK)

There is also this death
William James died 1860 age 70 days
Birth Place Coburg

If you want more details on these, just ask  :D

Raylen

From the Victorian index-

LANDELLS William James
Father James
Mother Sarah SINGLETON
Age 70D
Birth Place:VICTORIA
Year: 1860
Reg Number 853

A small difference, but these things can be important sometimes :D
I cannot explain why your source/reference is different, Raylen, unless it is from a published tree somewhere.

Likewise typing in the index numbers is  often important and helpful for searchers as they may wish to purchase certificates in the long run and the numbers are the first step required in the purchase in Vic and there is a charge to view the numbers.

Sue


Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Geordie daughter on Wednesday 20 February 13 14:01 GMT (UK)
Raylen, thank you very much for going to the trouble of posting the details: I only had the children's births, not their married names (where applicable) or dates of death, so that's a big help. I see three of the males have no date of death, so presumably they died either elsewhere in Australia, or in another country. Also, I read somewhere that Pentridge was later renamed Coburg, but don't know whether this is correct, so I'd be happy to be enlightened.

While unearthing baptisms for Edward's children I came across an entry for the baptism of another Edward, in 1925,  to a John A. and Helen G LANDEL, of Douglas Road in Wynberg and wondered if this might be Edward's brother John D., mis-spelled. Unfortunately the sponsors don't appear to be family (unless they're the wife's relations) so there are no clues there.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Raylen on Wednesday 20 February 13 22:19 GMT (UK)


Hi Geordie daughter,

I have added the registration numbers for the births I posted.
As Sue so rightly points out, these make the purchase of a
certificate easier.

William James died 1860 age 70 days
Birth Place Coburg
From the Victorian index-
LANDELLS William James
Father James
Mother Sarah SINGLETON
Age 70D
Birth Place:VICTORIA
Year: 1860
Reg Number 853
A small difference, but these things can be important sometimes :D
I cannot explain why your source/reference is different, Raylen, unless it is from a published tree somewhere.
Sue

No other source or reference Sue,  just my error  ::)

Raylen

Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 20 February 13 22:36 GMT (UK)
Hi All,
Just in response to your query about Pentridge/Coburg. Yes, they are the same area.  This link may interest you.

http://www.moreland.vic.gov.au/moreland-libraries/services/local-history/history-coburg-pascoe-vale.html

Here is another death of a son listed above by Raylen

LANDELLS Wm Geo
Father Landells Jas Douglas
Mother Sarah  SINGLETON
Death Place COBURG
Age 72
Year 1943
Reg Number 10889

The son John Dallawal Landells is interesting.
(see above birth listed above per Raylen)
I have not yet located his death but did note this death.

John Dalliwell Landells
Age 33
Father's Name William Burn
Mother's Name Sarah Richardson
Registration Year   1875
Registration Place   Victoria
Reg  10697
 
This is 3 years before JAMES LANDELLS and SARAH named thir child very similarly

There are a couple of other deaths to chilldren of WILLIAM BURN LANDELLS and SARAH RICHARDSON and also the death of WILLIAM BURN LANDELLS all in Victoria.

I wonder if you know of a family conection which is hinted at in the naming. ???

Sue
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Raylen on Thursday 21 February 13 00:00 GMT (UK)
A couple of marriages

LANDELLS Jane (Dunolly)
McNAUGHTON Angus (Scotland)
1883 Reg#992

LANDELLS Grace Douglas
WALLER Herbert Malcolm
1921 Reg#9648

LANDELLS Mary Margt (Coburg)
BROWN Jas Habick (Rmond)
1884 Reg#6395

LANDELLS Annie Ada (Coburg)
GOODALL Fred (Leeds)
1896 Reg#3125

Raylen
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: judb on Thursday 21 February 13 06:06 GMT (UK)
Marriage for James and Sarah

1858 Victoria, #4370
James Douglas LANDELLS m Sarah SINGLETON

Edit to add - not sure about the death below.  See the TROVE funeral notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9558854
Adding again - the TROVE funeral notice is for the wife of W G LANDELLS so it would be for Louisa as found by Raylen, below

I think this is Sarah's death, because of the place of death.  There is another LANDELLS family in Geelong at the same time with some of the same names - perhaps related?

Victoria 1900 #12403
Sarah LANDELLS, 56
Died at Coburg, Victoria

Judith
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: judb on Thursday 21 February 13 06:30 GMT (UK)
As I said - there are two LANDELL families in Victoria at about the same time, perhaps related, but separate.

John Dalliwell LANDELLS is the son of the Geelong LANDELL family - Rev William Burns LANDELLS and his wife Sarah RICHARDSON

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5841103
LANDELLS—FORD.—On the 17th inst., at the residence of the bride's father, Punt road, South Yarra, by the Rev. Geo. Tait, John Dalliwell Landells, oldest surviving son of the late Rev. W. B, Landells, Geelong, 
to Isabel Mary Ford, eldest daughter of Mr. Wm Ford of this city.

John Dalliwell LANDELLS died in 1875
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/7421529

Judith
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Geordie daughter on Thursday 21 February 13 09:49 GMT (UK)
Hi Sue, Raylen and Judith
Thanks ever so much for that extra information.

Re the two Johns:
I think, but can't yet prove conclusively, that William Burns Landells and Adam Landells are brothers. Adam also had a son, who died on the journey to Australia, called William Burn Landells, and I originally thought the William Burns mentioned in newspaper reports was another son born in Australia and given the same name, until I came across further details. Both Adam and William Burns were Non-Conformist Ministers at some point, and both were born, as far as I can tell, in Alnwick, Northumberland, around the early 1800s.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 21 February 13 10:50 GMT (UK)
Follow up on Judiths finding

LANDELLS Sarah
Father: Unknown
Mother: Unknown UNKNOWN
Age 56
Death Place Coburg
Year 1900
Reg. Number 12403

Sarah Landells aged 56   at Coburg Cemetery METHODIST: Compartment: A

Also

David Henry Landells aged 66   at Coburg Cemetery METHODIST: Compartment: A Grave No: 338.  30/5/1940

Isabella Callan aged 83   at Coburg Cemetery METHODIST: Compartment: A Grave No: 338. 23/7/1919

Fanny Shalliker aged 78   at Coburg Cemetery METHODIST: Compartment: A Grave No: 338. 9/2/1953


(DAVID HENRY was a son of SARAH (Singleton) & JAMES DOUGLAS LANDELLS.)

Sue
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Raylen on Thursday 21 February 13 10:57 GMT (UK)
Marriage for James and Sarah

1858 Victoria, #4370
James Douglas LANDELLS m Sarah SINGLETON

Edit to add - not sure about the death below.  See the TROVE funeral notice
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9558854

I think this is Sarah's death, because of the place of death.  There is another LANDELLS family in Geelong at the same time with some of the same names - perhaps related?

Victoria 1900 #12403
Sarah LANDELLS, 56
Died at Coburg, Victoria

Judith

Judith,

I think you have the correct death for Sarah.  :D
Sarah LANDELLS
Buried at Coburg Cemetery Meth*A*338 (with her son - as listed by Sue above)
Date of death 9/10/1900
( not with James Douglas who is in Meth*A*457 - same cemetery)

LANDELLS Louisa Evelyn (nee Oates)
died 6/10/1900 is the first wife of
William George Landells. Son of Sarah and James.
She is buried at Coburg Cemetry COE*P*681
William George is buried with his 2nd wife Ada May(nee Cook)
at Coburg Cemetery Meth*B*287

Hope that makes sense.   ::)

Raylen





Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: judb on Thursday 21 February 13 12:00 GMT (UK)
Heavens, what a week for the Landells family -  two trips to Coburg cemetery.  The funeral notice is for Louisa as it is for the wife of W. LANDELLS. 

I can't see George's arrival.  Where did George come from? Alnwick also? Judith
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: matene on Saturday 07 September 13 10:56 BST (UK)
Hi Geordie
I noticed you were wondering who's son Edward George Landells is. I can answer that for you,  Edward is my grand Uncle and his Father is James Douglas Landells and his mother is Sarah Singleton.  James brother Edward (also known as Edward Landells Douglas) who went on to New Zealand and married the Maori woman (whom you mentioned) whose name is Korowhiti Terangi Tuataka is my great grandfather.  Their son Joseph Hikawharawhara Douglas is my mother's Dad and was killed in 1926 when my mother was 6 months old.
From what I know from my mother's family Adam James Douglas Landells and Edward George Landells were twins.  I actually have them down on our family records.  They were born on 24 March 1876 in Coburg, Victoria.
The Landells family originally came from Scotland.  James emigrated on to Australia and ended up in Victoria and settled in the Coburg area.  James Douglas Landells Father was Adam Landells who married Margaret Douglas on 9th March 1832 in Scotland although he was actually born in Alnwick, Northumberland in England.  Some of Adam's descendents took the name Douglas instead of Landells after Margaret.
My GGG Grandfather James Landells (or Edward's Grandfather) on our records his wife is Grace Scot but some new records have come to light recently that have thrown some doubt on whether this is correct.  We have since found a record stating that his wife's name was Jane Burn.  We know that one of Adam and Margaret's children was named William Burn Landells which seems to fit with this latest revelation on James' wife.  We are now thinking that perhaps Grace and Jane may be one in the same but need to do more research to be sure.
I hope this small piece of information has been helpful to you and has shed some light on your question about Edwards Parents.




 
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Geordie daughter on Sunday 08 September 13 10:31 BST (UK)
Hi Matene
How lovely to hear from you! Thank you for confirming that Edward was Adam's twin; at least now I know I wasn't barking up the wrong tree. James and Sarah had another son Adam James Landells, born in 1868, who died - apparently - in 1939, but is this an error, as it seems odd that Edward's twin, born eight years later, was given the same name if the earlier son was still living?

As far as your GGG Grandfather James goes, I have it recorded that he married Jane Burn in 1810 (no other specifics, unfortunately) in St. Michael's*, Alnwick. Jane died on 11 Jul 1824, Bondgate, Alnwick, and James appears to have married a Mary Wann on 29 June 1825, also in St. Michael's. James and Mary appear on the 1841 census with 15 year old Henry Ogle, who I think is likely to be a grandson. I can confirm that James and Jane Burn had the following two children in addition to Adam, as I found their (Wesleyan Methodist) baptisms - Jane and Mary Ann - but I have not followed up their lines. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I suspect that Rev. William Burn(s) Landells of Geelong is another of their children although I have so far been unable to confirm it. It would be good if one of his descendants got in touch with us to compare notes!!

*In case you're wondering why James and his wives married in St. Michael's when they were Methodists: it was a requirement of the time for all couples to be married in the Church of England, regardless of what faith they practised.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: judb on Sunday 08 September 13 13:41 BST (UK)
According to FreeReg James LANDELLS was already a widower when he married Jane BURN, however perhaps this is a transcription error - there is no earlier marriage for him in Northumberland on FreeReg

Northumberland, Alnwick
Church   St Michael Bt
14 Jun 1810
Groom: James LANDELLS, Widower      
Bride: Jane BURN, Spinster
Freereg gives no other details for this marriage.

Perhaps this is the death of his first wife? (Also from FreeReg)

BURIAL, Northumberland,   Alnwick
Church   St Michael Bt
Burial Date:   20 Oct 1804
Ann, wife of James LANDELLS
Surname   LANDELLS
Age   21   
Notes   died 19 Oct 1804, husband's occupation: Joiner
FileNumber   27392

FreeReg also has the marriage to Mary Wann:

Northumberland, Alnwick
Church   St Michael Bt
RegisterNumber   421
MarriageDate   29 Jun 1825
Groom: James LANDELLS, Widower
Bride: Mary WANN, Spinster
Witnesses: Jane DAVISON, Thos PATTERSON
Notes   Lic. ( means wed by licence rather then the calling of banns which was more usual)
FileNumber   27396

You have the death of Jane LANDELLS (Burn) as 10 July 1824.  I wonder if there are two Jane LANDELLS as there was this burial of a Jane LANDELLS in Alnwick- but she was 85 years old according to FreeReg

Northumberland, Alnwick
Church   St Michael Bt
RegisterNumber   1341
Burial Date   14 Jul 1824
Jane LANDELLS
Age   85
Abode   Bailiffgate   
FileNumber   27397

http://www.freereg.org.uk/

Judith


Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: matene on Monday 09 September 13 07:10 BST (UK)
Hi Geordie,
Thank you for your reply.  I really enjoy doing family history and it's great to be able to compare notes so thank you again so much for confirming James' wife as Jane Burns.  I can now rest easy about who my rightful GGG grandmother is.  It had become a subject of a bit of confusion of late so thank you for clearing that up for me. As for the son of James and Sarah,  according to our records there is another Adam James Landells that was born 8 years earlier.  For our family, this had also become a matter of confusion however, in other records of other families on our tree, we have children that have in fact been named after siblings whether dead or alive so I guess it begs the question then whether or not this was the case here but to confirm  I have now just found and printed off the family tree from the website which actually shows two different siblings of James and Sarah's children (which are compatible with what I already have) and they are indeed two separate sons.   
it Shows Adam James Landells as being born on 31 January 1868 and married to Sarah Edith Rankin and it also shows Adam James DOUGLAS Landells being born in 1976 along with his twin brother Edward so from what I can tell the Younger Adam was in fact named after his older brother (weird I know not to mention confusing) but given an extra middle name (Douglas) probably to distinquish between the two of them.  Perhaps they called him by one of his middle names rather than his first name.   Also according to the family tree I have, it says that James Landells and Jane Burn did have a son called William Burn Landells, who was born in Alnwick but died in Geelong.  Their son Adam Landells and Margaret Douglas also named one of their sons William Burn Landells as well.  I hope this has helped you and not confused you and thank you again for the extra information on James Landells second wife Mary Wann I was very grateful to have that information given to me.  I have a cousin who's wife's family runs across the Landells line and she mentioned that she thought that James had married twice but she wasn't sure and now you have confirmed that so thank you again and it was great to hear from you.  Take care Regards Marg (Matene)
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Geordie daughter on Monday 09 September 13 15:49 BST (UK)
Judith, thank you for providing that information in full. Jane's death is intriguing: I might well have the wrong person as the age of death was not shown in my source (Family Search, if my memory serves me - this is going back a good few years and I neglected to record where the info came from!). It could be that our Jane died somewhat earlier in the time frame, as the youngest of the known children was baptised in 1819. Interestingly, James was living at an address in Bailiffgate by the time of the 1841 census, so perhaps that Jane was an elderly relation of his? I did wonder briefly if Jane's age could perhaps have been wrongly interpreted as 85 instead of 35 by the transcriber, but without seeing the original, there's no way of telling.

Re Ann Landells: there are a good number of Landells in Northumberland in the early part of the 19th century, including several called James! Our James was a tailor in 1841, but that's not to say he wasn't a joiner in earlier years, so we can't rule out the possibility of Ann being the first wife. Our James was born about 1778 so he would have been about 26 or so when Ann died.

Marg
Family history is fascinating, isn't it?  I'm very glad to have been of help, although it's worth you checking other sources to make sure of the info I've given you, as Jane's death details may be wrong (see Judith's post)! Thanks for clearing up the confusion about the two Adams: I didn't know the twin had Douglas added to his name so that's a big help. He may well have been known as James.

While trying to find something more on Jane Burn yesterday, I stumbled across information in posts about William Burns Landells and Adam on other sites which will probably be of interest to you, as it certainly was to me!! Someone researching the McKay family put up the following information on William some years ago: born 1811 in Alnwick, died 1871; father James Landells, grandparents Adam Landells (1740-818) of Swinton Hall and Alison nee Scott (1735-1814) of Alnwick. Adam and Alison had the following children: William, Jeannie (Jane? - the names are interchangeable on the Border), Walter, Thomas, Margaret and Gavin. This pretty much confirms, and expands on, the info you have given me, which is wonderful, as I can now add William to my database with confidence.

The details on Adam came up in a very recent post on another forum, so if you Google him it should pop up. It revealed that he was actually gardening at Alnwick Castle, working for the Duke of Northumberland - something I, at least, didn't know - who (very generously) gave Adam £10 when he heard he was emigrating. Adam also acted as a Sunday School teacher at the Sion Chapel in Bondgate where his son James - and probably the other children too - was baptised.There are some snippets from newspapers of the time regarding Adam and his family, which make interesting reading.

Do you or your cousin have any idea why my Edward would have ended up in South Africa, at all? All the Edwards seem to have had itchy feet in the Landells family!!
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: matene on Tuesday 17 September 13 16:20 BST (UK)
Hi again Geordie,
Sorry it's taken a few days to get back to you.  I've had a pretty hectic week and have just now had another chance to get back into my family history and my e-mails.  I read the reply from Judith and did a little bit more digging on Jane and according to the information I have found is that she was actually born on 9 May 1783 and died 11 July 1824 which would have made her 41 years old at the time of her death. Judith was also right about the christening date of Jane and James' youngest child.  This would have been Mary Ann. She was born 29 June 1819 and died 28 April 1841 making her 22 years old at the time of her death so these dates are certainly consistent with the record she has. As for Adam and Alison Landells (Adam being my GGGG Grandfather) they did indeed have the children you mentioned. William, Jeannie, Walter, Thomas, Margaret and Gavin.  I have them all on the records my family have passed on to me just recently and yes on these new records I received Jane is definitely on there so I was pleased as punch to receive those.   
In Regards to William Burn Landells, yes, he was born 9 April 1811 in Alnwick, Northumberland and died 16 February 1871 in Newtown, West Geelong, Victoria so that information is also correct and consistent with what I have as well.   Also, thank you for that little tid bit of information on Adam I was thrilled to learn that.  As for Edward ending up in South Africa, we have no idea why he went there at all.  But you're right they did have itchy feet.  It seemed that they just couldn't keep still.  A trait unfortunately that seemed to pass on to my own family.  I recall as a child my parents couldn't seem to keep still either so I guess that perhaps it's probably in the blood. Anyway thanks again.  It's great to be able to communicate with someone else who knows about the Landells family.  I had spent a good deal of time a number of years ago trying to access information on my Grandpa's family only to hit brick walls but happy to say that the drought did eventually end and the information finally started landing in my court and I have to say that I'm finding it truly enlightening.  Take care Marg 
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Geordie daughter on Monday 23 September 13 09:17 BST (UK)
Hi Marg
No need to apologise about the late reply...as you see I have the same problem. Too much to do, too little time, as they say!! I will private message you in the next day or so, as I'd like to find out more about your 4x great grandparents Adam and Alison (if you don't mind) and I can give you what I have on the South African Edward, if you're interested.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: rkwau on Thursday 03 October 13 05:22 BST (UK)
Currently I am doing some famhis on the Vines (William Burns Landells's daughter Mary Jane married my maternal great great grandmother). Have a bit of info. Looking for info on Adam as he was William's brother.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Geordie daughter on Thursday 03 October 13 08:37 BST (UK)
Hi Rkwau

I'm happy to give you what I have on Adam, although Marg may have more detail on him than I do, as he's in her main line. I should be able to private message you once you've done a couple more posts.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: rkwau on Thursday 03 October 13 11:02 BST (UK)
Thanks Geordie daughter. I have a bit of info re Adam, but I would like to know what his movements were after coming into Adelaide and marrying Elizabeth Dibbs.
And how many children were with Adam after Margaret died on the voyage?
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: westernwombat on Wednesday 15 February 17 12:44 GMT (UK)
Thanks Geordie daughter. I have a bit of info re Adam, but I would like to know what his movements were after coming into Adelaide and marrying Elizabeth Dibbs.
And how many children were with Adam after Margaret died on the voyage?

I'm not sure if this thread is still active, but the information I have is that James LANDELLS and Margaret DOUGLAS had 9 children, William Burns George dying at 11 months old on 19th October 1849 and his mother Margaret died 2 days later on 21st October 1849.  Both were buried at sea off Teneriffe.
I haven't seen passenger lists for the "Douglas" at either end of the journey to Adelaide, so I am not sure how many children arrived in Australia.
As far as I can recall (without looking through some notes), Adam's brother William Burns LANDELLS came to Australia after 1849, and some time after the Rev WB became established I believe Adam moved to Victoria, possibly after the discovery of gold, and at a later time his brother WB allowed him to set up on some land he owned.
Adam's wife Elizabeth Dibbs, who he married in 1850,  died in 1877 - that's quite a gap in what I know.
In 1883, Adam went to NZ (Tauranga) to visit his son Edward Douglas LANDELLS (who would have been 10 years old when arriving in Adelaide - I am not sure when he arrived in NZ, possibly about 1870 ?). Adam died of a heart attack in 1833, and is buried in Tauranga Cemetery. 
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: rkwau on Wednesday 15 February 17 23:11 GMT (UK)
Hello westernwombat, this message is a blast from the past! I completed the Landells famhis (or what I could) a couple of years ago. But thank you for the post. I think I remember being interested in Adam as we were going to NZ at the time and came down to Tauranga (I think).

William Burns Landellis one of my ancestors. His dau married Caleb Vines.

Let me know if you need further info.

Cheers
Rhonda
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: westernwombat on Wednesday 15 February 17 23:31 GMT (UK)
Hi Rhonda
Yes, I know that most of the contributors to this EG Landells thread would have completed that part of their researching.

WB Landells is my "3rd great-grandfather" - an interesting character. SOme years ago, my late mother, in Perth, had some information sent to her by Gary Kent from Victoria - I "inherited" those papers and correspondence. A part of that was the Caleb Vines branch that does involve the Landells centred around Geelong. So I have researched a bit of Vines history as well.
In fact, I have asked about him here at RootsChat.   
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: rkwau on Thursday 16 February 17 04:56 GMT (UK)
Thks Westernwombat...if you want to know my research on the Lnadells/Vines my email is (*) . Yes Gary is a rellie...
R

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to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.

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Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: cando on Friday 17 February 17 07:43 GMT (UK)
Quote
From what I know from my mother's family Adam James Douglas Landells and Edward George Landells were twins.  I actually have them down on our family records.  They were born on 24 March 1876 in Coburg, Victoria.

There are no twin LANDELLS births registered in 1876 in Victoria.

In Victoria all previous issue, both living and deceased, to the marriage are detailed on birth certificates.

From John Dallawill's birth certificate.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: westernwombat on Friday 17 February 17 09:33 GMT (UK)
There are no twin LANDELLS births registered in 1876 in Victoria.

The hand-written list does not include 3 of the children that I have on my data, for James Douglas Landells + Jane Singleton.

This is the correlation I can give -


william james         3 jan 1860  <-- william dead   
jane                 31 aug 1861  <-- jane       17 years
mary margaret        24 nov 1863  <-- mary    ?  14 years
grace douglas        19 jul 1866  <-- grace      12 years
adam james           31 jan 1868  <-- james      10 years
william george       25 dec 1869  <-- william     8 years
annie ada             1 jan 1872  <-- annie       6 years
david henry          19 jan 1874  <-- david       4 years
edward george        24 mar 1876
adam james douglass  24 mar 1876  <-- adam james  2 years
john dallawell        5 aug 1877
henry hunter          7 jan 1882


I hope I have the font that makes this a neat display. [a few edits]

I have checked the Victoria BDM and you are correct - actually, neither of those that I have as b. 24 Mar 1876  appear.

What do we make of that?!
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Geordie daughter on Friday 17 February 17 10:47 GMT (UK)
As with all records I suppose, their accuracy depends on the person recording the details and the person giving them. If the evidence is out there, hopefully it will turn up sooner or later. Interestingly, Edward George Landells's daughter Millicent had twin boys (my mother-in-law's brothers), so perhaps there were twins running through Jane Singleton's side of the family. I have no information on her, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: majm on Friday 17 February 17 10:52 GMT (UK)
re that handwritten list that Cando kindly attached at reply #31. 

To me, that's a snip of the information recorded on the birth registration as noted by Cando as a list of John's siblings.  So, logically  it will NOT have the details for John's YOUNGER sibling, and as it is the document for John's own birth registration, his name will not appear on the list of his siblings.  So there's two of those missing names explained. (John and his younger sibling). 
And as Cando noted there were no twin LANDELLS births registered in 1876 in Victoria, so that's the explanation for the third name not appearing on that list.     

So, from your list westernwombat, it seems likely that the informant for John's birth did NOT know of the earlier birth of twin boys (add, just a year or so earlier than John's birth, but knew of the birth of Adam James in 1876).   

I wonder who was the informant for John's birth?   

From Vic BDM online index :
Registration year 1878, BIRTH, Reg. no 14677
John Dallawal LANDELLS
Father's name James Douglass
Mother's maiden name Sarah (Singleton)

https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj

Adam's bc in 1876 is reference 8239.   Twins are often registered at same time as each other, and allocated consecutive registration numbers.  The online index allows searches by number.  The ref 8238 for births in 1876 is for the surname ELLIOT and 8240 is surname MCDONALD


JM
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: cando on Saturday 18 February 17 00:04 GMT (UK)
I thought I had explained the handwritten list of names from the birth registration of John Dallawill LANDELLS.  The informant was his mother Sarah and she signed clearly as such.   Surely she would know how many children alive and deceased along with their names when registering the birth of John.  I repeat there are no twin birth registrations in 1876 for the LANDELLS in Victoria.  JM has explained clearly about the numbering of registrations.  There is no birth registration for an Edward George LANDELLS in Victoria in 1876.

An image of a birth /registration in Victoria in the 1870's, is a page from the register which has space for five registrations. 

Cheers
Cando

Title: Re: Edward George Landells - whose son is he?
Post by: cando on Saturday 18 February 17 00:18 GMT (UK)
DEATHS

LANDELLS.-On the 15th April, at his son's residence, Bacchus Marsh, James Douglas, beloved father of Janie,Mary, Grace, James, William, Annie, David, Edward, John and Harry, aged 77 years. A respected resident of Coburg for many years. A colonist of 64 years.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/90577709

His obit:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/90577711

Debra  :)


http://www.picturevictoria.vic.gov.au/site/coburg/chs/17239.html

Photo c1920 is of the ten grandchildren of Adam LANDELLS of Northumberland and Coburg.
Dave Landells, Harry Landells, Jack Landells, Edward Landells, William George Landells, Adams James Landells, Grace Landells (Mrs Waller) Mary Landells, Jane Landells and Annie Landells

Adam James [b.1868]appears to be the eldest male.  Adam James Douglas born 1876 appears to be Edward.  Edward appears to be dressed differently and of an earlier era.  Has his photo been added?  Something doesn't look right to me but I'm certainly no expert when it comes to photography.

Cando
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: westernwombat on Saturday 18 February 17 00:50 GMT (UK)
@Geordie Daughter, I have had a look at the South African records via an initial link from FamilySearch
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVS4-5CR7

and noticed that for the birth of several children ( ) the witnesses were Melville Cutting, Katie Cutting, Elizabeth Landells (wife: a Cutting), James Landells, and Caroline Fish.

Does your research of Cutting family yield anything useful? Amongst numerous Cutting born in Victoria, Australia I don't see those above (though led to believe so, from a FS entry).
Also, I'm confused about who this James Landells was. There are so many...
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: majm on Saturday 18 February 17 01:05 GMT (UK)
Hi there westernwombat,

May I ask for your comments re replies #31 to 36 .....

JM
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: cando on Saturday 18 February 17 01:18 GMT (UK)
My additions of the names in the linked photograph reply#36, in blue font.  Copyright prevents me from attaching the photograph.  May I also suggest you purchase their mother Sarah's death certificate as all the issue of the marriage both living and deceased would be detailed.

Where do you find the children you have detailed below, are from James Douglas LANDELLS and Jane SINGLETON?  According to my resource which is the same as the online VIC BDM, the parents are James Douglas LANDELLS and Sarah  SINGLETON.

Quote


The hand-written list does not include 3 of the children that I have on my data, for James Douglas Landells + Jane Singleton.

This is the correlation I can give -


william james         3 jan 1860  <-- william dead   
jane                 31 aug 1861  <-- jane       17 years     Jane
mary margaret        24 nov 1863  <-- mary    ?  14 years Mary
grace douglas        19 jul 1866  <-- grace      12 years   Grace -Mrs WALLER
adam james           31 jan 1868  <-- james      10 years Adam James
william george       25 dec 1869  <-- william     8 years    William George.
annie ada             1 jan 1872  <-- annie       6 years    Annie
david henry          19 jan 1874  <-- david       4 years    Dave
edward george        24 mar 1876
adam james douglass  24 mar 1876  <-- adam james  2 years  Edward
john dallawell        5 aug 1877                                     Jack
henry hunter          7 jan 1882                                   Harry

     westernwombat

Cando
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: westernwombat on Saturday 18 February 17 02:10 GMT (UK)
Hi there westernwombat,

May I ask for your comments re replies #31 to 36 .....

JM
#36 - I think the photo is genuine
[ edit - internet connection problems]
The others - the handwritten images and following explanation, photos of course raise the question of changed names and the non-existence of twins. I think it also re-poses the initial topic - "whose son is he?". I'm not sure.
Possibly the information from South African records could clarify - but I have only looked at the few children I mentioned above, and a link I gave shows another (Hilda Sauerman LANDELLS) that I know nothing about.

Why do you ask?
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: cando on Saturday 18 February 17 03:31 GMT (UK)
The 'handwritten images' are from the Victorian BDM Registers which were handwritten in that era.  Do you not understand about the Victorian certificates.  You stated you lived in Melbourne in one of your earlier posts.

Of course there were no twins registered in 1876.

The death notice of Sarah gave ten children one of which was named Edward.  I have already suggested that her death certificate would name issue of her marriage with James.

Quote
Why do you ask?
  Why not....we are all attempting to help and that's what we do on here on rootschat.

Cando
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: westernwombat on Saturday 18 February 17 03:46 GMT (UK)
sorry, @cando - I'm not obtuse. I understood that from well before #31 post. Not further explanations needed.  ;)
Title: Re: Edward George Landells - whose son is he?
Post by: Dundee on Saturday 18 February 17 04:05 GMT (UK)

Edward appears to be dressed differently and of an earlier era.  Has his photo been added?  Something doesn't look right to me but I'm certainly no expert when it comes to photography.

Cando

That photo certainly looks altered to me.  His jacket lapel should be behind the shoulder of the man to his right, not in front.  He is also a different colour and too big.

It wasn't unusual to add missing or deceased people to portraits.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: cando on Saturday 18 February 17 05:51 GMT (UK)
Quote
I'd dearly love to know why he ended up in South Africa, but unless he left under a cloud, and the fact was locally reported, I guess I'll never find out.

Perhaps this is the reason he left Australia.

Victorian Police Gazette 17 Jun 1896  Page#179
DESERTERS OF WIVES AND CHILDREN

Edward LANDELLS is charged on warrant for deserting his illegitimate child by Elizabeth Harris, 350 Weston Street, Brunswick, at Brunswick on 11th inst.  Description - 20 or 21 years of age, 5 feet 10 inches high, medium build, fair complexion, fair hair and small light brown moustache only, large blue eyes; generally wears a brown suit, sometimes a boxer hat and other times a brown felt hat.  12 Jun 1896.

This is possibly the birth reg of that child

HARRIS Clifford
Father - blank    Mother Elizabeth HARRIS
At Carlton  1896  Reg#1889


Cando
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: majm on Saturday 18 February 17 06:11 GMT (UK)
... Why do you ask?

I asked simply because to me you were overlooking or by-passing the posts that addressed a significantly valid document that gave you quality answers to the question you posed.  You see, to me a Victoria birth certificate is a primary source containing first hand information from a parent about themselves and their child/children.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369963.0  and
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html

I did NOT consider you obtuse.   :)

I too see that photo as a composite,  to me there's a difference in the scale, colouring, lapel placement etc. 



JM
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Dundee on Saturday 18 February 17 06:32 GMT (UK)
....not to mention the age comparison with his supposed siblings.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: majm on Saturday 18 February 17 06:36 GMT (UK)
The posy in the lapel seems out of place too.

Is there any indication that he returned from South Africa for any family reunion or similar? 

JM
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: cando on Saturday 18 February 17 12:00 GMT (UK)
I posted a request for opinions on the 1920 photograph on our Old photographs, restorations etc board. 

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=765475.0

Cheers
Cando
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Geordie daughter on Saturday 18 February 17 15:16 GMT (UK)
Cando, I think you may have hit the nail on the head with your newspaper clipping from the Police Gazette. Edward may have been regarded as the black sheep of the family because of this incident, given that they were staunch Methodists, and perhaps this is why he is so difficult to pin down. Perhaps he was "edited out" of family recollections at some stage then reinstated later?

I have James Douglas Landell's wife down as Sarah Jane Singleton on my database, but this is open to correction as I have very little other information on her.

Westernwombat and JM: Edward George Landells married Elizabeth Cutting who was South African-born and bred, and the sponsors at their children's baptisms were mostly relations on her side of the family. I'm not aware of there being any Australian Cutting relatives. As far as contact between the families goes, a James Landells is named on the baptism of the eldest child, Edward George junior, but this could be Edward's possible twin brother Adam James Landells, rather than the father James. After that point the Landells don't seem to have featured in family events, so perhaps there was no further contact. Edward senior died in 1952, several years before my late husband was born, and his family appear to have subsequently distanced themselves from the Cutting side, which is why we had so very little information on him.

As far as the photo goes, there is another pic of Edward on that same site, on his own in a slightly different pose but with the same buttonhole, so it's probable that his image was added to the group photo for one of the reasons Debra suggests.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Geordie daughter on Saturday 18 February 17 15:34 GMT (UK)
Just had a thought: the picture of Edward may have been taken at his wedding in South Africa in 1900, hence the buttonhole. The photo experts would know whether his clothing tallies roughly with that date, I expect. Baby Edward was born just nine months later, so James Landells may have been present at the wedding too, although he does not appear as a witness on the marriage entry. If he was only present at the baptism, he may have been given a copy of the photo to take back to Australia with him at that point.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: majm on Saturday 18 February 17 22:33 GMT (UK)
Edward George was NOT a twin.   I can clearly see this from the first hand information recorded on John Dallawal LANDELLS birth certificate, with the informant as his mum, Sarah, (snippets showing this gleaned from images of that official civil registration and posted earlier in this thread).   

May I support the notion that Edward George became known by that name, but that his birth was perhaps registered with the given names of Adam James Douglass.   

It is still not illegal in Australia for any person to become known by a different name that was not recorded on their birth registration.   It was certainly a great deal easier in the 19th century for that change to occur without any formal paperwork.   

To me, it is quite logical that James and Sarah LANDELLS son Adam James would have retained his name, and that his younger brother (Adam James Douglass) would have become known by another name to distinguish the two lads. 

Does anyone have the Vic BDM 1882 birth registration for Henry?  If so, what names are recorded for his siblings?  .... #1588.  I would expect it to include all his older siblings.

JM
   
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: majm on Sunday 19 February 17 00:07 GMT (UK)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/200547005 The Age 4 March 1878
Adam James Douglas LANDELLS, a child two years of age, residing with his parents at Coburg, was admitted to the Melbourne Hospital on Saturday, suffering from a fractured thigh, caused by his falling over a heap of onions while running about his father's yard.

JM

Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: cando on Sunday 19 February 17 02:56 GMT (UK)
And in the Coburg Leader Edward LANDELLS, a telegraph messenger, a witness at an enquiry into a death in 1892.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66899821

Photo of Sarah LANDELLS nee SINGLETON 1875
http://trove.nla.gov.au/version/13161064

Bill and Dave LANDELLS c1900 - rabbiting
http://trove.nla.gov.au/version/14210640

Dave LANDELLS 1906 - ferreting
http://trove.nla.gov.au/version/13163810


Cando

Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: judb on Sunday 19 February 17 04:10 GMT (UK)
You said that you didn't have much information about Sarah Jane SINGLETON.  You may already have this, so apologies if I'm telling you what you already know.

The Australian Birth Index has two entries for a Sarah Jane SINGLETON, with slightly differing details which would be explained by the fact that Victoria was part of NSW until 1851

NSW 1843, #V18433252 27A, registered Melbourne, New South Wales, Australia
Sarah J SINGLETON   
Parents: Ralph Singleton, Jane

Victoria, 1843 #13559
Sarah J SINGLETON   
Parents: Ralph Singleton, Jane
Birth Place:   Brunswick, Victoria

There is are a couple of on-line trees which have photos of Sarah and James Douglas LANDELLS.

Would you like further information?

Judith







Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Dundee on Sunday 19 February 17 05:20 GMT (UK)
The whole name thing is quite intiguing.  I suspect that Adam James born 1868 was not aware of his registered birth name until later in life.  He is recorded as just James right through to the time of his marriage and the births of his children.  Electoral rolls show him as mostly James, sometimes 'James Douglas' and then he suddenly starts using 'Adam James' in 1926.  Even with the flexibility of names it seems odd that he would start using his birth name at nearly 60 years of age.

And in the Coburg Leader Edward LANDELLS, a telegraph messenger, a witness at an enquiry into a death in 1892.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66899821

Cando

I don't know, he appears to still be known as Adam James in July 1892 when he would have been aged 16.

Two boys, the sons of the late postmaster of Coburg, went out with their guns on Saturday, and worked along the Merri Creek. The eldest, A. J. Landells, brought down a rabbit, and when picking it up, a sharp-pointed knife which he carried in his pocket, entered causing a most painful wound. His brother, terribly frightened, ran for help, and fortunately alighted on a hunting party, amongst whom was a doctor. The medical huntsman staunched the poor boy's wound, and had him removed to his home, where he lies in a very bad state.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66900379

I would want to see the baptism records for the LANDELLS children, particularly the younger ones.


Debra  :)
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: majm on Sunday 19 February 17 05:47 GMT (UK)
I think there's two lads that are confusing us at the moment...  I think there's Adam James (Jim) and Adam James Douglas.   I can see that at least one online tree has confused these two and assumed they are one.   

1868 Adam James (Jim) LANDELLS birth :  #4667
1876 Adam James Douglas LANDELLS birth : # 8239

I cannot find a VIC death for the lad born in 1876  ;D

JM
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: majm on Sunday 19 February 17 05:50 GMT (UK)
 :)

Is this Adam James (1868, Jim) marrying in Victoria in 1900 :

Jas LANDELLS and Sarah Edith RANKIN #1150

JM
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: majm on Sunday 19 February 17 05:56 GMT (UK)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12448335 18 April 1940
Probate notice Adam James LANDELLS
death 3rd November 1939

Vic BDM death 1939
Adam James LANDELLS
Father's name Jas Douglas
Mother's maiden name Sarah (Singleton)
Reg. no 17423

JM

Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: cando on Sunday 19 February 17 06:30 GMT (UK)
I don't know why I am frustrated with this but commonsense tells me that the child born 1876, was known as Edward.  There was no twin.  Mother was informant and signed as such ::)

And his mother called him Eddie!!!!  Hoorah.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: cando on Sunday 19 February 17 06:34 GMT (UK)
James and Sarah LANDELLS lived at Coburg and then by 1919 were in Ouyen where he was still James and 1926 enrolled to vote as Adam James living on a 'block' at Red Cliffs where he died.  Possibly the person accepting his enrolment at Red Cliffs asked the 'right' questions eg your full name.

Cando
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: majm on Sunday 19 February 17 06:40 GMT (UK)
I had intended to spend some of my fh pennies tomorrow and download that birth certificate. 

Eddie, 6 years, as per his own mum (when registering Henry in 1882). 

Many thanks Cando.

JM

Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 19 February 17 08:04 GMT (UK)
James and Sarah LANDELLS lived at Coburg and then by 1919 were in Ouyen where he was still James and 1926 enrolled to vote as Adam James living on a 'block' at Red Cliffs where he died.  Possibly the person accepting his enrolment at Red Cliffs asked the 'right' questions eg your full name.

Cando

When the couple registered this child in 1913, he used just James LANDELLS.

LANDELLS Noel Douglas
Father Jas
Mother Sarah Edith RANKIN
Birth Place BRUNSWICK NORTH
Year 1913
Reg.  1300

This man is deceased and buried at Red Cliffs.
Sue

Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Geordie daughter on Sunday 19 February 17 09:57 GMT (UK)
What a confusing family they've turned out to be. At least you've found solid evidence that Edward  was officially listed as one of James and Sarah's children and that he was born in 1876, Cando, for which many thanks! Hopefully this will help present and future Landells family researchers, too. The existence of Adam James Douglas Landells remains a mystery for the meantime.

Judith, thank you for Sarah's birth entries - somewhere along the line I'd come across a birthdate and place of 11 December 1841, Coburg, Victoria, for her (which clearly differs from the birth registration info you've given me), but no details of her parents. The entries appear to back up her being named Sarah Jane Singleton, hence her being referred to as either Sarah or Jane depending on the source.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: cando on Sunday 19 February 17 11:14 GMT (UK)
I don't see a confusing family at all.  Wouldn't be the first time a child wasn't known as the name used at birth registration....and won't be the last.  I have a niece who didn't like her birth name so announced when she was nine or ten she wished to be known as ***** and she is still is.   She is in her late forties now.

Adam James Douglas LANDELLS born 1876 whose family called him Edward born 1876.  Surely you can see that.  Possibly James and Sarah decided to call him "Eddie' to avoid confusion with Adam James his eldest brother.  So there is no mystery.

There is more about Sarah available if you want the info.

Cheers
Cando
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Geordie daughter on Sunday 19 February 17 13:02 GMT (UK)
The Landells certainly do like to reuse the same names through several generations and across the branches, which can lead to confusion. I've so far mostly concentrated on James's family and his direct ancestors as the Landells aren't a main line of my husband's so I haven't (yet) had the situation where two cousins of the same sex born around the same time in the same area are given the same names. I've had that a few times in other trees and it takes a while to untangle them.

If it's no trouble, the extra info about Sarah would be lovely, thanks, as it gives a fuller picture.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: westernwombat on Sunday 19 February 17 22:05 GMT (UK)
What a confusing family they've turned out to be. At least you've found solid evidence that Edward  was officially listed as one of James and Sarah's children and that he was born in 1876, Cando, for which many thanks! Hopefully this will help present and future Landells family researchers, too. The existence of Adam James Douglas Landells remains a mystery for the meantime.

Judith, thank you for Sarah's birth entries - somewhere along the line I'd come across a birthdate and place of 11 December 1841, Coburg, Victoria, for her (which clearly differs from the birth registration info you've given me), but no details of her parents. The entries appear to back up her being named Sarah Jane Singleton, hence her being referred to as either Sarah or Jane depending on the source.

Sarah Jane SINGLETON
born 11 Dec 1842 Coburg -- this would require registration in 1843
died  7 Oct 1900
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: majm on Sunday 19 February 17 23:08 GMT (UK)
Sarah Jane SINGLETON
born 11 Dec 1842 Coburg -- this would require registration in 1843
died  7 Oct 1900

No it would not require registration in 1843 for an 1842 birth, as Victoria had not yet commenced civil registration because it had not yet been separated from New South Wales.     At the NSW BDM online index there's the following BAPTISM indexed for 1843:

Volume 27A, line 3252  (Vol 27A is C of E)
Sarah J SINGLETON parents as Ralph and Jane.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCN-FQX  Sarah Jane born 10 December 1843, baptised St James, Melbourne, Christmas Day 1843.

NSW civil registration commenced in March 1856.   Victoria was separated from NSW in 1851.

Vic BDM online index has following for 1843 under the heading birth :
Sarah Jane SINGLETON, parents as Ralph and Jane #13559
It will be a record of her baptism.

ADD
My older brother (born late 1930s, NSW) chose to change his given names and his surname while still at school.  He did not need to complete any paperwork at all, and when marrying, he married using those 'new' names.  His children carry that 'new' surname.     

My second cousin (born 1918, NSW) also chose to change his surname, albeit when he had completed his schooling, and when he married he too married using that 'new' surname.   His NSW marriage registration has 'endorsements', ie changes made to it after the registration was processed.   His wife had provided information about her parents, but it was not correct, and so several weeks after the marriage the newly wed couple went along to the registrar and 'fessed' up.   And then the next week, the newly wed couple returned and 'fessed' up that the groom's parents details were also wrong.   So there's two formal endorsements, changing all the details about the four parents on that one 1940s marriage cert.   

Of course, those two male relatives have discovered that in this century they need their own marriage certificates to prove those name changes as today's computerised systems and the current employees simply cannot comprehend that in past decades males changed their names.


JM
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: majm on Sunday 19 February 17 23:37 GMT (UK)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKN2-8XCT
Coburg Pine Ridge Cemetery
Sarah Jane Singleton LANDELLS

http://www.gmct.com.au/deceased-search/ 
Sarah LANDELLS

JM
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: judb on Monday 20 February 17 00:17 GMT (UK)
Death of Sarah Jane's father Ralph SINGLETON, March 1862
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5711464
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5711529

There is also a will for Ralph which gives the name of his farm as "Bolenbroke" which is the same place of residence given by Sarah in registering one of her children according to the snippet posted by Cando.
prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54

Judith
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: cando on Monday 20 February 17 00:27 GMT (UK)
Sarah Jane SINGLETON
born 11 Dec 1842 Coburg -- this would require registration in 1843
died  7 Oct 1900


Not correct.  Sarah Jane SINGLETON was baptised at St James Church, Melbourne - no civil registration in Victoria until Jul 1853.

The parish record was handed, as required by legislation, to the Victorian BDM Registry for recording.  This is a parish record of Sarah's baptism.  I have a CD with images of early bdm records sadly doesn't want to load for me today.  I'll try later.

Baptism
SINGLETON Sarah Jane
Father Ralph  Mother Jane
At Brunswick  1843    Reg#13559
Denomination - Church of England, Parish St James, Melbourne  Fiche#275

Siblings
Baptisms
SINGLETON George
Father Ralph  Mother Jane
At Merri Creek  1841  Reg#12657
Denomination - Church of England, Parish St James, Melbourne  Fiche#269  Died 1862.

SINGLETON Betsy
Father Ralph  Mother Jane
At Merri Creek  1847  Reg#15431
Denomination - Church of England, Parish St James, Melbourne  Fiche#286

SINGLETON Ellen
Father Ralph  Mother Jane
At Merri Creek  1847  Reg#15432
Denomination - Church of England, Parish St James, Melbourne  Fiche#286

SINGLETON Jane
Father Ralph  Mother Jane
At Moonee Ponds  1853  Reg#18191
Denomination - Church of England, Parish St James, Melbourne  Fiche#302

SINGLETON Mary Anne
Father Ralph  Mother Jane
At Moonee Ponds  1853  Reg#18192
Denomination - Church of England, Parish St James, Melbourne  Fiche#302   

SINGLETON William
Father Ralph  Mother Jane
At Moonee Ponds  1855  Reg#18950
Denomination - Church of England, Parish St James, Melbourne  Fiche#307

And his civil registration
SINGLETON William
Father Ralph  Mother Jane HAWBISON
At Moonee Ponds  1855  Reg#3191
 
SINGLETON Robert
Father Ralph  Mother Jane ROBINSON
At Pentridge  1860  Reg#12553

Other surnames recorded for Jane were OBBERSON, ORBISON and ALLBISTON.

Their arrival as Assisted Immigrants - Index at Public Record Office of Victoria
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=24
SINGLETON Ralph 27, Jane 25, Thomas 7 and Samuel 3 arrived Jun 1841 on the FRANKFIELD  1/6    

From the Cheshire Parish Records database - it appears that Ralph was married previously to have sons aged 7 and 3 on arrival in Jun 1841.  I think bachelor in this instance means not married.  Of course the children may have been Jane's.

http://cgi.csc.liv.ac.uk/~cprdb/
SINGLETON Ralph, bachelor, full age, joiner, father John, occupation labourer. Groom signed.
ALLBISTON Jane, spinster, full age, father Thomas occupation labourer.  Bride marked with a X
25 Dec 1840.

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Marriages Dec 1840   
SINGLETON    Ralph    Northwich    19/188
ALLBISTON Jane         Northwich    19/188    


Jane's death registration has rather odd information.  Wonder who was the informant?
SINGLETON Jane
Father Ralph  Mother Jane ORBISON
1860  48 years  Born Moonee Ponds??  Reg#7762

SINGLETON Ralph
Parents unknown
1862  51 years Born Cheshire  Reg#1368 


Buried at Melbourne General Cemetery - Church of England Section K   Grave#349

Sacred to the memory of
Jane SINGLETON died 19 Aug 1860 age 48 yrs
Ralph SINGLETON died 10 Mar 1862 age 51 yrs
also their children Mary Ann died 2 Apr 1855 age 2 yrs
George died 13 Jun 1862, age 22 yrs.

Ralph's will was probated and has been digitised.  Often slow to download.
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54

To  my daughter Sarah Landells, I will and bequeath twelve acres of Land to be taken from that part of the cultivated portion of my farm at Bolingbroke, most convenient to my son Robert's portion of land.

Cando

Apologies for any duplication of information.....lots of interruptions today.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: judb on Monday 20 February 17 04:33 GMT (UK)
The image for the marriage of Ralph SINGLETON and Jane ALBISTON shows some extra detail - the marriage took place on Christmas Day 1840, at the parish church of Davenham in Cheshire.  Jane's sister Frances was married to John BOSTOCK on the same day.  Witnesses for both marriages were Thomas BUTLER and William HORTON.  The spelling of the women's surname is ALBISTON on this document.  All parties were resident at Stanthorn.

The PROV immigration records show a John BOSTOCK on the same voyage as Ralph and Jane but no Frances.  Age given for this John BOSTOCK is 19 but the marriage record says he is of full age (over 21) 

The immigration records have a discrepancy -
The image for the Victorian record at PROV shows
Ralph SINGLETON, 27, carpenter, can read,
Jane, 25, housemaid, can read, and the children James (Thomas?) 7 1/2 and Samuel, 3 all from Cheshire.

The image of the NSW immigration record shows his name as Joseph SINGLETON and the elder child as James.  This image is easier to read than the PROV one, so I think the elder child's name is James but the forename for the adult is definitely different.

Looks as though Jane's sister and husband did come with them - NSW immi records show
John BOSTOCK, 19, Labourer, can read and write
Frances BOSTOCK, 18, house servant, cannot read or write.  Both from Cheshire, both Protestant.

Another record for this voyage (Frankfield arr Port Phillip 1843)
is for Thomas BUTLER, 29, labourer and his wife Ann, 28, with children Martin 4 and Mary 1 also from Cheshire.  A Thomas BUTLER was a witness at the ALBISTON sisters' weddings.

Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: judb on Monday 20 February 17 04:51 GMT (UK)
Sorry - already posted by Cando

Victoria, Australia, Cemetery Records and Headstone Transcriptions, 1844-1997 has this:

Cemetery:   Melbourne, section K, Grave Number 349, Religion   C-E
Sacred to the memory of Jane SINGLETON died 19 Aug 1860 age 48 yrs
Ralph SINGLETON died 10 Mar 1862 age 51 yrs
also their children Mary Ann died 2 Apr 1855 age 2 yrs
George died 13 Jun 1862, age 22 yrs.

Goodness me - there are some on-line trees with some very suspicious information.  ::)

Judith

Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: westernwombat on Monday 20 February 17 05:41 GMT (UK)
Some months ago, I followed the Singleton/Orbison/Allbiston etc trail to Cheshire and concluded I was on a wild goose chase, misled by some Family Search trees (many that I see are poorly sourced or unsourced). I need to reconsider.

Concerning name changes: Family talk was that my grandmother was born at sea (the same day that Queen Victoria died, so her middle name was Victoria), off Albany in Western Australia - and as far as my family knew, nothing was recorded for that birth.
Apparently, at a later date (1913), documentation was required, and her mother Emily Landells nee Sparrow obtained that from the shipping company.
In part, the Shipping Master wrote:
'The official log book of the S.S. " Marloo" states that a daughter was born to Mrs Emily Lansdells at sea, on 22nd Jany. 1901but the name of the child is not given. I would (hand written insert: advise) you to write to the Registrar for Births, Deaths, and Marriages, Albany where I understand the birth was registered.'
This typewritten letter was from the Shipping Master, Sydney, dated 6th March 1913. I discovered it amongst family papers only recently - I had found nothing in the Western Australian historical BDM. But I haven't pursued further the reference to the Albany Registrar. (The above is at a tangent to this topic, of course.)
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: cando on Monday 20 February 17 05:58 GMT (UK)
I think you do need to re-consider the SINGLETON/ALBISTON trail in Cheshire.

I don't know why you rely on submitted information on familysearch.org.  There are lots of resources available to pursue your own research.  Far more satisfying to do your own research and if there are errors you can only blame yourself ::) ;D :P

Births at sea should be recorded at the next port of call....well that is  my understanding of civil reg in that era.  Send copies of your documentation to WA BDM's for a comment....or two!!

Cando
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: cando on Monday 20 February 17 06:03 GMT (UK)
Victoria, Australia, Cemetery Records and Headstone Transcriptions, 1844-1997 has this:

Cemetery:   Melbourne, section K, Grave Number 349, Religion   C-E
Sacred to the memory of Jane SINGLETON died 19 Aug 1860 age 48 yrs
Ralph SINGLETON died 10 Mar 1862 age 51 yrs
also their children Mary Ann died 2 Apr 1855 age 2 yrs
George died 13 Jun 1862, age 22 yrs.

Goodness me - there are some on-line trees with some very suspicious information.  ::)

Judith


Just for the record my transcription, reply#70, was from my own resource.

Cando
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: Geordie daughter on Monday 20 February 17 15:39 GMT (UK)
Thanks to all of you who have gone to the time and trouble to dig up the info on Sarah and her parents. I suspect I am going to be kept extremely busy on the Landells/Singleton/Cutting lines over the next couple of weeks!
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: judb on Tuesday 21 February 17 00:16 GMT (UK)
Apologies again - in my comment about wrong information on family trees I was not implying that wrong information here on Rootschat had been copied from a tree.  I know that the superb experienced researchers here on Rootschat use primary sources or make very clear that comments are just comments.

Westernwombat I'm interested to know why you gave up the Cheshire connection.  It seems to me that the marriage 'fits' perfectly, particularly given that the names are not common and that Jane's maiden name is more or less confirmed in the registrations for her children.

Judith
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: judb on Tuesday 21 February 17 00:26 GMT (UK)
Jane SINGLETON's sad death, 19 August 1860

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/5688416

Judith
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: majm on Tuesday 21 February 17 00:32 GMT (UK)
Thanks to all of you who have gone to the time and trouble to dig up the info on Sarah and her parents. I suspect I am going to be kept extremely busy on the Landells/Singleton/Cutting lines over the next couple of weeks!

And may I also add a thank you to Cando for purchasing some Vic BDM official documents.   :) 

JM
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: anicalouw on Saturday 14 April 18 09:51 BST (UK)
This is amazing!! I am the great grand daughter of Edward George Landells born March 24 Coburg Victoria Australia, married to Elzabeth Cutting, he is buried in Kalkbaai Western Cape South Africa. His daughter Adelaide Dorothy  married my grand father Hermanus Petrus Bosman Louw ( born 18/06 1892) from the Strand. This has been the most difficult part of my research. They had 4 children my father was Eric Edward Lionel Louw. He never introduced us to his grandparents that lived in the same town!!!! But since my Mother's death we found  a letter in which she says that she knew his grand parents, that they were Australian. They had one son and daughters . Everything on my father's side is a bit dodgy. He never  wanted to talk about them. His Mother Adelaide apparently did go back to Australia for a while and dumped the children with the Bosman family, and I think this is where the rift started. My father felt abandoned. He had two sisters Myra and Betsy ( who changed her name to Adelle and is still alive, had numerous husbands and I knew only one of her numerous children who were adopted by Myra) and a brother Eslin. According to gossip she, Adelaide, came back pregnant from Australia. One day when I was a teenager I went to the movies with my father Eric, and asked him why the lady who showed us the seat were always so friendly to me....he answered she is your grandmother!!!! The shock! If I can be of any help my Mother left a letter in her will to help us with her past.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: anicalouw on Saturday 14 April 18 10:19 BST (UK)
I just saw a comment of Hilda Sauerman who was the daughter of my great grand father Edward George and Elizabeth Cutting, so my great Aunt? I do remember being introduced to my Father Eric Edward Lionel Louw's Uncle Jimmy Louw and Aunty Betty Wannenburg and Aunty Hilda.According to my Mother's letter Edward and Elizabeth had just one son who had one son who had only one daughter , no names I am afraid. If I can be of any help, I will try my best.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: westernwombat on Saturday 14 April 18 11:48 BST (UK)
anicalouw, if I have understood your information then the little that I have might help, put into a partial tree

1-Edward George Landells
  born: 24 Mar 1876, Coburg, Victoria, Australia
  died: Kalk Bay, Western Cape, South Africa

 +Elizabeth Cutting
  born: 1870, Victoria, Australia
  marr: 1900, South Africa
  died: South Africa

  2-Edward George Douglas Landells
    born: 2 Dec 1900, Wynberg, Cape Colony, South Africa
    died: South Africa

  2-Sylvia Grace Landells
    born: 2 Dec 1902, Wynberg, Cape Colony, South Africa
    died:

  2-Hilda Sauerman Landells
    born: 1903, South Africa
    died: South Africa

  2-Dorothy Adelaide Landells
    born: 19 Dec 1904, Wynberg, Cape Colony, South Africa
    died: South Africa

   +Hermanus Petrus Bosman Louw
    born: 18 Jun 1892, South Africa
    marr: 1920, South Africa
    died: South Africa

    3-Eric Edward Lionel Louw
      born:
      died:

    3-Myra Louw
      born:
      died:

    3-Betsy Louw
      born:

     +Wannenburg
      born:
      died:

    3-Eslin Louw
      born:
      died:

  2-Millicent Gwendoline Landells
    born: 16 Dec 1909, Wynberg, Cape Colony, South Africa
    died: South Africa


Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: anicalouw on Saturday 14 April 18 12:24 BST (UK)
My Dad Eric Edward Lionel Louw born 17/09/1924 died 18/06 2014 married to Catharina Helena Hendrina Carstens have 3 children me: Catharina Carstens Dawson ( married name), Marina Delana Louw and Eric Hermanus Louw. Unfortunately I don't have his siblings birth dates but going to write to Aunty Betsy today......before she dies to ask her. She lives in the Strand, Western Cape where we grew up. I live in Ireland for the last 40 years.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: RDConradie on Tuesday 12 March 19 17:42 GMT (UK)
This is a message to Geordie daughter and anicalouw (and other distant relatives). I am the great granddaughter of Vera Irene Cutting and I have just today discovered her sister Elizabeth! We have always known there was a Landells connection but were not sure how, as my mother cannot remember (she is 81!) or never knew. However I have a birthday book originally owned by Lily (another sister) with Landells' birthdays (Edward, Adelaide, Douglas). We always assumed Vera was the oldest, but it would appear Elizabeth was. I still need to check up on this, but she was apparently 20 in 1900 when she married. My family tree is on MyHeritage(Cutting, Slabber, Martheze), although since I started out as a complete novice with the Cutting tree I cannot guarantee absolute accuracy. I would love to compare notes, though. I do have pretty good info on the Cuttings higher up in the tree. Vera's father was a building contractor and his company built a number of the dressed stone buildings in Muizenberg, which is probably how Edward got to know the family, being a stonemason. But prior to that Thomas and his father operated the omnibus company that travelled from Cape Town to the Southern suburbs before the railways. The original Cutting arrived in CT prior to the 1820 Settlers. Please do let me know where you fit into the tree.
   
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: RDConradie on Monday 18 March 19 15:12 GMT (UK)
Hi Westernwombat
I apparently will need to reply to your message on the public notice board because I am a new member-I actually came upon these posts by chance and I must say it makes interesting reading! I am only related to Edward (as we know him) through his marriage to Elizabeth, but I am therefore related to his 4 children and all of the Cuttings. Elizabeth was my great grandmother Vera's sister, although for some reason I did not have her as a definite sibling until a week ago and some sleuthing. I had to rely on my mother's not-so-good memory (she is 81 and in the beginning stages of dementia), but I do have Edward and his 2 oldest children's birthdays annotated in a birthday book which belonged to another sister, Lily and was passed to my grandmother. And they also appear in my grandmother's birthday book so she must have known them. Elizabeth's parents were Thomas Henry Cutting(b1860) and Elizabeth nee Ingham(b c 1860). Thomas owned a construction company in Muizenberg and built many of the dressed stone buildings thereabout, but prior to that he and his father (William Thomas) owned the omnibus company that ferried people from Cape Town to the Southern Peninsular prior to the railways being established. William Thomas grandfather, William was one of the first British Settlers to the Cape, arriving with the first party in Cape Town, prior to the (famous)1820 Settler parties to the Eastern Cape. William(PROG)'s wife was the daughter of a retired soldier, Robert Cooper. While I am in contact with a couple of Cutting descendants, as yet I have not been able to make contact with any with either the surname Cutting or Landells.   
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: anicalouw on Monday 18 March 19 15:26 GMT (UK)
Hi there, I am the great grand daughter of Edward George Landells and Elizabeth Cutting. Their daughter Adelaide Elizabeth Dorothy Landells was married to my grandfather Hermanus Petrus Bosman Louw, they had 4 children of whom my father was Eric Edward Lionel Louw. My name is Catharina Carstens Dawson ( was Louw)
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: westernwombat on Monday 18 March 19 22:21 GMT (UK)
Hi Westernwombat
I apparently will need to reply to your message on the public notice board because I am a new member-I actually came upon these posts by chance and I must say it makes interesting reading! I am only related to Edward (as we know him) through his marriage to Elizabeth, but I am therefore related to his 4 children and all of the Cuttings. Elizabeth was my great grandmother Vera's sister, although for some reason I did not have her as a definite sibling until a week ago and some sleuthing. I had to rely on my mother's not-so-good memory (she is 81 and in the beginning stages of dementia), but I do have Edward and his 2 oldest children's birthdays annotated in a birthday book which belonged to another sister, Lily and was passed to my grandmother. And they also appear in my grandmother's birthday book so she must have known them. Elizabeth's parents were Thomas Henry Cutting(b1860) and Elizabeth nee Ingham(b c 1860). Thomas owned a construction company in Muizenberg and built many of the dressed stone buildings thereabout, but prior to that he and his father (William Thomas) owned the omnibus company that ferried people from Cape Town to the Southern Peninsular prior to the railways being established. William Thomas grandfather, William was one of the first British Settlers to the Cape, arriving with the first party in Cape Town, prior to the (famous)1820 Settler parties to the Eastern Cape. William(PROG)'s wife was the daughter of a retired soldier, Robert Cooper. While I am in contact with a couple of Cutting descendants, as yet I have not been able to make contact with any with either the surname Cutting or Landells.
Thank you for the reply, RDConradie.
In trying to locate more information related to Edward George Landells, I have been using the Historical Records section of FamilySearch (LDS) to look at South African records - recently, mainly of the Cutting family.
Something that seems quite odd, is that in those records children born to Thomas Henry Cutting and Elizabeth have birth dates with a "gap" between 1883 and 1893. This may suggest 2 persons HR Cutting, with wife Elizabeth (but maiden names indeterminate).
What do you think?
There are precise baptism dates for the children Elizabeth Ann, Amelia, Rachel, and Thomas Henry William CUTTING (1879,1881,1882,1883).
Then, for Vera Irene, Ethel Amelia, Hilda Maud, Gladys Mabel, Lillian Violeen, and Patricia Sylvia (1893,1895,1897,1899, 1901, 1904).
Examining the accompanying images of the original records does give a stated dated of birth in some cases.

From those dates, Elizabeth Ann Cutting and Vera Irene Cutting were born 14 years apart.

What eludes me are the marriage date of Edward George Landells and Elizabeth Cutting, and their dates and places of death. Did they leave South Africa?
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: RDConradie on Tuesday 19 March 19 07:06 GMT (UK)
Hi Westernwombat. There is the discrepancy between the fist listed children and the later ones which I need to research further, but I do know that the Landells are relatives because of the birthday book and Elizabeth's neice (Thomas' daughter, Beth) confirms this. I do have the D/N for Elizabeth's mother-also Elizabeth. She was staying with her daughter Hilda Orchard at the time and it us also on this D/N that Elizabeth Landells is listed as Hilda's sister.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: RDConradie on Tuesday 19 March 19 07:13 GMT (UK)
Westernwombat. Just wanted to add.....there is the perid when Elizabeth's parents went off to the diamond fields of Kimberley( where my gr gran was born) which could have had an effect on her mother's fertility. It was not unusual in those days to have siblings of such differing ages, but yes this needs further research.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: RDConradie on Tuesday 19 March 19 07:21 GMT (UK)
Hi Catharina (anicalouw), or should I say, "my cousin"!. Do you perhaps have any sources corroborating your side of the family's DOB and DOD and/or a family tree? If you have been following the posts we have some discrepancies which we need to figure out... Glad to hear from you!
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: anicalouw on Tuesday 19 March 19 08:27 GMT (UK)
RDConradie, in my small research Edward was born March 24, 1876 from Coburg, Victoria Australia and death in Kalkbaai his grave is in the methodist church. ( parent James Douglas Landells and Sarah Jane Landells ( Singleton). His wife Elizabeth Landells ( Born Cutting) born 1880 from Victoria death "from" 1903 in South Africa. They had 4 children, Douglas , Millicent, Adelaide Dorothy ( my Granny) and Hilda. And there are 11 siblings mentioned in FamilySearch Family Tree.
Adelaide Dorothy Louw ( born Landells) born 1902 married my Grandpa Hermanus Petrus Bosman Louw. They had 4 children my father Eric Edward Lionel Louw born 17/09/1925 died 18/06/2014 in the Strand,Western Cape where I was born and where his parents lived. I have a brother Eric ( Jacobsdal Free State) and sister Marina ( houses all over South Africa)
According to the letter my Mother wrote before she died, my father knew his Australian Grandparents, but not even their names. His Mother Adelaide went back to Australia apparently twice, and the children were fostered in between those times, my grand father could not cope. All ties with her broke, I was never introduced to her. My grandfather Hermanus's tree I do have. Unfortunately my father was very embarrassed by his parents and their poverty that we as grandchildren had nothing to do with them. I knew where my grandfather lived in the Strand because on the very occasional visit I was asked to wait in the car(?), and the best story about my Australian grand mother was on a visit to the cinema with my father ( who had his own seat?!) I asked him why the lady showing us the seats is always so friendly to me, his answer "she is your grand mother!!!"
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: westernwombat on Tuesday 19 March 19 11:56 GMT (UK)
Hi Westernwombat. There is the discrepancy between the fist listed children and the later ones which I need to research further, but I do know that the Landells are relatives because of the birthday book and Elizabeth's neice (Thomas' daughter, Beth) confirms this. I do have the D/N for Elizabeth's mother-also Elizabeth. She was staying with her daughter Hilda Orchard at the time and it us also on this D/N that Elizabeth Landells is listed as Hilda's sister.

I have searched the Cape records for birth/death of Thomas Henry Cutting and have so far found only the one death with that name, between 1920 and 1945: on 18 June 1931. And the death notice of his wife Eiizabeth (she died 23 Aug 1939) confirms that, and gives the married names of all children -
Elizabeth Landells
Thomas Cutting
Vera Martheze
Ethel Flanigan
Hilda Orchard
Lily Steyn
- you would have seen this, and noted that it was signed by daughter Hilda Orchard.
And the baptism records of those are in both groups (1879 to 1883, 1893 to 1904) - though some children I previously listed with baptism years, are missing from the 6 listed here. I haven't checked if they had married and had died before the date of their mother Elizabeth (nee Ingham).
You know much more than I do, and the family records are evidence.
I'm unsure of Thomas Henry Cutting's birth year - 1860,or 1856 ?

This transcribed record gives his age at death as 75, calculated birth year 1856 -
"South Africa, Cape Province, Civil Deaths, 1895-1972," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPCZ-H5XV : 28 December 2018), Thomas Henry Cutting, 18 Jun 1931, Wynberg, Randburg, Transvaal, South Africa; citing National Archives, Pretoria; FHL microfilm .

The image is quite readable (despite the tag saying that some pages have problems (9 problems listed!) and gives his age as "Seventysix Years".

Have you found an actual record of birth for either Thomas Henry Cutting or Elizabeth Ingham?
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: RDConradie on Tuesday 19 March 19 12:02 GMT (UK)
Hi Catharina!
Edward Landells DOB is definitely 24 March 1876. This is confirmed as his birthday is noted as March 24 in our birthday book and his age as 24 on the marriage register(Kalk Bay 20 March 1990) . Edward probably came from Australia...not something we knew until last week! But Elizabeth was definitely born in South Africa, as her parents and siblings are all born here. She is named on her mother's D/N by her sister who completed it. I do need to do some more research on her. She is not in my direct line and I wasn't really sure of her existence until last week. My mother's memory is a bit hazy but she does remember Landells in the family as well as Vera having a sister whom they called Lizzie, but she does seem to be a bit of a mystery. Despite Edward and Douglas and Adelaide appearing in our birthday book, SHE doesn't! (?)She is noted as being 20 at her wedding in 1900. Could she actually have been 22 and be the Elizabeth I found being baptised in Wynberg in 1878? Or did that one pass away and when she was born (maybe on the way to the diamond fields) she was given the name(again)? I am not sure, but she is definitely part of our family, whatever. Our birthday book has Douglas' birthday as 2 December (as indicated at his baptism) and Adelaide as 19 December (I believe that is correct per the baptism, I just haven't recorded it yet). Anyway, great to hear from you! Let me know if you would like to hear more or you think of anything else. As I said before you can check out my tree on Myheritage and there is also a lot of Cutting info on family search. I am also on facebook. I tell you we all have stories to tell! I never met my father's father, although he was around. He was a piece of work, which makes doing THAT side of my tree a mission! Cheers!       
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: westernwombat on Tuesday 19 March 19 12:16 GMT (UK)
RDConradie - a question: I haven't been able to locate the marriage of Elizabeth Cutting and Edward George Landells, and just guess it might be around 1900. You have seen it, as 1890?
Also, I can't locate the death date and place of EG Landells. Perhaps it is due to the slowness of searches on FamilySearch.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: RDConradie on Tuesday 19 March 19 12:23 GMT (UK)
Hi Westernwombat!
Thanks so much for your efforts! As I may have stated when I first started my tree (with the Cuttings) I was very clueless and although I found records I didn't record them (although I have reams of printouts of records!) and then I only found Elizabeth, her mother and grandmother in this last week, so I haven't been able to check through everything yet. It appears her grandmother was born in St Helena which is another mission! Vera is my great grandmother, so naturally her direct line is of most importance to me.You bring up 2 important and interesting questions which need further investigation. I have Thomas' DOB as an estimate so likely I had not found any records besides his birthday (per our birthday book). I did find Elizabeth born Ingham)'s baptism which states her DOB as 14 August 1860. I have some work ahead of me! Once again, thanks! I don't know if any of this has helped you in your search, unfortunately. But it has helped me! :) 
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: RDConradie on Tuesday 19 March 19 12:31 GMT (UK)
Hi! Westerwombat. yr post #94-I have seen the marriage of Elizabeth and Edward. It was in 1900. He was noted as 24 and she as 20, and her parents gave permission for her marriage. I think a James Landell was a witness and also a Cutting lady. Apparently Catharina (anicalouw) has noted a death (D/N?) for Edward-she states he died in Kalk Bay and is buried at the Methodist Church. I haven't looked for it yet.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: westernwombat on Tuesday 19 March 19 13:11 GMT (UK)
Hi! Westerwombat. yr post #94-I have seen the marriage of Elizabeth and Edward. It was in 1900. He was noted as 24 and she as 20, and her parents gave permission for her marriage. I think a James Landell was a witness and also a Cutting lady. Apparently Catharina (anicalouw) has noted a death (D/N?) for Edward-she states he died in Kalk Bay and is buried at the Methodist Church. I haven't looked for it yet.

Thanks - I think I am getting it reasonably clear now.
Have you noted the earlier investigations (pages 5 through 8, I think) particularly posts by Cando and Majm, which have convinced me that Edward George LANDELLS was born on the date you have recorded in the birthday book, but was born / named Adam James Douglass LANDELLS.

There is only one 1876 Landells Victoria (Australia) Birth registration:
Adam James Douglass 1876 Coburg Reg# 8239

However, he was known to his family (on at least a couple of documented places) as "Eddie" - eg, in 1882, birth cert of his brother Henry Hunter LANDELLS in Victoria.

Also, in prior posts in this thread, the suggestion that he got into some trouble and may have left Australia for that reason.
I am repeating it here -

Victorian Police Gazette 17 Jun 1896  Page#179
DESERTERS OF WIVES AND CHILDREN

Edward LANDELLS is charged on warrant for deserting his illegitimate child by Elizabeth Harris, 350 Weston Street, Brunswick, at Brunswick on 11th inst.  Description - 20 or 21 years of age, 5 feet 10 inches high, medium build, fair complexion, fair hair and small light brown moustache only, large blue eyes; generally wears a brown suit, sometimes a boxer hat and other times a brown felt hat.  12 Jun 1896.


 
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: anicalouw on Tuesday 19 March 19 13:44 GMT (UK)
RDConradie, That is so interesting, we had no idea that she was from South Africa! So according to my Mother's letter Edward Landells and Elizabeth Cutting had only one son Douglas Landells, and three daughters, Millicent, Hilda and Adelaide, Douglas according to my Mother had only one daughter, and therefor no more Landells in South Africa.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: westernwombat on Tuesday 19 March 19 14:22 GMT (UK)
A FamilySearch tree for Edward George LANDELLS -
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/L1J9-H5G
collates some of the information of his occupation and residences over time, obtained from the images of birth records of his children.
Also recorded there is his marriage on 22 March 1900 at Holy Trinity Church, Kalk Bay, Cape Town to Elizabeth Cutting.
Occupation: 1901 - stone mason; 1905 - stone cutter; 1909 - Police constable
Residences: 22 Mar 1900 - Kalk Bay, Cape Town; 1909 - Diep River, Cape Town

Not on that tree, but available on the images of the birth register for the children (at FamilySearch), are witness names that include Landells and Cutting.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: RDConradie on Tuesday 19 March 19 15:31 GMT (UK)
Hi ladies!(Westernwombat and anicalouw). I have been following all of the posts on this thread with great interest. My opinion is that Edward is the Eddie noted by his mother on his sibling's birth registration AND the absconder who left his illegitimate child and his mother in the lurch. This is not unusual and he was young! The irony is that he later became a policeman! 😊 Although his brother-in-law (Vera's husband Martheze) was also a policeman. His son and 2 son-in-laws also became policemen.
Title: Re: Edward George LANDELLS - whose son is he?
Post by: RDConradie on Tuesday 19 March 19 15:35 GMT (UK)
The occupation:stone mason is probably how he met up with the Cuttings as his father-in-law owned s construction company(dressed stone buildings)