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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Prouty99 on Tuesday 12 February 13 22:07 GMT (UK)
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Hi folks, apologies as i am a new user, but this is driving me nuts....
I have been researching the Walls family in the Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan area, and have hit a major brick wall with Valentine Whall (walls) b abt 1700, d 1774 and his brother Robert Whall (Walls) b abt 1710 d 1774.
I have traced 90% of the family from 1700 to the present day, as well as others in Australia (NSW), and Durham (UK) (so if anyone needs some assistance with their own research then i am only too glad to help.
Valentine and Robert are the earliest members found, but there the trail grows cold. I have no birth records (even though both are mentioned in the Blackrod St.Katherines register, one of the oldest registers in the region)
But no christening/baptism record for either brother....So as far as i can tell they weren't from Wigan/Aspull/Blackrod originally.
Has anyone else on roots chat been researching a Whall/Walls/Wolles/ line somewhere else in the region that may help with this, as i have spent the last 3 years just on this one question
If i have to go through DNA testing comparison to other Walls lines, then so be it
Hope someone can help, or point me in the right direction
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Have you seen a possible marriage at St Peter Bolton le Moors to Alice Orrell 6.4.1724?
Ciderdrinker
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Hi Prouty & welcome to Rootschat,
Have you come across the following website: -
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/l/a/Carole-A-Slattery/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-Index.html
There's a Valentine but born 1728 but no sign of Robert.
Best wishes
Maria :)
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Hi
Is this the death record that you have?
Burial: 13 Apr 1774 St Katharine, Blackrod, Lancashire, England
Valentine Whalls -
Abode: Blackrod
Heather
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Is this another family member?
Burial: 29 Jan 1780 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancashire, England
Valentine Walls -
Abode: Blackrod
Buried by: Richard Perryn, Rector
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Have you ruled this one out?
Valenidinus Waltz christened 5th february 1695 KATHOLISCH,HOCHMOSSINGEN,SCHWARZWALDKREIS,WUERTTEMBERG
Parents Ignatius Waltz, Adelhaid Holtzer
Heather
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Blackrod,St Katherine
5th March 1655
William son of William Whalel
buried
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11th November 1667
Henrie son of William Whale
St Katherine,
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The Alles Walles that is buried wife of Valentine
13th May 1749 ,Blackrod
is she the wife of the Valentine you are ,looking for a baptism,?
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Who is Dolly Walls
burial 1823 aged 79 years
8th May 1778
Order of filiation and maintance of William,
bastard child of John Kershaw the younger ,weaver and Dolly Whalls,single woman
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I know you have researched long and hard so please forgive me if I go over old ground with you,
You seem quite sure Valentine and Robert are Blackrod born and bred,and just need something to lead you back to their parentage,
The name Walles often mistranscribed very easily by church officials,so you are not 100% sure od what spelling to use,
The W family do seem to have been around in Blackrod for quite a long time as in
1662.16th May
Abigail Wallis alias Bannister
is baptised
child of Christophe Banister and Jane Walles,
where did these three go,did Jane and Christoph marry,or did Abigail go on to have her own children unmarried hence they take the name Wallis or Walles
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I'm afraid that I'm stuck at my gggggg gf Valentine too. I know he married Alles Orret at Bolton in 1753, and Catherine Green in Wigan in 1753. St. Katherine's at Blackrod was a chapel-of-ease to St. Peter's at Bolton, but because of the distances involved, many Blackrod people used Standish or Wigan parish churches.
Valentine is a "favourite" name in the Walls family. One branch in Co. Durham was spotted as related because of the presence of one.
There are quite a few Walls in the wider area, but few records anywhere near as old as the Blackrod ones are evident. A family in Wigan with the surname "Wall" appears not to be related, so I've no claim to the ice cream and sausage empire. :( The surname we seek may have variable spelling, but always seems to have the trailing "s".
Familysearch comes up with an interesting suggestion - a "Valenidinus Waltz" was baptised in the Black Forest in 1695. However I can't for the life of me come up with a reason for this chap to move to Lancashire, and his father's name (Ignatius) doesn't reappear.
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Have you both discounted an Irish connection,
Valentine Wall
son of Robert Wall cant read the actual date,
year 1707
Tullow parish church Carlow
Church of Ireland,
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Good grief, that was quick !
Thanks all for the input folks
Just to answer a few questions in order that the replies came...
'Ciderdrinker': Yes i have seen the Alles Orrit connection, i established a while ago that Valentine was married first to Alles, then Catherine Green later on. All in all Valentine had 14 kids between the two marriages, and i have detailed research on all of them and their descendents
miriamkinga : The Valentine Walls you mention b 1728 was the son of the Valentine Walls i am looking at...All in all there are at least 7 Valentine Walls in the tree that i know of, and around 3 in Robert's line. In fact there three Valentine Walls males lived at the same time in the same small street in Leigh near Wigan at one time, and the street came to be known as Valentine Walls houses !
heatherjulie : Well pointed out, yes this is the Valentine Walls 1700-1774 and he was indeed buried at St.Katherines in Blackrod, although i still have no idea where he was born
heatherjulie : Valenidinus Waltz is a name i am looking at currently, as i am investigating the possibility that Valentine Walls immigrated into England as one of the 'poor palatines' in 1709 to escape the strife going on due to war of succession, etc, although the list of palatine immigrants (refugees) doesn't contain his name, or any combination of Walls/Whalls/Waltz, but research is ongoing as there were other influxes prior to the main one in 1709
Radcliff : I would love William s of William Walls of Bolton to be a part of this, as this would extend my research, but i just can't prove it, and have looked at this name many times on LAN OPC
Radcliff :Henrie i have also looked at, and his name proves that the Walls clan was in Blackrod way before 1700, but again i cannot prove that Henrie or William his father are part of the line, although it is highly likely they both are with the Blackrod/St.Katherine connection
The Alles Walls is proven to be Valentines Wife's burial in 1749, and yes she is the first wife of Valentine. As for your next point about Dolley, she was a character, and had 3 or 4 kids out of wedlock, she is in the tree already and is part of the descendant line.
Your point about being sure that Valentine and Robert being Blackrod born and bred is the big question, i have no proof that either brother was born in Blackrod, the first time they appear on the record is Robert's first childs baptism Agnis Walls 1727-1754, and they lived in Millgate, with Roberts wife Elizabeth (surname unknown, marriage date unknown). Valentine appears on his marriage day to Alles Orritt married in Bolton-Le-Moors, so Robert appears in 1727, and Valentine in 1724, no baptism for either in the entire country prior to these dates, we just have estimates
In Blackrod there were other Walls such as Abigail, and Jane, but again no proven connection to either line.
andrewalston : You are my hero, We have spoken many times via email, and your gedcom file on roots web has been of massive help, although the team have been quietly digging since last we spoke, and we have uncovered another line of Walls in Blackrod at the same time, the earliest member was John Walls born in 1755, who's descendants formed the Walls in the Hindley,Ince, and Weshoughton strands including Parnell Walls (Nee Isherwood). I think Valentine, Robert, and John have a common ancestor. On a different note, Robert lived in Wigan (Millgate, and his occupation was 'taylor), so maybe i'll join you for a sausage and ice cream lunch quite soon !
The reason i know that they were brothers is because they appeared as witnesses at each others kids baptisms and marriages, and Robert lived in Blackrod for a brief time. In fact the Walls clan were professional witnesses, and appeared at multiple unrelated marriages, baptisms and the like.
Radcliff : I spotted the Irish connection very recently, and have the baptism record. This is my current line of research, as the poor palatines entered the UK into Chester the main port at that time, then were transferred into Chester by wagons. Some stayed, most went on to Ireland, where some disembarked, and the majority went to America....
I am currently in contact with the Walls DNA project, who have proven a DNA link match between Ireland Walls,:
Subgroup: Group VII
Name: Not Disclosed
Most Distant Ancestor: Walter DeVal Wall, b1505 d1570
Marker Location: Eyrecourt county, Galway, Ireland
Lat, Lng: (52.3988953, -8.573311)
And English Walls:
Subgroup: Group VII
Name: Not Disclosed
Most Distant Ancestor: Mark Wall, 1690, 1740.
Marker Location: Stanhope, Bishop Auckland, County Durham, UK
Lat, Lng: (54.7473831, -2.0067153)
The De Vall name also seems like a connection with Wall.
So loads of possible angles, and speculation, but the question remains, where did Valentine Walls and his brother Robert come from ?
Thanks for all the input folks, its greatly appreciated
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Hi Prouty & welcome to Rootschat,
Have you come across the following website: -
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/s/l/a/Carole-A-Slattery/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-Index.html
There's a Valentine but born 1728 but no sign of Robert.
Maria :)
Hi Miriamkinga
I have looked at Carole's site, and i think that Carole just made a mistake with Valentine Walls at the start of her Walls lineage, as she has only put Catherine Green as Valentine's wife, whereas Catherine is really Valentine's second wife.
Valentine's first wife was Alles Orritt, and he married her in about 1724, and their first child was Robert Walls in 1726
Carole has Valentine as estimated to be born in 1728, which wouldn't be possible if his first son was born in 1726.
We know that the marriage between Valentine and Alles took place on 6th April 1724 at Bolton-Le-Moors, but no records before this, but we can safely assume he was 16 to 18 on his marriage date, (but that's only a rough guess)
If he was 18, that makes his birth year 1706, or 1708 if he married at 16.
That's our dead end :)
Best wishes
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Hi all,
Ok, so this is outside the box, but bear with me.
As we know, parish register keepers were not great at spelling, and the further you go back, the worse they were.
Having that in mind, we also know that the Walls family parish records in Lancashire had different spellings...
Firstly in the early 1700's records when it mentioned Robert and Valentines children, it was Whall, Whalle, and Whale
Then later on in the late 1700's it became Walls, Whalles, and even Walles
It only became 'Walls' consistently in the early 1800's
But what about in the 1600's where the spelling would be more phonetically how it sounds ? I went through every combination of spelling the word 'Walls', but no luck, and this took months, but then today i thought really outside of the box....,
How do you spell 'Wall(s)' without using a 'W'
Hualgh maybe ? The spelling sounds like Whall without a W...,
Baptism: 4 Sep 1607 St Peter, Bolton le Moors, Lancashire, England
Valentine Halgh of Boulton
b. of Robert Halgh and Margerett Sharples
both of Boulton
Baptism: 17 Jun 1611 St Peter, Bolton le Moors, Lancashire, England
Robert Halgh of Boulton s. of Robert
Baptism: 13 Feb 1639 St Peter, Bolton le Moors, Lancashire, England
Margrett Halgh b: d. of Vallentyne
et Sarah Smetherst de Farnworth
Burial: 16 Nov 1646 St Mary the Virgin, Deane, Lancashire, England
Infans Vallentynes Haulgh of Middle Hulton
Baptism: 17 Nov 1650 St Mary, Deane, Lancashire, England
Georgius f. Valentinij Halughe de Middle Hulton
Baptism: 20 Mar 1652 St Mary, Deane, Lancashire, England
Johanes f. Valentinij Haulgh de Middle Hulton
I travel past middle Hulton every day, as its the only way from where i live to Bolton..., these days it is called little Hulton, and little Hulton back then im sure it would have been split into lower Hulton, middle Hulton, and what is even now 'Over Hulton'
OUR Valentine was also married at Bolton-Le-Moors, and we already know that some Walls baptisms, marriages, and deaths took place in Deane, which is also a village past Little Hulton into Bolton...,I also drive through Deane every day.
Let me know your thoughts on this theory
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I looked at that baptism myself,
but thought you wouldnt be interested,
myself I do believe strongly in phonetics,just like Chinese whispers ,
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Thanks for the reply
The phonetics thing is an interesting area of research, although its a bit hit and miss really
Do you think that he just wasn't baptised at all ? Would that be common back then ?
I was also looking at the Preston/Chingle Hall 'Wall' family as a link between the two lines, as the plague hit Preston around the mid to late 1600's, so if someone was born mid journey then the baptism just wouldn't be registered
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Interesting!
Haulgh is a name with wide-ranging pronunciations.
The place on the east of Bolton is currently pronounced something like "Hoff". When you compare that with "haltch" for the almost identical end of "Greenhalgh", imagining a variation of "Walls" seems quite possible. The presence of more than one Valentine in this family is a good sign. Time to look for corroborating evidence!
The Hultons, by the way are all still extant - Over, Middle and Little all used to be part of Deane parish, though Little Hulton became part of Salford relatively recently. Deane parish formed a barrier between Blackrod and Bolton, running from Rivington in the north west to Westhoughton in the south and Little Hulton in the east. It must have rankled Blackrod residents that they were supposed to travel all the way to Bolton to get married, especially as the obvious route took them past Deane Church.
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Hi Andrew,
The Halgh/Haulgh family seemed to die out prior to 1700, the surname just disappeared for what could be a number of reasons...
I have a more promising lead though which has become apparent over the last 24 hours
There was a 'John Walles' fathering children who were baptised at St.Katherines as well, and John's first child was in 1731, (Robert Walles) which would make Johns possible birthdate around the same time as Valentine Walls, and his Brother Robert Walls.
John Walles appears nowhere in Valentine, or Robert's tree
I can only deduce that John Walles is Valentine and Robert's brother !
Let's say that the age at marriage was 18 (for arguments sake), and the first child after marriage was the year after the wedding (again, for arguments sake)
This would make Valentine Walls birth year of 1708.
Robert Walls birth year would be 1709
John 'Walles' birth year would be 1713
All 3 lived in Blackrod, fathering children at the same time, which were all baptised at St.Katherines, in the same period.
The problem is that John 'Walles' fathered 8 children, 7 boys, 1 girl, and in all those parish entries there is no mention of John 'Walles' wife, mother, or father....,the mystery deepens, and if John is Valentine and Robert's brother, we still do not have an origin for any of them !
Here are the children;
Baptism: 25 Dec 1731 St Katharine, Blackrod, Lancashire, England
Robert Walles - Son of John Walles
Register: Baptisms 1727 - 1782, Page 3, Entry 25
Source: LDS Film 2148001
Baptism: 15 Aug 1736 St Katharine, Blackrod, Lancashire, England
James Walles - Son of John Walles
Register: Baptisms 1727 - 1782, Page 7, Entry 21
Source: LDS Film 2148001
Baptism: 16 Jul 1738 St Katharine, Blackrod, Lancashire, England
Thomas Walles - Son of John Walles
Register: Baptisms 1727 - 1782, Page 9, Entry 16
Source: LDS Film 2148001
Baptism: 19 Aug 1739 St Katharine, Blackrod, Lancashire, England
James Walles - Son of John Walles
Register: Baptisms 1727 - 1782, Page 10, Entry 16
Source: LDS Film 2148001
Baptism: 26 Sep 1742 St Katharine, Blackrod, Lancashire, England
Danell Walles - Son of John Walles
Register: Baptisms 1727 - 1782, Page 12, Entry 17
Source: LDS Film 2148001
Baptism: 1 Apr 1744 St Katharine, Blackrod, Lancashire, England
George Walles - Son of John Walles
Register: Baptisms 1727 - 1782, Page 13, Entry 21
Source: LDS Film 2148001
Baptism: 23 Mar 1745/6 St Katharine, Blackrod, Lancashire, England
Jane Walles - Daughter of John Walles
Register: Baptisms 1727 - 1782, Page 15, Entry 11
Source: LDS Film 2148001
Baptism: 10 Jan 1747/8 St Katharine, Blackrod, Lancashire, England
Peter Waeles - Son of John Waeles
Register: Baptisms 1727 - 1782, Page 17, Entry 3
Source: LDS Film 2148001
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Valentine and John both appear to have named their first son Robert. Unfortunately Robert's first apparent son was a John. Not knowing when he arrived in Blackrod, it's possible a Robert was baptised elsewhere, then died in infancy, being "replaced" in 1734.
I think we need to look for a father named Robert.
In the meantime, I think I ought to review my Walls family groups. I definitely have some wrong. Arrabella's parents Robert and Elizabeth in 1757 are not going to be the same as Agnis' 30 years earlier.
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This is the problem i've been poring over for the last couple of years Andrew, and i know that you have dedicated considerably longer in the search for Walls folk...
There are so many Robert's, Valentines, and the like, its been a task to separate them at times. Sometimes you get two people with the same name who are born in the same year, only a couple of months apart both baptised in the same church, with Walls people as witnesses !
As for Robert, Valentine, and John, the fact that there is no baptisms for any of them suggests that they all came from out of the area. It does seem strange though that there is absolutely no mention of John's wife, as you know the Katherines registers usually give you lots of info, such as;
25 Sep 1625 Roger s. of Henery Hodgkenson & Elizabeth
borne 22 Sep 1625 being Thorsday about
fore of the clocke in the afternone
Or
10 Sep 1639 Edward s. of Allexander Vause had his
Nativitie 10 Sep 1639 : aboute an hower
after sonneryse 10 Oct 1639
You can usually set your watch by the St.Katherines registers, they are stunningly informative, although where John Walles is concerned there's nothing but basic info.
To not find one baptism is everyday stuff, but to not find 3, who may be brothers, is rare. I'm leaning toward an out of England origin, and i haven't explored Scotland yet. (1700 to 1800, the highest concentration of Walls surnames was a.Wigan, and b. Kirkwall in Scotland)
Maybe it is derived from 'Wallace'....
Maybe you can drop the ice cream empire, and opt for a blue face and a claymore instead :)
By the way, i've been meaning to ask you for a while, what lead you to believe that Robert and Valentine were brothers when you originally made the Gedcom file on Rootsweb ?
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"I have been researching the Walls family in the Blackrod/Aspull/Wigan area, and have hit a major brick wall with Valentine Whall (walls) b abt 1700, d 1774 and his brother Robert Whall (Walls) b abt 1710 d 1774. "
Like everyone on this forum I'm stuck with my Walls line at Valentine (my 5g-grandfather) who was buried at Blackrod in 1774. My great grandfather, William Walls, always maintained that the family had Scottish roots. The name Walls does indeed occur commonly in Scotland (see, for example, http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Map.aspx?name=WALLS&year=1881&altyear=1998&country=GB&type=name)
Has anyone explored this possibility?
I have found Y-chromosome DNA testing for my son and brother to be very helpful and found it interesting also to find out about our shared mt-DNA even though the latter doesn't help directly with genealogy. I intend to have autosomal testing as soon as I can arrange this, so I am hoping that this might shed light on my Walls links and others.
If anyone would like further information on testing or on my Walls links, please get in touch.
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Hi Marymar
You say your great grandfather was William Walls ? Do you know his birth and death year ?
It would be interesting to look at the charts i have to see where your William fits into the picture
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Thanks for your reply. This is my g-grandfather:
Walls, William
b. 04 Mar 1846, Guide, Lower Darwen, Lancs
m. Livesey, Mary, 25 Apr 1873, St John`s CofE, Abram
d. 13 May 1900,Warrington Road, Abram, Lancashire
He was son of:
Walls, Robert, b 1814, Blackrod
m1 Margaret Dickinson, 20 Dec 1835,St Wilfrid`s, Standish; m2 Maria Hatton SepQ 1865, Wigan
d Platt Bridge, SepQ 1879
who was son of:
Walls, Thomas
b. ABT 1777, Blackrod
m. Walker, Sarah (Sally), 28 Oct 1802, Billinge
d c 25 Oct 1834, Blackrod
who was eldest son of:
Walls, Thomas
b. 1755, Blackrod
m. Doughty, Betty
d Blackrod?
son of:
Whalls, Valentine
b ?
m. Green, Katharine, 24 Sep 1753,Wigan
d BEF 13 Mar 1774
If you'd like to see my Tribal Pages tree, which has more information, feel free to contact me via mary[dot]sayers[at]virgin[dot]net.
Best wishes, Mary
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Hello, I am a very newcomer to this. Started a few years ago, stopped and lost everything, and now back again to try and work it out.
I was a Walls originally from Wavertree in Liverpool. I've worked back to find the family came from Aspull/Blackrod/Westhoughton but there seem so many branches it's getting confusing.
The one who moved to Wavertree as Robert Walls b. 1823 in Westhoughton. He had moved to Liverpool by the 1861 census and worked as engine driver on railways.
As far as I can work out (in a very amateur way...) his father was John Walls b. 1781 in Blackrod.
His father was Thomas Walls (Whalls) b. 1761 in Blackrod. It seems Thomas's mother was Alice Whalls who was a prolific babymaker with various fathers! Have found 2 records in National Archives where she is claiming filiation and maintenance of her 'bastard children', including Thomas Whalls.
Apart from her many children (Richard 1750, Sally 1854, Hannah 1858, Thomas 1761 and Isabell 1778) I cant find anything else about her, like birth or death.
Hope I haven't gone too far wrong or gone off the thread too much, but any help would be appreciated.
Maybe I'm related to some of you!
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For more information please contact me at . The address below is now defunct.
If you'd like to see my Tribal Pages tree, which has more information, feel free to contact me via
Best wishes, Mary
[/quote]
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I am still seeking evidence that Alles Orret and Katharine Green were the first and second wives of Valentine Walls. Is there a joint gravestone? Is there any source that says that Valentine was a widower when he married Katherine? Are there wills? Are there family bibles? The only records of Valentine's marriage(s) I have seen quoted in trees are the (notoriously unreliable) IGI records. Has anyone seen the original parish registers and/or bishop's transcripts? Is there DNA evidence from known descendants of Alles and Katharine?
I'd love to be convinced that Alles and Katharine were married to the same man. Evidence, please?
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Hi there,
We may be able to shed some light on that soon, as Manchester central library re-opens on 22nd March 2014. It's been a long wait for the place to get rebuilt, but i know that Valentine/ Alles Orritt marriage record is in there.
Not too sure if this will be proof enough, but at least we will have the parish record.
I think we may have to look elsewhere for the proof that the Katherine Green Valentine, and the Alles Orritt Valentine are one and the same. Remember that we are dealing with a timeframe 100 years before the first census record, or certificate of any kind, so maybe other records are the way, such as window tax, rent records, wills, or suchlike.
It seems that Alles died in 1745, yet Valentine went on to have more children in 1747, 1749,1755, and 1760.
I guess that if Alles died in 1745, and Valentine got married, and had his next child in 1747, there is a chance that he and Katherine lived at the same address. If he did, then there's your proof, although how we find a record to show his address from 1745 to 1747 i don't know.
Have you any ideas how we can find this ?
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Burial of Alles (nee Orret) 13 May 1749 at Blackrod (from the LPRS):
Alles w Vallintin Walles
Valentine was left with a large family - the couple had 11 children baptised, including twins in April 1749. Acquiring a stepmother for the children would have been very important, even if there was help from relatives.
The marriage to Catherine Green was at Wigan 24 September 1753.
My transcript from the film:
Valentine Whalls & Catherine Green both of Blackrod married by Mr. Edge Curate the 24th day. Bans.
The only other Valentine would have been the son of Valentine and Alice, and be only 17 years old. He went on to marry Betty Anderton in 1759. Both couples had children after this date, so Betty's husband was not the same person as Catherine's.
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I agree that a stepmother would have been useful if Valentine didn't have a paid housekeeper, sisters, aunts or mother/mother-in-law around to help, but I haven't seen any reliable evidence to point conclusively to Valentine having married Catharine Green after the death of Alles.
The lack of baptisms for two Valentines is not, for me at any rate, evidence that only one man was involved. I have several ancestors on my tree for whom I haven't been able to find baptisms despite much investigation by me and by others. Some of these missing records can be accounted for by damage/destruction, which I know to have taken place in the disruptive times in the 17th and 18th centuries (as for example occurred at Rivington Unitarian Chapel).
Do you know conclusively which of the following two Valentines here is which?
Burial: 13 Apr 1774 St Katharine, Blackrod, Lancashire, England
Valentine Whalls -
Abode: Blackrod
Register: Burials 1727 - 1782, Page 97, Entry 25
Source: LDS Film 2148001
Burial: 29 Jan 1780 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancashire, England
Valentine Walls -
Abode: Blackrod
Buried by: Richard Perryn, Rector
Register: Burials 1772 - 1812, Page 26, Entry 12
Source: LDS Film 1526140
Burial of Alles (nee Orret) 13 May 1749 at Blackrod (from the LPRS):
Alles w Vallintin Walles
Valentine was left with a large family - the couple had 11 children baptised, including twins in April 1749. Acquiring a stepmother for the children would have been very important, even if there was help from relatives.
On an unrelated topic: I know you are interested in the name Donbavand. Are you aware of this record? I realise it may not be of consequence but thought I'd mention it after I found it when investigating Simm ancestors.
Marriage: 2 Aug 1759 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
James Simm - this Parish
Jane Key - (X), this Parish
Witness: James Bankes; William Donbavand
Banns Read: 15 Jul 1758, 2nd: 22 Jul 1759, 3rd: 29 Jul 1759
Married by Banns by: John Lowe Curate
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We have no documentary evidence as to which of the Valentine Walls died when, but on the balance of probabilities, the father died first. Betty (nee Anderton) did not seem to remarry, but if her husband had died in 1774, not only would she be short of an income (eldest son John) would have been only 10) but the baptism of Betty on 15 May 1774 surely would have mentioned that she was a widow. There are so few Valentine Wallses around at any one time that we are justified in allocating an identity to the references in the records. We are very lucky not to be dealing with John Smith! Incidentally I have a John Smith who was a shoemaker in Croston; another Johns Smith was a shoemaker in Bretherton at the same time, and a third one in the parish was an Ag Lab.
Yes, I'm running a one-name study into Donbavands/Dunbabins etc, so I have trawled most of the sources now. William Donbavand was Parish Clerk for 50 years until his death in 1764, when his son, also William, took over.
Parish Clerks were regular marriage witnesses, because they would have to be present in order for the register by be extracted from the parish chest, and of course they could usually write!
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Has any progress been made towards resolving the many puzzles surrounding the Walls families of Blackrod, Lancashire? Family Tree DNA autosomal testing is providing some very useful insights for my own line, but as I have no known Walls first cousins in the direct male line, and my only male Walls second cousins are not interested in family history, I am unable to investigate Y-DNA to enable me to trace back the origins of my great-grandfather beyond my 5g-grandfather, Valentine Walls of Blackrod. There is a Family Tree DNA Wall/Walls Y-DNA project that is producing interesting results for its members. Are there any male Walls direct descendants out there who are interesting in DNA testing?
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I keep having another look, but without success so far.
I believe that I am too distantly related to make DNA testing meaningful. My closest Walls link is my ggg grandmother (female line all the way) Arabella Walls, born 1811. She in turn is a great granddaughter of the problematic Valentine.
The best I can come up with at present is that Valentine's father was likely to be called Robert. Both he and Robert Walls, who I believe to be his brother, have their first son in the parish named Robert.
I have no documentary evidence for them being siblings, but the unusual name Arabella appears in both their families, so I think there must be some link between them.
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Hi there. There is actually a Bill Walls who lives in Hindley who is the grandson of Valentine Walls (a later Valentine), and as I recall he is a direct all male descendant of the Valentine walls you have done so much work to uncover Andrew.
I spoke to him via email a couple of years ago and he gave me a copy of the only photo I have ever seen of any Valentine Walls, which I am sure you have already seen on the ancestry website Andrew
I'll see if I can dig out the communications I had with him at the time
Aside from this I still think about Valentine as I drive past the 'Valentine Walls houses' quite a lot in Hindley where as I recall multiple Valentine Walls' from different generations all lived in the same terrace at the same time and were all from the same line
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Has any progress been made towards resolving the many puzzles surrounding the Walls families of Blackrod, Lancashire? Family Tree DNA autosomal testing is providing some very useful insights for my own line, but as I have no known Walls first cousins in the direct male line, and my only male Walls second cousins are not interested in family history, I am unable to investigate Y-DNA to enable me to trace back the origins of my great-grandfather beyond my 5g-grandfather, Valentine Walls of Blackrod. There is a Family Tree DNA Wall/Walls Y-DNA project that is producing interesting results for its members. Are there any male Walls direct descendants out there who are interesting in DNA testing?
Do you have a link for the DNA Walls project Mary? Like I already told Andrew I exchanged emails with Bill Walls in Hindley who's grandad is Valentine Walls 1883 - 1958 and Bill as far as I can make out is an all male descendant of the original Valentine who died in 1774
I did discuss the DNA stuff with him briefly but then lost touch , but I may be able to dig out his email address if you need it
Below is a photo of Valentine although not sure of where this was taken but as far as I know it's the only photo of any of the Valentine's I have ever seen
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I agree that a stepmother would have been useful if Valentine didn't have a paid housekeeper, sisters, aunts or mother/mother-in-law around to help, but I haven't seen any reliable evidence to point conclusively to Valentine having married Catharine Green after the death of Alles.
The lack of baptisms for two Valentines is not, for me at any rate, evidence that only one man was involved. I have several ancestors on my tree for whom I haven't been able to find baptisms despite much investigation by me and by others. Some of these missing records can be accounted for by damage/destruction, which I know to have taken place in the disruptive times in the 17th and 18th centuries (as for example occurred at Rivington Unitarian Chapel).
Do you know conclusively which of the following two Valentines here is which?
Burial: 13 Apr 1774 St Katharine, Blackrod, Lancashire, England
Valentine Whalls -
Abode: Blackrod
Register: Burials 1727 - 1782, Page 97, Entry 25
Source: LDS Film 2148001
Burial: 29 Jan 1780 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancashire, England
Valentine Walls -
Abode: Blackrod
Buried by: Richard Perryn, Rector
Register: Burials 1772 - 1812, Page 26, Entry 12
Source: LDS Film 1526140
Burial of Alles (nee Orret) 13 May 1749 at Blackrod (from the LPRS):
Alles w Vallintin Walles
Valentine was left with a large family - the couple had 11 children baptised, including twins in April 1749. Acquiring a stepmother for the children would have been very important, even if there was help from relatives.
On an unrelated topic: I know you are interested in the name Donbavand. Are you aware of this record? I realise it may not be of consequence but thought I'd mention it after I found it when investigating Simm ancestors.
Marriage: 2 Aug 1759 St Oswald, Winwick, Lancashire, England
James Simm - this Parish
Jane Key - (X), this Parish
Witness: James Bankes; William Donbavand
Banns Read: 15 Jul 1758, 2nd: 22 Jul 1759, 3rd: 29 Jul 1759
Married by Banns by: John Lowe Curate
Maybe a lack of baptism could be explained by this document taken from the registers of County Carlow in Ireland?
Baptism of VALENTINE WALL of N/R
on 14 February 1708
Parish/Church/Congregation - TULLOW
Area - CARLOW (COI)
It's only 7 years from Andrew Alston's theory of a 1700 birth year, and this Valentine's father is Robert Wall.
Interestingly this Valentine was born on Valentines day (Hence the origin of the name?)