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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Munch on Wednesday 13 February 13 23:01 GMT (UK)
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Trying to find a birth cert for Leslie Herbert Quigley AKA Frank King. born 12.12.1917 in Fitzroy, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Not sure which name is the legitimate one. With thanks.
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Birth:
QUIGLEY Leslie Herbt b. 1917 HAWTH #4191
Father: Geo
Mother: Elsie May DAVEY
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THanks Merlin.....
Question?
I have discovered that Leslie Herbert Quigley joined the forces under the name Frank King. So did Frank King actually exist (as in d.o.b, address, etc)? By that i mean is Frank King the real name or is Leslie Quigley the real name???? Confused.com!
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His birth was registered as Leslie Herbert QUIGLEY so that was his "real" name, though he could use any name he chose. I don't think the army really cared if the men used an alias as long as it wasn't for illegal purposes. Did he die in an accident in 1944?
Debra :)
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Debra,
glad to say Les lived to the age of 74yrs, dying in 1992. :'( From what i can gather he enlisted under the alias of Frank King and did a "runner" a year later! :-X I think he carried that burden for many years and would never talk about his family in Australia but i'm sure he missed them. :'(
Thank you & Merlin for all your help.
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Possabily his military details ??
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=418435
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Debra,
glad to say Les lived to the age of 74yrs, dying in 1992. :'( From what i can gather he enlisted under the alias of Frank King and did a "runner" a year later! :-X I think he carried that burden for many years and would never talk about his family in Australia but i'm sure he missed them. :'(
Thank you & Merlin for all your help.
Ok, I just thought this may have been him as his death reg. gives his mother's name as Elsie May, but I think there were two Elsie May QUIGLEYs in Vic. I now see that his death was also registered as BACKHOUSE. There are stories about them in the news involving a shooting, and looks like a bit of a tangle to work out the relationships so I hope they're not yours.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11820319
Debra :)
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hi
On the National archives site http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/using/search/ there is a file on Elsie May Quigley and Albert George Quigley - a son Herbert aged 14 in 1932 also contains the the Names Davey and Backhouse
Muss
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Debra,
glad to say Les lived to the age of 74yrs, dying in 1992. :'( From what i can gather he enlisted under the alias of Frank King and did a "runner" a year later! :-X I think he carried that burden for many years and would never talk about his family in Australia but i'm sure he missed them. :'(
Thank you & Merlin for all your help.
What makes you believe the 2 men are one in the same please?
Sue
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The ww2 record for FRANK KING is digitised at NAA.
His brother GEORGE was Next of Kin.
He was born in Fitzroy in Dec 1917.
Can you highlight the connection for us?
Sue
ADDING
There is a photo of KING. Do you recognise him?
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A crew list on the Queen Mary Southampton, England arriving New York, 29 May 1946:
Leslie Herbert QUIGLEY male, 28yrs born Melbourne, Australia - SEAMAN
Last permanent address Liverpool, England.
5'7", dark complexion, black hair, brown eyes.
Wife - Mildred QUIGLEY - 28 Vermont Rd, Liverpool.
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Marriages Mar 1944
QUIGLEY Leslie H Crosby 8b/876
ROWLANDS Mildred Crosby 8b/876
Cando
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Trying to find a birth cert for Leslie Herbert Quigley AKA Frank King. born 12.12.1917 in Fitzroy, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Not sure which name is the legitimate one. With thanks.
glad to say Les lived to the age of 74yrs, dying in 1992.
QUIGLEY Leslie Herbert 75 years
Birth Date 12 Dec 1916
Jun 1992 Birmingham 32/1324
Cando
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Parents marriage
QUIGLEY George born Carlton
DAVEY Elsie May born Carlton North
1908 Reg#9297
Brother George
QUIGLEY George Rupert
Father George Mother Elsie May DAVEY
At East Melbourne 1913 Reg#14418
I see a private tree on ancestry has photo of Leslie H c1939. Is this the photo from the enlistment in the CMF as Frank KING.
Cando
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Long story short....
I knew Leslie Herbert Quigley all my life. He was married to my Mother's sister and it was a 2nd marriage. A grand-daughter of his (from the 1st marriage) contacted me via Ancestry, asking did i know that he had been married previously (YES i did) and what did the name "Frank King" mean to me? It meant nothing until i started investigating....
I came across the attestation papers of Frank King and lo & behold, there was my Uncle Les staring back at me across 70 yrs.......he was unmistakable!
I know that he was dishonourably discharged having repeatedly gone AWOL, and my heart goes out to the gentle, frightened young man that he was. Even in old age, my Uncle Les was a gentle, compassionate, wise man. I have constantly wondered what the real story is behind this and no matter what i find, he will still be "my Uncle Les".
@ Cando... the private tree on Ancestry is mine, and yes, the photo is from his attestation papers under the name of Frank King.
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Hi, im trying to look up my grandfather harold douglas quigley,from what i can find i think he is Leslie's brother ,if you have any links to information that could help that would be great,
Cheers darren morgan
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About the name change. Two of my relatives enlisted under their real names and were subsequently rejected (various reasons) so they re-enlisted under different names and were accepted. Perhaps this is the case here.
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Les is my grandfathers brother, im trying to find out more about their
father george, and any photos of les or his brothers and sisters ( i belive there are 11)
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Hi, I'm trying to look up my grandfather harold douglas quigley,from what i can find i think he is Leslie's brother ,if you have any links to information that could help that would be great,
Cheers darren morgan
Les is my grandfathers brother, im trying to find out more about their
father george, and any photos of les or his brothers and sisters ( i belive there are 11)
@ Morgo57.....Leslie Herbert Quigley was my uncle by marriage. He rarely spoke about his Australian family, not sure why, but he did mention 2 sisters. I vaguely remember an "Ada" but i could be mistaken there. It's 22 yrs since his death & i still miss his gentle, kind & wise manner. :'(
@ Jennaya.... This could indeed be the reason for the alias.....We may never know for sure. :-X
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Les is my grandfathers brother, im trying to find out more about their
father george, and any photos of les or his brothers and sisters ( i belive there are 11)
Morgo57 I assume that it is your tree on ancestry with Harold Douglas's birth certificate attached with all the previous of the issue of the marriage listed.
This marriage certificate will give you both the bride's and groom's parents details. There are a number of Elsie May DAVEY's born in the 1880's.
Parents marriage
QUIGLEY George born Carlton
DAVEY Elsie May born Carlton North
1908 Reg#9297
There is a digitised WW1 service file on NAA for George.
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx
Addresses and letters from the Victorian Police in the service file confirm that this is George in this court report.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019c5/
Australian Electoral Roll
1924
QUIGLEY George 18 Murchison Street, Carlton South Stevedore
1931, 1936, 1943
QUIGLEY George 14 High Street, Carlton South Labourer
Possible death
QUIGLEY George
Father Samuel Alphonsus Mother Harriet LALOR
At Heidelberg 1947 58 years Reg#5722
Cando
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Possibly not the sort of photo of George that you were looking for, but it is a good one.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019cn/
Debra :)
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Well after reading this document, it seems that George QUIGLEY was not the father of most of Elsie's children.
Search for Elsie May QUIGLEY
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx
I think this might be the father
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019co/ (page 1)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019cq/ (page 2 - page 1 uncovered)
Links to the articles I mentioned earlier
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4586934
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/74797709
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/140264143
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4585232
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4582305
At least they are an interesting family ;D
Debra :)
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Interesting that connection to a rather well known Family, sort of infamous!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moran_family
Neil ;)
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Well.......i don't know what to say after all the information that has been forthcoming. :o........ except perhaps Leslie Herbert Quigley was right to use an alias to escape his background. (Smiling brightly & giving a thumbs up!)
Looking at the photos attached to the records, i do see a resemblance. The men all have similar height, weight & colouring.......and that leads me to the conclusion that it was a rather large & extended family.
I haven't, as of yet, quite worked out the relationships between them all but there's time enough for that.
Les was a quiet, unassuming, gentle man, who had the courage to rise above his origins.....and i for one, am enriched by having had the pleasure of his company for many years.
He is gone, but never forgotten. :'( :-*
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:o Just trying to fit some pieces together from my husbands family. His mum was Ethel Quigley. I am sure her brother was Les and he came to visit us in Bendigo Victoria.Would be great to get more family info.
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Hi Julie :)
Welcome to rootschat :)
If Ethel QUIGLEY is deceased could you please give us a little more information eg her date of birth etc. Was QUIGLEY her maiden or married name? Do you have the names of her parents?
I will mention here that we are not permitted to post details of living people on rootschat.
Cheers :)
Cando
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Hello,
I married Thomas Bennett Ethels son. Her maiden name was Quigley and after some searching perhaps Quigley Backhouse. Her father was George and her mum was Elsie May Davey.Her mum lived with her in the later years and died in 1971 at Bendigo Victoria, but there seems to be 2 Elsie May Quigleys. Ethel lived with us at her time of death in 1998 (28/8/1998). She had 7 children.
:) Julie
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Starting with what you know to be correct.
Her mum lived with her in the later years and died in 1971 at Bendigo Victoria
Death
FISHER Elsie May
Father George DAVEY Mother Elsie May JARVIS
At Bendigo 81 years 1971 Reg#26893
This certificate would be useful if the informant had accurate information about Elsie and her marriage to George QUIGLEY and the names of all her children.
Possible birth as info on death certs is not always accurate.
DAVEY Elsie May
Father William Henry Mother Elizabeth Ann JARVIS
At Fitzroy South 1890 Reg#32377
Do you have any certificates?
This marriage certificate would give you Elsie's parents' names.
QUIGLEY George born Carlton
DAVEY Elsie May born Carlton North
1908 Reg#9297
Australian Electoral Roll
1954
BENNETT Ethel Florence Nullawill HD
BENNETT Thomas Henry E Nullawill Carrier
1963
BENNETT Ethel Florence 28 Quick Street, Sandhurst East HD
1968
BENNETT Ethel Florence 28 Quick Street, Sandhurst East HD
BENNETT Thomas Henry E 28 Quick Street, Sandhurst East Carrier
FISHER Elsie May 28 Quick Street, Sandhurst East HD
Buried 1 Sep 1998 at Bendigo Cemetery Section Lawn 7 Grave#48449
BENNETT Ethel Florence died 28 Aug 1998.
When did Elsie May married Mr FISHER?
Cheers
Cando
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Did Elsie May have a daughter Adelaide?
QUIGLEY Adelaide Victoria.
Hospital record 14 Jan 1928
Fairfield, Victoria
Age 6 months
Source: Queen's Memorial Infectious Diseases Hospital (later known as Fairfield Infectious Diseases Hospital): record of patients.
Comment: Parent or Guardian: Quigley, George
Cando
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Hi nice to hear from you. We have Ethel's Death certificate but not sure how accurate the info is. We have a copy of a marriage no 9297 between Quigley and Davey in 1908 which includes parents names. Ethel spoke about Adelaide, and I met John, Les and Elsie the youngest child. We have no idea about where the name Fisher comes from. There is mention of Elsie May Davey's death in 1967 ??? We also have the names of other children.
:) Julie
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We have a copy of a marriage no 9297 between Quigley and Davey in 1908 which includes parents names
The more information you give us the more we can help you. :)
Her mum lived with her in the later years and died in 1971 at Bendigo Victoria
As you can see according to the electoral rolls I posted, Elsie May FISHER was living with Ethel Florence and Thomas Henry BENNETT prior to her death in 1971.
Death
FISHER Elsie May
Father George DAVEY Mother Elsie May JARVIS
At Bendigo 81 years 1971 Reg#26893
Buried at Bendigo
FISHER Elsie May Buried 28 Oct 1971 Mon 07, Grave#43275
I suggest you purchase that death certificate even though it may have inaccurate information however her marriages should be listed and her children should be named on the certificate.
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=purchaseImage
Cando :)
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We have a copy of a marriage no 9297 between Quigley and Davey in 1908 which includes parents names
Are these the names of her parents on the marriage certificate?
Birth
DAVEY Elsie May
Father William Henry Mother Elizabeth Ann JARVIS
At Fitzroy South 1890 Reg#32377
Cando
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:) Yes
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Julie we are all volunteers on rootshat who enjoy helping people with their family research. It is a two way street...we post what we find and I only think it appropriate that you respond with a little more than a 'Yes'. The OP who lives in Ireland may be interested in the information on Elsie May's marriage and death certificates eg details of parents and father's occupation etc and if you have the death cert, marriages and ages and who she married, cause of death, names of issue of the marriage etc. Perhaps you could send her a personal message by clicking under the icon on her name.
Cando
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Sorry I didn't know how much to write and who too ,I will do my best to rectify this.
Julie
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That's OK Julie...never too much info that may help us to help you :)
Cheers :)
Cando
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Hi all,
I'm also interested in any info about the above family.
Julie is my auntie I believe ( Hi Auntie Julie! :) ) and Ethel was my grandmother. I believe that she may have had a brother William too.
I have just got back from a trip to England where I met one of Lesley Quigley's sons and his granddaughter.
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Apparently Leslie left a wife back in Australia when he enlisted as Frank King-maybe that has something to do with his alias? I don't know if there were children from this first marriage.
He was supposedly still married to his Australian wife when he married his first English wife-therefore committing bigamy (according to this wife, he was also engaged to a girl in South Africa at the time of marrying). There were 2 sons from that marriage (who ended up seeing very little of him)-which didn't last. He then married again and had more children- one of whom travelled to Australia with him when he made that trip.
An interesting side note is that his elder son from his second wife and a daughter from his final marriage were both named after their father. :)
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Well! Who knew that Les (Aka Frank King) was such a dark horse? :o
I was interested in the idea that he already had a wife in Australia before he enlisted with the alias of Frank King.
Have you found the document (s) to prove that ? Or is this hear-say? ???
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Frank KING named his brother George as NOK when he enlisted. Usually the enlistee's wife is NOK ie if he is married. Frank also stated he was single on 3 Nov 1939.
http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/NAAMedia/ShowImage.aspx?B=6219434&S=1&T=P
If he married in Australia then it was possibly after he was struck off as an illegal absentee in 24 Jun 1940 however he married in 1944 in England.
A couple of possibilities - and these are the only Frank KING marriages in Victoria to 1942, limit of indexes. The marriage certificates names the parents of the bride and groom and including the mothers' maiden names however Frank may not have been truthful considering he had changed his name.
KING Frank
DRURY Avis Grace
1940 Reg# 5190
KING Frank
McQUALTER Jean Margaret
1940 Reg#7351
Cando
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Just had a quick look at the 2 marriage certs for Leslie Herbert Quigley....
The 1st to Mildred Rowlands in 1944...Les states that his Father is called Herbert Quigley ( a deceased steeplejack)
In the 2nd marriage to Collette Walton, Les states that his father is called William Quigley (a deceased soldier)
I can't see that he would have used his alias of Frank King to marry in Australia before joining up in 1939. Also i can't see that he used his given name of Leslie Herbert Quigley to marry pre 1939 in Australia.
Puzzled.com!
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The 1st to Mildred Rowlands in 1944...Les states that his Father is called Herbert Quigley ( a deceased steeplejack)
In the 2nd marriage to Collette Walton, Les states that his father is called William Quigley (a deceased soldier)
Herbert...William QUIGLEY...neither are correct.
i can't see that he used his given name of Leslie Herbert Quigley to marry pre 1939 in Australia.
Not all States have marriages to 1939 online so where did you search? There is no central bdm registry in Australia. You have to search the States and Territories individually.
There are no marriages for Frank KING in Victoria until 1940....I have my own resource.
Perhaps Deezy could give some further information eg names.
Cando
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Cando.....I have been back over his attestation papers to see if i have missed something there.
i have searched for a marriage pre 1939 enlistment in the name of Frank King and Leslie Herbert Quigley (and all possible variations of names!) via Ancestry.com ??? ??? ???
Interestingly, i have noticed that since finding out about the alias name being used, the trees containing him as Leslie Herbert Quigley have gone from public to private!!! The plot thickens! lol ;D
I welcome any help, no matter where it brings me. 8)
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Hi all- the information about his being married in Australia came from his son. I haven't searched anything myself as I have only been home from the UK a week and was straight back to work.... :)
Edited to add that Elsie May had a son with George Quigley, who was named George ( so he is a legitimate Quigley and Lesley's elder brother)- I find it interesting that the NOK on the attestation papers is George "King"; possibly George Quigley signing but using "King" as well?
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i have searched for a marriage pre 1939 enlistment in the name of Frank King and Leslie Herbert Quigley (and all possible variations of names!) via Ancestry.com ??? ??? ???.
Why are you searching for a marriage using Ancestry.com
Their online database is basically their attempt at an index of the already available, free to search indexes, used by many long before Ancestry came along.
Just to confirm Ancestry says :
"..... Australia, Birth Index, 1788-1922 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2010.
Original data: Compiled from publicly available sources.
..... Australia, Death Index, 1787-1985 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2010.
Original data: Compiled from publicly available sources.
...... Australia, Marriage Index, 1788-1950 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2010.
Original data: Compiled from publicly available sources."
And of course, those publicly available sources that are freely available ONLINE have been linked at the Resources Boards for each of Australia's States and Territories at RootsChat :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/
Cheers, JM
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From Ancestry ::)
While these collections make up some of the most important indexes of early Australian marriage records, they are not necessarily 100 percent complete—compliance to registration laws, of course, varied, and Australia’s vast distances complicated most any record-keeping effort. In this collection records are available for the following span of years:
New South Wales — 1788-1945
Northern Territory — 1870-1913
Queensland — 1829-1935
South Australia — 1842-1937
Tasmania — 1803-1919
Victoria — 1836-1920
Western Australia — 1841-1950
Edited to add that Elsie May had a son with George Quigley, who was named George ( so he is a legitimate Quigley and Lesley's elder brother)- I find it interesting that the NOK on the attestation papers is George "King"; possibly George Quigley signing but using "King" as well?
Firstly Frank could give any information he wished when enlisting....nothing was checked and possibly he added the surname KING to his brother George. We will never know.
If any of you are serious about finding a first marriage then perhaps those certs could be a starting point and the cost shared. It is also possible that Frank married but used another name as he was an illegal absentee and obviously wouldn't want to be found.
I wouldn't make too many statements about who were the fathers of Elsie May DAVEY's children...have you read ALL the thread but especially this post by Debra.
Well after reading this document, it seems that George QUIGLEY was not the father of most of Elsie's children.
Search for Elsie May QUIGLEY
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx
I think this might be the father
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019co/ (page 1)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019cq/ (page 2 - page 1 uncovered)
Links to the articles I mentioned earlier
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4586934
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/74797709
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/140264143
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4585232
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4582305
At least they are an interesting family ;D
Debra :)
Cando
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Yep-read those links. Quite the family history tumbling out of the closet!
My only real interest in Lesley Herbert Quigley is that he was an older brother of my grandmother (she told me about him a couple of years before she died-and gave me an envelope with the address of his daughter in the UK)-and that a few weeks ago I was able to meet one of his sons (my mum's cousin) and his (Lesley's)granddaughter. We had made contact via Ancestry.com about 18 months ago.
The meeting opened up even more questions about the family-most will probably never be answered! :)
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Cando.....I have been back over his attestation papers to see if i have missed something there.
i have searched for a marriage pre 1939 enlistment in the name of Frank King and Leslie Herbert Quigley (and all possible variations of names!) via Ancestry.com ??? ??? ???
Interestingly, i have noticed that since finding out about the alias name being used, the trees containing him as Leslie Herbert Quigley have gone from public to private!!! The plot thickens! lol ;D
I welcome any help, no matter where it brings me. 8)
I was actually addressing my reply to Munch - she started the thread :)
Cando