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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: crosshands on Tuesday 19 February 13 18:20 GMT (UK)
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Hi – I am seeking information on the ancestors of John Graham, a boot maker in Kilkeel, Co. Down. Born 28 Nov 1851, I have found him on the 1901 & 1911 census but can’t locate any ‘record’ of his birth or marriage. Married Margaret Jane Scott on 28 Sept 1875 at the Mourne Presbyterian, Kilkeel.
These dates come from family anecdotal information along with the following:
John & brother George, were children of John Graham and Margaret Irvine. They married 1837 in Kilkeel and it is assumed they both come from there and must have been born around 1810/20. No records found.
John & brothers William, James, Thomas, were children of James Graham (born possibly c.1795?) and Mary Lindock. Marriage date and location unknown. It is said that James was born in Dumbarton, Scotland and came to Ireland as a soldier (81st Foot Regiment of Scotland – but can’t find this outfit) where he then settled.
Clearly, this is a fairly common name which doesn’t help in finding records but if anyone could assist me in locating evidence to support the family story, I would be forever grateful.
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The marriage is mentioned here with the source CR = civil record:
John GRAHAM Kilkeel married Margaret Jane Scott 28 Sep 1875 at Mourne Presbyterian Church
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/SURNAMES/G/GrahamAJ.htm
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Hi,
The fathers of John Graham and Margaret Jane Scott were John Graham and Duncan Scott.
Regards
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Thanks to you both. The Ros Davies info is interesting; I guess ordering the cert of marriage for John & Margaret in 1875 wouldn't tell me anymore than we now know?
The reference to a parish record for George bapt 1844 with a wife of Margaret Irvine at the Mourne Presby church suggests that generation is in the same area. I wonder if the John Graham married to Keown is the same person, first marriage or another family altogether (if John Graham born 1851 had children by 1867 he was a bit young?).
Is the Ros Davies info all that will be available from parish records or could there be more and where would I find it? If the marriage to Irvine was 1837, would it be CRO or just parish record?
Any more ideas would be gratefully received. Thanks
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Civil registration of Catholic marriages started in 1864 and from 1845 for non-Catholic marriages so for earlier dates you need to see if church records exist.
See here for details included on marriage certificates-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,433042.0.html
Ros Davies' website is a database of material that she has collected.
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I spend a few days at the PRONI in Belfast last year but didn't get any further than this. John Graham who married Margaret Scott, had a father called John graham. I was able to go back two more generations with Margaret Scott.)
I am planning to try the churches in Kilkeel in September to see if I can find more information about my great, great grandfather. I want to confirm who his mother was. I too found a link to Margaret Irvine on line. My grandmother had a family bible (as a child) which had the generations going back to Scotland (Grahams of Claverhouse) but we haven't been able to find who has that.
Will post if I find any more leads.
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Hi - iconone. Thanks for the post and I would love to have any information you manage to obtain/already hold. There is a lovely historian in Kilkeel who sent me some old pics of the Bootshop in Greencastle Street where the Graham's lived and where my mother-in-law remembers visiting as a child. I did contact an elderly relative who still lived in the area (John Graham/Margaret Scott had 10 children - she was the daughter of Thomas Graham, one of their children).
The family story is that the Grahams are descendants of the Earl of Montrose and John Graham had run off with a servant when she became pregnant but this has never been proven (and my mother-in-law was none best pleased when I found out it was unlikely, at least in the near generations) .
Are you willing to let me know where you fit in to the Graham tree/who your gt,gt grandfather is?
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Hi
My grandmother was Ivy (Isabella) Graham, daughter of John Graham and Margaret Scott. She was born 1900 and married Thomas Logan, she died in 1987. Her parents were married 28/09/1875 at Mourne Presbyterian Church. I have a copy of this marriage certificate. His father is referred to as James Graham in one document so I think James and John are interchangeable. I visited the house on Greencastle street a number of times as a child and meet some of her brothers and Maud. Maud's son is also trying to research the family but like me got stuck too. My grandmother only told the story of Earl of Montrose when my mother (as a young child) met a women who worked for the Montrose family and was not only surprised at the likeness of her boss to my mother but that she had the same streak of white hair in the front of her head. The story I heard was one of differences in belief. At that time the Montrose family were Anglicans and he had become a non conformist. No evidence for this.
I spoke with my Maud's son. He said John Graham (b 1851) had been a lay preacher in the
Presbyterian church, he left and the baptists wanted him to train to be a pastor with them but he had a big family to support. He thought they went to both the Baptist church and then the Brethren.
Duncan immigrated to the US (1929 census). He was in the B specials and was beaten badly by the IRA. I understood this was his reason for leaving Ulster. I remember he came and stayed with us when I was young. He married Margaret Trimble and lived in Allegheny, Pittsburg, PA. His brother, George also lived there for some time - found him 1930 on US census but his wife wasn't there. Both brothers worked in watch repair. My grandmother said her father, John Graham (b 1851) could repair any watch and taught her his skills. So although his shop was a shoe shop, he also did watch repair. Check the US census 1931 Duncan 30 M - he states his father was from Scotland??, wife Margaret 25, Brother George 40 yrs but he states his father was from NI, daughter Margaret 9months and Brother in law Robert Trimble 23 were all living together. Both brothers were watch makers, Duncan in a department store and jewellery store.
Ellis Island landing
First Name: George
Last Name: Graham
Ethnicity: British
Last Place of Residence: Kilkeel, Ireland
Date of Arrival: Apr 14, 1913
Age at Arrival: 19 Gender: M Marital Status: S
Ship of Travel: Caledonia
Port of Departure: Londonderry
Manifest Line Number: 0008
William emigrated to New Zealand - He was with the 13th Rifle regiment in Soames.
Elizabeth (Bessy) became a member of the Plymouth Brethren - I remember they weren't able to eat at the same table as the rest of the family. Bessy and Walter Balsom lived in Dublin for some time.
We also have a pdf of the Ulster Covenant (sheet 2498) with the signature of William, Thomas and James. Ellen Jane married twice. Brought her first husband's ashes on a cruise and met her second husband there. Lived in London and then Southhampton. My mother has confirmed this information.
I think that is most of the information I have. Will post if I can find anything else. Many records were destroyed in a fire so have to rely on church records. However, there are so many John and James grahams so if is difficult to know when you are on the right path.
regards,
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Thanks - I will work through the info. My wife's grandmother was Ellen Jane - met her a few times and she had a strong Scottish accent which I guess gave rise to the 'family story'. We know that she went to Canada as a young girl but didn't stay long and then must have become a nurse in WW1 where she met her first 'husband' John Coleman who was in the army. They didn't actually marry as her was already married but separated. They had 2 sets of twins - 2 boys Charles Graham & John Percy (Graham went to live in South Africa, and Percy lived in London; both have now died). Then girls Margaret and Ellen Jean - both still very much alive, the latter my mother-in-law. As you say, John Coleman died and Ellen Jane met Richie (Albert John Richards) who was a waiter on the P&O cruise ships and they married 1951 and lived in several places before ending in Bideford where she died; he went to Bude (born in Tintagel) and lived with his sister before he died.
It's strange that people seem to use their second names in the family - by Maud, I assume you mean Agnes Maud who married Dudley Wallace. The relative I spoke to who still lived in Kilkeel was Mrs C L Annett.
I have a few old photos which I shall try to attach in next post - good luck in Kilkeel.
David
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Ellen Jane and Margaret's mother
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John & Margaret and Greencastle Street
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HI
Attached are photos of John Graham and Margaret Scott and Ivy (Isabella) and Thomas Logan. Ivy is Ellen's sister and my mother was always told she was named after her but was called Ella. She too is known by her second name Sylvia. Just spoke with my mother who remembers Ellen well. She visited her a number of times.
Linda
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Hi Linda - at least we have the same pic of John & Margaret and it's good to have a photo of Ivy which I shall show my mother-in-law.
Also, I think that I am aware of your mum - she is Dave Macs sister in law and I have you both on my Ancestry tree courtesy of him (and you use your second name as well!).
David
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Hi again Linda - just been working through your post, very interesting! Are you saying you have copy of Graham/Scott marriage in 1875? If so, any chance of posting a copy/pic as I would love to see it. As you know, there are records/references to John Graham, mother = Margaret Irvine but that John was born 1847 and father was Joseph Graham. As I said, my info of past Grahams came from Mrs Annet in Kilkeel but I never established from her where she gained the information. I remember that I did ask her if there were any gravestones in the churchyard and she said 'no'. I also wrote to the Mourne Pres Church but never received any reply and think I got the impression from her that what she said was all anybody knew and not to bother the church. If you were thinking of going to Kilkeel, visiting her might yield answers (my last letter didn't get any reply). Equally, if what Maud's son said was true and he left them, this might explain things. My mother-in-law clearly remembers going to the church with the family when she visited.
Have you found any record for John Graham's death which might fix his birth?
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Hi David,
I have a copy of the wedding certificate and am happy to share it, but need to find where I put it first. I did find a copy of the death certificate of John Graham but not his birth certificate. There is no record of a birth certificate at the Proni ( I checked that last time - maybe destroyed in the fire). So my next plan was to check with the church. I will ask my mother about graves and let you know. It may be that he was buried in another church. My mother should know where her grandfather was buried. I think his father was either John or James (from the marriage certificate but we can check that when I find it).
It has been frustrating not to able to get any further back. We did meet one of the Kilkeel relatives when my grandmother was still alive but didn't get any information from her. My grandmother thought she had the family bible but she said she didn't.
I will post the info I have as soon as I find where I put it when I tided up.
Linda
Ps David Mac is my uncle (my dad's half brother) He has done a lot of work on the McMenemy tree.
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I did find a copy of the death certificate of John Graham but not his birth certificate. There is no record of a birth certificate at the Proni ( I checked that last time - maybe destroyed in the fire). So my next plan was to check with the church. I will ask my mother about graves and let you know. It may be that he was buried in another church. My mother should know where her grandfather was buried. I think his father was either John or James (from the marriage certificate but we can check that when I find it).
No civil registrations (births, marriage, deaths) were destroyed- registration of births started 1864 so if you mean John Graham born 1851 then there would never have been a birth certificate for him.
It may be that there never was a headstone (most Presbyterian churches do not keep burial records although there may be a map showing the burial plots). Also try the local Church of Ireland since Presbyterians were entitled to burial there in early days and many families continued using the same plots- however, Presbyterian deaths may or may not be listed in the C. of I. burial register (many of these sent to Dublin for safekeeping were destroyed so many only go back to 1870s/1880s).
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I have a scanned pdf of the marriage certificate of John Graham but an error occurs when I try to load it.
Linda
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You are only allowed to post a small portion of the certificate for deciphering purposes.
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Hi Linda - have sent you a Personal Message with my email.
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Agnes Maud is my granny. She had 6 children including my mom evelyn Margareta 1925-86. I recognise the names and stories I think my uncle James Edward wallace/Jim may have the family bible. There was a letter written from the duke of montrose to My grandmother grandfather but I do not have a copy. Jim is old and childless, all the other siblings still alive are in Charleston s.c. and Zambia. My cousins contact Jim but he has been estranged from my side of family unfortunately.I live in L.A. California. I have twins. Maud had twins. It's genetic. I also know mom was raised Bretheren. Maud mom had a vision of Jesus or an angel when she was paralysed dying in bed She prayed not to die so she could look after all her kids. She was so scared she took to running downstairs and she was cured by grandpa was one of the few people who knew how to read and write in kilkeel and helped the community by reading and writing their letters. I Would love some old family photos. Fiona
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Ps Jim wallace lives in Bangor co down by the sea. Agnes Maud lived there for many years. She died I. The late eighties she was born in 1908.
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Welcome to Rootschat, Fiona. It's lovely when relatives make contact here but remember not to post details of living people :)
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Hi Fiona,
Lovely to hear from you. I will send photos but I may need your email address as last time I tried they were too big. I live in Vancouver, Canada and spend a few weeks in NI during Sept and Oct. My mother and I visited the church and found the family grave and some of the baptism records in the church. We meet someone who helped us find them and he knew my mother's uncle Thomas. He took over and ran the shop. He was known as a difficult character - my grandmother, Ivy (Maud's sister) told us her father had left some of the business to her ( she was good with money) but Thomas said women should have businesses. We have a picture of him sitting on the steps outside the shop. We also met a local historian who had published this picture and gave us a copy. We have confirmed all information going back to your grandmother's great grandfather's generation but can't get back any further at the moment. I have spoken with Jim Wallace a few time and he suggested some people to contact. Who are your parents?
If I am in LA, I will contact you,
Linda
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John and Margaret Graham Kilkeel
John born 28/11/1851 died 16/03/1941
Margaret Jane Scott born 1858 died 14/06/1945
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Ivy Logan (Isabella Evelyn Graham born 4/7/1900 died 14/02/1987)
Her husband Thomas Logan born 17/01/1900 died June 1987
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My mother was Maud`s daughter called Gretta, short for Evelyn Margaretta Wallace. So your grandmother Ivy was my great aunt. I remember meeting her as a child. My mom was born in kilkeel then moved as a child to Bangor. Her brother JIm has a twin sister who lives in Charleston south Carolina. 2 other sisters Joan and Rhoda are deceased having moved also to the USA. The other brother Graham Wallace lived all his life in Kenya and Zambia.
My mom married my dad David McMillan and I was born in 1964. My mom had been the widow of a john Ferguson before she met my dad in her late thirties They moved to England. MY DAD was from Glasgow. His mom and sister moved to Vancouver CA where I still have a cousin.
I remember mom mentioning the Logan's and mcnenemy family and I remember a visit by someone called MAC
Unfortunately I lost some of my family photos when I lived in In JORDAN.
I will ask my cousin Cathie about the bible etc
Great to find you cousin!
I have never been in a chat room before and apologise for not knowing the etiquette and rules
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Fiona as well as not posting details of lviing people we are not allowed to post email addresses. There is a PM (Personal Message) system which you can use instead- it's all explained in Help pages under Posting Guidelines (button at top of page).
To remove your email address, etc. just click on 'modify' on the post, make changes then save.
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Sorry thanks for the advice
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It's all for your own protection to prevent spam, etc. Looks like you've got lots of information and photos to exchange :)
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Hi Fiona - glad you have made contact with Linda and she has my email. My wife is same generation as you (granny being a John Graham daughter). Thought I would just touch base with you and query Agnes Maud d.o.b. You say 1908 but the 1911 census for Kilkeel has her listed as age 9, so this makes it 1902 or thereabouts. As such, she is the youngest child in the Graham family - do you agree / I assume you have seen the census which is available on a free link:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002245700/
Anyway, the info on your family was very useful to include in my Ancestry tree.
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1908 is the date I remember just by word of mouth from a question I asked as a child. It was not based on a document. Since you have the primary source then it must be correct. Thank You so much for sharing this information. Maud had, as i said, 6 children and most have passed away. I will contact my aunt and cousins and get their dates of birth and that branch of the family tree. Maud's daughter Rhoda passed away last year in south carolina. She was a GI bride in the war. She told me she altered her birth certificate to make herself a year older ( 16 instead of 15) so that she would qualify to sail over to the states as a "wife"! Again this is word of mouth. There is also a story I remember That Granny Maud told me of a boy in her family running away at the age of 12. He had argued with his Dad over reading a book in lamplight way after bedtime! Apparently he stowed away on a ship and arrived in the USA. The tale goes that he became a pilot in the Flying Tigers. I don't know if he was from the Graham or Wallace side.
If I find any family documents , old historically relevant letters or certificates and photos such as one I used to have of Maud as a teenager, I will post them. My cousins here in the states should have copies. Thank You.
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Hi Fiona,
Interesting stories which you don't get from the data.
The date of birth we have for Maud is 22/04/1902
Linda
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hello
i have a Graham family tree of the Graham of Ballinran Kilkeel starting with John abt 1790.there are two Graham grave in Kilkeel pres meeting house lane side by side but no names ,the one in the corner is the Graham of which are now near Rosterver ,the other one is the Ballinran Graham
Raymond
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Hello Raymond - just seen your post (Rootschat doesn't seem to send me notifications any more). Would be interested to see your tree and wonder if it fits with any of the people in my first post? Regards David
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Hello David
I have a Graham's family tree on ancestry.co.uk. I do not seem to have the Graham's you are talking about though. I would like to know more about John Graham and Margaret Jane Scott as most of the Graham's were presbyterian and not church of Ireland. Also I'm not too sure of who their fathers were, I think the Scott's came from ballinran Kilkeel. It would be interesting to see if the Graham's came from there too!
Thanks Raymond
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Thanks Raymond. I have put my Grahams on an open Ancestry tree (GrahamsofKilkeel). The only reference to Ballinran that I have is the death of a George Graham, born Kilkeel 20 Jan 1889 and died in Ballinran but I don't know the date or where I got this data from (perhaps I picked this up from your tree????). He married an Ellen Shields from Ballinran. I have the Scotts from Derryoge.
David
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Do you know what Margaret Trimble's parents' names were?
My grandfather's name was John Edgar Trimble, and he lived in Aliquippa, PA, where I was born. His father's name was also John Edgar Trimble, who was the son of Robert Trimble who came to the US when he was six months old with his father James Trimble (wife Margaret Elizabeth Graham) in 1846 from Enniskillen, Fermanaugh County, Ireland.
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Hi LadyLodge. I assume your comments come from iconone's post page 2 re Duncan Graham/ Margaret Trimble? I don't have a Margaret Elizabeth Graham in my records although 1846 is obviously early and my tree doesn't go that far back with accuracy. Graham seems a pretty common name in Ireland but it is possible they are all tied in somehow.
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Can I join in?
My grandmother was Elizabeth (Bessie) Scott Graham, b 20/3/1881, whose parents had a shoe store in Kilkeel, where she was working, when met my grandfather, and married him in 1901. The 1901 census has her as presbyterian.
I don't have more details, but from all the circumstances, names and dates, I'm guessing she was the daughter of John Graham and Margaret Scott.
If any of you can share any further info or pictures outside of what is on this thread, I would be extremely grateful, because until now, her past has been a total blank.
Naturally, I'd also like to catch up with anyone who is related to me, of course.
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Deleted
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Also for those who are interested
The 1911 census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/feedback/1911/Down/Kilkeel/Greencastle_Street/245444/) shows 8 of the 10 children, but not my grandmother Bessie, who was married and living elsewhere. However, it interestingly lists her eldest child, Walter J Balson. So if you wondered who that was, now you know :)
Another thing that may be of interest. I noticed a reference to the "brethren" in one of the comments. Bessie married a Plymouth Brethren member...
Finally, I haven't seen this reported here, which purports to be about son William in WW1
https://aughnahoorylol343b.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/private-willie-graham/
It seems the 1911 census misreported his age as 8, instead of 18, as you can see if you look at the handwritten form further down the page.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Kilkeel/Greencastle_Street/245444/
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Welcome aboard - more the merrier. One day we might be able to build the whole family! Have sent you a personal message (not the empty one -sorry) and hope the others will also say hello.
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Bessie had 10 children, including TWO sets of twins. Several of the children died young (there was a family story about their dad taking one pair out in the cold when they were very young, and they both died). My father was the youngest, and a twin (the other one died). Several of the sons moved to East Africa to try their luck, and stayed there.
Unfortunately, only two of all those children were left, by 1945, due to various misfortunes. I can provide more detail for anyone who is interested.
I've attached a photo of GreenCastle street.
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For those who haven't seen this, there is a list of who was living where at the 1901 census. The Grahams seem to be living in at least 3 houses
#4 = the main family
#28 = some other Grahams - unconnected?
#44 = Thomas, uncle of John Graham in #4
#57 = Bessie (my grandmother)
http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/down/census/greencastle-st.txt
The 1901 and 1911 census pages also have original copies of the handwritten forms, if you page down, and there are clear errors in the typed transcriptions if you look carefully
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Kilkeel/Greencastle_St__Kilkeel/1236119/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Kilkeel/Greencastle_Street/245444/
Errors in 1911:
William is reported at 8 instead of 18
Isabella E is reported as Isabella G
Ellen J is reported as 6 instead of 16 in 1911
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I've done some searching on historical newspapers, and found this interesting snippet from the Nenagh Guardian of 17 September 1851, which appears to support the Claverhouse connection.
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Another Kilkeel snippet from the Dundalk Democrat, Aug 31, 1850. This may or may not be the Thomas Graham who was the uncle of John Graham and was living with the family at the time of the 1901 census (aged 73) - although if it is him, he would have been only 22 in 1850.
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Hi I was doing research into a Willie Graham because as the Orange Hall in Kilkeel is being knocked down I came into posession of its old minute books.
There were about 17 names of members who served in WW1 and I took it upon myself to find out as much as I could about each one
Willie our lodge member was a son of John Graham and like his father was listed as a shoemaker. He was taken prisoner by the Germans in 1918. Its a fastening story as he was just approaching his 16th birthday when they captured him
I put it on our website plus there's links to the International Red Cross site where they recorded his POW info.
https://aughnahoorylol343b.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/private-willie-graham/
We also had a Private Uriah Graham a member of the Connaught Rangers but i'm not sure they were related.
https://aughnahoorylol343b.wordpress.com/2014/08/16/private-uriah-graham/
Theres an interesting tale I heard about one branch of the clan Graham when I was researching this, as they were allegedly Scottish outlaws and when things became too hot for them in their native Scotland they fled to Ulster and changed their name to Maharg which is Graham (Their original name) backwards in order to stay one step ahead of the pursuing authorities. In the traditional Scottish way this also became Mcharg for some.
Hope this helps
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See my comment a couple of items earlier - there was a transcription error in the 1911 census record. William was actually 10 years older than shown in the extract. I've provided a link to the census webpage, and if you look at the scan of the actual form (at the bottom of the page), you'll clearly see the error.
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Willie told the Germans that his birth date which they recorded in 1918 from what he told them himself was Wednesday 22nd of July 1903, but your mention of the census correction would tie in better with the Ulster Volunteer Force records for the period where Willie recorded his age as 21 years old. I dismissed this as many young boys of the period lied about their ages so they coul.d join up. The UVF were the anti home rule forerunner of the Ulster 36th Division which Willie became a member of
German POW record book below:-
http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/2867628/1872/24094/
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7298/16448257552_98590fdac4_o.jpg)
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It's very easy to resolve this.
Look at the 1901 census, where William is recorded as age 9, and that clinches it.
After all, he could hardly be shown in a 1901 census that took place before he was supposedly born in 1903, could he?
Further, I think the date in the German records is 23/7/92, not 22/7/03. 1892 would fit nicely and make everything make up.
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Haven't read through all the posts on this thread again but there's a birth registration for William Graham 23 July 1891 Kilkeel district with mother's name Scott.
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Yes, I can only see that one, nothing in 1892. There is a very detailed Graham family tree on Ancestry, which also shows July 1891.
The German record definitely says 1892, but it's hardly authoritative, compared to a birth record.
Both the 1901 and 1911 censuses were taken at end of March, before his birthday in July, so age 9 in 1901 supports a birth year of 1891. He would then have been 19 at the 1911 census date, so the census figure of 18 is one year out.
But on balance, the 1891 date looks solid to me.
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Looks like the UVF records are closer the mark here. It was there he was listed as being 21 when captured but its hard to make out the details from the photograph of the German record book. There were so many young chaps who falsified their records I thought perhaps Willie fell into that category and my initial check of the census seemed to confirm it.
The battle he was captured at was one of the first uses by the Germans of storm troopers. They deliberately bypassed strong points leaving them for troops following up behind them to take on. It proved their eventual undoing as after initial successes they by that stage of the war couldn't keep up replacing losses and the resources required.
The ground it raged over was largely the same area that the Battle of the Somme had been fought 2 years earlier and where the Ulster 36th Division of which Willie was a member had lost 5500 men in one day. In total the British army lost over 20,000 men that day 1st July 1916 it's biggest loss in battle ever recorded before or since.
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I investigated how the Grahams got to Ireland, and put this together from several sources. I haven't confirmed all the "facts" below, but I thought it was worth posting as a signpost to some interesting research.
The origins of the Grahams seem to be largely Anglo-Saxon by origin. They lived on the border of England and Scotland, and were no angels. They had became "border reivers" (outlaws), raiding cattle and burning castles belonging to their sworn enemies. But became worn down by the ever increasing success of the goverment forces and their local allies, they accepted they would have to move if they ever were to have a settled life again.
Most present day Graham's in Ireland stem from an extended family of that name who settled in White Park County Antrim in the early 1600's, having been banished as reivers from Scotland where they suffered from persecution and certain death, as a law had been passed that anyone by the name of Graham were to be hanged summarily.
It is no coincidence that the most prevalent christian name of this Irish Graham Clan became James, after one of six brothers, James, the others being, Josias, Alexander, Gawn, Samuel, David who set about creating a Grahamstown at beautiful Glenwherry, County Antrim, some half way between Ballymena and Larne. The significance of the name and the perpetuating of it in every generation of the family no doubt hinted that this was a branch of the famous Graham Clan of Sir James Graham,(1612-1650).
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Hi,
Just a general point. Many of the reivers and their families found it expedient to move away from the England/Scottish border and to move themselves as far from authority as possible. For this reason many of the border names, eg Graham and Armstrong etc, can be found in Co. Fermanagh.
Regards
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If you want to look way back, this page has a very detailed and interesting analysis of the DNA of various Scottish clans, including Graham
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/dna_by_surname_1.htm
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I noticed something very interesting about the parents of John Graham and Margaret Scott.
Their surnames are Graham, Irvine, Scott and Armstrong - all belonging to prominent border reiver families, all of them from South West Scotland. If (as this may suggest) the reiver descendants did tend to marry amongst themselves, our reiver bloodline may still be pretty strong.
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Here is a lovely photo, reportedly around 1907 according to the discussion under the photo. Bootshop sign is clearly visible just after the 8th upstairs window on the left.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/9506150747/
and this one too.
http://www.oldwarrenpointforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1711
The discussion suggests it is Newry St, but it looks very much like GreenCastle St ahead (as stated on the postcard), with Newry St joining it on the right.
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Good spot - better photo than the ones I presently hold. Would be lovely to think there are Grahams standing in the picture or perhaps they were too busy!
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I think the photo below may show John Graham (1851-1941) in his later years. The woman is Elizabeth (Bessie) Graham, with her son in the middle. The date is around 1935. Bessie was living in Dublin, not very far from Kilkeel.
The man on the right is unknown to present family members, but appears similar to the photo on this thread of John Graham.
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A couple more items of interest.
First, there has been reference to Brethren in this thread. I was curious because my grandmother Bessie Graham (b1881) married a Plymouth Brethren man, and I wondered what made him travel from England to Ireland, when the Brethren were notorious for not mixing with outsiders.
The answer may be that the Brethren actually originated in Dublin in the 1820's, and then spread to England soon afterwards. The Dublin connection and its proximity to Kilkeel may be why it had reached some of the Grahams, and it explains why my grandfather visited this part of Ireland. As my mother put it "the young Plymouth Brethren were thrown together as much as possible in order that they would marry each other and produce more little Brethren". It seems likely, therefore, that Bessie was already a Brethren member before meeting her husband.
The second thing is the book below, being reminiscences of a Kilkeel man born in 1879, so he grew up in the same era as many of the children of James and Margaret Graham. Although it never mentions Grahams, I think it's well worth a read to get a flavour for the times. It has some lovely stories.
http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/HughMarks1.htm
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The 1901 and 1911 census pages for the Grahams not only have scans of the handwritten forms (and I think John Graham filled out the 1901 form himself, because the handwriting matches his signature), but scans of other forms, including a record of who was in the shops along Greencastle street, and the number of rooms.
In 1901, the Grahams are shown at number 4, living in 6 rooms.
In 1911, number 4 is blank (a row of dashes), and John Graham and his boot shop are shown at number 61, with 11 people staying in 6 rooms (however, two of them, Herbert Buckley and Walter Balson, are visiting grandsons of Annie and Bessie, who are married and living elsewhere). The family census form confirms this, showing the street number 61. So it seems that the boot shop may have moved between about 1907 (the date of the photo in an earlier post above) and 1911.
And I have found another photo, showing Bessie and her family with a couple of Bessie's sisters, I'm guessing in the early 1920's judging by the age of the young boy at bottom right (my father), born in 1917. Bessie is on the right, and two of her sisters are on the left, named as Aunt "Gorly" and Aunt Maud respectively, by Bessie's daughter Olive (standing next to her mother), who labelled this photo.
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I have discovered something rather exciting - PRONI has the daybooks and ledgers of John Graham's shoe shop from 1886 to 1932. I have emailed PRONI about the cost of digitising them, but I fear it will be prohibitive. Perhaps a sample set of pages would be enough.
The best would obviously be to visit PRONI and view these documents, but I live in Australia. Suggestions welcome.
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A joint effort has uncovered the fascinating background to Margaret Scott, mother of John Graham of the boot shop.
Her grandfather was a Scottish soldier in the Napoleonic wars, and his story is told in a book wonderfully researched by someone in another branch of the Scott family.
We have also discovered his army records, including his plea for a pension due to his wounds.
You can find all these documents at <a href="https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0By-wnjsdtus1dHg4aC1ZRXFqZE0&usp=sharing">this link</a>.
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As I noted above, PRONI has the boot shop ledgers between 1887 and 1936. I hired a local researcher to go and look at them. He reported that they were rather dull, but there were some pages at the back of one of them with personal information on them, and he sent me copies, which I have scanned and put here for you to download (I recommend downloading rather than just viewing in the browser, because they are high resolution and you can zoom in for details).
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3bkcqq8diehsdnn/AACen3roBRITRQr8waLJ9tuRa?dl=0
(you can cancel the Dropbox login prompt that comes up)
To save you time, I've summarised what is on each page below
* Bootshop ledger page dated 1894 = details of transactions, nothing personal
* Bootshop ledger page dated 1897 = bank balance of 346 pounds in October 1897, plus addresses for John Graham and George Scott in America.
* Bootshop ledger undated p954 = couple of transactions, plus addresses for Isabella Burns, Jame Stevinson, Birt Buckley, Walter Balson, and a cute note from Margaret Graham at the bottom
* Bootshop ledger undated p956 = details of William Graham's costs for passage to the US, plus addresses for Isabella Burns, Walter Balson, AG Tilly
* Bootshop ledger undated p958 = details of pay for William Graham for work done in 1897, plus transactions, and address for Mr Ross
* Undated page from bootshop ledger = a very formal article (perhaps a draft of a letter to be published) written in or after 1916. There is no trace of this in Irish newspaper archives.
Enjoy.
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As the first post in this thread says, family sources claim that James Graham (born possibly c.1795?) married Mary Lindock. It is said that James was born in Dumbarton, Scotland and came to Ireland as a soldier in the 81st Foot Regiment of Scotland. Also that he may have run off with a pregnant servant, or had religious differences with his family.
There seems to be absolutely no information about either James Graham or Mary "Lindock" (probably phonetic spelling, in my view) in either Scottish or Irish records. I cannot find any candidates whatsoever, using the main genealogy websites.
Army records do show one James Graham in the 81st foot, getting a medal in the 1893-1913 Peninsular War (which means he must have joined the 81st on or before 1813), and available muster records show a Serjeant James Graham for two periods, Dec 1813-Mar 1813, and Oct-Dec 1815. But we don't know if this our James or not - he would have been rather young for that rank, perhaps, if born in 1795.
The 81st was in battles up to 1813, but was lucky to be absent from Waterloo, being assigned to guard hospitals and baggage in the rear. After spending time in Paris, it was posted to Ireland in April 1817, initially to the south around Cork, and newspaper reports show it marching north to Enniskillen and Cavan in June 1818. I cannot find any more traces of it until it left Ireland in 1822, but newspaper reports show there were certainly troops stationed in Dublin, and they were rotated fairly frequently, so there is every probability that the 81st came close to Kilkeel.
Additionally, I have found one reference to a previous visit of the 81st to Ireland in 1794, when it marched from Dublin to a townland just beyond Kilkeel. So there is some evidence for troops passing through Kilkeel.
I think that if James was in the 81st, we can see how he got to Ireland, and to Kilkeel, and (in my opinion) we don't need the reasons of pregnant servants or religious differences to justify him staying there - it was apparently quite common for ex soldiers to settle down where they had served, especially if they had found a partner there. And of course, another of our ancestors, Duncan Scott, did exactly that, too.
However, I didn't want discard the family stories, as they often contain a lot of truth, and so I investigated further, and I have the pleasure of presenting to you a speculative theory that explains both the pregnancy and the strange surname "Lindock".
There was a famous English general Thomas Graham, aka Lord Lynedoch [sounds like Lindock], named after his country property. Unfortunately, Thomas had no children and his title died with him, but there is another possibility.
Thomas Graham actively supported others in the Graham clan, including finding them posts in the military, and he was in regular contact with Grahams from the West of Scotland, where James was reputedly born. Also, the 81st foot served under him in Holland in 1814, the year before Waterloo.
It is possible that James joined the 81st via Thomas (surprisingly, in those days, the army was a popular choice for young men because if offered status and a regular job). And suppose James knew Thomas well enough to visit Lynedoch, perhaps after the war, and that he made a servant (Mary) pregnant. In those days, servants were often known locally by their master or farm name, giving us Mary Lynedoch, which becomes Mary Lindock phonetically. And he takes her off to Ireland when he is posted there.
It's a nice story, but I can't prove any of it.
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Do we know anything about any of the relatives and descendants of the Kilkeel Grahams in our family. Could they provide any clues to finding more about James Graham born 1795. I know John Graham born 1851 had a brother George born 1843. Did he have other brothers and sisters and who are their descendants. What about John Graham born 1820 (his father). Did he have brother and sisters and who are their descendants?
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Apparently (the first) John Graham had 3 brothers, but we don't know more.
I think the best bet may be the family bible, which is reputed to have the whole history in it. On page 3 of this thread, FionaScott says her uncle Jim may have it, but he is estranged from her side of the family.
I think this is definitely our strongest lead, and we should try to contact Jim and ask him to share the details with us. So I've altready tried contacting her to get his contact details, without success.
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A few updates.
1. Jim (mentioned above) doesn't have a family bible.
2. Duncan Scott (born 1795 in Scotland) had four brothers, James (baptised 1798), Donald (1800), Charles (1804) and Thomas (1806).
3. I have found a family tree for brother James, which ends in 1984, but because the tree is on FamilySearch, I can't track who put it there.
https://familysearch.org/tree/#view=tree&person=K4JR-C6Y&spouse=K8CJ-37T&parents=LV75-C64_LV75-CJT§ion=pedigree
4. Duncan's parents are hard to trace, because
(a) there is no Ann Binks (or any variation of Binks) listed on the main genealogy sites (I have seen one tree show her born in 1774, but without a source). However, there seems to be a cluster of Binks in the area north of Perth, up to Kinclaven, so it's very likely she came from there.
(b) there are about 6 Alexander Scott's born in Dull/Aberfeldy at about the right time. It could be any of them. But this concentration of Scott's at least suggests that Duncan's father was probably born in that area.
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I've done more research on James Graham, reportedly born in 1795 in Dumbarton.
There is only one matching record on the main genealogy sites, James Grahame, born in Old Kilpatrick, Dunbarton, in 1795, to Duncan Grahame and Elisabeth Gay. If this is him, we can dig back a bit further (accepting that this is somewhat speculative).
His parents were married on 12 December 1794, almost exactly 9 months before James' birth. Nearly 50 years later, in 1841, they were still living in Old Kilpatrick, with James' brother Robert, aged 30, who was a cotton spinner. They were in Faifley, which had large cotton mills with thousands of workers. Duncan was shown as a labourer.
Elisabeth Gay has only one matching online birth record, born 1776 in Port Glasgow (a little to the left of Dunbarton) to John Gay and Agnes Walker, neither of whom I can trace.
There is also only one matching record for Duncan Graham, born in 1771 at Rothesay, Bute (an island off the coast near Glasgow), to Angus Graham and Margaret Brown. His parents were married the previous year at Rothesay, and that record kindly gives us both fathers' names - Archibald Graham and Finlay Brown. Angus is a tenant farmer, and Finlay a "cottar" (someone who worked for his board and keep).
It should be possible to trace a name like Finlay, but I had no luck.
However, we do have a unique record showing Angus Graham born at Kildalton on Argyll, the large island to the left of Bute, in 1738, to Archibald Graham (no mother shown).
And because Kildalton is so small, we can be fairly sure that the 1729 marriage record at Kildalton for Archibald Graham and Kathrine Campbell, is for Angus's parents.
I couldn't go back any further because there were multiple options for each name.
However, IF this is James Graham's parentage, it is hard to see how he came from the Grahams of Montrose.
I have a couple of original document scans for anyone who is interested.
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One last update. I have researched the question of how both the Scottish soldiers Duncan Scott and James Graham ended up in Kilkeel, Ireland.
Britain had to keep a strong army in Ireland because of the threat of rebellion, after the failed uprising of 1798 (aided by a small French invasion), and the threats posed by the revolutions in France and America (much of which was due to ex-Irish and ex-Scots emigrants). It was not just Ireland - there were uprisings in England and Scotland, too.
So a number of regiments were stationed in different parts of Ireland (north and south), and then the soldiers were scattered in groups in villages, and billeted with locals, who were paid a small allowance. This led to very slack discipline and fraternisation with locals, especially women, so the regiments were moved around regularly.
Kilkeel was a small town, but it had an important revenue collecting centre nearby at Ballyvea, and we know the soldiers played a role in protecting the revenue officers. The Mourne coast also had a lot of smuggling, which was another reason for having soldiers there, because smugglers were prepared to shoot to avoid capture.
Duncan Scott's 42nd regiment spent 5 months in the Kilkeel area at the end of 1818, and his first child was born in 1819. His regiment was transferred to Dublin in mid 1819, and he was only discharged from the army in April 1820, so Sara may have been alone for much of the pregnancy and birth.
We can't be sure exactly when James Graham's 81st regiment came near Kilkeel, but it was posted to Ireland in 1817, and certainly spent some time in Ulster. Like Duncan, he was probably also billeted in Kilkeel for a while and met his future wife there.
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I have had no luck tracing a Robert Graham who supposedly married my Margaret Beggs, who was born July 31, 1852 in Ballyvoy, Co. Antrim, Ireland. So marriage likely anytime after 1870.
Does anyone know of this couple? I did find the death of a Robert Graham on Dec 27, 1864 in Drummadarragh and wondered if he could be the father of my Robert. Several of Margaret's cousins were born in Drummadarragh.
Thanks for any help
Peggy
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While one of the Graham ancestors, Margaret Armstrong, was born in Antrim in about 1827, none of the Kilkeel Grahams had any connection there, as far as I know.
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To Crosshands : David you sent me a message via Ancestry. My subscription is no longer current so I am unable to reply via that forum. If you wish to send your email address via another private message I will be able to reply. Our Grahams were also bootmakers but lived in Carlisle and Kirklinton. Our John Graham b 1809 seems to have disappeared c1851 whilst on an advance trip to the US looking to resettle the family. The pictures I have posted on Ancestry are copies from church registers or photos of grave headstones (also have copies of wills etc). Very difficult to distinguish who's who family wise, but found many of them buried together at Kirklinton (thanks to a good local researcher William Bundred). OurGraham family were originally Scottish, said to have been displaced after the Jacobite uprisings. Regard .. Liz
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Thanks to cousin Jim, we now have a copy of the "Montrose letter" mentioned on page 3 of this thread.
The letter didn't make a very strong connection with Montrose - the key part reads - "you certainly seem to be one of her family, all your names are family names but her father was John also; his father was Robert who married Miss Lennox and previously the Baronet Sir Robert Graham who married Lady Lennox".
Crosshands and I have researched the ancestors mentioned in the letter and discussed it with a descendant of the woman who wrote it, in reply to an enquiry from John (bootshop) Graham in 1919. While confirming most of the statements above, we weren't able to identify any obvious baronets or ladies, as far back as 1720, which is as far back as we could go. There is also no apparent family connection between the two families of Grahams.
Nevertheless, there are some interesting aspects to the story, such as the court case that may have sparked John Graham's interest in the first place - and which I've summarised here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By-wnjsdtus1Njh5dGRtUnluelU/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By-wnjsdtus1Njh5dGRtUnluelU/view?usp=sharing).
Having read this, you should look carefully at the photo therein and ask yourself "Do I have the Lennox chin?" (which was put forward as a proof of Lennox descendancy). If so, then maybe we are connected to them after all! ;D
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I have been asked to draw up some histories ok Kilkeel men for the 100th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme in July this year 2016.
Does anyone know if there is a surviving photo of Pte Willie Graham? Also reference the Scott connection I am aware of two Kilkeel Scotts with a military connection. One was Thomas Galbraith Scott – RAF Cadet the other was Sergeant Robert Scott VC leading Aircraft Man No: 4535
I dont know if they were related. Any help greatly appreciated
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The only photo we have of Willie Graham was taken in 1960 - nothing in uniform.
The Scotts you mention are unknown to us.
In case you don't have this one, there was a family of McKnights living in Derryogue in 1911, headed by Robert and Jane, with 8-9 kids. Their son Robert was killed in WW1, but I don't have a reference handy.
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(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7564/26534429233_7d3966f3e6_o.jpg)
A friend from Derryogue brought me the above photograph. I believe it is of the soldier Robert Mcknight who you mention. He was killed at the battle of Cambrai. There was also a L/Cpl John Mcknight of 13th RIR also from Derryogue.
Yes I would be very greatful to find a copy of the 1960 photo of Willie. If you could upload a copy somewhere. (I uploaded this one on my Flickr page)
The Sgt Robert Scott VC was an interesting character. Hes the only man who it is said fought in three wars. He won his VC in the Boer war. He went on to serve in the 1st war. He was initially turned down for service in WWII. He wrote to a personal friend from his South African days a certain Mr Churchill who spoke to the RAF saying FIND THAT MAN A JOB! So they did!
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Here is a picture of William Graham, in the early 1960's
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Fantastic thanks very much indeed for this. Here is a draft of the front page of the leaflet im working on with Willie now included.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7210/27131867696_f91167bb5f_o.jpg)
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(https://aughnahoorylol343b.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/29910813773_11318a9a8d_o.jpg)
Andrew Annett kindly sent me some items including a photo of Willie himelf in WW1 uniform plus a copy of the letter handwritten by King George V himself to willie after he was liberated from the POW camp. It reads:
BUCKINGHAM PALACE
1918
The Queen joins me in welcoming
you on your release from the
miseries and hardships which you have
endured with so much patience &
courage.
During these many months of trial
the early rescue of our gallant officers
& men from the cruelties of their captivity
has been uppermost in our thoughts.
We are thankful that this longed
for day has arrived & that back in
the old country you will be able
once more to enjoy the happiness of
a home & to see good days among
those who anxiously look for your
return
George R. I.
My updated entry on Willie below:
https://aughnahoorylol343b.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/private-willie-graham/ (https://aughnahoorylol343b.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/private-willie-graham/)
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Thank you for the photo, that's fantastic
In the meantime, we have found Willie's birth record, for 23 July 1891 as attached.
Can you possibly give me contact details for Andrew Annett (perhaps by private message). I'd like to find out how he is connected to the family.
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A couple more minor corrections
(1) the original handwritten 1911 census record shows Willie's age correctly as 18, but the 1 was hard to see, and the age was transcribed as 8. So this error is a modern one.
(2) the German POW record is also indistinct, but I read the date of birth as 22/7/92, incorrect by only a month and a day.
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Thanks for the birth certificate that clinches the age mistakes. Here's a full version of the photo which Andrew sent to me. It includes two comrades serving with him Jim Fleming and Robert Newell. The latter like Willie was also a member of Aughnagoory Heroes LOL 343B.
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5692/30558503270_bf3dcfdc89_o.jpg)
Andrew also included a hand written record of Willies exploits written by him on the rear of his letter from the King dated to the 60s. It mentions his travels in Russia New Zealand and other places plus the fact he was held prisoner on a German farm - He certainly had a sense of adventure. I will email him and OK my letting you have his contact details.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5457/30771664441_41a1b6af7b_o.jpg)
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Thanks!
Can you please let Andrew know that if he is connected to the Grahams, we have dozens of cousins waiting to meet him
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I PMd you my EMail. If you let me have your email contact I will foward it to Andrew for you
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Hello All, my name is Andrew Annett and I do have a direct connection to the Graham family who had the shoeshop in Greencastle street Kilkeel. My mother is Evelyn Elisabeth Annett (nee Graham) who is the daughter of Thomas Graham my grandfather(who was the last shoemaker to run the business). I grew up in Kilkeel and knew my grandfather well. I do have quite a bit of family history which I will happily share. kindest regards Andrew