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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cornwall => Topic started by: Goldberry on Monday 25 February 13 10:57 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I wondered if anybody else is researching the Bice family.
I've noticed there are a lot of family trees online (many of which are muddled, which is why I like to do the research myself, rather than copy what other people have done), but when it gets to John Bice nobody currently appears to have a marriage, although his wife is known to be Joan (baptism of daughter Christian 1620 shows mother as Jone).
Obviously, new transcriptions of records are constantly being added, so I was quite excited to find a marriage as follows:
29 Jun 1612, Braddock, Cornwall
John Bise and Joane Crews
The timing of this marriage also coincides well with the birth of John's first son Luke (1613).
I wondered if anybody else had come across this marriage?
As a separate question, but linked to the above -
Taking the research one step further regarding Joan Crews:
I understand that Braddock is about 7 miles from Liskeard, where there was to be found a branch of the Cruwys family from Devon (various other spellings, including Crewse). John Bice was a Yeoman, so it makes sense that he would marry into such a family.
There is a baptism:
Jone Cruise
baptised 24 Nov 1594
Fowey, Cornwall
Father Richard Cruise
In the Family Search Ancestral files I found information about the Crewse family of Liskeard, showing the birth of Richard c 1567, his father John 1530, and grandfather Anthony b 1505, Cruwys Morchard,Devon d 1540. (To date my tree is based on documents I've found for baptisms, marriages, burials, censuses, etc. Can anybody tell me how reliable these Ancestral Files are? Checking against Pedigree Files on Family Search in the past, I've found some of them to be wrong. Can anybody explain the difference between Ancestral Files and Pedigree Files, if any?)
In the meantime, I can't find any other children with this baptised with this surname (I've searched trying various spellings) in Fowey around the date of Joane Cruise, so at the moment I'm unable to make any connection to Richard from Liskeard.
Any thoughts, suggestions?
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I've also found a marriage:
28 Nov 1600, Braddock
William Crews
Joan Hicks
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The Cornwall OPC site has that marriage
29 Jun 1612, Braddock, Cornwall
John Bise and Joane Crews
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=marriages&id=959899
as John Wise + Joane Crews
You might want to look at the actual record to see whether Wise is a misreading, as seems possible. You can contact the OPC here:
http://www.cornwall-opc.org/Par_new/a_d/bradock.php
Is Samuel Sandoe Bice in your Bice line perchance? He and my grx2 grfather seem to have been in business together in the 1850s, before he departed for Australia and his son became a well-known politician and a Sir. ;)
I think FS's ancestral files are just the same thing as the old pedigree files -- unverified info submitted by individuals. They're as good as the documentation the submitters have to substantiate them!
I'm not sure how someone would have a baptism date c1505, since my understanding is parish records do not exist that early - ? - unless maybe there was an age on a burial record? I would imagine someone is just guesstimating based on the date of a marriage / child's baptism (although those would still be too early, I think); such guesstimates are often wildly off. (I recently figured out that my ancestor in a 1782 marriage where I was stuck was actually about 50 at the time of marriage, e.g., when I found the baptism under a variant surname.)
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OPC site has a baptism of Johan Crewes Oct 1593, daughter of John, in Gerrans -- not next door to Fowey, but not a million miles away.
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=3081470
Same place and same father, there are also John 1594, Richard 1595 and Nicholas 1599.
And in 1591, Richard son of Richard Crewes.
Johan 1593 and John 1594 were baptised within about 4 months of each other so perhaps she was not baptised at birth.
The baptism you show:
Jone Cruise
baptised 24 Nov 1594
Fowey, Cornwall
Father Richard Cruise
isn't in the OPC database, but you'd have to check the coverage to see whether trancription is complete for that date/location.
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Thanks Janey.
I made contact with Cornwall OPC a few days ago about the marriage record. As Cornwall Family History Society have transcribed the marriage as Bice, COPC are going to put a note against their record that the name could be Bise.
I bought a copy of John Bice's (Byse) will today from the National Archives, and I'm thrilled that all of the family that I have for John match the names in his will, including his wife Joan. There's also some additional information regarding his sons-in-law and grandchildren, which I intend to follow up.
I will have to do some research to see if I can fin any Wills for the Cruwys/Crewse family.
As this isn't a common surname, I guess there's a possibility that the William Crews, who's marriage I found, could be the brother of Joan/Johan.
I thought as much about the Ancestral files, because the information seems to differ.
By the way, there appears to be a lot of research into the name Cruwys eg:
http://www.one-name.org/profiles/cruwys.html
http://cruwys.blogspot.gr/
...so I'm hoping to find somebody else that can cross-reference.
Thanks for your advice.
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Regarding the Anthony Crewes name -- a person search at the OPC site for the name ant cre finds
- a baptism 1600 in Gerrans for an Anthony Crewes son of Gilbert
- numerous baptisms 1623 to 1648 in Gerrans for children with father Anthony Crews/Crewes sometimes naming mother Jane.
If Anthony was a family name, that could indicate a connection with the ones in Gerrans, again, just something to consider.
No Samuel Sandoe Bice connection then? ;) (other than in the dim distant 1500s ...)
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The reason I considered the possibility that the Joane who married John Bice was related to the Liskeard branch of the family is because I understand Braddock to be only about 7 miles away.
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I found this website about the Cruwys family: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/cruwysdna/default.aspx?section=results
It's interesting that both Liskeard and Gerrans are mentioned.
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Hi
I've done some more research today and found that the three sons of John c 1530 of Liskeard - Richard, Gilbert and John - moved to Gerrans.
Richard married Olive Humfry 1589
Gilbert married her sister Jane Humfry 1591
John married Mary Frawan (alias Nanslo) 1592
Richard died in 1590 and Olive (widow) in 1591. Olive was buried 14 August and their son Richard who was baptised on 11, was buried 21 August 1591, just a week after his mother.
So this seems to rule out this Richard from being the father of Johan Cruse of Fowey.
I've found a Richard Crewse who had three children in Morwenstow - Alexander 1596, Richard 1599 and Marye 1601 - could this be the father of Johan 1594 in Fowey?
This still leaves Johan 1593, daughter of John Crewes in Gerrans, or Johan 1581 daughter of Paskow Crewe of St Just in Roseland.
I can't find a link as to why there would be a marriage in Braddock - could there be a connection with Liskeard?
As mentioned above, a William Crews married in Braddock in 1600, but I can't find any other mention of a William. I was hoping that if I found him that might give some clues.
Nor have I been able to find anything else about Paskow Crewe, although I found the name Carrow/Cerrow in St Just in Roseland.
Thanks for your input - two heads are always better than one! :)
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I don't think you said for this --
There is a baptism:
Jone Cruise
baptised 24 Nov 1594
Fowey, Cornwall
Father Richard Cruise
Where is there this baptism?
I just find the existence of baptisms for two same-named people -- this one and the one in Gerrans in 1593 -- a tad coincidental.
The OPC site doesn't have Fowey baptisms for that era (whether because they're not transcribed or because they haven't survived, or there was no parish church there at the time, I don't know but the Fowey OPC could tell you).
For the various records you're finding as you go along, it would help if you would give the sources and links if you can, just so the reader can assess their probative value. ;)
(I do see the three Crewes marriages in Gerrans that you mention, at the OPC site -- connected as I suspected!)
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Hi Janey
I have now found 4 baptisms. The first two on the Family Search website (https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3Ajoan~%20%2Bsurname%3Acrews~%20%2Bbirth_place%3Acornwall%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1580-1600~)
and COPC (http://cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/baptisms/index.php?year_from=1580&year_to=1600&parish=&forename1=forename&surname1=crewse&forename2=forename&forename3=forename&t=baptisms&soundex=1&bf=Search):
Johan Crewes
16 Oct 1593
Saint Gerrans
Parents: John Crewes
Johan Crewe
14 Sep 1581
St Just in Roseland
Parents: Pascow Crewe
(Shown on COPC as Johan Cruse?)
This one on COPC:
Johan Crewse
28 Mar 1585
St Just in Roseland
Father's forename: Paskow
The fourth one is from the Find My Past website - data provider Cornwall Family History Society:
Jone Cruise
24 Nov 1594
Fowey
Father: Richard Cruise
The reason I wondered about a connection the Morwenstowe "Richard Crewes" is because his son Alexander goes on to spell their family name "Cruse" - so similar to the Fowey baptism - baptisms are on COPC. This is obviously a different Richard from the Gerrans family because that one died in 1590, but I haven't been able to work out who he was - or were there two, one in Fowey and one in Morwenstowe?? :-\
Richard "Crewse" - Morwenstowe - children all COPC:
8 Aug 1596 Alexander
31 Jul 1599 Richard
11 Nov 1601 Marye
I haven't been able to find another marriage for a Richard Crewse, as that might have helped to solve the puzzle.
Alexander "Cruse" m Honor Warmington 27 Apr 1625 Kilkhampton - I have found 6 children COPC.
It's all very confusing! ??? I wish it was as easy as her being the daughter of John of Gerrans because his family history is well-documented. I can't find anything else about Paskow Crewe (other than a burial in 1572 of a Paskow Crewe COPC which obviously isn't the same person), or about another Richard Crewse.
Plus there is also the William Crews marriage in Braddock (same place as John Bice m Joan Crews) to take into account (http://cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=marriages&id=959877), but I can't find anything about William either. :-\
William Crews m Joan Hicks 23 Nov 1600 Braddock
Thanks again for taking the time to look at the query. I really appreciate your input. :)
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Well, the BICE FAMILY is very interesting.
I have only gone back as far as Luke Bice 1790 and Grace Webb
Then their son Francis Bice 1808 married to Eliza Barwis , then their son Francis John 1832 then my great grandfather Luke Bice b. 1863 in Victoria Australia married to Sarah Ann Allen.
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Add Elizabeth Bice b oct 1829 in Cornwall to Joseph Bice b c1793 and Frances Ann Tyzzar m 1823
Elizabeth married William Jacka in Perranzabuloe 1850 and emigrated to Australia aboard the Fatima 1850 and had 7 children
Yet no connection found with Samuel Sandoe Bice