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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: KarenM on Sunday 05 June 05 22:40 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
Here are a couple more watercolours that I have and was hoping to see if anyone knew what area these may be from.
Thanks so much for everyone's help.
Karen
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I wonder if it isn't Liverpool Castle.....
I've been looking for a picture of it - I know I've seen one somewhere - this is the only one I can find right now and it's not very good
http://www.mersey-gateway.org/server.php?show=conMediaFile.15738
I'll keep looking for a better one...
Annie
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Thanks for looking Annie
Is there water around Liverpool Castle? Or a bridge?
Karen
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It's driving me crazy I can't remember where I saw that picture of the castle but I wonder if these people could help you ???
http://www.liverpoolpictures.co.uk/html/art/art_01.shtml
I hope so!!
Annie
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Hi,
I found a couple of pictures of old Liverpool Castle by Googling and it looks as though it wasn't right on the water like the building in the watercolour. My first thought on seeing the painting was old London Bridge but the pictures I've found don't look like what we're looking for either.
Allan
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The smaller picture does not look to me as if it is in the UK. I think it is in a warmer climate somewhere.
Would it be possible for you to enlarge the picture to give a better view of the type of boat?
Jill
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JillJ
I agree with you re the smaller picture..........looks Italian ?
Ysabeau
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I'll try and make it bigger (not that computer savy) and re-post it. I'm attaching another one that seems to be in the same sort of colours, if that helps or hinders?
Karen
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The first photo reminds me (a little) of Gailey round house:
You will have to try to imagine it without the modern brick road bridge that hides the arched stone bridge behind it.
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Yes, I can picture that. I googled Gailey round house and saw some other pictures and with the canals going through and the little boats, perhaps it's in the Staffordshire area?
Perhaps he painted on his way. He was from Surrey and then went to Kent, then I have him in Gloucester, then Wales, then Ireland. Could Staffordshire be on the way?
Karen
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It's interesting that you say he went to Ireland Karen - I thought the last picture (cottage and girl) looked a bit Irish!
The girl is wearing a short skirt - have you any idea of dates for these pictures?
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The girl is wearing a short skirt - have you any idea of dates for these pictures?
I think you'll find the skirt is down to her ankles
Ysabeau
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Hmmm.....
The first picture on the thread (the one on the left) may well be Liverpool castle.
The pics that Alcrighton posted do look similar,in particular the building with the pointy spire away to the left as it would seem that the first pic also shows such a spire and in about the right place if you consider the perspective of the painting. :)
Just a thought,Mick ;)
Liverpool was also one of the major ports for shipping to Ireland,so quite possible.
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Yes, I see the spire. The first picture also seems to have a very big building in the background which perhaps would only be found in big cities? Does Liverpool have canals?
We have no idea when these pictures were painted, or by who really. My grandmother and her siblings were told they were painted by their father. He came to Canada in 1910 so they would have been painted prior to that. He never painted any pictures in Canada which seems odd to me, he died in 1921.
Would watercolour painting be an expensive hobby? Could he really have afforded it? He was a butler who parents were tenant farmers.
Thanks everyone for all your input.
Karen
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Hi Karen,
When I was looking for the pictures of Liverpool Castle I found a date when it was knocked down - late 18th century I think (can't find the reference again!). So unless your grandfather copied his watercolour from an earlier work I don't think it's Liverpool castle.
Regards,
Allan
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Hi Allan,
I noticed that it had been torn down as well in the 18th century. In my post regarding "Finding a Location of an Abbey" it was suggested that perhaps the painting of Tintern Abbey was copied from a painting. So, here that question has come up again, were these paintings in the home that he worked for and he just painted them from the paintings? Did he even do them? His children were too young when he died for them to ask any questions. Perhaps their mother just said "they were your fathers" and over the years it has just been assumed he did them?
Karen
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Hi Karen,
If he didn't paint them,perhaps they were given to him by an appreciative employer.
The subjects all look too early to have been painted (in the original) by your ggrandfather,as you say,he might have copied them, if he did,where are the originals I wonder?
If this had been the June challenge,you would probably know who painted it,where,when and the type of paint and canvas he used ;D ,as it is,I'm stumped, but will keep a look out for any 'likely's' :)
I'm sticking with the Liverpool Castle idea for the first pic though,
Cheers,Mick ;)
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Here is what I have confirmed:
1901 Census - Thomas R. Shorter is a butler for Mowbray Trotter at St. Mary's East Farleigh, Kent. Mowbray Trotter then becomes Canon at Gloucester Cathedral in 1904 (not sure if Thomas followed).
1907 - Birth certificate of his first son, Thomas's residence listed as Lisselan Estate, Clonakilty, Co. Cork, Ireland and occupation is a butler
In 1907 Lisselan Estate is owned by the by Bence-Jones Family.
For many years Thomas R. Shorter (my gr-grandfather) family farmed for Rev. William Tringham in Chertsey/Longcross. I have a pewter cup given to John and MaryAnn Shorter on the occasion of their 50th wedding anniversary dated 1903.
Another thing is that Donald Maxwell, who was a watercolour artist lived in East Farleigh, Kent and had been to Lisselan Estate, but not sure if that is just coincidence.
Any ideas??
Karen
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Have you considered taking them to an Art Gallery for their opinion
Ysabeau
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I have found a different picture of Liverpool Castle that may be worth a second look.
It was found at this address: http://joannayates04lcc.tripod.com/liverpool/liverpool_done/
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SS
That's a good picture, seems that there is a moat around it and bridge to get in the castle.
Ysabeau
I actually thought about that today. I started by calling the local art gallery here, and then they told me who to call and so on and so on..Apparently I need to find myself an "Art Historian". Perhaps they would be able to date the paper, if the paper was used say in the 1850's, then it would not of been painted by my gr-grandfather, but if they say 1900's then, perhaps they were painted by him. Or maybe I have just watched to many CSI (Crime Scene Investigation) shows! LOL
Not to add to the confusion, but here are two more.
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KarenM
Maybe your local library or Historical Society knows of a
reputable Art Historian - just be careful !!!
Ysabeau
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Liverpool Castle still exists, at least in spirit. Lord Leverhulme (he of the soap empire) built a scale replica of the ruins on his estate on the banks of one of the reservoirs at Rivington.
http://www.bolton.org.uk/rivington.html
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Hi Ysabeau,
I was trying to find something like the "Antiques Roadshow" here in Canada. And we do have one, but they are done for the year. Anyways, I found another thing similiar and inquired if they would be in my area and the fellow emailed me back and said no, but that he lives in the same town as me and I could perhaps show him privately. I checked his name out and seems to be one of the best and is from England. What are the chances of that. Not sure if it's going to cost me an arm and a leg, but we will see. Will keep you posted.
Karen
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Karen
Please do.............I think the "pictures" are gorgeous !!!!
Ysabeau
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Yes, let us know how you get on Karen. The pictures are lovely and it would be great for you to have a professional opinion on them, so good luck!
Jill
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I have a feeling these are from Normandy or Brittany - the area roughly around St. Malo or Treport. They resemble works by Clarkson Stansfield done about 1835 to 1850. The warecolours you have shown us are of quite high technical expertise. It is hard to understand why they are not signed or described as to place 8)
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Hi everyone,
I'm so excited, tommorrow morning I am off to see the "Art Historian" to show him one of the watercolour paintings. Turns out he has even been on the BBC Antiques Roadshow.
Will let you know how I make out, good or bad!
Karen
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Wow,Karen,
That is exciting! good luck and do keep us posted.
Mick ;)
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Well the mystery is somewhat solved. Seems the painting that I brought to him is dated between 1835 & 1850. So, no chance my gr-grandfather did them as he was born in 1876. It is from a sketch book and that explains why there are no signatures or dates on them. I guess the artists would go to a spot and do a "rough" drawing of the scene and then take it back to their studio as a reference for a larger picture. It wasn't the worst he seen, but obviously not the best, somewhere in the middle. Nothing stood out to him that would say for eg. "That is a Turner painting". Perhaps like someonr else had said they were from an appreciative employer upon his leave to come to Canada. I was quite pleased with the outcome. He also said that they were not all one artist. The people in the pictures are viewed from the back, because who ever did them at that time was not talented enough to paint faces. Everything he said made perfect sense to me.
Thanks everyone for all your input!
Karen
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Hi
Did he give any opinion on locations ?
Ysabeau
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I wanted to know too - if it really was Liverpool Castle - that was my choice!!
Annie
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I showed him the one that we thought might be Liverpool Castle and I also mentioned that perhaps it was the Round House, but he didn't say yes, and he really didn't say no. He just went on to say how it was a different artist altogether that had done that one. My Aunt has sent me a few more copies of some other paintings, I can't remember what they look like. Even though he didn't do them, I think (being here on the other side of the pond) it's nice to know what they are of.
Karen