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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: fiftywinds on Saturday 16 March 13 15:18 GMT (UK)
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Hi F :)
I have moved over your post to the Lanarkshire board where I am sure you will get more help with the local searches :) This is the link to the original post on the Banffshire post regarding Tomintoul www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,434380.0.html
hi
i am trying to find out more about the experience of the young people from glasgow who were "boarded out" in the Tomintoul and Tomnavoulin areas between 1898 and 1908. i would be particularly interested in finding out about the school in tombae at this period. are there any books on the area at this time or useful sources?
thanks
Hi,
I have just come across your post. I have recently found out that I have relatives, William and Catherine Kelly, who were boarded out to a Donald Cumming in Tomintoul on 9/4/1901. The information does come from excellent Poor Relief records held at the Mitchel Library. They were in a Poorhouse in Glasgow for around 2 years before being sent to Tomintoul.
I am unable to find the family in the 1901 or 1911 census. I have found a Donald Cumming who has taken in boarders but not my William or Catherine. Do you have any more information on what happened to the poor wee mites that were sent away from the awful conditions in Glasgow? You mentioned school records?
Many thanks,
F
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Hi F
Welcome to RootsChat :)
We can try to help you find William and Catherine at least in 1901 hopefully. When and where were they born. From your notes, were parents' still alive when they were sent away?
The children may have been already in care (as boarders in another household for example) in the Glasgow area before being sent away.
There is this entry for example from 1901:
Kate Kelly, inmate, 8 b. Glasgow. This entry shows at 21 Whitevale Street, Glasgow Camlachie. I am guessing this is likely to be the Catholic Children's Refuge at Whitevale Street.
Monica :)
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Hi Monica,
Many thanks for your reply. William born(9/3/1891) and Catherine(29/11/1892) were admitted to a workhouse in Glasgow around 12/3/1895. Their mother, Mary McConville, Mullen Kelly died on 9/3/1895 and their father William Kelly had deserted the family after spending time in prison in Glasgow for assaulting his wife. Their last known address was 155 Blackburn St, Glasgow. Their father did see the children once or twice then disappeared from their life. According to the Poor Relief Records held in the Mitchell Library in Glasgow, on 9/4/1901 it was decided to board them out to a Donald Cumming, Victoria Cottage, Tomintoul. It is difficult to decipher the records but these seem to be the correct details.
Their mother Mary was previously married to a James Mullen who died in 1885 and had 3 children, John, Sarah and my great grandmother Mary. (We knew nothing of her early life until last week and had no idea she had half brothers or sisters.
Many thanks for any information you could provide.
F
Any help would be appreciated.
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As you can see, I have jiggling around with these posts so that you are in the best place for the specific Glasgow based queries. Hoping everything has linked properly and also left a link to here, with a copy of your original post, on the Banffshire post.
Regarding your last comments and the dates of birth for William (March 1891) and Catherine (Nov. 1892), the 1901 entry I posted for Catherine (Kate) could well fit for her?:
Kate Kelly, inmate, 8 b. Glasgow. This entry shows at 21 Whitevale Street, Glasgow Camlachie. I am guessing this is likely to be the Catholic Children's Refuge at Whitevale Street.
Were the family Roman Catholic?
Monica
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If the agreement to move William and Catherine under Donald Cummings care was confirmed on 9 April 1901, likely they were still in Glasgow for the 1901 census you would think (date for this 31 March 1901).
There are a couple of possibilities for young William in 1901:
Helen Kelly 58 charwoman b. Glasgow
Margt Mains 28
Janet Lamb 21
Joseph Lamb 24
Robert Mains 8
William Kelly 9 grandson b. Glasgow
Address: 6 Stirling St, Glasgow Blackfriars
Do you have the marriage entry for Mary McConville to William Kelly to confirm his parents' details?
Also,
James Robertson 31
Mary Robertson 29
Annie Robertson 1
John Robertson 75
William Mccarrol 25
William Kelly 10 boarder b. Glasgow
Neil Mcmillan 6 boarder b. Glasgow
James Boyle 34
Address: 4 Moray Place, Rutherglen Lanarkshire
Monica
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Was husband William Kelly already AWOL and tricky by 1891 :-\
Mary Mullen 30, wife b. Ireland
John Mullen 12
Sarah Mullen 10
Mary Mullen 6
William Kelly 1 month
Address: 155 Blackburn St, Govan
Marriage for William Kelly and Mary in 1888?
Monica
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i would be particularly interested in finding out about the school in tombae at this period. are there any books on the area at this time or useful sources?
There is a book 'Banffshire Schools and Schoolmasters' which might be what you are looking for.
Another thing that has struck me is that the church at Tombae is Roman Catholic, so any school nearby may also have been Roman Catholic.
I have just recently read Lewis Man by Peter May. One thread of the storyline is about Roman Catholic orphans taken from their home city and packed off to live with families on the Isle of Eriskay. Could it be that Roman Catholic children in particular were sent from Glasgow to the Glenlivet area, which was a stronghold of Roman Catholicism throughout the 18th and 19th centuries?
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Hi Monica,
Thankyou for your very quick reply and apologies for my slow one.
Was husband William Kelly already AWOL and tricky by 1891 :-\
Mary Mullen 30, wife b. Ireland
John Mullen 12
Sarah Mullen 10
Mary Mullen 6
William Kelly 1 month
Address: 155 Blackburn St, Govan
Marriage for William Kelly and Mary in 1888?
Monica
This is my great grandmother, Mary (Mcconville) Mullen/Kelly. She had another child, Catherine on 29/11/92 to William Kelly. Mary and William married in Bellshill on 1/4/88. They moved to Blackburn St, Govan, Plantation. The 1st application for poor relief on 22/9/1891 was because William Kelly assaulted his wife and was sent to prison The family were admitted to the poorhouse. The second application was on 7/12/1893 when the family, now with the addition of little Catherine, were destitute because William Kelly had deserted them in July of 93 and was living with a Mrs Brown of 22 Perth St with whom he had a child. On the 12/3/95 Mary Mullen Kelly died of consumption at 87 McLean Street according to her death certificate, witnessed by her eldest son John. William Kelly seems to have asked for Catherine but could not take care of her.
This is as far as I have got.
I am still looking for John(born in Lurgan, Ireland, 1/11/1879) and Sarah (born in Bellshill, 3/10/85) Mullen as well.
There is this entry for example from 1901:
Kate Kelly, inmate, 8 b. Glasgow. This entry shows at 21 Whitevale Street, Glasgow Camlachie. I am guessing this is likely to be the Catholic Children's Refuge at Whitevale Street.
Monica :)
This look correct too. I couldn't read the handwriting on the Poorhouse Record but it was Whitevale and she was Catholic.
If the agreement to move William and Catherine under Donald Cummings care was confirmed on 9 April 1901, likely they were still in Glasgow for the 1901 census you would think (date for this 31 March 1901).
There are a couple of possibilities for young William in 1901:
Helen Kelly 58 charwoman b. Glasgow
Margt Mains 28
Janet Lamb 21
Joseph Lamb 24
Robert Mains 8
William Kelly 9 grandson b. Glasgow
Address: 6 Stirling St, Glasgow Blackfriars
Do you have the marriage entry for Mary McConville to William Kelly to confirm his parents' details?
Monica
I don't think this is correct as William's gandmother was called Mary Kelly and then after a second marraige, Mary Wylie who was married to a Hugh Wylie of 119 Henderson St at the time William's mother, Mary, died.
James Robertson 31
Mary Robertson 29
Annie Robertson 1
John Robertson 75
William Mccarrol 25
William Kelly 10 boarder b. Glasgow
Neil Mcmillan 6 boarder b. Glasgow
James Boyle 34
Address: 4 Moray Place, Rutherglen Lanarkshire
Monica
This could be correct as his grandmother's maiden name was McMillan.
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Don't worry about the slow one...it is all there for when you are ready ;)
That all seems to connect doesn't it. I am more comfortable about the entry for Catherine (Kate) in 1901.
To find them going forward, Catherine and John, you will need a lot of SP units given the surname :'( or, are you close to one of the main genealogy centres in Scotland to be able to view entries in general on SP?
Monica
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I am still looking for John(born in Lurgan, Ireland, 1/11/1879) and Sarah (born in Bellshill, 3/10/85) Mullen as well.
Mmmm...I wonder. Could Sarah Mullen also have been sent off to Banff as a boarder? Have you found anything that might help on the poor relief notes?
There is this entry for example in 1901:
Alexander Reach 45 Butcher
Kate Reach 37
Jessie Ellis 8 stepdaughter
Kate Riach 1
Sarah Mullen 15 boarder b. Glasgow
James Boyle 23 boarder b. Glasgow
Address: 34 Main St Tomintoul Banff
John Mullen much older for 1901, likely independent by then. There are up to at least 5 entries in 1901 for a John Mullen b. Ireland in his age group, showing as boarding.
Monica
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"The old school at Tombae, known as St Mary's, was built in 1829, about the same time as the adjoining beautiful Roman Catholic church. The teacher for long was Miss Smith, now of Craighead. She cemae head teacher about half a century ago and remained until Miss Gordon took charge in 1879. She retired in 1922 .... [after] her work as head teacher and choir mistress for the long period of 43 years .... In 1903 a new school was built, very much larger, the old school having only one room. Miss Gordon then had an assistant teacher as the numbers of the roll increased considerably, and they have steadily increased since. Miss Angler, who has succeeded her as headmistress, has maintained in an admirable way all the fine traditions of the school." [From William Barclay, The Schools and Schoolmasters of Banffshire, 1925] The bits I have omitted are mostly what was said to and by Miss Gordon at her retirement presentation.
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I am still looking for John(born in Lurgan, Ireland, 1/11/1879) and Sarah (born in Bellshill, 3/10/85) Mullen as well.
Mmmm...I wonder. Could Sarah Mullen also have been sent off to Banff as a boarder? Have you found anything that might help on the poor relief notes?
There is this entry for example in 1901:
Alexander Reach 45 Butcher
Kate Reach 37
Jessie Ellis 8 stepdaughter
Kate Riach 1
Sarah Mullen 15 boarder b. Glasgow
James Boyle 23 boarder b. Glasgow
Address: 34 Main St Tomintoul Banff
John Mullen much older for 1901, likely independent by then. There are up to at least 5 entries in 1901 for a John Mullen b. Ireland in his age group, showing as boarding.
Monica
Hi Monica,
I will spend a bit of time in the Mitchell Library and on SP to see if we can find anything else. You are so correct when you say there are a lot of Mullins.
Many thanks for your help so far. It has been very, very useful,
Frances
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hi sorry about the delay in the haven't been doing much research since that last post i sent. the reason most of the Glasgow children were sent there was because the church wanted to maintain the young people's catholic identity and this area was one of the few areas that still had a distinctive catholic community post reformation. the added bonus for the poor relief was that it was away from the 'corrupting' influence of the slums and the rural lifestyle was seen as a way of developing them into young people with good character. i found out about all this stuff by looking at the parish poor records in the Mitchell archive too. inspectors from the parish poor board were sent up at regular intervals to check on the young people in the care of the families (unfortunately i can't remember the name given to these reports in the Mitchell) but i remember seeing my grampa and other young people's names mentioned (my grampa kept running away and 'needed taking in hand'). it would be interesting to read local newspapers from the area at the time to see what local people thought of this influx of young orphans what relationships were like between them and the local children as at any time there must have been a noticeable number of these young people boarded out from Glasgow and other Scottish towns. hope this posts in at the right bit of the conversation as i am not very good at these forum things
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Ally, thank you :) That is a really good description of what the reasons were for the exodus from Glasgow to Tomintoul! I have wondered what the precise thinking was, although guessing at the overall motivation.
Monica
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if you find out anymore info on the area between 1898 and 1908 and the boarders i would be interested to hear. i often wonder if the boarders were viewed as a source of income as the parish poor relief would have paid the famliies who took in the boardersis brother in kilts and the young people would have supplied labour on the farms. though i suppose the experience of the young people would be similar to perhaps evacuees during the second world war in that some would have had positive experiences and some unfortunately not. my grampa died when my dad was a boy but i have heard that him and his brother would often go hillwaking and i have a picture of him and his brother in kilts, perhaps this was a a result of their experience of the culture in tomintoul at the time.
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i often wonder if the boarders were viewed as a source of income as the parish poor relief would have paid the famliies who took in the boardersis brother in kilts and the young people would have supplied labour on the farms.
Hi Ally,
I was wondering this too. In my great grandmother's case, and when I think of all the terrible things that she went through(losing her father, drunken stepfather, poorhouse, finally losing her mother at a young age) she was boarded(fostered?) and eventually adopted into the Kearney family in Rutherglen and she was wanted and loved by them. They also adopted another little girl, Kate McCleary that became her 'sister'. She refused to marry unless she could bring her adopted father with her. She never discussed this with anyone until the end of her life when she asked my dad to help find her siblings. Impossible them but luckily we have more tools at our disposal now. I would love to know if you find any more information.
F
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Hi Frances ive just come across your chat while searching my Papa`s address he was born at 155 Blackburn St Govan . My Papa was William Kelly and his sister was Catherine .
Their parents etc names are all correct re your information to Monica.
A few years ago i searched for Williams birth certificate i found lots of new info on his family.
This week my sister finally solved the missing piece of the puzzle (birth certificate for Papa ) as we believed he had been adopted .
I would be interested in hearing from you
Sheila
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Just a snippet of info about how the boarded out kids may have been treated. A year or so ago I met and chatted with an old man in Tomintoul who had been boarded out from Glasgow as a child. He had been sent to a farm a few miles out of Tomintoul. He had said that he was treated extremely well and welcomed as part of the family. It was nice to hear. I have a property just south of Tomintoul and the families of this house (and it's near neighbour) both boarded children from Glasgow. Very often they were siblings, but I haven't yet managed to trace what happened to them - did they stay and integrate, or did they move back to Glasgow?
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Sorry, me again. There were very many children brought to Tomintoul and surrounding farms. Have just found a census report from 1891 and from just 3 houses on the main street of Tomintoul there were 10 boarding children - one from Selkirk, the others from Glasgow. All 3 neighbouring houses had boarded children, including several siblings. 6 in one house, 3 in another, and one in the last. Staggering. You wonder how the schools coped (- they all list them as scholars.)
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You wonder how the kids coped more like. A lot of Glasgow kids who were sent to the Heilans by the Corporation were more or less used as slave labour on farms. Six kids in one household probably indicates that they were being farmed themselves.
Skoosh.
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Hi Everyone,
Been a while. I was in the Mitchell Library last week and was looking up the records of the children boarded out in Tomintoul. The records are absolutely brilliant. Found my Kellys. The children were generally well treated and there is a note in one of the records saying that after the death of a wife, the husband was bereft and it was one of his boarded out children who came back and helped him through the difficult times. There was evidence of "real affection". The other note of interest was how "the rarified air of Tomintoul seems to combat successfully with their(the children) scrofulous nature." Lovely way to put it.
Franx