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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Berwickshire => Topic started by: excel on Saturday 16 March 13 19:38 GMT (UK)
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My great grandparents lived in Dunse and I have recently been given an old album of photos taken in Dunse by photographers, D Davidson of Castle Street, Dunse and George Bruce, Mansefield, Dunse. The photo of the house was taken by D Davidson. Unfortunately the other two have nothing on the back. They look as though they were of a school. Can anyone identify the house or the school building?
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I don't recognise these buildings but I could do a bit of asking around for you. I have quite a few photos of my family by Davidson too
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Thank you very much for the reply.
The design of the house seems quite different for the area. The female side of the family lived in Edrom, Duns and Chirnside although I think there is a house at the bottom of the hill in Allanton that is a bit different as well.
I just received about 30 photos, most of which were taken by Davidson. It is very frustrating that there are no names on any but two. However they were definitely from my Dad's side so that helps a little!
If you know of anyone who might be help please feel free to show the photos to them.
Rae
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I've sent the photos to a few people from the Duns area so let's see what comes back
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Hi excel,
My wife's grandparents lived in Dunse and she spent some time there, but doesn't recognise the house and where the children are does't ring a bell either.
Have you tried the Borders F.H.S.?
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Hi Beckey,
Thanks, I haven't tried Borders FHS yet as thought I would give it a few more days on this forum. I am going to Hawick during the week and hope to pop into the Hub to see if they have anything there.
Rae
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For the latter two photos with the posed groups would the Wellnage be a candidate? Looks like it was possibly taken in front of a reasonably large house and probably not facing a road. Unfortunately Scotland's places only has the one photo:
http://www.scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/search_item/index.php?service=RCAHMS&id=95371
I'd guess the photos were 1860s-1870s from the outfits.
S_L
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If you check out my photos in the link below you will see more photos from Davidsons
https://picasaweb.google.com/116963551176633460079/Bogend
I'm still racking my brains as to where the large houses are in your photos
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S_L,
thank you very much for the reply. I think you have cracked it. Now to find out if it was a school at one time. I am hoping to go to the Heritage Hub at Hawick tomorrow so will see if they have anything they can add.
What a pity that is the only photograph but the stone and windows are similar. I have now found this description on Historic Scotland website from their listed building report:
Quote: ..... entrance on S return with polished ashlar Tuscan Doric pilastered doorpiece at ground; 2-leaf panelled doors in round-headed doorway with corresponding plate glass fanlight;"
This seems to be the description of the doorway in the photo. Although it isn't too clear I think they are definitely ashlar Tuscan doric pilasters each side of the door.
Thank you. Will keep you posted if I find anything.
Rae
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Colin,
Thank you very much for that link. What a great place to keep photos safely. I suppose you don't have the dates either for the old ones?
See my last reply. I think S_L has found the 'school' building. Will see what else I can find out.
Rae
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The description sounds promising, keeping my fingers crossed!
S_L
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Just as background for the property being discussed, Wellnage on Station Road, Duns, in 1901. I think this is the entry:
Margaret Wilson 73 Living On Own Means b. Edinburgh
Mary T Wilson 34 daughter b. Chirnside, Berwickshire
Elizabeth C Wilson 32 daughter b. Chirnside, Berwickshire
Margaret W Miller 11 grandchild b. Bridge Of Allan, Stirlingshire
Catherine C Miller 9 grandchild b. Bridge Of Allan, Stirlingshire
Agnes Walker 36 servant
Jane Leithead 37 servant
Address: Station Road Wellnage, Duns
There are also a number of references on SP's Wills & Testaments. Just leave everything blank and insert Wellnage in the description box.
Monica :)
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Ahh...I have an alternative to Wellnage, pretty much the house next door just about going by the map http://canmoremapping.rcahms.gov.uk/index.php?action=do_advanced&idnumlink=230735. Also historic listed building as Wellnage is. This property is called Blythbank (Blyth(e) Bank).
There are clever photo people who can place photos next to each other to do a compare and contract...I can't :P
This is Blythbank. I thought the front was pretty much a perfect match to the photo settings with the children - even counting the french window panes to the side of the front door!
The photo with just the girls shows a lower ground window on the l/h side. As you can see, Blythbank seemed to have these windows either side of the lower area to the entrance door.
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Also seems to show on estate agents windows such as here www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-37036003.html
Monica
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Wouldn't rule it out but those appear to be two pillars next to the door instead of four pilasters. Everything else looks spot on though.
Maybe there's more than one entrance.
S_L
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Did note the two pillars too either side. Thought there might have been changes over the years, but just a guess really.
Monica
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Thank you very much for that, Monica. I had found Blythbank when I was at the Hub, Hawick this morning but not the photograph.
Extract from the buildings of Scotland 'Borders' :
"Blythbank built c1800 peind roofed, 2 storey and basement. e bay ashlar front with a Roman Doric columned surround to the fanlit entrance at the slightly advanced and pedimented centre....."
Certainly the basement is there in the old photograph but there are pilasters rather than columns to each side of the door. Perhaps the columns were added at a later date. Another house in that area called Haymount says that it had a pilastered doorpiece but nothing else matched. It had only 3 steps.
I had a look at the 1841 to 1861 census returns for the houses and didn't find Blythbank. Welnage/Walnage, Haymount no1 and Haymount no2 and Todlaw were next to each other but no Blythbank - unless it was named Todlaw then.
Also, none of the houses seemed to house a school and none had any of my ancestors living in.
What a puzzle!
I am so grateful to all who are trying to work this out for me.
Rae
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I struggled finding Blythbank in very earlier censuses too :-\
I saw mentioned a possible date range for the school photos of 1860-70s?
The Swinton sisters, Catherine C and Mary Campbell Swinton I think both died at Blythebank - www.swintonfamilysociety.org/web%20charts%20Jan%202005/Swint%20Ch.01-3/SWINTON_Ch02B_Sh1.pdf Look to the top of the third column for them.
Their entries also show on SP Wills & Testaments.
This is them in 1871:
Cathrine C Swinton 61, Income Derived From Interest Of Money b. Edinburgh
Mary C Swinton 60 sister, Income Derived From Interest Of Money b. Edinburgh
...and 3 Servants in the household.
Address: Blythebank, Dunse
How confident was everyone about the dating on the photos?
Monica
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Map here just for background from 1857 http://maps.nls.uk/os/6inch/view/?sid=74426544
Both Wellnage and Todlaw show on this, but cannot see Blythbank except it seems to be in the general area where Blythbank seems to be today (I clicked on the map here www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-37036003.html which pinpoints where Blythbank is located today). Might fit with what you are thinking Rae.
Monica
Added: Actually, Todlaw and Blythbank must be separate properties altogether. We had the Swinton sisters living at Blythbank in 1871. This is the household at Todlaw, also 1871:
Mary Ferguson 66 Income Derived From Interest Of Money, b. Coldingham, Berwickshire
Margaret Ferguson 34 daughter Income Derived From Interest Of Money b. Dunse
Fanny Robertson 25 servant
Address: Todlaw, Dunse
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Just been looking at Maxwell Ancestry which is great for this part of Scotland. They offer the option to search by address only and also, like FreeCen, you can go previous/next household.
This looks to be Welnage in 1851 www.maxwellancestry.com/census/51transcript.aspx?houseid=73503004 and 1841 www.maxwellancestry.com/census/41transcript.aspx?houseid=73505002
You can follow the enumerator's path this way. Matches what we are seeing on that NLS map...still can't see Blythbank on this though...
On a more general point, this is an address search in 1861 Berwickshire with the word 'school' in it from Maxwell Ancestry - www.maxwellancestry.com/census/61address.aspx Didn't think it really helped with this search but adding here just for background.
Monica
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Monica, thank you again .How strange that Blythbank isn't coming up on any early maps. That old map you gave me the link for is very clear, thanks.
I see from the property sale that there is also a building called Ellnabe Cottage in the same area. Not that that gets me anywhere!
Unfortunately my friend who has moved back to Duns has just gone on holiday for 2 weeks!
Re the dating, I don't know. Is it ok to put a message on the photo dating forum with a link to this post?
I will get back to this later.
Very grateful for your help.
Rae
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I would start a new dating post, adding once again the two school related photos on there, and then the link back to this post for background.
Monica
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The photo forum is the best place to get an answer, I'd suggested 1860s-70s but you'd be better off with a more informed guess as there's a chance they could be far more precise. Expect to get a few more questions about the photo itself e.g. size, what it is mounted on, whether there is anything on the back and so on.
S_L
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Hi all ,
Some time ago I posted this photo which dates to the 1860's -
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,275267.msg1592267.html#msg1592267
ev
Added - on the 1881 Census George Bruce age 49 photographer Mansfield Dunse , in 1861 he was a plumber.
The other photographer may have been Duncan Davidson age 52 7 Castle St Dunse in 1881.
http://www.maxwellancestry.com/census/61transcript.aspx?houseid=73903011
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Does look like a similar period doesn't it.
Just adding this for now to the possible pile - Wellfield House, Duns shows as a school in 1871. James Wood, his wife and children, and a brother are there. James as schoolmaster, his two eldest daughters and brother, show as teachers. About 40 boys aged 12-16 show there (no girls). 1861 here www.maxwellancestry.com/census/61transcript.aspx?houseid=73503080
Have to admit, I have spent the last 24 hrs looking at all these lovely houses in Duns! This one is particularly beautiful www.periodproperty.co.uk/ppuk_discovering_ppom_201104.shtml
This looks to be the back (huge property), haven't been able to find the front of it so far. Used to be a guest house at one point.
Map location from here - think it is the correct one at this stage http://canmoremapping.rcahms.gov.uk/index.php?action=do_advanced&idnumlink=95378
This shows early 19th C which I don't understand except it went though major renovations in 1903 www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/sc-26576-preston-road-wellfield-house-with-gatepie:
Alexander was later to marry Isabella Rodick in 1902 and was able to buy his old school and turn it into a fine house.www.dunsehistorysociety.co.uk/cumledge.shtml
Wellfield House shows clearly on the 1857 NLS map (north east).
Monica
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Thanks everyone, again.
Monica, I hope you have had some sleep in between!
Wellfield House looks beautiful. It's amazing that over the years I have passed so near to all those houses and didn't know they existed. Brought up in the wrong circles, obviously!
Will get those photos onto the dating page.
I have had to copy all the messages onto Word so that I can grasp all the information I have received!
Rae
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Two Rootschat members on the photo dating website have kindly taken time to look at the school groups and have given me an approximate date - early to mid 1860's.
Rae
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It's been a while since I visited this post but I remember the first house photo you posted well. I was looking at family history which took me to Mersington, not far from Duns.
See the photo at the site below. There are quite a few similarities and I wondered if the roof & windows could have been replaced at some time either adding / removing the timber / other features on the photo you posted. The trees are quite similar too. Your photo might have been taken from a side view.
Just a thought.
https://tour-scotland-photographs.blogspot.com/2017/10/old-photograph-mersington-house-scotland.html