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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Maureeng on Thursday 21 March 13 20:32 GMT (UK)
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Sorry i forgot to add the photo with the writing on.
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Is it an English photo? If so - could it be shorthand? If not - Arabic perhaps??
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Hi Maureen :)
Do you know the date of the photo, and where it was taken? Might help our shorthand experts to work out what it is. Perhaps you could post the front of the photo (if you want to).
Prue
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Here is the Front of the photo. I am guessing it was taken about 1950/5. I am certain it was taken in Chepstow as it was before my Mum Married in 1957. Hope this helps, i am very curious as to what it says & my Mum is no longer with us so i cannot ask. I have looked at Arabic but it doesn't seem to match.
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I think it's definitely some kind of shorthand or code, whether it's an official one that anyone will be able to decipher is another matter :-\ I have to say at first glance i did wonder about Arabic too :)
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Hi there,
Certainly looks a bit like Pitman's shorthand. Having a bit of a stab at this if it is.
First line looks a bit like
(As far as I know man ? casanow? guessing that bit. Unsure of rest of line one.
Second line
Something (to each ) something (attraction and interest shown in) something.
Hope this helps but of course it could be Arabic.
Looking at photo and being in Chepstow. My father in the Army was stationed there at the latter end of the war and there was a prisoner of war camp there. Can;t remember the name of it now.
Notice on the picture uniformed man. A lot of the German prisoners became friends with the
Army men who were keeping watch over them. After the war some of the prisoners married
local women.
Sandra
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Can't help I'm afraid, but there are lots of people on here who can read shorthand. Change the subject title to include the word "shorthand" and you might catch their attention.
It's probably unlikely to be Arabic on the back of a photo of some English girls. (but I may be wrong ;))
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Is there any significance in the fact that there are 10 figures. Maybe 1 to 10 in a shorthand.
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Might be Gregg shorthand; I can read Pitman but this looks far too 'curly' for that!
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HiYes I agree,don't think it is Pitmans. A lot of little idiosyncracies. I am not familiar either with Gregg shorthand so can't comment on that. Feel sure more Rootschatters would have come up by now with an answer if it was Pitman shorthand.
Sandra
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Here is Gregg. Note also the Esperanto and German versions; http://gregg.angelfishy.net/anphrase.shtml
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Hi there,
Only way this could be Greg is if the image of the shorthand is turned upside down.
Could we have it put the other way around please.
Sandra
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OK
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Here are some shorthand samples:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0t82/
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Hi all thanks for all your comments. I am still going through the Gregg Shorthand, it is very similar, but the only letter that has a lot of dots is H. All the words can't begin with H?. I will keep looking.
Maureen
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The top line seems to be in a different hand to the second line - or at least written at a different time, more controlled, neater, whilst the bottom line is looser.
Could it be that the bottom is an answer or reply to the top line?
These two look like secretary colleagues, who may work in the same pool: their stock-in-trade, obviously, would be shorthand.
John
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Welcome to Rootschat Maureen.
Well, this is a mystery if ever there was one. :)
I keep changing my mind, one moment it's Pitman's shorthand then the next it's something like Arabic. I keep imaging I can see words like have, love and perhaps names like Emily or Amelia.
I wonder if someone took the photo other than your mother and then sent it to her with a message written on the back.
Had your mother knowledge of any other languages.
Perhaps if we bring it to the top of today's list then maybe someone new will spot something.
I can see where Sandra is coming from too.
Good luck.
Judy
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Hi Judy,
A mystery it is. As far as i know someone else did take the photo. My Mum didn't know any other Languages, & i don't think her friend did either.
I have been told it is not Arabic.
I wondered if the second line could be the date? Also could the first line be their names?
Not sure how to put it to the top of todays list, maybe someone can tell me how to do it.
Thanks for all your help :)
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Its donkeys years since I last wrote or read Pitmans shorthand, but my feeling is that there aren't enough straight strokes in this sample; Pitmans is about 50/50 straight and curved, and with less dots.
The sample of Greggs on google are more like this than Pitmans .... but .... :-\
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I thought it may have been a Indian language such has Telugu ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telugu_alphabet but I am not so sure, anyway, have a look here for some more; http://www.omniglot.com/writing/syllabic.htm
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Could it be Urdu? Some of the letters in the Alphabet section seem promising.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu_alphabet
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It's obviously written with pen and ink so it could be crude shorthand?
Are there no Gregg experts out there?
Judy
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As I said earlier I thought it was a Indian script, such as Telugu but I don't think it is, neither do I think it is Urdu, although that was what made me look at Indian languages. I do think it may be a script derived from Persian writing but there are so many to look at. This one for instance; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiaoerjin
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Do scroll down on that one
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Hi
Boyd's syllabic shorthand seems to be my favourite as it is based on circles as representing
consonants. Trouble is there doesn't seem to be any images of this shorthand available other than buying the original books. It was invented in the early 1900s which fits the date and was and is widely used. It is English in origin.
Sandra
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For your perusal, although I think it as to many straight lines.; http://www.archive.org/stream/boydshorthandiss00boyd#page/n0/mode/2up
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That was interesting to look through the Boyd Shorthand Instructor - it always amazes what you can find on the internet. I see what you mean about the straight lines.
It made me wonder though if the writing on the back of the photo was not a complete sentence but rather practice of particular elements. It might not actually relate to the front of the photo.
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Can't sleep at night thro' this mystery.
Is there anyone from Bletchley Park still out there?
Judy
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It made me wonder though if the writing on the back of the photo was not a complete sentence but rather practice of particular elements. It might not actually relate to the front of the photo.
I wondered earlier about that, being that there are 10 separate figures which made me wonder wether it was 1 to 10
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Perhaps someone from the Armed Forces - World War 2 board would have an idea on this.
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Hi Both,
I just about gave up on Boyd's last night. What I can't understand is ,if this photograph was taken at a dance and then sent to either of the two on the photograph then they would all have had to understand what was written on theback. It would then have to be something recognizable and commonplace. Nor did I realise there were so many types of shorthand before in the UK.
Sandra
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This could be something as simple as a secret code the girls made up between themselves.
Using their high school shorthand and making a few changes only they would understand.
I remember doing this.
Norma
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Yes, I suppose it could be a secret code between the girls but I feel sure I've seen it written down somewhere.
I wrote Pitman's shorthand in the Sixties and I suppose it could be interpreted as something like that.
Hope someone comes up with an answer. ;D
Judy
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It's not Pitman; in an earlier incarnation I was a verbatim shorthand writer, and whilst it may look similar, it has too many curves and dots. A novice Pitman writer would use light and dark strokes with carefully placed vowels, whilst an accomplished writer would leave most of the vowels out altogether ;D
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Yes, you are absolutely correct so back to the foreign language idea or schoolgirl code.
Judy
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Sorry I have no knowledge of any of this stuff, just wanted to tell you I am intrigued and can't wait for someone to solve the mystery for us!
Fascinating post!
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This seems to be an informative website in respect of shorthand and other symbolic writing styles.
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/shorthand.htm
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This seems to be an informative website in respect of shorthand and other symbolic writing styles.
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/shorthand.htm
See page 2
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I see you have already posted a link to another page of that site, YT. Not that either of our posts help, I suspect.
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I trawled through the site GS and found similar but not any that matched
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It is so frustrating because it definitely looks like shorthand. Trouble is, there are several lesser-known types of shorthand apart from Pitman and Gregg. Would be good if we could find a sample of one of those.
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I still think that it is 1 to 10 in some form
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Fascinating thread. I hope you get an answer soon, Maureeng. I don't know much about shorthand but there looks to be too many curly bits and dots here to me. Girls are notorious for making up secret codes though, and it does have the look of an Asian or Indian language.
Maggie :)
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I wonder if it would make any more sense if looked at in a mirror. Just a thought ....
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Urdu has dots and squiggles, but the dots seem to be grouped together rather than randomly placed as on the photo. And the date of the photo predates the arrival of Urdu in the UK. Of course it could have been added later.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Urdu_alphabets.png
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Gosh Maggie, that certainly looks very similar! Maybe you are onto something there.
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The difficulty is I don't know how Urdu 'works' - could each separate group of marks that we see on the back of the photo be made up of combinations of strokes representing different letters? Explaining it rather badly I fear.
Maggie
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I wonder if it was a code or shorthand picked up from some literary source, say a popular mystery novel of the day. And look at this sample from Dickens:
http://blog.themorgan.org/a-letter-from-charles-dickens.aspx
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Urdu has dots and squiggles, but the dots seem to be grouped together rather than randomly placed as on the photo. And the date of the photo predates the arrival of Urdu in the UK. Of course it could have been added later.
I think that Urdu would have been present in the UK a long time before the photo was taken.My grandfather served in India and could speak [some] Urdu, and another person in the village in England that he lived in could also. This person could probably read and write it, although I am not certain but he did translate several Sanscrit texts. Apart from this example I am sure that the knowledge of Urdu would have been here for a good while previous.
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Maureen, do you know of countries visited, parents posted abroad? Maybe someone wrote it when abroad.
Thaana script from http://www.omniglot.com/writing/thaana.htm has squiggles and dots.
Perhaps code used in WWII?
Won't go as far as to suggest Klingon but it's very intriguing.
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Of course you are quite correct YT, although the presence of the Urdu script would not have been as familiar to people in the 1950s as it has increasingly become in the UK since that time.
That's an interesting link to Dickens's shorthand Erato. A challenge to decipher it.
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This is driving me nuts, so I've e-mailed SOAS, the School of Oriental and African Studies, part of the London University, to see if they can help.
KR
Gaie
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Useful contacts there Gaie. I suppose if they don't recognise it, we're back to some form of shorthand again. By a process of elimination, sooner or later, we might get it.
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Perhaps someone from the Armed Forces - World War 2 board would have an idea on this.
There have been so many interesting theories on this it will be interesting to find an answer. That said, has the image been tried on the Armed Forces board yet?
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I've started biting my nails again which is a form of stress-relief! ;)
Interesting article about Dickens Erato. What a strange fellow he must have been.
I think that the person who took the photograph must have written on the back of it. Who was that person. A soldier, another girlfriend or?......
Judy
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Not Pitman's for sure - I believe it is Gregg's and the best place to ask would actually be on a US forum as they used it more than Pitman's.
lydiaann
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Here's images of Greggs shorthand:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tiy/
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I'm going cross-eyed with this, but there don't look to be enough dots for it to be Greggs, although the loops are there.
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At a cursory glance Gregg and Pitman look very similar and they are both composed of straight and curved lines. The writing on the back of the photo seems to consist solely of curves, from what I can make out.
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Hi All:
So many ideas over so many pages - we are going in circles ;D
I've just realized that its been a while since Maureeng has posted on this - 03/April/13
Wondering where she is?
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Probably gone mad
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Probably gone mad
;D ;D
My request to SOAS has been passed on to an eminent professor; I'll keep us updated. :)
KR
Gaie
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Wow - it pays to have friends in high places. ;)
Judy
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Wow - it pays to have friends in high places. ;)
Judy
Oh, I wish! ::) I just asked... ;D
Gaie
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I feel confident that you have taken this thread forward considerably by your action. ;D ;D
It's just like waiting for the murderer to be denounced in an Agatha Christie novel. ::)
Judy
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How exciting and well done, Gaie! Will be interested to know if he/she will be as stumped as the rest of us. ;D
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Just bookmarking...I don't want to miss out on the solution :D
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Hi all, so sorry for not replying. Had computer problems hopefully ok now. I am as curious as you all, to know what is written on this photo.
Thank you to Gaie for trying to get us all an answer. I will keep searching all the links that everyone has posted.
I now carry a copy of it my bag, so if i talk to someone i ask them if they know. Its worth a try you never know the answer could be just around the corner. :)
Maureen
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I now carry a copy of it my bag, so if i talk to someone i ask them if they know. Its worth a try you never know the answer could be just around the corner. :)
Maureen
Quote from: youngtug on Monday 15 April 13 17:50 BST (UK)
Probably gone mad
Many a true word spoken in jest, I can just envision you stopping complete strangers and digging this bit of paper out and,,,,, ;D
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I sure do, and i'm sure they think i'm mad. I even ask in a Chinese restaurant & its not Chinese.
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I too have printed it off and it's in my handbag. I took it to the art group - no luck there but, as Maureen says, I may strike lucky somewhere. ;D
Judy
P.S. Possible new thread "What's in your handbag?" ::)
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I reckon it is a secret cypher made up by the two girls and they are the only ones with the decoder or failing that maybe just a series of squiggles and dots meaning absolutely nothing but to give a headache to anyone finding the photo ;D ;D
Jean
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Hi
Just to update, no reply yet from the professor, but a couple of people have suggested Persian/Farsi/Parsi. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/persian.htm
Gaie
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Perhaps someone from the Armed Forces - World War 2 board would have an idea on this.
Let's at least try posting in another part of rootschat
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I'm another who is carting it around in the hope that someone i meet will recognise the script. But I do wonder if Jean is correct in that it is a secret code that only those girls can decider for us. I remember in my youth my friends and I making up codes, though nothing as intriguing as this. We used to write in lemon juice too and it could only be read when you warmed the page - did anyone else do that?
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Yes, I did that and also with vinegar, I think? ;D
I'm going to stick my head out and say that it's shorthand of some sort.
Judy
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I have been a Gregg shorthand writer for very many years and the outlines look nothing like the shorthand I was taught and have used and am still using to this day. It comes in very handy for making quick notes though.
Good luck in your search for an answer.
Aquilegia18
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As I said earlier I thought it was a Indian script, such as Telugu but I don't think it is, neither do I think it is Urdu, although that was what made me look at Indian languages. I do think it may be a script derived from Persian writing but there are so many to look at. This one for instance; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiaoerjin
Not sure if anybody scrolled down on this link.
Look's like other people think along similar lines, re; Gaie,s quote that follows;-
Hi
Just to update, no reply yet from the professor, but a couple of people have suggested Persian/Farsi/Parsi. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/persian.htm
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I am so glad that Aquilegia has posted and confirmed that it is not Gregg shorthand. So that's a definite no for both that and Pitman!
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Just book-marking. Hope the professor replies. Intriguing..... ::)
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I think we are all waiting for the professor. :)
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Could it be Duployan Shorthand? See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duployan_shorthand plenty of curves and dots there.
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I think we are all waiting for the professor. :)
and still waiting.......
Judy
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Hi
Boyd's syllabic shorthand seems to be my favourite as it is based on circles as representing
consonants. Trouble is there doesn't seem to be any images of this shorthand available other than buying the original books. It was invented in the early 1900s which fits the date and was and is widely used. It is English in origin.
Sandra
You can read the whole text book on Boyd's Syllabic Shorthand here in openlibrary.org - http://archive.org/stream/syllabicshorthan00boyd#page/28/mode/2up/search/5
Just enter the page number you want then click 'Go' or click on the tabs at the bottom. From a quick look I would say that there is too much use of straight lines for this to be what we are all looking for.
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See post 25
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I feel sure that the two lines are written in a different colour ink. A lab could confirm this. It would also be likely that each writer - if two different people would add their name at the end of the line and might then revert slightly to a normal letter. For instance the last name second line might be Janet or something similar beginning with 'J'.
I was in the RAF from 1951 to 1954, so can relate to the time period. Being so definite that the place is Chepstow, I would send the photo to the Chepstow and Caldicot News - http://www.chepstow-today.co.uk/index.cfm Someone might then be able to identify the friend or even know 'Mam'. They might also be able to identify the army base. The photo is clearly taken outside as you can see some bushes and the side of what looks like a wooden hut to the left, and a window to the right. Never stopped in Chepstow myself, but drove through there many times around those years going to and from Barry. Winter of '51 I was stationed at Credenhill, Hereford but mostly travelled from there by train to Cardiff.
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Funny think I've just recalled. RAF Credenhill used to train recruits in shorthand.
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I'm bookmarking too! Fascinating thread :)
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Just let my husband see it, he is from the Middle East, and it is definitely not Arabic! At first glance he thought it was Urdu. I can't wait to find out what it says!! Hope we get an answer!
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! At first glance he thought it was Urdu. I can't wait to find out what it says!! Hope we get an answer!
That's what I thought way back in the thread, not that I'm an expert thought. :-\
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Hi ,
I think Malcolm 33 post re Credington.
Lots of info on the fast teachings of shorthand and typing courses there in the 50's. They taught
for recruits going to lots of postings overseas. I think that this vein needs looking at further.
Perhaps somone who went to Credington might come up with the answer. Quite a lot of
info on sites but also there does seem to have been a derivation between Gregg and
Pitmans with personal or broadhand extras.
They did mention a few places overseas,but to be honest a lot of reading material onsite.
Sandra
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Sorry all,
Meant Credenhill. Old age you know.
Sandra
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Well now you have me thinking back to my 3 months at RAF Credenhill. We didn't always get the same classroom and therefore often a very different assortment of typewriters which the RAF must have gathered up from old bases all over the world. One had French accents on it. We were subjected to all kinds of exercises - one with a small piece of blanket fixed over the keyboard and our hands, then another time having to type a moving message on a screen while they played a record of the Post Horn Gallop.
If you were ever caught looking down you could get a sharp crack across your knuckles from Flight Sergeant's ruler. Then you would be woken during the night by other airmen spelling out words in their sleep.
After that it was straight on to embarkation leave followed by about a week at RAF Lytham St.Anne's getting jabs and kitted out in tropical kit. Then departure not being told where we were all going, but landing up on a train back to Euston, then RAF Hendon to wait and wait. In the end we were told that it would not be until the next day and I was able to go get a local bus home for the night.
Next morning reporting back and there was still a delay so had a morning seeing all my mates back at Cooks in Berkeley Street before going back to Hendon and at last a coach to take us to Blackebush. It was getting dark again before the old York took off heading first to Malta for dinner at 1am and then away again over the Sahara across to the Canal Zone to land at RAF Fayid. Next came 10 days at RAF El Hamra close to the Great Bitter Lake on the Suez Canal. Still we didn't know where we would end up. Had I had 19 days more in Egypt I would have been awarded a medal - there were random attacks every night. When we did get away the MO condemned the troop decks on the Mohammedi trooper - normally a pilgrim ship to Mecca. So back to El Hamra again, only to be woken during the night with instructions to be up and ready by 6am. Back to the Red Sea Port just past Suez and now only 30 of us to board the ship where we had staterooms for the 4 days it eventually took to reach Aden.
Then 2 whole years working in a tiny thatched roof stone building next to the hospital -
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Hi Mal
Don't want to hog the site here but there is a great Credenhill website and I think I saw your photo on there, perhaps.
My husband,now I am a widow,was in Aden and he used to tell me of stories of Credenhill being top secret.
I have beenin touch this morning with a lady who used to work at Credenhill and did the shorthand course to ask her if she has any ideas.
Sandra
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Not too much off-topic I hope.
My step-father was in the RAF end of WW2 and 1950s and was also in Aden for a long stretch!! He was a Flight Sergeant but worked in the cook-house. He left an exercise book so I'll look in it and see if there's any shorthand there. :D
I know there's instructions what to do if there's a nuclear bomb explosion!! ::) ::)
He was at RAF Fradley, Staffordshire, though.
Thanks Sandra for all your input. Keep up the good work. I wonder what happened about the Professor?
Judy
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This is a fascinating little diversion and hopefully it may well have a bearing on the writing on the back of the photo. I do hope the lady who worked at Chedenhill can throw a bit of light on it Sandra.
And where IS that Professor. ::)
Maggie
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Hi Mal
Don't want to hog the site here but there is a great Credenhill website and I think I saw your photo on there, perhaps.
My husband,now I am a widow,was in Aden and he used to tell me of stories of Credenhill being top secret.
I have beenin touch this morning with a lady who used to work at Credenhill and did the shorthand course to ask her if she has any ideas.
Sandra
I think I found the site you mean, but though some good group photos there, not the course I was in. I have however now sent them a photo of Typing Course 81 which was 25 Oct 1951 to 31 Jan 1952.
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Hi Mal,
Derek Bower there in the late 50's I believe as instructor in shorthand and he demonstrated
100 wpm which was quite fast. Trouble is they don't say which shorthand he practised.Perhaps someone else on Rootschat can find more info on him.
They taught high speeds within 6 months at Credenhill.
Sandra
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Hi, i am still trying to find out what is on this photo. I have posted it on Facebook & The Omniglot site & no one seems to know. Maybe the professor will have some news, no news is good news as they say.
Maureen x
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Hi, i am still trying to find out what is on this photo. I have posted it on Facebook & The Omniglot site & no one seems to know. Maybe the professor will have some news, no news is good news as they say.
Maureen x
Thanks for the update - I keep wondering about it. :)
sami
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Hi All
Sorry for the lack of activity from me recently - family issues.
I've had no response so far, so I've just fired another e-mail off to SOAS. Here's hoping :)
Gaie
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Hi Gaie,
Thanks for all your help. I am still searching the internet, with no luck.
Maureen
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Hi,
Sandra thought it looked like casanow. How about casanova?
Norma
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Hi All,
Sorry not been in touch moving house and pretty much just got back online.
Not heard of Casanow,that's a new one on me. Anyway I am still keeping my eyes open in case something looks similar. It must be out there somewhere,someone wrote it.
Sandra
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Yes, someone wrote it - but they could have made it up themselves! My brothers and I often used to write in code when we were kids; maybe this is an example of something from childhood still used for secrecy. In which case, we will never find out what it means, sadly.
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As another who used to make up codes in my youth, I'm inclined to agree with GS.
In which case, sadly we will never have the answer.
Maggie :)
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Perhaps its time to call in the Bletchley Circle? But seriously someone who has worked on deciphering codes might unlock this mystery. I guess that the Germans did use some shorthand ciphers - any chance that the young ladies were part of a military decoding team?
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On the top line: characters '4' and '6': are those question marks intergrated into the letter-forms?
Top line seems to be in one hand; the bottom seems to be in another.
Probably says:
Q: Are you going out to the dance tonight?
A: Try stopping me!
I'm joking...!
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Sorry folks, still no reply from SOAS ???
Gaie
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I am still searching & asking people, with no luck. I guess the Professor is having problems solving it.
No news is good news.
Maureen
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My guess is that the dots represent vowels, and the squiggly lines are consonants or consonant sounds. It looks a bit like Teeline shorthand, but can't be Teeline as that wasn't invented until the late '60s. I'm wondering if it works on the same principles though. Here's my guess:
Line 1, starting from symbol 3: ".... summer dance together with"
Line 2, last symbol: "Eleanor"
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Could it be military shorthand? See - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2539287/Museum-uncovers-100-year-old-diaries-WWI-soldier-no-idea-say-theyre-written-SHORTHAND.html
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The shorthand in the diary is normal Pitmans shorthand. The original posting is not Pitmans.