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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Monaghan => Topic started by: madpat on Saturday 23 March 13 19:38 GMT (UK)
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I was wondering when the first protestant settlers arrived in Monaghan and also if any one knows if there were lists of names of settlers arriving in the country. Were they given land for example? Any links to this would be most welcome.
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My four times great grandfather Thomas McVittie ( CoI) was living at Clones Co Monaghan in 1778 in the occupation of farmer when his son Elliott was born in 1778. So I assume there were Protestants about much earlier than that
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17th century according to this website- "County Monaghan, although part of Old Ulster was not a Plantation county but it did receive Scots settlers in the 17th century as witness the First Monaghan Presbyterian Church in Monaghan Town which celebrated its Tercentenary in 1997."
http://www.ulsternationalist.freeservers.com/custom2.html
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1640's
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As a general comment about Scots & English settlers who came to Ireland in the 1600s, there are no records of land allocations, save for major landowners (ie thousands of acres). It’s not normally possible to trace the subtenants who rented smaller plots from them, for that era. (The search for them is quite a well trodden path).
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As a general comment about Scots & English settlers who came to Ireland in the 1600s, there are no records of land allocations, save for major landowners ie thousands of acres). It’s not normally possible to trace the subtenants who rented smaller plots from them, for that era. (The search for them is quite a well trodden path).
These are all in Essex!
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These are all in Essex!
Sorry but I don't understand your comment to the previous post- could you please explain further.
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Records are in Essex.
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What records? it would certainly help if you could tell us what these records are and where they are located.
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Lennard Barrett Papers, Essex Records Office.
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Would have been nice if you'd posted the details back in your first post here :-\
PRONI has details of Barrett Lennard Papers- microfilmed copies available in Belfast (see page 12 + onward for details of the papers):
http://www.proni.gov.uk/introduction__barrett_lennard_d1232-2.pdf
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Thank you for all the help on this one! I can trace a ggg grandfather back to about 1780 (through deduction) but I was wondering when protestant settlers first arrived. I suppose great chunks of land were granted to some and then poorer settlers came over to work for them.
I shall be looking at those links to find out more. Thanks again.
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I have been researching the McGruther name in Scotland and concluded that they came to Monaghan as settlers about 1625, as the Duke of Perth on whose land they lived was one of the Undertakers. The Belfast Register Office appears to call them McGrew, and the name eventually appears under loads of variations in Scotland and USA like McGrouther, McGruder, and Magruder. The attraction to them appears to be that they were tenants in Scotland but were offered 3000 acres in Ireland as owners.
The Irish variation appears to be McGrother
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Protestant names began to appear in Monaghan over a period of about 50 years, from 1606 to the 1650s. As a result of the Tudor, Stewart and Cromwellian conquests of Ireland, as we know, most of the land in Ireland was taken from the native Irish and given to Protestant planters. Monaghan, however, did not have the heavily organized plantation settlement that Northern Ulster experienced. Consequently, Protestant names are fewer. The pattern of land ownership in the 1606 division of County Monaghan, for instance, divided about 60 per cent of the county between a dozen main Gaelic families (former territorial chiefs/leaders) and several hundred of their followers. The rest of the county was divided among just a few British/English planters. Some of the new landlords were men who purchased estates from the Irish chiefs and then brought in more British settlers -- such as John Burnett of Ballyleck in 1609, who bought land from County Monaghan's famous MacMahons and settled it with his choice of Ulster and British tenants. MadPat theorized correctly that: <<great chunks of land were granted to some and then poorer settlers came over to work for them.>>
The Cromwellian settlements of the early-to-mid-1600s included men who were discharged soldiers (taking land as their pay), as well as planters and followers of the new landholding gentry. So, all sorts of surnames came into County Monaghan with these ex-soldiers and civilians, not just lords' and ladies' names. Still, the 1659 census shows only 434 "English" heads of household living in the county, while 3,649 Irish families were residents of Monaghan. If your ancestors were Protestant, they aren't hard to find in that small a percentage.
There are a number of excellent books and articles describing the changes in land ownership in County Monaghan over the centuries and the arrival of specific Protestant groups, with dates, locations, estate records, surname lists, hearth money rolls, etc. Not only were there new English soldiers, planters and tenants whose names began to appear in County Monaghan records, but the Castleblayney area saw an influx of French Huguenots (one of my ancestral lines in Co. Monaghan was a French Huguenot family -- the Calvins/Colvins). Scots settlers came in at different times, as well. So you'll see several types of Protestant surnames coming into Monaghan records of the Tudor to Cromwellian time period, not just English/British. Keep that in mind as you do your research.
Recommended reading:
The History of the County of Monaghan, by Evelyn Philip Shirley (1879)
History of the County of Monaghan for 200 years: 1660 -1860, by Denis Carolan Rushe (1921)
The Monaghan Story, by Peadar Livingstone (1980)
"The Evolution of Estate Properties in South Ulster, 1600-1900," by Patrick J. Duffy in Common Ground: Essays on the Historical Geography of Ireland (1988)
Landscapes of South Ulster, by Patrick J. Duffy
County Monaghan Sources in the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (1998)
Also, see the Clogher Record articles index by the Clogher Historical Society, which is on-line. Excellent society and publications. And, they offer overseas as well as UK memberships.
Annie
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I agree that, Monaghan was not a plantation and was settled later than the plantations. (Sorry, vague.)
My Harrison ancestor arrive in County Monaghan in about 1700 and the Harrisons may not have had land until about 1760, at Church Hill and then rented it from a middleman of Lord Blaney. So to answer your questions they were not necessarily given land. Harrison cousins also had land at Ballybay.
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Some examples of Land given out mid1600's are in the Clogher Record and Clogher Record Journals are on JSTOR, gathered from Essex where original records are.
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I have been researching the McGruther name in Scotland and concluded that they came to Monaghan as settlers about 1625, as the Duke of Perth on whose land they lived was one of the Undertakers
could you advise what date did this occur and would you know if the name dycher dicher deecher dyker was included in this list as I have the following detail from one of the researchers of this line
6. DYKER is a name largely confined to the same
Perth, the Scottish landlord who owned the land the family tenanted in County Monaghan, came from
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I have been researching the McGruther name in Scotland and concluded that they came to Monaghan as settlers about 1625, as the Duke of Perth on whose land they lived was one of the Undertakers
could you advise what date did this occur and would you know if the name dycher dicher deecher dyker was included in this list as I have the following detail from one of the researchers of this line
6. DYKER is a name largely confined to the same
Perth, the Scottish landlord who owned the land the family tenanted in County Monaghan, came from
The Muster Rolls c1630, “Men & Arms, edited by the late RJ Hunter does not list anyone of that name in Monaghan at that time. Nearest was Richard Dichare & John Dicher both in the Bishop of Kilmore’s estate in the barony of Castleraine, Co. Cavan.
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The Muster Rolls c1630, “Men & Arms, edited by the late RJ Hunter does not list anyone of that name in Monaghan at that time. Nearest was Richard Dichare & John Dicher both in the Bishop of Kilmore’s estate in the barony of Castleraine, Co. Cavan.
thanks for that Elwyn Soutter do you happen to know from the above info if the bishop of kilmores estate belongs to the perths or nor
if its negative
ill follow the trail of Richard and john once again thanks for your assistance
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What was the name of the Duke of Perth?
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Drummond was the son of Patrick Drummond (3rd Lord Drummond) and Lady Elizabeth Lindsay. He married Jean Kerr, daughter of Sir Robert Kerr, 1st Earl of Roxburghe and Mary Maitland, on 28 August 1613. He succeeded to his father's title of 4th Lord Drummond in 1602 and then on 8 December 1611 (by special remainder) to the title of Earl of Perth created for his brother James Drummond (1586–1611).
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sorry about that james was his first name james Drummond
James, Lord Drummond, Ambassador to Spain, was created Earl of Perth in 1605.
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Thanks.... I didn't see his name in
Lease Abstracts for the Clones Estate, County Monaghan
Donald M. Schlegel
Clogher Record
Vol. 18, No. 1 (2003), pp. 53-84 but there was the Ker Estate near newbliss.
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http://www.proni.gov.uk/introduction__barrett_lennard_d1232-2.pdf Already posted!
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go raibh maith agat thanks for that
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1625 I have been researching the McGruther name in Scotland and concluded that they came to Monaghan as settlers about 1625, as the Duke of Perth on whose land they lived was one of the Undertakers
sorry Elwyn Soutter I meant to ask you on the perth lands in scotalnd where the mcgruthers resided do you happen to know if the dichear dicher dycher deacher deecher ditcher were also residing there
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thanks for that Elwyn Soutter do you happen to know from the above info if the bishop of kilmores estate belongs to the perths
I don’t have any specific information for the Bishop of Kilmore’s estate (of 2000 acres) but I would expect it to belong to the Church of Ireland with him being a trustee. I doubt he owned it personally. I also doubt it was leased to the Church. I would expect them to have been the ultimate owner.
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1625 I have been researching the McGruther name in Scotland and concluded that they came to Monaghan as settlers about 1625, as the Duke of Perth on whose land they lived was one of the Undertakers
sorry Elwyn Soutter I meant to ask you on the perth lands in scotalnd where the mcgruthers resided do you happen to know if the dichear dicher dycher deacher deecher ditcher were also residing there
There's no mention of the Drummond family in Monaghan in the county Muster Rolls. So possibly they hadn't arrived in 1630.
I don't know whether Dicher etc was a common name on Perth lands in Scotland.
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"Black's!" has the name "Dishart" a Fife name, St Andrew's, Leith.
Skoosh.
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"Black's!" has the name "Dishart" a Fife name, St Andrew's, Leith.
Skoosh.
Dysart is a surname found in Ulster- perhaps connected?
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1625 I have been researching the McGruther name in Scotland and concluded that they came to Monaghan as settlers about 1625, as the Duke of Perth on whose land they lived was one of the Undertakers
Elwyn Soutter you are researching the mcgruther name in Scotland and from your information I gather
the mcgruther were residing in Scotland with the duke of perth pre 1625 ---1a where did you get this information from --- 1b and could you advise me where in Scotland was this estate ----1c you seem to be saying that there are no dichears dykers on the records pre 1825 on this duke of perth estate at 1b
then you seem to record
that the duke of perth came over to monaghan ---2a do you know where he came over to in monaghan ---and that he brought some mcgruthers with him who ended up settling in monaghan ----2b could you advise me where they the mcgruthers settled in monaghan -----as I have a tentative link that the dykers came over with the duke of perth and settled here in Ireland and they may have settled near or around the area where the mcgruthers settled around 1620s 1630s 1630s ---but there is no record of these dyckers on the muster rolls except for at castlemaine county cavan
so I was wondering 3a did the duke of perth have other estates in Ireland or did he only have the one estate and if he had one or more do you happen to know the locations of same from your research
again thanking you in advance for nay information that you may be able to share and provide me with
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1625 I have been researching the McGruther name in Scotland and concluded that they came to Monaghan as settlers about 1625, as the Duke of Perth on whose land they lived was one of the Undertakers
Elwyn Soutter you are researching the mcgruther name in Scotland and from your information I gather
the mcgruther were residing in Scotland with the duke of perth pre 1625 ---1a where did you get this information from --- 1b and could you advise me where in Scotland was this estate ----1c you seem to be saying that there are no dichears dykers on the records pre 1825 on this duke of perth estate at 1b
then you seem to record
that the duke of perth came over to monaghan ---2a do you know where he came over to in monaghan ---and that he brought some mcgruthers with him who ended up settling in monaghan ----2b could you advise me where they the mcgruthers settled in monaghan -----as I have a tentative link that the dykers came over with the duke of perth and settled here in Ireland and they may have settled near or around the area where the mcgruthers settled around 1620s 1630s 1630s ---but there is no record of these dyckers on the muster rolls except for at castlemaine county cavan
so I was wondering 3a did the duke of perth have other estates in Ireland or did he only have the one estate and if he had one or more do you happen to know the locations of same from your research
again thanking you in advance for nay information that you may be able to share and provide me with
No I am not researching McGruther, and I didn’t say anything about them residing in Scotland. I just provided information about the names in the Irish Muster Rolls in 1630. I know nothing about the Duke of Perth.
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Drummond (Earl of Perth and Melfort)
Description
George Drummond, Earl of Perth and Duke de Melfort, held land in the parish and barony of Dunmore, county Galway in the mid 1850s. In 1847 he married as his second wife Susan Henrietta, daughter of Thomas Bermingham Daly Henry Sewell of Athenry and his wife Harriet Beresford. The Earl owned 3,439 acres in county Galway in the 1870s
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Elwyn Soutter I apologise for asking you a question on something that you did not post but im delighted you answered me about the muster rolls because I did not know about them and to find two dichares is a very rare thing indeed so once again thanks for assisting me on the dichare dicher connection
post the posterior posts to your answer I know have the following information
Sir john drummond the sone of sir john married majorie hamilton daughter to the laird of blair hamilton he was the last baron of boorland---- 1A boorland is where in Scotland could anyone inform me
1605 James, Lord Drummond, Ambassador to Spain, was created Earl of Perth in 1605.
1611 December 8 john Drummond made earl of perth say 1612 approx.
posterior to 1611 for he john Drummond first baron of boorland sold the baronie to john earl of perth and with the money passed to ireland where he made a purchase of land called kesh castle in the county of tyrone and died chyldeless about the year 1630----- 1B any one what parish kesh castle is in the county of tyrone----- 1C could anyone tell me if this john Drummond baron of boorland brought tenants over to tyrone with him and if so was there a dicher dichear ditcher dycher deacher deecher dyker family with him
John Drummond, 2nd Earl of Perth (1588 – 11 June 1662) was a Scottish nobleman. Drummond was the son of Patrick Drummond (3rd Lord Drummond) and Lady Elizabeth Lindsay. He married Jean Kerr, daughter of Sir Robert Kerr, 1st Earl of Roxburghe and Mary Maitland, on 28 August 1613. He succeeded to his father's title of 4th Lord Drummond in 1602 and then on 8 December 1611 (by special remainder) to the title of Earl of Perth created for his brother James Drummond (1586–1611).
1625 I have been researching the McGruther name in Scotland and concluded that they came to Monaghan as settlers about 1625, as the Duke of Perth on whose land they lived was one of the Undertakers so now I am supposing that the duke of perth in the barony of boorland Scotland moved with some tenants mcguthers to monaghan 1625 if so 2a the tenants of 1625 boorland in Scotland are there any dichers residing there on the duke of perth estate
2b where did they move to in Ireland monaghan where is the john Drummond earl of perth estate in Ireland
2c is there a list of tenants in monaghan which include mcgruthers and if so are there any dichers on that tenant list---if not how are the mcguthers saying they were in Ireland
6. DYKER is a name largely confined to the same Perth, the Scottish landlord who owned the land the family tenanted in County Monaghan, came from
3a this is my link and that's why im chasing the mcgruther connection because its all Ive got
The Muster Rolls c1630, “Men & Arms, edited by the late RJ Hunter does not list anyone of that name in Monaghan at that time. Nearest was Richard Dichare & John Dicher both in the Bishop of Kilmore’s estate in the barony of Castleraine, Co. Cavan.
I don’t have any specific information for the Bishop of Kilmore’s estate (of 2000 acres) but I would expect it to belong to the Church of Ireland with him being a trustee. I doubt he owned it personally. I also doubt it was leased to the Church. I would expect them to have been the ultimate owner.
4A this is my new line of enquiry thanks Elwyn Soutter so could anyone confirm for me who is the owner of this estate is it the drummonds the church of Ireland or somebody else
4b and is there a record of a tenant list with Richard dichare and john dicher on it
and once again any assistance on any of the questions 1A !B !C 2A 2B 2C 3A 4A 4B would be patiently awaited for
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This Duke of Perth business was a Jacobite promotion of the Earl of Perth so a bit of a fantasy. It remains as a dance called "The Duke of Perth!"
Skoosh.
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This Duke of Perth business was a Jacobite promotion of the Earl of Perth so a bit of a fantasy. It remains as a dance called "The Duke of Perth!"
Skoosh.
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Perth was an earl he was only a duke at the exiled Stewart court!
Skoosh.
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ok
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DUKE OF PERTH (Broun's Reel or Clean Pease Strae) (R8x32) 3C (4C set) RSCDS Book 1
1- 8 1s turn RH, cast to 2nd place, turn LH to face 1st corners
9-16 1s turn 1st corner, partner, 2nd corner and partner to face 1st corners
17-24 1s set to and turn 1st corner 2H, set to and turn 2nd corner
25-32 1s dance Reel of 3 on opposite sides giving LSh to 1st corner and cross back to own sides. 213
(MINICRIB, Dance Crib compiled by Charles Upton, Deeside Caledonian Society, and his successors)
Duke of Perth
Anon RSCDS Book 1
Reel 8 x 32 bars 3 Couple Repeat 4 Couple Set Longwise Set
1-4 1s turn by the right and cast;
5-8 1s turn by the left, finishing facing first corners;
9-16 1s turn corner, partner, corner, partner;
17-20 1s set to first corners and turn both hands;
21-24 1s set to second corners and turn both hands;
25-30 2s1s3s reels of 3 on sides (left shoulder to first corners to start);
31-32 1s cross to own sides, finishing 2s1s3s.
take to the floor the duke of perth dance begins its a Scottish reel one two three
on the right hand side the baron of boorland and the duke of perth and the dykers
one two three one two three move from Scotland to northern eire take your partner and give them a twirl
on the left hand side its a gaelic jig or is it a reel one two three four one tow three four
john Drummond of boorland tyrone john Drummond duke of perth of monagahn the mcgruther and the dichears
cross back to own sides eire to Scotland and in the blue corner we have the dummonds and in the red corner we have the mcgregors one two three pow wow punch one two three four bash crash wallop haymaker
“1612. March. At this time a skirmish took place between the Earl of Perth at the Head of a considerable force composed partly of MacGregors who had taken the name of Drummond and a body of MacGregors at Tomzarloch, the latter having occupied some houses were dislodged by means of fire applied, when five were captured and six killed. The killed were John Dow MacGregor, Donald Gramich MacGregor VcCulchere, John McPhatrik Nadidin MacGregor VcCulchere, Gregor McEan VcEanan MacGregor Elensisens (Gillespie?) MacGregor. The Earl’s force is thus specified in a pardon issued to them early in 1614, as appears from Mag. Sig. quoted at the proper date.
“John Earl Perth (2. Earl) John Master of Madertie James Drummond his brother Sir Alexander Drummond of Carnock Knight, Alexander brother of Sir William Drummond of Hawthornden, James Drummond of Millness, David Drummond, Chamberlain of Drymen, Thomas Drummond of Drummowhence, x John Drummond of Innerzeldie, x James Drummond his brother, x Duncan Drummond late of Kincart beg, x Duncan Drummond in Pitluir, x Duncan Drummond in Wester Dundorne, James Drummond officer, Patrick Drummond in Dalmarklawis* John Drummond in Auchinskelloch,* Duncan Drummond in Mawia, James Drummond in Balliclone, Patrick Drummond in Williamsoune, x John Drummmond in Wester Dundorne, Alexander Stewart in Port, Alexander Reidheugh* David Malloch, John Drummond of Drummondearnoch, Patrick Drummond forester of Glenartney,* John McCoruther, James Drummond of Pitzalloun* Malcolm McAndrew in Dundorn, James Stewart late in Torry,* James Menzies in Mewis William McNiven in Glen Artney,* John McCoruther in Blairtown, James Dow in Glenkishon.
Mr. MacGregor has marked with a cross those who he considers were MacGregors, adding that more might have been, and several others, who seem probable, are now marked with a star
one round with McGregor is enough I think the bell sounds back to your corners drummoind to the blue McGregor to the red
John McCoruther, John McCoruther in Blairtown, now I ask the following
1625 I have been researching the McGruther name in Scotland and concluded that they came to Monaghan as settlers about 1625, as the Duke of Perth on whose land they lived was one of the Undertakers
are these mccoruther the mcgruthers that dance the duke of perth Scottish reel and end up in tyrone or maonaghan doing an irish jig or reel or are the mccorthers a totally differenrt family line
any one else inj Scotland taking a partner and doing a Scottish jig or reel one two three one two three or do you prefer to do a gaelic dance one two three four one two three foue or better still can we cross back over and do a baron Drummond duke of perth now all together one two three one two three four and again one two three one two three four where are my dichers in this dance
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Can you provide a Source that the Duke of Perth was one of the Undertakers in Monaghan??
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Can you provide a Source that the Duke of Perth was one of the Undertakers in Monaghan??
I wondered about that too. My understanding was that Monaghan was outside the Plantation area and though quite a few Scots settled there, there were no Undertaker estates. But I could be wrong about that.
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Where's Robbie Shepherd when you need him? ;D
Skoosh.
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Where's Robbie Shepherd when you need him? ;D
Skoosh.
He's trying to use the clues to find where the treasure is buried.... ;D
1-4 1s turn by the right and cast;
5-8 1s turn by the left, finishing facing first corners;
9-16 1s turn corner, partner, corner, partner;
17-20 1s set to first corners and turn both hands;
21-24 1s set to second corners and turn both hands;
25-30 2s1s3s reels of 3 on sides (left shoulder to first corners to start);
31-32 1s cross to own sides, finishing 2s1s3s.
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over to you Duncan Don
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1591 the ownership of the land is different from its occupation and some areas of land and estates became more highly colonised by tenantry than others county monaghan was not included in the official plantation because in 1591 its land ownership had been reorganised mainly amongst the irish themselves though with a significant number of new English owners too and their numbers were to increase in the early 17th century the rationale for this reorganisation in 1591 had been to diminish the autonomy and independent power of an ulster gaelic lord mcmahon
1598 colonel edward blayney was the third son of David Lloyd blayney the high sheriff of Montgomeryshire 1577 and 1585 originally Blaenau family of welsh extraction claim descent from Cadwallader a younger son of a prince of wales accompanied the earl of essex to Ireland as colonel he was in command of 100 foot soldiers in leinster in 1598
1599 and commanding 150 at newry in 1599
1600 distinguished himself at the four mile water
1601 at the siege of Kinsale
1601 governor of mount Norris after helping defeat the macmahons
1602 made governor of the garrison of monaghan 1603 for his bravery Edward was knighted at Dublin castle in 1603 by the lord deputy lord mountjoy
1604 made seneschal and governor of county monaghan
1607 edward blayney granted land by king james 1 namely the 32 townlands of ballylurgan which were to be forfeighted if he does not build a strong castle surrounded withy a stone trench called a bawne within the next four years
1611 edward blayney was granted the termon of muckno and he built the original castle blayney on lough muckno using the stones of a destroyed augustian friary it was from the construction of this castle that a planter village soon grew and developed into the present town of castleblayney
1613 1617 permission was granted to hold fairs and markets and with the construction of the castle and the growth of the village edward blayney and the town of castleblayney Edward consolidated his position both locally and at national level
1613 edward blayney elected member of parliament mp for county monaghan between 1613 and 1615
1615 edward blayney investiture as a privy counsellor pc for Ireland 1615
1621 july 29th he was created by james 1 the first 1st lord blayney baron of the county monaghan of the county monaghan
1629 february 11th edward blayney 1st lord blayney died
1629 february 23rd buried monaghan church monaghan greatest of all the monaghan landlords was sir Edward blayney who was succeeded by his son henry
1646 henry was killed in the battle of benburb henrys son Edward sold both the monaghan and castleblayney estates but the castleblayney estate was bought back the monaghan part however went to the westenras who later became the lord rossmores and these did not always enjoy a particualily happy relationship with the native irish
so maybe that explains the monaghan lands being planted but not by undertakers
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In 1610, William Bailie from Ayrshire, an "undertaker", was granted 1,000 acres in Toneregie, now Tandragee, in the Barony of Clankee in Co. Cavan. He was required to settle some Scottish families and to build a bawn, within which was to be built a castle.
This was Bailieborough Castle, close to the site of what would eventually develop as the town of Bailieborough.
William Roulston, writing in Culture and Society in Early Modern Breifne/Cavan, edited by Brendan Scott (Four Courts Press, 2009), notes that by 1630-31 there were 200 Scottish men living on Scottish-owned estates in Cavan and probably 60 to 80 families. On English-owned estates there were perhaps another 44 Scottish men: “The number of Scots living in Cavan by 1630, therefore, was smaller than in any other plantation county and the second smallest, after Monaghan, of any county in Ulster.”
so maybe this may help me discover my cavan dichares and dichers maybe not
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1591 the ownership of the land is different from its occupation and some areas of land and estates became more highly colonised by tenantry than others county monaghan was not included in the official plantation because in 1591 its land ownership had been reorganised mainly amongst the irish themselves though with a significant number of new English owners too and their numbers were to increase in the early 17th century the rationale for this reorganisation in 1591 had been to diminish the autonomy and independent power of an ulster gaelic lord mcmahon
1598 colonel edward blayney was the third son of David Lloyd blayney the high sheriff of Montgomeryshire 1577 and 1585 originally Blaenau family of welsh extraction claim descent from Cadwallader a younger son of a prince of wales accompanied the earl of essex to Ireland as colonel he was in command of 100 foot soldiers in leinster in 1598
1599 and commanding 150 at newry in 1599
1600 distinguished himself at the four mile water
1601 at the siege of Kinsale
1601 governor of mount Norris after helping defeat the macmahons
1602 made governor of the garrison of monaghan 1603 for his bravery Edward was knighted at Dublin castle in 1603 by the lord deputy lord mountjoy
1604 made seneschal and governor of county monaghan
1607 edward blayney granted land by king james 1 namely the 32 townlands of ballylurgan which were to be forfeighted if he does not build a strong castle surrounded withy a stone trench called a bawne within the next four years
1611 edward blayney was granted the termon of muckno and he built the original castle blayney on lough muckno using the stones of a destroyed augustian friary it was from the construction of this castle that a planter village soon grew and developed into the present town of castleblayney
1613 1617 permission was granted to hold fairs and markets and with the construction of the castle and the growth of the village edward blayney and the town of castleblayney Edward consolidated his position both locally and at national level
1613 edward blayney elected member of parliament mp for county monaghan between 1613 and 1615
1615 edward blayney investiture as a privy counsellor pc for Ireland 1615
1621 july 29th he was created by james 1 the first 1st lord blayney baron of the county monaghan of the county monaghan
1629 february 11th edward blayney 1st lord blayney died
1629 february 23rd buried monaghan church monaghan greatest of all the monaghan landlords was sir Edward blayney who was succeeded by his son henry
1646 henry was killed in the battle of benburb henrys son Edward sold both the monaghan and castleblayney estates but the castleblayney estate was bought back the monaghan part however went to the westenras who later became the lord rossmores and these did not always enjoy a particualily happy relationship with the native irish
so maybe that explains the monaghan lands being planted but not by undertakers
Can you provide a Source that the Duke of Perth was one of the Undertakers in Monaghan??
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donn posted I have been researching the McGruther name in Scotland and concluded that they came to Monaghan as settlers about 1625, as the Duke of Perth on whose land they lived was one of the Undertakers.
I posted 6. DYKER is a name largely confined to the same Perth, the Scottish landlord who owned the land the family tenanted in County Monaghan, came from
I don't mention that they were undertakers
so why are you requesting this info from me
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back to Castlerabin aka Castleraghen aka Castlerahan aka castleraine where Richard dichare and
james dicher were
1 Sir William taffe castlerabin castlerahan mullogh
2 sire Edmond phittilace caryyn maybe carnin
3 Sir Thomas ash knight
4 lieutenant garth murmode maybe murm of Lurgan
5 captain ridgeway lough rammor alias the manir of Chichester
6 captain culme virginia town
7 sir john Elliot muckon
8 shane mcphilip orelie
anyone know if any of these 1-8 are Scottish
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donn posted I have been researching the McGruther name in Scotland and concluded that they came to Monaghan as settlers about 1625, as the Duke of Perth on whose land they lived was one of the Undertakers.
I posted 6. DYKER is a name largely confined to the same Perth, the Scottish landlord who owned the land the family tenanted in County Monaghan, came from
I don't mention that they were undertakers
so why are you requesting this info from me
I was wondering what land Perth, the Scottish landlord owned in County Monaghan to see if I can trace the Monaghan Dychers on my tree further......
That's why I was requesting this info from you!!
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back to Castlerabin aka Castleraghen aka Castlerahan aka castleraine where Richard dichare and
james dicher were
1 Sir William taffe castlerabin castlerahan mullogh
1000 Acres. Sir William Taaffe was the first patentee. Mullagh. He reports that Sir Thomas Ash, Knight, held these lands by the name of Mullogh and that there was an old castle newly repaired, but that all the Inhabitants were Irish.
2 sire Edmond phittilace caryyn maybe carnin
1000 Acres. Sir Edmond Phittilace was the first patentee. Carvyn. Sir Thos. Ash, Knight, also held this proportion on which was built a good bawne, of lime and stone 70 feet square, 12 feet high, with two flankers, but that all the land was inhabited with Irish.
3 Sir Thomas ash knight
750 Acres. Sir Thomas Ash and John Ash. Drumsheel On these lands was a bawne of clay and stone, and another of sods 120 feet square, and all the inhabitants were Irish.
4 lieutenant garth murmode maybe murm of Lurgan
500 Acres. Lieutenant Garth was the first patentee. Murmode. Upon this proportion Was a bawne of sods, and all the Inhabitants were Irish. Sir Thomas Ash, Knt. was in possession.
5 captain ridgeway lough rammor alias the manir of Chichester
1000 Acres. Capt. Ridgeway was the first patentee Logh-Rammor, alias the manor of Chichester. Captain Culme then held these lands, and a house 14 feet high, on which was a bawne of lime and stone 180 feet square. This bawne stood on a passage and was able to do good service, Captain Culme had conditioned to build a town called Virginia, for which he was allowed 250 acres: at that time, eight timber houses were built with English tenants, and there was a minister who kept a good school.
6 captain culme virginia town
1500 Acres. Captain Hugh Culme and Archibald Moore, Esq. Tullavin He reports that this was a place of great I strength, having a bawne and tower thoroughly finished, Mr. Moore and four English families dwelt there, the rest were Irish
7 sir john Elliot muckon
400 Acres -» On these lands was a Sir John Elliot, Knt. Muckon. On these lands was a bawne of lime and stone 60 feet square and a small house all the Inhabitants were Irish.
8 shane mcphilip orelie
anyone know if any of these 1-8 are Scottish
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hallmark just read that now but don't see a Scottish link
so I found this
Hi Simon, I am researching the McGruther name in Scotland.I hope what little I have on the Irish connection is of help to you.
The McGruder/McGruther etc name goes back to the 14th century in the Scottish records.They originally lived near Crieff on the land of the Drummonds, the Dukes of Perth where they were servants, chamberlains, tenants and latterly minor landholders in their own right.When the Drummonds said 'Jump', they jumped!
About 1600 - 1625 the Drummonds were amongst several Scottish nobility given the opportunity to settle dependants in the North of Ireland in County Monaghan and nearby.These servants, who were Episcopalians, were offered parcels of land of their own and thus given the opportunity to move from being tenants in Scotland to being landowners in their own right in Ireland.
I believe it highly probable ( I have not found records) that the McGruders were either pleased to take up this chance or coerced into it, and the name has since developed into McGrother in Ireland, just as it has become McGrouther, McGrewther, and McGruther etc in Scotland and Magruder in USA.
If you want to look for your immediate Irish ancestors, try County Monaghan.
Regards, Don
so don that's not what I have on record
what I have is that
in the early 1600s after queen Elizabeth died aka kinsale king james took over and he did request
About 1600 - 1625 the Drummonds were amongst several Scottish nobility given the opportunity to settle dependants in the North of Ireland in County Monaghan and nearby.These servants, who were Episcopalians, were offered parcels of land of their own and thus given the the opportunity to move from being tenants in Scotland to being landowners in their own right in Ireland.
They originally lived near Crieff on the land of the Drummonds, the Dukes of Perth where they were servants, chamberlains, tenants and latterly minor landholders in their own right.When the Drummonds said 'Jump', they jumped!
but don when they jumped they jumped to tyrone where john drummon from perth Scotland an undertaker took lands and if they went with him they settled 1600 1630s in tyrone
because colonel blayney and the earl of Essex had settled monaghan well before john Drummond got to tyrone and hallmark has given the list above but still I am to discover if its a welsh jig crossover to monaghan or if its a cross dycher over to tyrone so reeling on
1697 1697 The majority of Scots who migrated to Northern Ireland came as part of this organized settlement scheme of 1605-1697. Plantation settlements were confined to the Province of Old Ulster, in the Counties of Antrim, Down, Armagh, Tyrone, Donegal, Cavan, Fermanagh, and Londonderry. As many as 200,000 Scots crossed the North Channel to settle in Ulster in this approximately 90 year period. County Monaghan, although part of Old Ulster was not a Plantation county but it did receive Scots settlers in the 17th century as witness the First Monaghan Presbyterian Church in Monaghan Town which celebrated its Tercentenary in 1997. 1997-1897-1797-1697 300 years The Plantation of Ulster took place in two stages. The first stage was confined to the two eastern counties of Antrim and Down. The initiative was taken by Scottish fortune seekers.
but don further to confuse the issue
from the census 1901 1911 mcgruthers mcgrothers McGruder are to be found antrim down Dublin louth monaghan Westmeath
so maybe simons mcgrother connection may take him to monaghan where an Edward mcgrother was born circa 1861 but there again maybe antrim down Dublin louth and Westmeath might also be his link
Hi all
my surname is McGrother.
My family is from the north east of England, back to about 1860 when James and Catherine McGrother (still the same spelling), with a son Bernard, moved from Ireland to Middlesbrough.
Prior to that the trail goes cold. There were 2 other McGrother families in Middlesbrough at the 1881 census: Peter&Bridget with 7 kids and Mary with 2 daughters.
I do not know if my own family linked with these other 2, but all of Peter, Bridget and Mary were also born in Ireland, so it seems plausible they moved en masse.
My questions:
(a) does anyone know how to trace James, Catherine, etc back to Ireland? Where they came from? Their ancestors?
(b) Does anyone have a McGruther/McGruder/etc line that comes to a dead end in mid 19th century? Could be a name change to my line perhaps?
Thanks in advance
so as I cant message simon mcgrother to inform him of the above if you don happen to know his contact details you could contact him that's if he has not already accessed the above information
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I agree people were given the opportunity to settle dependants in Ireland....
"If they built a Bawn" etc etc which many didn't so land was given to others!!
Many just sold what they were given!
Between 1708 and 1785 the Drummonds certainly weren't registering Leases, in fact only 2 and these were by Mrs Urey in Tyrone!!
Even if one looks on the Drummond Pedigree there is only the one who bought Kesh Castle, who died without issue.
The Galway one
And the one in Dublin Castle....
0 leases granted by Perth!!
As for McGruther ... who is the earliest one found and who is the Landlord and Where??
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"...researching the McGruther name in Scotland and concluded that they came to Monaghan as settlers about 1625, as the Duke of Perth on whose land they lived was one of the Undertakers..
Where is the Source that the Duke of Perth was one of the Undertakers please?
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apologies to all
it looks like you timeline 1700 is out by 400 years
back to scotlands history you will have to go 1300ad
the bruces of scotland what do you know of the they might be your answer
1311ad eire louth john cadwelly charged that he stole a horse from the prior of s leonard of Dundalk and two horses from john Everard and clothes and other pelf to the value of 20s from wymark wife of henry le lung comes and defends etc William manne William de fertillagh roger germeyn Mathew broc Thomas morgan Thomas le blund of knocdonan hugh alger Richard alger gilbert parsoun William de galweye William above the milne and roger le dycher jurors say that john de cadwelly is not guilty and is not suspected etc therefore he quit and adam de fyngal a juror summoned come not therefore let him be in mercy
5 the gaelic irish cluster is located in the region of east central eire the Dublin to Dundalk and south ulster region which is known to have been settled by british migrants old English dicere a digger from dician to make a dyke or bank
1 dyker pronounced die ker scots from old English dicere a digger from dician to make a dyke or bank in Scotland a dyker is a builder of dry stone walls this surname is not common and is mainly confined to the Scottish northeast
7 summary
1 the y dna and surname evidence suggests the ancestral origin of the paternal ancestors was british not irish
2 re evaluation of the surname origin re deisear Scottish gaelic or deise irisg gaelic suggests the conflation of the occupational scots name dyker and the English name ditcher are more likely
3 the link to igi records covering the area from the firth of forth to the firth of moray where common Christian names are the same as those found in family records in ulster remains probable
5 the gaelic irish z251 cluster is located in the region of east central irlande which is known to have been settled by british migrants
7 the amh4 str match further reinforces the connection to Britain
8 the surname rarity supports the conflation hypothesis where records in ulster attest to both Scottish dyker and English dircher settlers
9 the connection of Shropshire in the welsh borders cannot be dismissed entirely because the ogap1 affinity applies equally to wales and the welsh borders
1315ad eadbhard 1 edward bruce eideard de brus brother of Robert the king of Scotland roibeirt de brus was invited to gaelic eire by the king of ulster domhnall o neill in hope that he would drive the englsih invaders out of eire as his brother had done in Scotland
1316ad may 1st eadbhard 1 edward bruce eideard de brus he was crowned king of gaelic eire under the title of eadbhard 1 or Edward 1 he set up his headquarters at Dundalk dun dealgain and there on the 1st may 1316 in the presence of the scotch and gaelic he was crowned king of gaelic eire after early successes at connor cells and arscoll near athy in county Kildare de brus failed to capture Dublin or limerick and was forced back north where he was killed at the battle of faughart in 1318 never having ruled the entire country while the battle raged a powerful English knight sir john de maupas rushed into the Scottish ranks sought out Edward bruce de brus with whom he engaged in single combat and both fell mortally wounded
1321ad dicher dycher peter William Mathew martin of the old town of the castle of Dundalk
1321ad circa William the miller grants to William de sydan and his heirs two acres of land and meadow with appurtenances in the tenement of the old town of the castle of Dundalk lying next in width between the land of Robert brun and helen the miller E east and the lands of john white albus and peter dicher W west and in length from the land of john tankard S south to the great water magnam aquam on the same vill N north for a certain sum of money to be paid to William the miller as a premium in gersuma to hold of the chief lord of the fee in two moieties at easter and Michaelmas for all service exaction and demand warranty sealed witnesses john tancard tobert de termynfehyn William de la ford roger de alnetoun john hendman and many others
1321ad circa William the miller grants to William sydan 1 acre of meadow in the tenement of the old town of the castle of Dundalk lying in breath between the meadow of elena the miller E east and the meadow of peter ie dicher W west and in length from grantors own land S south to the great water of the vill N for a sum of money paid down to hold of the chief lord for ever in fee and inheritance by a yearly rent of 2d in moieties at easter and Michaelmas warranty sealed witnesses john tancard john hendman Robert de termefehyn William de la forde roger de alnetoun and many others
1321 1322 john aboueyemille grants to ???? dicher and his heirs a frontage of land with appurtenances in …. Of Dundalk lying next between the land of Robert le ???? and the common path semitan of the said vill W west and the way ???? of the said adam N north to hold of the chief lords by die and accustomed service for all secular service exaction and demand ????? warranty sealed witnesses roger de ainetoun john hendman adam de termynfehyn dated at the town of old castle of Dundalk apud villain veteris castri Tuesday ??? 15 edward son of king Edward