RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Nottinghamshire => Topic started by: TylerGib on Thursday 28 March 13 16:14 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
Right my Nan Sarah M Lawe (using maiden names here) has a mum called Nellie Surgey Lawe.
However on my Nans marriage cert it reads that her Father is a James Lawe. Not possible. Nellie Surgey Lawe is a Lawe by blood, by her mum, so how can my Nan have this fellow down as her dad?
Im awaiting her birth cert to see if that helps me out, but failing that how can I, if its possible to find her actual Dad, or would I be up the proverbial creek without proverbial paddle?
March 1925 East Retford is shown on the registration record..
Ta muchly
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There are probably only 2 possibilities-
1) she was illegitimate and made up father's name for marriage certificate
2) her mother and father both had the same surname before they married
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Hi,I found her birth record on FindMyPast,and it says her Mothers maiden name was;Lawe.
Hope that helps!
Carly
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Also:
Births, December qtr 1911
Horncastle district vol 7a, page 960
Lawe, Nellie S
Mother's maiden name - Lawe
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Hello,
Sorry if there is some confusion here, I know that Nellie is a Lawe for Family Bible fact, but only by name, I found her proper Dad (not a Lawe) through investigation but will not go into details on that matter, but what I would like to know is, if my Nan (Sarah M Lawe) has a false Father on her Birth Cert too, much like her Marriage Cert, where would I to go on from then?
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Also:
Births, December qtr 1911
Horncastle district vol 7a, page 960
Lawe, Nellie S
Mother's maiden name - Lawe
I dont get this one at all :-\
Nellie S Lawe was born in 1887.....
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You're right (of course!).
I just got excited finding a birth for Nellie S Lawe!! :-[
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Your Nan's name - do you know what the middle initial 'M' stands for, is it possible her mother could have given her the surname of her father :-\
The birth KGarrad found in 1911 is it possible she may be the daughter of Nellie Surgey Lawe b1887 :-\
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Nellie Surgey Lawe is still single in 1911, and doesn't appear to get married until 1927 or 1930?
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Nellie Surgey Lawe is still single in 1911, and doesn't appear to get married until 1927 or 1930?
I don't think she married at all:
Deaths Dec qtr 1981 - LAWE, Nellie Surgey, 06 Oc 1887, Lincoln, 7/1711
The 1930 marriage you mention is probably the Nellie born in 1911.
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Class: RG12; Piece: 2598; Folio: 49; Page: 6; GSU
Ellen Surgey Lawe aged 3 living with Sarah Lawe her mother a widow and siblings , There's a Matthew Surgey lodging with them
Matthew Surgey dies in 1922 probate shows , leaving assets to his widow Sarah Ann Surgey
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A Matthew Surgey married a Sarah Ann West
Oct Qtr 1876 Leicester
7a
401
Margp
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This is going off topic without sounding harsh.
Ok, the problem does not lie with Nellie Surgey Lawe. I have all the info, facts, where and whens with this lady. The issue is with my Nan, Sarah M Lawe, her daughter born in East Retford 1925.
The James Lawe for her Dad on her marriage cert in 1945 CANNOT be her Dad. Nellie never married and I imagine the chance of two Lawes meeting are very slim.
So is there a way I could find out her actual Dad or would that be lost forever?
By the way her middle name is Marghrita or however you spell it, for the lady whom asked:-)
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Sometimes the way to answer a query is not straight-forward.
It's not impossible for a person to marry someone with the same surname (has happened numerous times in family trees I've researched) and that was why other avenues were explored.
You asked how Sarah could have put James Lawe down as her father on her marriage certificate and I gave you 2 simple reasons- the most likely is she was illegitimate. If so, you need to search for other sources that might list her father- baptismal record, etc. but if she simply made up the name then you might get no further in finding the truth.
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Just a long chance but what was Sarah,s grandfathers name.
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Sometimes the way to answer a query is not straight-forward.
It's not impossible for a person to marry someone with the same surname (has happened numerous times in family trees I've researched) and that was why other avenues were explored.
You asked how Sarah could have put James Lawe down as her father on her marriage certificate and I gave you 2 simple reasons- the most likely is she was illegitimate. If so, you need to search for other sources that might list her father- baptismal record, etc. but if she simply made up the name then you might get no further in finding the truth.
I also have 1st cousins with the same name marrying in my tree, it is always best to get birth certificate's first, then you have a basis to work from, as there may be 2 Nellie Surgey Lawe's it is possiable for either of them to be her mother
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Was her father " James Lawe" on the marriage cert. deceased?
I can find no death of a J L that fits, or a marriage. The only Lawe/ Lawe marriage was between a Francis and a Frances...
I would go with her being illigitimate. My great grandmother put her grandfather down as her father on her marriage.To avoid embarrassment, I am assuming!
You need to send for her 1925 birth certificate.....
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It's not impossible for a person to marry someone with the same surname (has happened numerous times in family trees I've researched) and that was why other avenues were explored.
My grandma was Rogers before she married in 1923 and Rogers after she married too ;D
She married a distant cousin!
The only way you will be able to tell who her father was purported to be is to view her 1925 birth cert.
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Hi,
If the fathers name on Nellies marriage is false it is because she didn't know who her father was because she was illegitimate. The birth certificate wont have a fathers name down if that was the case.
My own great grandfather was illegitimate and was married twice and put different fathers name down on both certificates.
So the answer to your question is no you wont be able to find out who the father was unless there is a maintenance order in court records.
Notsgirl1
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I mentioned earlier that the father might be listed in baptismal record- some clergy were quite careful to record the father in each and every baptism of an illegitimate child so one wonders if they made it a condition for performing the ceremony.
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In 1925 not so many children was christened or baptised, once TylerGib has a birth certificate and knows where their Nan was born we could check the records for them if Nottingham Archives have them.
Nottsgirl1
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Very often the parents' names and occupations on marriage certificates were fictional. All that I have read here convinces me that, like hundreds of other such instances we hear on Rootschat, the Nan was illegitimate.
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I lived in that general part of England (East Midlands/South Yorkshire ) for over 70 years, and in my experience the surname Law(e/s) was not that uncommon.The ONS site Surnames of England and Wales shows over 20,000 instances of Law and variants in 2002, so in an immediate area a marriage of 2 people named Law(e) is by no means unlikely.
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The thing here is that we seem to know that mother Nellie just plain did not marry. ;)
When a person's parents were not married, it was very common for them to make up a father's name for a marriage certificate. (The same was true for people who were using a false name when they married, as my gr-grfather and his sister did.)
There were standard reasons for the name given, some of which have been mentioned. It could have been:
- the name of the person's maternal grandfather
- the name of the person's maternal uncle or older brother
- the given name of the person's stepfather (mother's husband or partner) combined with the person's own surname
- the given name of the person's real father (if they knew it) combined with the person's own surname
- in the case of a man, his own name and occupation (making him a Jr following in the footsteps of a fictional Sr)
- a complete invention
The same applies if an occupation was stated: it could have been the real father or stepfather's occupation, regardless of how the name itself was concocted. Or, again, a complete invention. I don't think I saw the answer to what info was given in this case: an occupation or "deceased" ("deceased" being the easy out, especially if the person marrying was not telling their spouse the truth either).
The birth certificate is likely going to show a blank (and all else is pure speculation until you have it). Then it's a matter of searching for clues -- if there is a James with the right occupation in the vicinity or with some family or occupational connection with the mother or with her father, when the child was born, for instance.
Some mothers in this situation left clues and passed on information -- my great-aunt's middle name was the surname of the household where my gr-grmother was in service, as an example (and this was fairly common practice), and the story passed down by my grmother is that her sister's "father" was the son of the head of that household.
Without such clues ... it will likely indeed be paddle and creek time. ;)
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Wow thank you for replies you have given people.
Indeed Nellie never married. My mum remembers living at the given address on her Mums marriage cert. She said it was strange how her Nan, Nellie, got a massive 3 floored terrace for a peppercorn rent. I.e. next to faff all. She always thought that something was going off between her and the landlord. They were connected she seems to think to the florists T J Barker and Son up the road. But this is just speculation but a lead to follow non the less.
So thanks for the above post for all possibilities of reasons, I shall try to find a connection somewhere. Only a few days till the birth cert comes through.
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Well here we go,
I got Sarah Margherita Lawe (my Nan) birth cert through the other day. Father down as James Lawe, occupation is Mechanical Engineer. She was born at Tiln, Hayton, Nr Clarborough, East Retford.
Ihave done some searching on James but really coming up with much atm, is there anyone that could perhaps unearth something now?
And it it helps, it reads Nellie Surgey Lawe formally Lawe, which would suggest a marriage but not as far as my Mum is aware, but cripes, what she has been told has to be taken with a pinch of salt now....
Thanks
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What date? It's okay I've found it now!
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1st December 1925.... :)
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Hi,
Who was the informant on the birth certificate; the mother or the father?
Nanny Jan
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Mother was, Nellie Surgey Lawe
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It IS possible that James Lawe was using his second name ( or possibly decided to call himself James for whatever reason )
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I think that his name may well have been James and the job was correct,but she told everyone that his surname was Lawe and pretended to be married to him.
The family seem to come from Horncastle,so no one knew them in Retford and she could have kept up the pretence by saying that her hubby died int he war.
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Mother was, Nellie Surgey Lawe
Hmm....father could be an invention; I have a birth certificate for a distant family member where the mother's maiden name was the same as her married name. No marriage found, the child took the surname of mother's husband when she did marry.
Nanny Jan
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I think that his name may well have been James and the job was correct,but she told everyone that his surname was Lawe and pretended to be married to him.
The family seem to come from Horncastle,so no one knew them in Retford and she could have kept up the pretence by saying that her hubby died int he war.
That's possible too Carole , anything to appear to be 'correct' to folk
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I think that his name may well have been James and the job was correct,but she told everyone that his surname was Lawe and pretended to be married to him.
The family seem to come from Horncastle,so no one knew them in Retford and she could have kept up the pretence by saying that her hubby died int he war.
Thats true, my Mum and I cant figure out why Nellie moved from Horncastle area to 55, London Road, East Retford yet. Just dont know. Tis a shame that its all a bit convoluted really.
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Hi
There is a birth ?
Nellie S Lawe mmn Lawe
Horncastle (not THAT far up the road)
1911 Dec 7a 960
? ? ?
Ray
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Also:
Births, December qtr 1911
Horncastle district vol 7a, page 960
Lawe, Nellie S
Mother's maiden name - Lawe
I dont get this one at all :-\
Nellie S Lawe was born in 1887.....
As stated in my previous post, the one born in 1911, may be the mother, although not impossible for either of them to be her mother, one seems a bit young the other seems bit old, it all depends if the S is Surgey for the one in 1911
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The 1887 birth in Horncastle for Nellie Surgey Lawe, seems to coincide with the same lady on the 1901 census in Horncastle with her widowed mother Sarah. if you check the later census this becomes clearer.
The 1891 census is interesting
Sarah Lawe widow 46
Arthur Lawe son 15 deformed
Frank son 14
Edith dau 12
William Fred son 9
Nellie Surgey Lawe dau 3
Matthew Surgay lodger single 44 shoemaker.
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Ah, so what were saying here is...
That there COULD have been another Nellie S Lawe born in 1911 in Horncastle? That could be actually my Nans Mother?
Would the 1911 birth be after the 1911 Census then?
Im 100% sure that the 1887 Nellie Surgey Lawe birth is fact, no questions.
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Sarah is on the 1871 with her husband John Lawe a wheelwright
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Ah, so what were saying here is...
That there COULD have been another Nellie S Lawe born in 1911 in Horncastle? That could be actually my Nans Mother?
Would the 1911 birth be after the 1911 Census then?
Im 100% sure that the 1887 Nellie Surgey Lawe birth is fact, no questions.
Nellie b 1911 Dec Qtr, the census were taken March/April so no she would not show on the 1911 census
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The 1887 birth in Horncastle for Nellie Surgey Lawe, seems to coincide with the same lady on the 1901 census in Horncastle with her widowed mother Sarah. if you check the later census this becomes clearer.
The 1891 census is interesting
Sarah Lawe widow 46
Arthur Lawe son 15 deformed
Frank son 14
Edith dau 12
William Fred son 9
Nellie Surgey Lawe dau 3
Matthew Surgay lodger single 44 shoemaker.
Yep thats right. Matthew IS Nellie Surgey Lawes Dad. Obviously Sarah had him lodge for whatever reason, had Nellie in 1887, gave her Matthews surname and made out she was still a Lawe. Too much coincidence for that not to be fact, been as Sarah's Husband had died a few years previous.
No I did find a Percy James Marshall on 1911, 41 yrs, mechanical engineer at Clayworth Hall, a stones throw away from Hayton in Clarborough. Now he has had children that had died young and had servants so, could Nellie have had a dalliance with this fella?
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Sorry Jan, see you already posted the 1871 details.
The 1911 census would be before the birth of Nellie S Lawe
If the 1911 Nellie is the mother of your Sarah M, she would have only been 14 years old
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Girls were able to marry by law at the age 14, with there parents consent, so not to young to have a child
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Also the 1911 Nellie, if born of 1887 Nellie's mother Sarah, Sarah would be 66.
I think maybe that 1911 Nellie should be counted out....
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I do just think it would help us a little to know what you know about Nellie's parents.
From what I can figure out, her mother was Sarah, married (or not) to John Lawe. They are in the 1881 census (as Law) with these children (Emma is with them in the 1871 census):
Emma 10
Sarah 8
Cecilia 7
Arthur I. 5
Frank 4
Edith 2
The children who appear in the 1891 census with Sarah are:
Arthur 15
Frank 14
Edith 12
William Fred 9
However, the last child in the 1891 list, Nelley Surgey Lawe, aged 3, is the daughter of the lodger, Matthew Surgey. The inclusion of his surname as Nellie's second given name is a very common way of indicating the father of a child of unmarried parents.
Matthew Surgey was born in Arnold, Notts, and is in the 1851 and 1861 censuses with his parents Richard and Selina. (I had thought at first that Sarah Lawe was his younger sister, but finally sorted it out.) He was probably already married, the 1876 marriage mentioned earlier. (In 1881 he was in prison in Nottingham, age mistranscribed as 39 rather than 34 ... and that census actually lists the offence. Very probably he was estranged from his wife by then.)
Sarah (Lawe), Nellie's mother, is shown in the earlier censuses as being born in Staffordshire, and in 1901 as born in Warwickshire.
John Lawe was 33 in the 1881 census.
I suspect that he died in 1883, aged 35, in Lincoln reg dist (after the birth of Fred).
So Nellie's father was not a James or a Lawe or an engineer.
(Since, as has been discussed, children of unmarried parents sometimes named their maternal grandfather as father when they married, it is useful to rule out Nellie's father as the person Sarah was alluding to when she married.)
Nellie's father was Matthew Surgey, a shoemaker.
Nellie's mother's first husband/partner was John Lawe, a wheelwright.
Nellie Surgey Lawe was not in fact a Lawe by birth, to all appearances.
She was a Lawe by birth registration, since she was registered in the surname of her mother's husband/partner.
But she was really a Surgey, by father Matthew Surgey, and whatever her mother Sarah's birth surname was -- if you have Nellie's birth certificate, you know what parents' names are on the certificate. Since there appears to be no John Lawe + Sarah marriage, if you have Sarah's birth surname, you can maybe determine whether she was married before meeting John Lawe (she was older than him).
This isn't "going off topic", it's relevant info! ;)
This "James Lawe" is named consistently on Sarah's birth and marriage certificates, though, so there has to be some clue hidden in that information. I suspect the given name James and possibly even the occupation are correct.
The 1921 census, by which time the man in question would likely have been in the occupation in question -- and Nellie may have been living with him -- may provide an answer!
Aargh, I see while I've been doing this, much has been posted.
I'm still going to add it as a summing up!
PS -- I would think the Nellie S Lawe born in 1911 was a first child of Nellie S Lawe born in 1887. The 1911 Nellie married in Basford reg dist in 1930, it had seemed. It could be worthwhile to get that 1911 birth certificate.
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Yes Marg, I realised this as soon as I had posted, still very young though....
It seems There is a Matthew Surgey in her Majestys prison Nottingham on the 1881 census and the "crime" is listed as " bastardy" he is a shoe rivetter
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Bingo!!
All that above post is correct. Nellie is a Lawe by Mother's married name to John Lawe (I have seen it written down in our Family Bible), and is in fact a Surgey by all intents and purposes.
And Nellies mother was named Sarah Faulkner, Father a Tapeweaver in Tamworth, Staffs, called William.
However, has any one had a chance to look over the Clayworth Hall fella, I posted above???
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It would have been really useful to have all the info I collected, and others have posted pieces of, right at the start ...
Percy J Marshall born c1869 died in Gainsborough district in 1923, so he can't account for Sarah's birth. Aside from seeming a bit of a stretch!
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As it was suggested earlier in this thread before you recieved the certificate, I think the next thing you should do is look for a baptism for Sarah - starting with Hayton parish church. It could provide more information about her parents, and might perhaps confirm if she was illegitimate.
Another avenue to explore is electoral rolls, now you know where Nellie was living in 1925. It might show if she was living with anyone named James. They would be held at the Nottingham Archives.
Alexander
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I see you know the marriage of Sarah Faulkner and John Lawe?
March quarter 1870, Caistor.
A postem was recently added noting that his name was LAWE (not Lowe).
If the transcription is incorrect, I hope you submitted a correction to FreeBMD.
Also, if you add another postem with an email address, you could be contacted by anyone else searching for those people.
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There really is too much time between 1911 and 1925 to hope to identify Sarah's father in 1911.
I would suggest you also look at this birth:
Helen C Lawe, mother Lawe
Sept quarter 1916, Leicester reg dist
followed by this marriage:
Helen C Lawe + Leslie W Jackson-Wynch (Leslie W J Wynch)
June quarter 1942, East Retford
(1 birth to the marriage)
Helen Cecelia Wynch born 1916 died 1995, Lincoln.
(Husband died 1993, Loughborough.)
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There really is too much time between 1911 and 1925 to hope to identify Sarah's father in 1911.
I would suggest you also look at this birth:
Helen C Lawe, mother Lawe
Sept quarter 1916, Leicester reg dist
followed by this marriage:
Helen C Lawe + Leslie W Jackson-Wynch (Leslie W J Wynch)
June quarter 1942, East Retford
(1 birth to the marriage)
Helen Cecelia Wynch born 1916 died 1995, Lincoln.
Yep thats my Mums Aunt. She was down as another witness on Sarah and William's marriage cert in 1945.
Well im off to the Retford Library on Saturday, hopefully they will have some electoral roll records to muse at, the help people are throwing at me here is unbelievable tho, thank you!
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But "finding" and telling you things you know isn't really helpful!
So you knew Nellie was in Leicester in 1916 ... and had a child. And you know the child's named father - ? (Since there is living family of that child, I wouldn't put that info here.)
Do you know her child, and does the child know anything about their grandmother Nellie?
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Tyler check with the library as I think I saw a notice to say they were having the decorators in and the studies room would be closed for a few weeks
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But "finding" and telling you things you know isn't really helpful!
So you knew Nellie was in Leicester in 1916 ... and had a child. And you know the child's father - ?
Do you know her child, and does the child know anything about their grandmother Nellie?
Trust me it is helpful! When you know very very little because one lady wont ever, has never spoken about a few people, and people now 60yrs on know their Dad because of kind help on here, it helps! ;D
Nope. I only knew that she was my Mums Aunt when she told me about 3 weeks ago, it wasnt an avenue that i had traveled yet. Would it be worth getting hold of a copy of her birth cert then?
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Tyler check with the library as I think I saw a notice to say they were having the decorators in and the studies room would be closed for a few weeks
Haha yeah, when I went in two weeks back to join up and go to local studies room, i was informed they would be shut up there till 2 April!! Couldn't believe it! But its only a 5 min walk if its still "closed".
Ta for heads up tho!
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I am not sure if you have this Baptist Record
Nellie Surgey Law
2 Nov 1890
Horncastle Lincoln
Mother Sarah Law
Margp
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Do you know you can access the newpaper's through Nottinghamshire libraries, just need to put in your card number.http://infotrac.galegroup.com/itweb/ntm_ttda
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I am not sure if you have this Baptist Record
Nellie Surgey Law
2 Nov 1890
Horncastle Lincoln
Mother Sarah Law
Margp
What type of record is it? One thing for sure, being Baptist it isn't an infant baptism.
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I am not sure if you have this Baptist Record
Nellie Surgey Law
2 Nov 1890
Horncastle Lincoln
Mother Sarah Law
Margp
What type of record is it? One thing for sure, being Baptist it isn't an infant baptism.
Christening Record then
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Trust me it is helpful! When you know very very little because one lady wont ever, has never spoken about a few people, and people now 60yrs on know their Dad because of kind help on here, it helps! ;D
Nope. I only knew that she was my Mums Aunt when she told me about 3 weeks ago, it wasnt an avenue that i had traveled yet. Would it be worth getting hold of a copy of her birth cert then?
What I mean is: what is really helpful is you telling us what you know already! -- especially when it is about an earlier child of the same mother as your Sarah's.
Yes, I would get both birth certificates:
Nellie Lawe 1911
Helen Lawe 1916
We know that Helen 1916 was Nellie's child, and it seems highly likely that Nellie 1911 was too.
So it would be worth knowing what information was reported re their father(s).
Their marriage certificates would also be interesting, as long as we're spending other people's money. ;)
... Actually I don't think there is a marriage for the 1911 Nellie; the 1927 and 1930 marriages don't have middle names, although they are still possible.
A Nellie Lawe married Hazelwood in Horncastle in 1927. Can't really identify a death or remarriage for her.
A Nellie Lawe married Nash in Birmingham in 1930. Name is way too common to identify a death.
Those are the only two Nellie Lawe marriages in the index.
There appear to be no births to either marriage.
- edit - I was spelling Hazlewood wrong - but no more luck identifying a death for her or husband or any births
But apart from the two Nellie S Lawe births, there is only one Nellie Lawe birth: 1895 Pontefract.
Of course, the Nellie(s) who married could have been Lawe by marriage, but there is no Nellie + Lawe marriage either.
Getting the exact date of birth for Nellie 1911 could find a death for her, if she died after 1969. I might wonder whether she was given up at birth and renamed ...
The 1921 census can't come soon enough for some of us!
I think MargP just mistyped "baptist" for "baptism" ;) So there is no father named on the baptism record ...
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Thanks Janey
Another OAP moment
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I was going to set about finding Helen's child for you, which should have been easy given the uncommon name. Very unfortunately, the child died in 1989, aged only 55.
I have found you contact info for one of that child's children and will PM the info.
Since Helen was your grandmother's (half?) sister (both were daughters of Nellie Surgey Lawe), that person is your (half?) first cousin.
- edit! - your parent (daughter of Sarah 1925) and the child of Helen 1916 are first cousins.
You and Helen's grandchild are (half?) second cousins.
You share Nellie Surgey Lawe 1887 as your great-grandmother.
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I deleted my post .as I hadn't seen the info I had originally put had already been posted
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Percy J Marshall born c1869 died in Gainsborough district in 1923, so he can't account for Sarah's birth. Aside from seeming a bit of a stretch!
Janey found that earlier tonight ;D
There's so much info to read here isn't there?
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I keep the "Print" version of the thread open alongside when it gets unwieldy. ;)
That way you can do a "find" in the whole thread to see who what when where has been posted earlier!
edit to Deirdre to avoid even more posts! -- I read the hint here once, so just passing it on! :)
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I keep the "Print" version of the thread open alongside when it gets unwieldy. ;)
That's really helpful ;D thanks for the hint (fascinating topic too).
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I hope I have this right and its not another OAP moment
Do we think that Nellie Surgey Lawe b 1887 had 3 children
Nellie S Lawe b 1911
Helen Lawe b 1916
Sarah M Lawe b 1925
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Nellie S Lawe b 1911
Helen Lawe b 1916
Sarah M Lawe b 1925
That's how I'm seeing it -- Tyler recently learned that Helen 1916 was his mother's aunt -- and I just noticed that Nellie 1887 had a sister named Cecelia, which was Helen's middle name.
and I can't think of how Nellie 1911 could be anyone else's child -- unless a brother (or sister) of Nellie 1887 named a child for her ... but it would seem rather odd for one of them to pass on the "Surgey" name that was hers only.
Sister Cecilia married 1900 in Leicester. That was where Helen was born, so perhaps Nellie was with her sister at the time. Cecilia had two children in Leicester in 1911 and 1915, surname Southwell.
It's unlikely a father is named on either child's birth certificate, of course, unless Nellie invented her James Lawe early on and stuck with him! and that would be worth knowing, whether or not she did, as it would date the invented James Lawe to either before Sarah's birth or not.
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I am not sure if you have this Baptist Record
Nellie Surgey Law
2 Nov 1890
Horncastle Lincoln
Mother Sarah Law
Margp
What type of record is it? One thing for sure, being Baptist it isn't an infant baptism.
Christening Record then
Sorry Marg, they don't do Christenings either. The only things it might be are an adult Baptism (by total immersion) or, and only some congregations do this, which is why I asked, a birth record, or what is known as a "cradle roll" in the church. Which it is makes a considerable difference in the date involved.
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I am not sure if you have this Baptist Record
Nellie Surgey Law
2 Nov 1890
Horncastle Lincoln
Mother Sarah Law
Margp
What type of record is it? One thing for sure, being Baptist it isn't an infant baptism.
Christening Record then
Sorry Marg, they don't do Christenings either. The only things it might be are an adult Baptism (by total immersion) or, and only some congregations do this, which is why I asked, a birth record, or what is known as a "cradle roll" in the church. Which it is makes a considerable difference in the date involved.
Here is the record, let us know what it is, she was born in 1887
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NFQG-GXR
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Unfortunately it states that there is no image available so it is impossible to be sure. I would also be surprised if the LDS were highly familiar with the practices of the Baptist Church, so without the image there can be no conclusion. It will either be a birth record (cradle roll) or adult Baptism, with a birth probably 14 years earlier if it is a Baptism. Most of my mother's relatives were Baptist, it don't make it easy!!
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I am not sure if you have this Baptist Record
... Sorry Marg, they don't do Christenings either.
RR, as I tried to explain -- MargP simply mistyped BAPTISM as BAPTIST.
It is a BAPTISM record. Baptism = christening.
There is no BAPTIST involved here.
What the BAPTISM record shows is that no father was named. The info provided by MargP is therefore quite helpful (since an absence of evidence is still evidence -- that the child's parents were apparently unmarried!).
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Sorry!!I am obviously thicker than usual on this one :( :( Put it down to my age. Senior momemnts.
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I've just come up with another possibility for the identity of Nellie S Lawe born 1911 Horncastle. ;)
Nellie 1887's oldest (half) sister was Emma, born 1870.
Emma evidently had several children with either Charles Stones or his son, in whose household she was a servant. Two of the children, Florence and Harry, had surname Lawe with middle name Stones. (There were also twins after them, one of whom survived.)
Nellie S Lawe born 1911 Horncastle could be Nellie Stones Lawe, a daughter of Emma Lawe 1870 and thus a (half) niece of our Nellie 1887. Nellie 1911 is likely the one who married George W Hazlewood in 1930 in Horncastle, but I've still had no luck identifying a death for her (and there seem to have been no children of the marriage).
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This does seem at least possible.
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It looks good to me Janey, I think that the 1911 BC will sort this out
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You mean the birth I mentioned in reply #4?! ;D ;D :-X
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Yes, KG, that birth; it's right there in the GRO index on a search for all Nellie Lawe events, and it continued to be discussed through the thread. And I, for one, was fairly persuaded the 1911 birth must have been a first child of Nellie Surgey Lawe 1887 -- but as you see, I think there is a more likely possibility: the 1911 birth (and 1930 marriage) was actually a Nellie Stones Lawe, a child of Nellie Surgey Lawe's eldest sister Emma and her partner Mr Stones.
I had sent Tyler a PM with info about living family (also descended from Nellie Surgey Lawe) and in the course of that, looked at all the very few "Nellie Lawe" events and Lawe-in-Horncastle events in the GRO index (cross-referencing to 1911 census), and twigged to the possible Emma/Stones connection.
If the 1911 birth was Nellie Stones (not Surgey) Lawe, it would certainly rule her out as the mother of Sarah 1925.
The birth certificate is still the only thing that will say for sure. ;)
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That 1911 cenus for Emma says an awful lot ! ;)
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Heh, doesn't it just! I hadn't looked at the image before; there seems to have been some intra-household disagreement there. ;) Or perhaps a disapproving enumerator who went by the book.
It does suggest that Sarah 1925 may have had some cousins, anyhow. It's just the names may be problematic ...
Of Emma's children:
Harry Stones (not Lawe) born Oct 1906 died 1986 Horncastle.
He married Lucy E Wright 1935 Horncastle.
And possibly the pattern continues ;) ... a Stones-Stones birth in Horncastle in 1923 with a name connected to Emma's family.
Walter Lawe/Stones (death registered under both surnames) born c1908 died 1930 Horncastle.
Charles Alfred Lawe born Jan 1910 died 1999 Boston.
Of Nellie 1887's other siblings:
Frank E Lawe married 1916 Grimsby, with births (twins seem to be in the family).
Frank Edward Lawe born 1893 died 1975 Bridlington.
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I shall get on that tomoro with regards to the birth cert for 1911 Nellie. See, if had looked at info on the other siblings for 1887, I probably could have suggested the idea about Emmas' children but with so much going on with it all I just hadnt got around to that route yet.
Still I cant thank everyone enough with their inputs, no matter how little or large!
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There are so many things to look at and routes for getting to them -- I just happened to do the search for all Lawe events in Horncastle at FreeBMD (because there are so few of them, pretty much all related) and noticed the ones with middle name Stones, and poked into the 1911 census for them ... and it took me a while to smack my forehead and think "Nellie S" ... "Stones". ;)
I note that her youngest children pre-1911 weren't registered with the Stones name (Walter & Fred, Charles -- although Walter apparently used that surname). So it's still a matter of only the certificate will tell!
There does seem to be some naming of children for the parent's siblings going on, though (one of my families did that consistently and it's what cracked a huge mystery for me), so it could make sense that Emma would have a Nellie.
Their brother Arthur John Lawe had died in 1907, and their brother Frank had a son named Arthur John Lawe for him in 1910.
Right, I got muddled right there. Brother Frank was born 1876 and married 1906, so he isn't the Frank Edward 1893 I was on about ... that Frank was born in Horncastle and, rats, was a visitor in someone else's household in Wildmore in 1901, so he may well be one of Emma's too, named for her brother ... or of eldest sister Sarah, who married Francis Cook in 1894 and lived in East Retford reg dist ... another connection for how Nellie ended up in that location (and their mother Sarah Faulkner Lawe (Surgey) died in that district).
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Nellie 1887 we know was living at 55 London Road when Sarah M Lawe was born in Dec 1924. And also Hayton (for Helen Cecelia birth) in 1916. Hayton is what 3-4 miles away from Retford tops. So we know she was in the area bit before that date. Will Retford library have the electoral rolls to find this traceability out? It was still shut yesterday.
Would any info on Francis Cooke help in matters on how Nellie came to Retford? God im gonna have a busy week next week before my late shift....
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Francis Cook (husband of Sarah Lawe, sister of Nellie 1887) was born in South Ormsby so he doesn't seem to be useful in that regard.
Here's something possibly useful, though -- in 2010, somebody corrected his 1901 census record at Anc'y. Apparently it originally said "South Ormsby, Russia". One can only sigh. I hate when people correct records and don't indicate whether they are actually related, but you can always try to make ocntact and ask. The birthplaces of some of their children have been corrected, too. The youngest child (another Arthur) was born in Cawthorne, Yorkshire, so they had just recently arrived in West Retford in 1901.
It does look as though eldest sister Sarah might be the vector for the move to that area -- and perhaps mother Sarah moved to be with her when she got to be in need of care. Francis Cook her husband was a horseman on a farm in 1901 and later a shepherd; the moves may have been employment related.
I can't spot the 1893 Frank Lawe in 1911 (and of course I wouldn't tell you what it said if I could!).
I'm too foreign to know much about old electoral rolls. They have to be checked by address in the originals, as they are not indexed at all.
The 1911 census has some addresses on London Road/Rd, East Retford, but most don't have street numbers at that time. I suspect 55 was new build after that date. Google maps has both 55 London Rd and 55 Old London Rd in East Retford at present.
edit - a half dozen people have Francis Cook 1864 South Ormsby in their Ancestry trees (I use Mundia.com for faster free access / searches / messaging), but no one has him beyond his childhood.
So your Sarah 1925 had cousins born in the early 1890s. My mother's father born c1900 was the same, cousins born more than 30 years earlier -- I have met a descendant of one born in the 1860s who is nearly 70 years old and is the same generation as my 14-yr-old niece. ;)
Unfortunately, it means that the generations of her aunts' and uncles' families who would have known the older ones are all long deceased now.
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Sometimes the way to answer a query is not straight-forward.
It's not impossible for a person to marry someone with the same surname (has happened numerous times in family trees I've researched) and that was why other avenues were explored.
You asked how Sarah could have put James Lawe down as her father on her marriage certificate and I gave you 2 simple reasons- the most likely is she was illegitimate. If so, you need to search for other sources that might list her father- baptismal record, etc. but if she simply made up the name then you might get no further in finding the truth.
This probably happened quite a lot. My gt.gt.grandparents were both Oliver's but one line originated in Tanfield which is North Durham and the other were Bishopwearmouth Oliver's.
I suppose that it is also possible for names to get made up. My mother worked for then bought a grocery business begun by Lou Whorwood who became a long time family friend. The name of his business was LAWES Butchers, made up from his name and he later opened the grocery shop also called LAWES next door. Locals knew him as Mr. Lawe.
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Not sure if this is worth a mention, but Francis Cook on 1911 census is with Sarah and a raft of children, living at Tiln, Retford, Notts. Which is where Sarah Lawe b.1924 is down as being born...
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I don't know if this helps at all (may even confuse more) but I have just been looking thro some information on the village of clarborough (just up the road from Tiln)
On the lists for 1911 census index I found a J. Surgey with address The Black Woman public house Clarborough. Very strange as the pub was what we were looking at when I gathered all the info.
Barbara
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Not yet had chance to Further look up the above post but....
I have got two more birth certs.
First off, the Nellie S Lawe born 1911, Horncastle, is that of Emma Lawe. The S. is for Stones, so plausable that its between Joseph and not the elder fella.
Then on to Helen Cecilia. She was born in Leicester, of Nellie Surgey Lawe (which we knew) dressmaker, however no father down at all. So the James Lawe of my Nans birth cert looks to be "just for her".
No all I need to do is try and figure out Nellies reason and whens for moving to Tiln/Hayton/East Retford area, and try to distinguish this "James Lawe" fella from that.
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I don't know if this helps at all (may even confuse more) but I have just been looking thro some information on the village of clarborough (just up the road from Tiln)
On the lists for 1911 census index I found a J. Surgey with address The Black Woman public house Clarborough. Very strange as the pub was what we were looking at when I gathered all the info.
Barbara
Now I'm a bit confused with localities. My grandmother Harriet Grant was orphaned when she was 5 years old. She appears as age 12 in the 1881 census at Grove Lane, Clarborough, living with a Mary Morris whom we believe to be an aunt. When I search for this in Google Maps they come up with an aerial shot of Retford showing Grove Lane running east from Retford and far into the countryside. Clarborough is well to the north of the far end of Grove Lane.
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Don't know whether this helps pin down the locality, but there is (was?) a signalbox on the Sheffield to Lincoln line via Retford in the East part of Retford, near where the steam loco depot was named Clarborough Junction, and Clarborough tunnel is a little further east still.
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No all I need to do is try and figure out Nellies reason and whens for moving to Tiln/Hayton/East Retford area, and try to distinguish this "James Lawe" fella from that.
Nellie 1887's mother Sarah Lawe died in East Retford reg dist in 1927 - very soon after your nan was born there. I forget - do you have the 1927 death cert? For comparing addresses with your nan's birth certificate.
It just strikes me that mother Sarah quite likely went to live with her daughter Sarah Cook and family, as one logical reason for settling there. She was 82 when she died so would have been needing help by then, probably. And younger unmarried daughter Nellie 1887 went with her. ;)
Actually, Nellie was a single mum by then and had been for a while. It does look, though, like she was living with one older sister when she had Helen in Leicester and then shifted to the other sister where she had your nan. Maybe mother Sarah was with her in both places too.
Of course it isn't actually like Nellie was a sprout at the time - she was nearly 40 when she had your nan. But she was pretty much the baby of the family still.
Just for info, Francis Cook (husband of Nellie's sister Sarah) died in East Retford in 1952, aged 88. There are several Sarah Cook deaths there ... maybe 1942 aged 69, or 1951 aged 78? (she was born c1871)
We get the 1921 Canadian census in 2 years or so, I think. No such luck for you!
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Way back quite a few areas came under the parish or Clarborough until they split the parish in the early 1900's. It is not far from clarborough to Retford, about 3-3.5 miles at he most. From the last houses on Retford to the first in Clarborough no more than two miles.
Barbara