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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Pembrokeshire => Topic started by: Deirdre784 on Saturday 30 March 13 23:21 GMT (UK)
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Trying to work backwards from my 3* great grandmother, who died as Ann Owen in Llanhowell in Feb 1873 aged 77. Not knowing the area makes it hard to know how close places are and whether or not any records are possible so I would be really grateful for advice on the following please.
Ann’s daughter Ann Thomas (b 1833 in Mathry) married John Owen (no relation to mother-in-law Ann as far as I know) in Aug 1852 in Haverfordwest, naming William Thomas (labourer) as her father. It doesn’t say so on the marriage cert but William had died, and Ann had already lost her second husband John Owen, who died in 1849.
OrielBenfro found John’s will in reply no 6 in the related topic http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,584657.0.html
So, looking for a John Owen marriage to an Ann Thomas (a widow) I’ve found one in Llandeloy on 12 March 1839, naming Ann’s father as Lewis Morris.
Ann’s birth place is given as St David’s (or just Pembrokeshire) in about 1794 in the censuses and I’ve found a baptism for ‘Ann, daughter of Lewis Morris and Mary his wife of St David’s’ on 17 Jan 1794.
I’ve then found banns, but no wedding so far, of Anne Morris and William Thomas at Llanrhian in June/July 1818 (though the children I believe to be theirs were born around 1828 (John), 1832 (Margaret) and 1833 (Ann), which seems a longtime after the wedding, though maybe there were earlier children too).
And a burial for William Thomas, aged 35, in Jan 1833, abode Tredel (which daughter Margaret gives as her birthplace in 1891 (says Mathry or Llanhowell in other censuses).
So I have:
1874 (Jan): Ann Morris baptised in St David’s (daughter of Lewis and Mary)
1818 (Jul): Anne Morris married William Thomas in Llanrhian
1828: Son John born (says Mathry in 1851 census)
1831: Daughter Margaret born (Mathry/Llanhowell/Tredel in various censuses)
1833 (Jan): Husband 1 William Thomas buried in Mathry (abode Tredel)
1833: Daughter Ann born (Mathry) - my 2* great g'mother
1839 (Mar): Ann Thomas (widow) married John Owen in Llandeloy (see attached - can't make out the residences - any ideas?)
1849 (Nov): Husband 2 John Owen buried in Llanhowell (abode Treglemes)
1852 (Aug): Daughter Ann married John Owen (Haverfordwest register office - have cert)
1853 (Aug): Grand-daughter Jane born at Treglemesh (my great g'mother - have cert)
1855 (Aug): Daughter Ann buried in Croesgoch (with her baby daughter Elizabeth, aged 14 days)
1873 (Feb): Ann died at Treglemais, buried at Croesgoch
Grateful for any views on how possible this scenario is, particularly the weddings, and any other possible children for Ann(e) and William - thanks for reading.
Happy Easter everyone.
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PS This (in the 1841 census) looks like the same place as Ann's residence at the time of the wedding..
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14th July 1818 William Thomas mrd Anne Morris at Llanrhian.
Lewis Morris mrd Mary Arnold at St Davids in 1791
Lewis Morris mrd Mary Patrick at St Davids in 1802
Did you find any relevant info in the will of Lewis Morris of Llanhowell SD -1834/062, there are plenty of Arnold wills that may be informative.
Rgds
Owen Ap Benfro
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Thanks Owen,
Having posted this last night - thrilled that I had possibly found Ann's maiden name, first husband and her parents - I spent a few more fascinating hours looking through Pembs parish records.
I found the Lewis Morris to Mary Arnold marriage in St David’s in 1791, and possible burials for them in Llanhowell..
- Lewis Morris 1833 (70, Treglemais)
- Mary Morris 1842 (84, Treglemais)
I then looked for the baptisms of Lewis Morris (didn't find anything) and Mary Arnold and found one for Mary on 7 March 1761, daughter of David and Elinor Arnold… then siblings Thomas (1758), William (1756), Ann (1754) and Elizabeth (1751).
Suddenly saw the clock change on the computer, not at midnight but at 1am so it was then 2am ::) so thought I'd better go to bed... After a busy family day today, I've just got back to the computer and seen your message, many thanks.
I hadn't seen the 2nd Lewis Morris marriage, so the burial I found may well be the 2nd wife (Mary Patrick), though it is a good age match for the Mary Arnold baptism.
Having gone to bed my mind was still buzzing, and then I rememered that I might find a will, but decided against coming back downstairs! Will look for that now - thanks for the reference, looks like I may well have found the right burial.
Where did you find the Llanrhian 1818 marriage (as I can only find banns on FindMyPast)?
While this really early info looks great (I never expected to get back to baptism or christening entries written as these are), should I be concerned about the 1818 marriage and no children until 1828, or as I can't find any baptism records for John, Margaret and Ann that there could be earlier children too. But where are any of them in 1841 if Anne and her second husband John are at Llandeloy?
Plenty more exploring to do, wills first though, thanks again Owen,
Deirdre
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Found the Lewis Morris will (thanks again Owen), confirmed death at Treglemais Vach, Llanhowell, 2 marriages, children Anne from the first and Mary and Ebenezer from his 2nd. ;D
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I think the addresses(still current) are:-
Vagw(y)r Walter - postcode SA62 5LP
Perche SA62 6LW
Regards
Roger
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Thanks Roger,
According to g**gle, the postcodes are nearly 10 miles away from each other. If they still exist - which is amazing - do you know if they are houses or farms?
Deirdre
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Apologies,there was a typo in my reply,Vagwr Walter is SA62 6LP.OS maps can be viewed at www.old-maps.co.uk using the postcodes as search terms.There is also a drop down list of historical equivalent maps.I'll have a look at Google Earth for the properties.
Regards
Roger
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Thanks Roger, just found it! They both come up as current properties on 192.com as well (though I've not got any current credits to see the details).
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But where are any of them in 1841 if Anne and her second husband John are at Llandeloy?
Just found children John and Ann in 1841 with mum Anne and step-dad John at Llandeloy (Pershe). Indexes only showed John and Anne Owen, but the children John and Ann Thomas are there in the same place if you look at the record. Guess the other daughter Margaret was a servant elsewhere, though Margaret Thomas is like looking for a needle in a haystack so will leave that ::)
Still no luck looking for their baptisms or any older children for William and Anne Thomas. :(
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Can't edit my first post but noticed a typo in my timeline ::)
1874 (Jan): Ann Morris baptised in St David’s (daughter of Lewis and Mary)
This should be:
1794 (Jan): Ann Morris baptised in St David’s (daughter of Lewis and Mary)
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Having found a number of baptism records for several other rootschatters in the last week, I've come to the conclusion that the John, Margaret and Anne Thomas I’m looking for were never baptised (was that unusual), or am I missing some parishes?
In summary, William Thomas and Ann(e) Morris were married in July 1818 in Llanrhian, and William died in Jan 1833 in Mathry (abode Tredel). The children I know of, John (1828), Margaret (1831) and Ann(e) Thomas (1833), are all recorded in censuses as being born in Mathry or Llanhowell (Margaret says Tredel one year).
I've looked through all the baptism records for Llanrhian and Mathry and found:
Llanrhian - Stephen (baptised on 3 Jan 1819, born to a William & Anne Thomas of Porthiddy, William a labourer) but no other children for the couple;
Mathry - David, baptised 1 April 1821 to what looks like William & Ann, of Persche(?), William a labourer; and William, baptised 13 April 1823 to William & Anne, of Cwmbadau(?), William a labourer;
I’ve also looked through all the registers for Llanhowel and Llandeloy (very few baptisms in either parish from 1818 to 1833, none to a William and Anne Thomas) and Llanreithan (2 to William and Anne Thomas of Treiskaw, William a farmer: Richard, baptised on 25 Jan 1818 (before the wedding) and Jane on 12 Dec 1819). As the first baptism was before the wedding I’m assuming this is not my William and Anne.
So Stephen, David and William could be older siblings of John, Margaret and Anne, but I’ve still not found their baptisms. Should I be looking for other parishes?
Also, Anne was living at ‘Persche’ in Llandeloy when she married her second husband John Owen in 1839 and they were living there in the 1841 (see first post and reply no 1). Could this be the same Pershe as the 1821 baptism in Mathry… see attachment.
All ideas welcome.
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Apologies in advance for the long post, but two recent ‘finds’ have added info to the above ...
I’ve found the baptism of Margaret Thomas, on 27 Mar 1831, at the Welsh Calvinistic chapel in Trevine (daughter of William and Anne Thomas, nee Morris, abode Tredel). That was exciting and I hoped I’d find the other children too, including Ann(e) my gg grandmother. Browsing the records I came across an Ebenezer Thomas, born 20 March 1825, baptised 1 May 1825, son of William and Anne Thomas, nee Morris (I can’t read the abode unfortunately), but the bride’s previous parish appears to match the record for Margaret. But the same register, covering 1811 to 1837, doesn’t have baptism records for John or Ann(e). And I can’t find anything else on Ebenezer.
And then I found the will of Anne Owen, of Treglemesfach, written in October 1863. It’s quite hard to read but leaves everything to her daughter Margaret and grand-daughter Jane. But, if Jane dies before coming of age her share is to be divided equally between ‘my children Stephen Thomas, Margaret Thomas and John Thomas my grandson, the son of William Thomas, my son.’ Bizarrely (to me anyway) a codicil was then added, Anne changing her will in 1869 giving Jane’s share (should she die before coming of age) to ‘my son in law John Owen’ (ie Jane’s father) and declaring that ‘the above mentioned Stephen Thomas and John Thomas have no claim to any of my property (whatever) after my departure’.
So Anne doesn’t mention her sons John or Ebenezer (would that suggest that they’d died as had her daughter Ann(e)), but does mention sons Stephen and William, and grandson John – again by including grandson John is it likely that his father William had died?
So Stephen and William could be the baptisms referred to in reply 11. Perhaps David is theirs but had died too. I think I’ve enough evidence to confirm that it is all the same family, though I was unsure initially. Is the mix of religions unusual?
Timeline updated to include the possible additions to the family...
1818 (14 Jul): Llanrhian, Anne Morris married William Thomas
1819 (3 Jan): Llanrhian, baptism of Stephen, son of William & Anne Thomas of Porthiddy, William a labourer
1821 (1 April): Mathry, baptism of David, son of William & Ann Thomas, of Persche, William a labourer;
1823 (13 April): Mathry, baptism of William, son of William & Anne Thomas, of Cwmbadau(?), William a labourer;
1825 (1 May): Welsh Calvinistic chapel in Trevine, baptism of Ebenezer Thomas, son of William and Anne Thomas, nee Morris
1828: Son John born (says Mathry in 1851 census); no baptism found
1831: (27 Mar): Welsh Calvinistic chapel in Trevine, baptism of Margaret, daughter of William and Anne Thomas, nee Morris, abode Tredel, William a labourer.
1833 (9 Jan): Husband 1 William Thomas buried in Mathry (abode Tredel)
1832/3: Daughter Ann(e) born (Mathry) - my 2* great g'mother; no baptism found
1839 (12 Mar): Anne Thomas (widow) married John Owen in Llandeloy
1848 (16 Nov): Husband 2 John Owen buried in Llanhowell (abode Treglemes)
1852 (21 Aug): Daughter Ann(e) married John Owen at Haverfordwest register office
1853 (20 Aug): Grand-daughter Jane born at Treglemesh; no baptism found
1855 (1 Aug): Daughter Ann(e) died, aged 23, buried in Croesgoch (with her baby daughter Elizabeth, aged 14 days)
1873 (28 Feb): Ann died at Treglemais, buried at Croesgoch
1879 (25 Nov): Grand-daughter Jane married Henry Griffiths at Croesgoch Baptist Chapel
Two images attached as well, in the hope that someone can tell me the residence at the time of Ebenezer's baptism (is it Cwmbadau, like William?), and Anne's parish before her marriage. I've also included an extra image, showing more of the page in case other entries are helpful.
The timeline seems to fit, William is always a labourer, and abodes such as Pershe, Tredel and Treglemesh occur more than once. But the mix of religious denominations and the missing baptisms makes me wonder if this is wrong somewhere. Any comments or suggestions welcome.
Thanks for reading.
Deirdre