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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Moray (Elginshire) => Topic started by: drbono on Sunday 31 March 13 03:20 BST (UK)
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I am having a great deal of trouble finding any detailed information about a relative of mine named George Ellems or George Ellims.
Australian records suggest he was married in Melbourne, Australia in 1848, and born in Elgin, Scotland - I suspect around 1830 or so.
I cannot find any further details on him on the searchable databases that have been suggested on this excellent forum.
Can anyone assist me with finding out more about George Ellems/Ellims?
Thanks very much!
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Hi drbono,
Had a quick look on Scotland's People but had no success with the names Ellems/Ellims.
Just a suggestion but do you think perhaps his name was misinterpreted in Australia. :)
Looking at the 1841 Census the name Elmslie crops up a few times in Aberdeenshire including some Georges.
On www.familysearch.org there is a George Elmslie listed as being born 9 Dec 1817 (a bit early for your date of circa 1830, I know) at Elgin, Moray to a George Elmslie and Ann Garrow.
Do you have any idea when George came to Australia? And did he have children to his wife, and do you have their names?
How did you acquire his birth year of around 1830?
Sorry for all the questions. It's just to try and get a clearer picture. If he had children he may have used family names (forenames or surnames) when naming them.
Cheers,
Looby
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Hi Looby,
Thanks very much for your interest in my relative. He has been very elusive!
We know about him from a few sources;
1. Birth Certificate of his son “John Ellems”
Born on 27th April 1854 in Heidelberg (near Melbourne), Victoria, Australia.
States his father was “George Ellems” a “settler” born in “Elgin, Scotland” - no age or date of birth given.
States his father was married in Melbourne and had 4 children living at the time.
States his mother was “Margaret Ellems” with the maiden name “Macpherson”, aged “25 years” and born in “Ayrshire, N.B.”.
Interestingly, his 1895 death certificate states he was “John Elms”!
2. Marriage Certificate of his daughter “Annie Ellims”
Married on 7th July 1873 in Presbyterian Church of Ballarat, Victoria, Australia to Robert Rae.
States Annie was born in Heidelberg, Victoria, Australia.
States she was 21 years old when married.
States her father was “George Ellims” & mother “Margarent McPhillimy”
3. Marriage Certificate of his son “George Edwin Ellims”
Married on 12th February 1880 in Ballarat, Victoria, Australia to Bertha McEvoy.
States George Edwin Ellims was born in Heidelberg, Victoria, Australia.
States he was 26 years old when married.
States her father was “George Ellims” a “carpenter” & mother “Margaret McPhillimy”
4. Death Certificate of his daughter “Jane Ellims”
Died on 8th April 1885 in Ballarat, Victoria, Australia.
States she was 27 years old when deceased.
States her father was “George Ellims” a “carpenter” & mother “Margaret McPhillimy”
5. Newspaper extract from The Argus (Melbourne, Australia) in 1868;
“A man named Reid, alias Macpherson, was recently apprehended at Stockyard-hill, on a charge of swindling. He is now in Kilmore gaol. A more serious charge - that of bigamy - has since been preferred against him. His real name is said to be George Ellems, was married in Melbourne in 1848, and deserted his first wife and her five children in Ballarat in 1857.”
Not sure where the “Reid” alias came from, but the “Macpherson” alias was his wife’s maiden name!
In summary, I think he had 7 children in total, but we only know the names of 4. His son George Edwin Ellims had 12 children (George Edwin / Margaret Florence / Mary / Jane / Florence Ann / George Percy / Harold Victor / Maud / George Edwin II / Bertha Pauline / Vivian Bert). We have been unable to trace his 1848 marriage certificate, his 1868 court records, or his death certificate. Nor have we been able to find how he got to Australia – earliest records suggest he was in Heidelberg, Melbourne, Australia in 1848 (for his wedding). The birth year of 1830 was a rough estimate based on nothing other than the dates of his marriage and children.
It looks like the surname changed from Ellems to Ellims during this time, and was even documented as Elms so there appears to be some variation. There is an old parish called Ellem/Ellim in Berwickshire (merged with Longformacus) but we have had no success looking there either.
Any assistance you can provide me would be most greatly appreciated!
Cheers, drbono
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Hi drbono
Welcome to RootsChat :)
From what you have, not unreasonable to perhaps have George born around 1807 (thinking of the 1807 entry that Looby found in Elgin). He would have only been around 31 if the marriage was in 1848.
Couldn't see anything from what you mentioned that actually showed his age/birth year so Looby's entry would be worth you checking out, particularly with the names of that George's parents: George and Ann. If your George followed Scottish naming pattern, there might be some connection there. I like this guide www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm on naming patterns.
Have you been able to confirm wife/mother Margaret McPherson's (?McPhillimy) parents from her death cert?
Monica
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Hi again drbono,
George Ellems/Ellims was certainly an interesting character!
Haven't had a lot of time today but I had another quick look at the 1841 Census transcribed on www.freecen.org.uk - it's a free site (clue in the name ;D). While I was browsing using various permutations of the names we have I found an entry that might interest you. Could be absolutely no connection what so ever :-\........but I thought it worth listing.
Old Machar - Aberdeenshire -
Reid Will age 36 Merchant Born England
Elmsie/ Reid Ann age 36 Born Aberdeenshire
Reid Ann Isobella age 6 Born Aberdeenshire
There is also a servant? listed at the address.
I found it interesting as I reckon Ann and Will are not married and she's using both names. It was the Reid connection to George Ellems that made me look twice at it!
So far I've not been able to find these people on the 1851 Census.
There is a George Elmsie listed in the 1841 Census aged 18 - a salmon fisherman born Aberdeenshire and in a household of other salmon fishermen at Bridge of Dee Kincardineshire. Could he be Ann's son?? We'll probably never know. And of course your George could already be in Australia.
Will try a few searches tomorrow for you. It's a pity you haven't got his death or his date of arrival in Australia.
Strange how his wife's maiden name morphs from McPherson to McPhillimy (latter name seems more Irish in my opinion).
Looby
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Thanks Monica & Looby for your interest in my difficult relative!
It is interesting that M
Monica, we don't have Margaret Ellems' death certificate for sure, however there is an interesting death certificate for a “Margaret McPhillimy” who died in 1880 in Ballarat;
1. George & Margaret Ellems moved to Ballarat from Melbourne in the 1850s so the location of death matches.
2. The person in the 1880 death certificate was born in Ayrshire, Scotland (therefore birthplace matches John Ellems' mother's birthplace in his 1854 birth certificate (see my earlier post)).
3. The person in the 1880 death certificate was "single" at the time of her death (George had deserted her in 1857 in Ballarat according to the newspaper article)
4. "Margaret McPhillimy" is the mother of George Edwin Ellims who was married in Ballarat in 1880.
BUT, the age of death in the birth certificate does not fit – it states she was only 33 at death, making her date of birth 1847... I wonder whether the age of death is incorrect??? I can't believe that Ballarat had 2 Margaret McPhillimy's in the 19th century who were both born in Ayrshire!
Looby, with your work on the Reid side of things, I have done some exploring of shipping lists to Australia using Reid rather than Ellems/Ellims. I have found an entry for the ship the "Lord George Bentinck" which sailed from London in 1848 to reach Melbourne (then known as Port Phillip) in 1849. There is a George Reid (age 28) and his wife Margaret (age 24) - George is listed as a "labourer", both from "Denniss, Orkney Islands", both able to read & write, and both Presbyterian. Could this be George and Margaret Ellems??? Again, the ages don't quite fit, and it would mean they were already married by 1848/1849, rather than being married in 1848 in Melbourne. Again, a lot of coincidences...
Finally, I have another newspaper source about George Ellems from the time of his arrest in 1868;
"Respecting the capture of a man named Reid, alias McPherson, charged with swindling. The police authorities in Ballarat have been communicated with by the man's first wife, whose name is Margaret Ellems, and the mother of five children by the scoundrel. His real name, it appears, is Geo. Ellems. He was married to Margaret Ellems in 1848, in Melbourne, by the Rev. Mr Phillips. In 1857 he deserted her in Ballarat and until his recent arrest she never received the slightest clue of his whereabouts. He is at present in Kilmore goal."
George’s marriage certificate is a key piece of evidence, as is his gaol record - both I have not been able to locate, but I am working on it! More and more, I am wondering whether Ellems/Ellims is an adopted name, perhaps to cover his tracks!
Looking forward to seeing if any of this new information might be relevant!
Cheers, drbono
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Hiya,
Just about to go to bed! After 2 am here...yawn.
But just a thought....due you think Margaret's maiden name was perhaps McPherson and McPhillimy was a name she adopted after George deserted her (dare I say it...maybe she met someone else??)
Have tried a search for McPhillimy/McPhilimy on 1841 Census and can't find anyone with either spelling in Scotland.
Looby
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Hi Looby,
Interesting thought. The sources that state McPherson/Macpherson are;
1854 birth certificate of son John (Macpherson is listed as "mother's maiden name")
The sources that state McPhillimy are;
1873 marriage certificate of daughter Annie (McPhillimy is listed as "mother's maiden name")
1880 marriage certificate of son George (McPhillimy is listed as "mother's maiden name")
1885 death certificate of daughter Jane (McPhillimy is listed as "mother's maiden name")
The newspaper articles from 1868 reference George Ellems using the alias McPherson/MacPherson.
All very confusing...
Cheers, drbono
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Hiya,
Have found a Margaret McPhilemy on 1851 Census living (and born) in Irvine Ayrshire. She is listed on www.freecen.org.uk as being 3 months old - yet on www.familysearch.org she is listed as 3 years old . The census record would have to be viewed on Scotlands People to verify her correct age. Of course she can't be your Margaret.....but she could be the one on the 1880 death certificate especially if she was born in 1847/48.
Looby
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Just in case it may turn out to be relevant, I have 'lost' a George Elmslie. He was born in Tannadice, Angus in 1811, son of the village schoolmaster William Elmslie and his wife Ann Wilkie. I have no idea whether he died young, or grew up and emigrated. He would have been 36 or 37 in 1848, so it's not impossible that he was your 'scoundrel'.
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Hi Forfarian,
Thank you for your input. I have found some further information in recent days that might be helpful.
I believe I have located George Ellems' marriage certificate. It is from 1850 and lists the groom as George Ellis and the bride as Margaret McPhilimy. The marriage occurred at St Peters church in Melbourne - a Church of England service, however this is not too surprising as Church of England dominated early Melbourne religion. Unfortunately, there are no further details on the certificate pertaining to date of birth, origin, etc.
Secondly, I have found a Presbyterian baptism certificate from 1853 pertaining to one of George Ellems' children - Ann Jane Elms. The father is "George" and the mother is "Margeret" and the baptism occurred in Heidelberg where they lived.
Thirdly, we have discovered the Melbourne prison records of a George Elms, born in ~1850, who is likely to be George Ellems' first son.
From this it seems that the surname Ellems has been written as Elms (now on multiple occasions in this generation), as well as Ellis.
It would not be too far a stretch to see the original derivation coming from a name like Elmslie - shortened it becomes Elms, and slightly jumbled in could become Ellems.
A final amusing point is that the minister who baptised Ann Jane Elms was Rev Reid. Rev Reid had a son who became a well known local politician around this time - his name was George Reid (the same alias chosen by George Ellems)!
Cheers, drbono
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Hi drbono,
Does your new information still suggest that George was born Elgin in Morayshire?
Where was that piece of information recorded?
Have found a likely candidate for on the IGI'S -
George Ellis born 4 May 1833 at St.Andrews Lhanbryd, Moray to Robert Ellis And Ann Adam.
On 1841 Census George Ellis age 8 is listed at St.Andrews Lhanbryd living with a Margaret Adam age 60, a midwife (probably his grandmother) and Archibald Simpson age 15.
I couldn't find him on the 1851 Census. And I couldn't find a marriage between his parents (not to say they weren't married :D, I just couldn't see one on IGI's)
So could this be the man of mystery? Certainly this George could have emigrated prior to 1850 and married at 17 years old.
Looby
PS. Forgot to mention Lhanbryde is a villiage abour 4 miles from Elgin and it has a St.Andrews Street! ;D
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Just some updates regarding my relative.
I have found out more about George Ellems's wife Margaret McPhillimy.
It appears that she came to Australia via the ship "William Stewart" from Plymouth, England, arriving in Melbourne in 1848. In the passenger list she is listed as "Margaret McFellamy", aged 20. There is a Hugh McPhilimy aged 23, apparently her brother, on the same vessel.
I have certainly discovered her death certificate too. She died in 1894 as "Mary Henchman" in Ballarat, near Melbourne. Her parents are Hugh McPhillimy & Margaret McPhillimy (nee Noble) and the certificate states she was born in Tyrone, Ireland. Finally, the certificate states her previous marriage to "George Ellims" and 5 children with their ages. Her surname was Henchman as she had a civil marriage to Charles Hinchman.
So much of the mystery about George Ellems' wife have been solved but I have not obtained anything more on George Ellems himself. The only document that states George's birthplace is an 1854 birth certificate of one of his five children, John. It is unfortunate that I cannot find any of his other children's birth certificates to provide a confirmatory source of his origin.
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I think George Ellems/Ellims has been found!
George Ellis from Birnie, Elgin went for trial in 1844 in Inverness for forgery. He was found guilty and sent to Australia in "exile" for 7 years. He arrived in Melbourne (Port Phillip) by the Maitland ship in 1846. I have discovered from the National Archives of Scotland that he was a carpenter. He was 33 years old in 1846.
His birthplace, age, arrival time in Australia & occupation all fit. Additionally, his 1844 charge for forgery matches his 1868 arrest for in Australia for forgery too.
The Scottish 1841 census states he had a family (inc. 3 daughters) in Elgin - it appears he remained in Australia after his term of exile had expired.
His Australian marriage certificate from 1850 states his name as George Ellis - a question that may never be answered is why he changed his name to Ellems/Ellims.
Thank you to all that helped me on the forum!
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Congratulations on making a break through! ;D
It certainly looks like George Ellis is a " good fit " for your George Ellims.
Just puzzled by your reference to George's 1850 Australian birth certificate ???. Why would a man be given an Australian birth cert?
Excuse me, if I'm being dense....it's just after eight on a Saturday morning and I'm not fully awake. Just browsing the site with my first mug of coffee for the day :D
Looby
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Sorry Looby - the 1850 document is actually a marriage certificate - I have adjusted my post.
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George is in the 1841 census at Thomshill, Birnie, Moray, described as a cartwright, with wife Isabella and daughter Joanna, 2 and Hellen, 1.
In 1851 Isabella, aged 40, described as house carpenter's wife, is at Thomshill with daughters Helen, 11; Christina, 9; and Helen, 7. Joanna, aged 12, is a servant in the household of William Taylor, farmer, at Pans Port, Elgin.
Thomshill http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ2157
Pans Port http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ2262
The IGI lists four children of George Ellis and Isabella Forsyth, who were married at Duffus, Moray on 3 June 1837.
Johanna Brander born 9 baptised 22 July 1838
Helen born 1 baptised 14 January 1840
Christinia born 25 baptised 31 October 1841
Isabella born 17 October baptised 1 November 1843
You should look up both censuses, the marriage and all four baptisms at SP to make sure that any transcription errors are your own, and also to note any additional details that may be in the baptism records, for example names of witnesses, who may give a clue to George's parentage.
According to http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp Isabella Forsyth or Ellis, wife of George Ellis, carpenter, and daughter of William Forsyth and Christina Mortimer, applied for relief from the parish of Birnie in 1854. The application will describe her circumstances and almost certainly refer to George having been transported, which is just the clinching detail you need. Isabella died on 22 July 1888 at Thomshill.
I am now getting into the realms of speculation. Traditionally a first daughter is named after her mother's mother, a second daughter after her father's mother and a third daughter after her mother. George and Isabella, however, named their third daughter after Isabella's mother and their fourth after Isabella.
It would be interesting to know why they chose an unconventional name for their first - could she have been named after one of the Brander family who were prominent in the Elgin area, and owned land in the parish of Duffus? Was George in some way connected to or indebted to the Brander family?
Noting that George and Isabella were married in Duffus, and that their second daughter was named Helen, I wonder whether George is the son of John Ellis and Helen Robertson, born 3 and baptised 11 October 1812 in the parish of Duffus?
LIBINDX records that Helen Robertson, wife of John Ellis, daughter of George Robertson and Margaret King, died at Deanshillock on 19 March 1855. This means that you are really, really, really lucky, because an 1855 death certificate lists all children, living and dead, of the deceased, often with their whereabouts. So go to Scotland's People and download a copy of this death certificate, and if it says that Helen had a son George, aged 42, in Australia, you have the proof you need.
Deanshillock http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ3056
If I am right, you also have not one, but two more generation on your tree.
Happy hunting!
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PS. Forgot to mention Lhanbryde is a villiage abour 4 miles from Elgin and it has a St.Andrews Street! ;D
I overlooked this one earlier.
For clarification, Lhanbryde is the only village in the parish of St Andrews-Lhanbryd (without the e!), sometimes referred to simply as St Andrews, and not to be confused with the burgh of St Andrews in the parish of St Andrews and St Leonards in the County of Fife.
The parish of St Andrews-Lhanbryd extends west into the burgh (town) of Elgin, where its boundary with the parish of Elgin is the River Lossie. So it is possible for someone to be born, or to live, in the burgh of Elgin but not the parish of Elgin, and for someone to live of be born in the burgh of Elgin and the parish of St Andrews-Lhanbryd.
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Old Machar - Aberdeenshire -
Reid Will age 36 Merchant Born England
Elmsie/ Reid Ann age 36 Born Aberdeenshire
Reid Ann Isobella age 6 Born Aberdeenshire
I found it interesting as I reckon Ann and Will are not married and she's using both names.
Another one I missed earlier!
There are absolutely no grounds for thinking that they were not married.
In Scotland, a woman legally retains her maiden surname; taking her husband's name is merely a convention.
She is referred to in legal documents as "<given name><maiden surname> or <husband's surname>", and certainly in the 18th century would be known as "Mistress <maiden surname>, wife of <husband's name>".
Here is an example transcribed from the Rothes Parish Register: "1748, September 11th. William lawful son to Alexander Leslie of Balnageith in Burncrooks and Mrs Anne Duff his spouse was baptized. Witness Mr James Gray minister."
It is not at all uncommon to find perfectly respectable married women listed in the earlier censuses under their own name, though the practice pretty much died out by the end of the 19th century.
In this case, the IGI says that William Reid and Ann Elmslie were married in Old Machar, Aberdeen on 25 September 1831.
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Old Machar - Aberdeenshire -
Reid Will age 36 Merchant Born England
Elmsie/ Reid Ann age 36 Born Aberdeenshire
Reid Ann Isobella age 6 Born Aberdeenshire
I found it interesting as I reckon Ann and Will are not married and she's using both names.
Another one I missed earlier!
There are absolutely no grounds for thinking that they were not married.
In Scotland, a woman legally retains her maiden surname; taking her husband's name is merely a convention.
She is referred to in legal documents as "<given name><maiden surname> or <husband's surname>", and certainly in the 18th century would be known as "Mistress <maiden surname>, wife of <husband's name>".
Here is an example transcribed from the Rothes Parish Register: "1748, September 11th. William lawful son to Alexander Leslie of Balnageith in Burncrooks and Mrs Anne Duff his spouse was baptized. Witness Mr James Gray minister."
It is not at all uncommon to find perfectly respectable married women listed in the earlier censuses under their own name, though the practice pretty much died out by the end of the 19th century.
In this case, the IGI says that William Reid and Ann Elmslie were married in Old Machar, Aberdeen on 25 September 1831.
Sorry for all my errors Forfarian
We all live and learn ;D
I should have done my homework on that one and checked the IGI's myself before I made the post :(
Looby
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Thanks Forfarian for all your input and Looby for your ongoing interest. Forfarian, your suggestions all proved extremely fruitful and I would like you provide an update of what I have discovered as a result.
Starting with George Ellis who was sent in exile to Melbourne, Australia;
-born in 1812 in Duffus
-married Isobel Forsyth in 1837 in Duffus
-had 4 children;
1. Johanna Brander (born 1838 in Thomashill)
2. Helen (born 1840 in Thomashill)
3. Christinia (born 1841 in Thomas Hill)
4. Isabella (born 1843 in Thomshill)
-only listed in 1841 census, consistent with his exile to Australia in 1846
George Ellis parents are indeed John Ellis & Helen Robertson;
-John Ellis & Helen Robertson married in Alves, Elgin in 1810
-Helen Robertson's death certificate lists 9 children (but not their location) - all children were born in Duffus between 1812 & 1834
-John Ellis died in 1864 in Elgin while Helen Robertson died in 1855 in Deanshillock
John Ellis was born in 1786 in New Spynie (near Duffus) to William Ellis & Christina Ross. He was the third of 5 children - his siblings were born in Ettles, Drainie (William, 1781) / Duffus (John I, 1783) / West Alves (James, 1788 + Alexander, 1792.
I was surpised to be able to go so far back with relative ease, however I am now stuck at William Ellis. A couple of online "Ellis" family trees suggest;
-he was born in 1762 in Alves, possibly to George Ellis
-his siblings were George Ellis (born 1769) & Ferdinand Ellis (born 1776)
I do not, however, have any strong documentation suggesting these details. I am being a little greedy now, as I am just delighted that I have been able to find out so much. I am actually heading over to Elgin in 6 weeks time to do some more hands on research and I am also awaiting copies of the Inverness trial records from 1843.
Thanks again to all that have helped me!, drbono
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George is in the 1841 census at Thomshill, Birnie, Moray, described as a cartwright, with wife Isabella and daughter Joanna, 2 and Hellen, 1.
In 1851 Isabella, aged 40, described as house carpenter's wife, is at Thomshill with daughters Helen, 11; Christina, 9; and Helen, 7. Joanna, aged 12, is a servant in the household of William Taylor, farmer, at Pans Port, Elgin.
Thomshill http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ2157
Pans Port http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ2262
The IGI lists four children of George Ellis and Isabella Forsyth, who were married at Duffus, Moray on 3 June 1837.
Johanna Brander born 9 baptised 22 July 1838
Helen born 1 baptised 14 January 1840
Christinia born 25 baptised 31 October 1841
Isabella born 17 October baptised 1 November 1843
You should look up both censuses, the marriage and all four baptisms at SP to make sure that any transcription errors are your own, and also to note any additional details that may be in the baptism records, for example names of witnesses, who may give a clue to George's parentage.
According to http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp Isabella Forsyth or Ellis, wife of George Ellis, carpenter, and daughter of William Forsyth and Christina Mortimer, applied for relief from the parish of Birnie in 1854. The application will describe her circumstances and almost certainly refer to George having been transported, which is just the clinching detail you need. Isabella died on 22 July 1888 at Thomshill.
I am now getting into the realms of speculation. Traditionally a first daughter is named after her mother's mother, a second daughter after her father's mother and a third daughter after her mother. George and Isabella, however, named their third daughter after Isabella's mother and their fourth after Isabella.
It would be interesting to know why they chose an unconventional name for their first - could she have been named after one of the Brander family who were prominent in the Elgin area, and owned land in the parish of Duffus? Was George in some way connected to or indebted to the Brander family?
Noting that George and Isabella were married in Duffus, and that their second daughter was named Helen, I wonder whether George is the son of John Ellis and Helen Robertson, born 3 and baptised 11 October 1812 in the parish of Duffus?
LIBINDX records that Helen Robertson, wife of John Ellis, daughter of George Robertson and Margaret King, died at Deanshillock on 19 March 1855. This means that you are really, really, really lucky, because an 1855 death certificate lists all children, living and dead, of the deceased, often with their whereabouts. So go to Scotland's People and download a copy of this death certificate, and if it says that Helen had a son George, aged 42, in Australia, you have the proof you need.
Deanshillock http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ3056
If I am right, you also have not one, but two more generation on your tree.
Happy hunting!
Hi there
I hope this is were I post this..yes the George Ellis you have here is the son of John Ellis & Helen Robertson. On her death cert he is 44 yrs old.
I wondered why I could never find George's death date and didn't think of him going to Australia. My husband is related to George's brother John Ellis who's son William b 1852 Moray also went to Oz.
If you haven't already got a copy of Helen's death cert I can send it to you.
Cheers Ali :)
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George is in the 1841 census at Thomshill, Birnie, Moray, described as a cartwright, with wife Isabella and daughter Joanna, 2 and Hellen, 1.
In 1851 Isabella, aged 40, described as house carpenter's wife, is at Thomshill with daughters Helen, 11; Christina, 9; and Helen, 7. Joanna, aged 12, is a servant in the household of William Taylor, farmer, at Pans Port, Elgin.
Thomshill http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ2157
Pans Port http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ2262
The IGI lists four children of George Ellis and Isabella Forsyth, who were married at Duffus, Moray on 3 June 1837.
Johanna Brander born 9 baptised 22 July 1838
Helen born 1 baptised 14 January 1840
Christinia born 25 baptised 31 October 1841
Isabella born 17 October baptised 1 November 1843
You should look up both censuses, the marriage and all four baptisms at SP to make sure that any transcription errors are your own, and also to note any additional details that may be in the baptism records, for example names of witnesses, who may give a clue to George's parentage.
According to http://libindx.moray.gov.uk/mainmenu.asp Isabella Forsyth or Ellis, wife of George Ellis, carpenter, and daughter of William Forsyth and Christina Mortimer, applied for relief from the parish of Birnie in 1854. The application will describe her circumstances and almost certainly refer to George having been transported, which is just the clinching detail you need. Isabella died on 22 July 1888 at Thomshill.
I am now getting into the realms of speculation. Traditionally a first daughter is named after her mother's mother, a second daughter after her father's mother and a third daughter after her mother. George and Isabella, however, named their third daughter after Isabella's mother and their fourth after Isabella.
It would be interesting to know why they chose an unconventional name for their first - could she have been named after one of the Brander family who were prominent in the Elgin area, and owned land in the parish of Duffus? Was George in some way connected to or indebted to the Brander family?
Noting that George and Isabella were married in Duffus, and that their second daughter was named Helen, I wonder whether George is the son of John Ellis and Helen Robertson, born 3 and baptised 11 October 1812 in the parish of Duffus?
LIBINDX records that Helen Robertson, wife of John Ellis, daughter of George Robertson and Margaret King, died at Deanshillock on 19 March 1855. This means that you are really, really, really lucky, because an 1855 death certificate lists all children, living and dead, of the deceased, often with their whereabouts. So go to Scotland's People and download a copy of this death certificate, and if it says that Helen had a son George, aged 42, in Australia, you have the proof you need.
Deanshillock http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ3056
If I am right, you also have not one, but two more generation on your tree.
Happy hunting!
Hi there
I hope this is were I post this..yes the George Ellis you have here is the son of John Ellis & Helen Robertson. On her death cert he is 44 yrs old.
I wondered why I could never find George's death date and didn't think of him going to Australia. My husband is related to George's brother John Ellis who's son William b 1852 Moray also went to Oz.
If you haven't already got a copy of Helen's death cert I can send it to you.
Cheers Ali :)
Hi drbono,
Thankyou for your message but for some reason I couldnt reply to it grr!! Ill post this one here but can you please tell me how I reply lol!! ("feeling like a plonker") Im not very computer savy.
I did have some of the information you sent but manage to full in a few gaps to which is wonderful. Thankyou so much.
John Ellis & Helen Robertsons son William Ellis b 1819 also went to Australia this is what I have..
William b 1819 m Hellen Dean 1867 Blackhills, Moray.
Children are...George Nelson Ellis b 13/6/1867 Adelaide, Australia d 1930
Robert Ellis b 1/8/1869 Mt Gambier, Australia
Margaret Ellis b 12/2/1872 Mt Gambier, Australia
Isabella Ellis b 15/12/1875 Mt Gambier, Australia
William Alexander b 6/8/1882 Mt Gambier, Australia
Geroge Nelson Ellis b 1867 m Agnes Charlotte Le Lievre b 8/9/1867 Ashby, Victoria, Australia d 1908
Children are...Leslie Ellis b 1896
Frank Le Lievre Ellis b 1898 Fremantle, Australia
George Ellis b 1900
John Nelson Ellis b 1904
Lorna Dean Ellis b 1905
Ruby Clare Ellis b 1906
Estella Elizabeth b 1907
so it looks like a few Ellis's went to Australia. With my husbands family Ill reply (if I can) on your message as there are quite a few names on that.
Hope this helps,
Cheers Ali
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Hello
I noticed that in this thread there is a mention of Margaret King and George Robertson (parents of Helen Robertson Ellis). They are my 6th great-grandparents. I was wondering if anyone in this thread turned up any more information about their parents? The names are so common, it's difficult to get a read on which Robertson is which. Thank you!
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Hello
It's quite a long time since this discussion, but I wanted to let you know that there is a letter at the Public Records Office Victoria in Melbourne from George Ellis to the Colonial Secretary dated 26 December 1847, asking for assistance to bring his wife and children over from Scotland.
He gives his wife's name as Isabella Forsyth and lists their four daughters. He was living in Geelong at the time.
Hope that helps with your research
Jill B
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Could I ask a question about Hugh McPhillimy & Margaret McPhillimy (nee Noble)? I believe I am their direct descendant of their son James McPhillimy 1823- 1893. Are Hugh and Margaret also their children? Do you know if they had any other children? I am trying to find the direct link to the McPhillimy family in Geelong Australia. Would be very grateful for any ideas about where to find further information.
Following on from this comment:
I have found out more about George Ellems's wife Margaret McPhillimy.
It appears that she came to Australia via the ship "William Stewart" from Plymouth, England, arriving in Melbourne in 1848. In the passenger list she is listed as "Margaret McFellamy", aged 20. There is a Hugh McPhilimy aged 23, apparently her brother, on the same vessel.
I have certainly discovered her death certificate too. She died in 1894 as "Mary Henchman" in Ballarat, near Melbourne. Her parents are Hugh McPhillimy & Margaret McPhillimy (nee Noble) and the certificate states she was born in Tyrone, Ireland. Finally, the certificate states her previous marriage to "George Ellims" and 5 children with their ages. Her surname was Henchman as she had a civil marriage to Charles Hinchman.