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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Roxburghshire => Topic started by: blamcca on Monday 01 April 13 00:20 BST (UK)
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An ancestor of mine- Janet Knox Duncan- was born on the 8 May 1830. So armed with this birthdate from the family bible I think I have found her, the daughter of Alexander Duncan and Jean/Jane Haitley/Heatlie. Born on the 8 May 1830 in St. Boswells, Roxburghshire. However now I am having troubles with tracing her family further back. According to her marriage entry she was the daughter of the 'late Alexander Duncan, Baker'. I found Janet in the 1841 census with her mother, Jane, and siblings Margaret and Walter. I couldn't be sure of which Janet was her in the 1851 census although, because there were so many, I think she had moved to Edinburgh by then, because that is where she got married.
In the 1851 census however I found a Jane Duncan, Widow and House Servant for the Croxen family of St. Boswells. However the age doesn't match up at all, in the 1841 census Jane was apparently 38 and in the 1851 census if this is her she is now 40!! Unless there is a transcription error or the 1851 age was just a guesstimate by the head.
Also in 1851 I found Walter Duncan, Scholar aged 17, head of household and living alone (a little odd I thought).
Now in the 1861 census I am sure I have found Jane although in this census she is apparently 52! So many discrepancies. She is still living in St. Boswells and is listed as a baker's widow (which is true). Can't find Walter though, although there is a Walter Duncan of roughly the right age living in Liverpool, apparently born in Scotland.
I couldn't find Jane in any later censuses, perhaps others can (or maybe she died).
Anyway I decided to try and trace backwards and I have come up with 2 possibilities for Jane, there was a Jean Haitley born to John Haitley and Betty Knox (Knox is Jane's daughters middle name) in 1799 at Lilliesleaf and a Janet Haitley born to the same couple in 1806 in Ancrum. The censuses say that Jane was born in Ancrum. Can anyone perhaps make me a bit more sure of all this? There are a lot of discrepancies.
Thanks in advance. :)
Sorry for a lot of information I just like to show what I know so people don't waste there time looking for it as well.
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Hiya
Thanks for all the detail - it does help save us re-inventing the wheel ;D
I can't find Jane DUNCAN in 1871 (still looking), but found her, see next reply!
CENSUS 1881: St Boswell, ED: 1 / Page: 11 / Line: 5 / HS 62
Jane DUNCAN 80, b Ancrum, General Servant, St Boswells,
and her death, methinks:
Scotlands People Index
1 x Jane DUNCAN death in ROXBURGH 1881-1891.
By manipulating the search fields - it can be discovered:
She died 1886.
Other surname is: Heatlie
She was 85 years old.
It was registered in St Boswells
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hah, She's been incorrectly transcribed in 1871, I'm sure this will be her:
1871: Lessudden, St Boswells, ED: 1 / Pg 6 / HS 34
Head: James BOSWELL 70, Retired Servant, b Ancrum
Lessudden, St Boswells is where Jane DUNCAN, 62, Bakers Widow is at in 1861. Though I see also, Lessudden is a former name for St Boswells.
So, would be now interesting to see who the informant of her death is and other information off her death cert!
Cheers
AMBLY
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This is Jane DUNCAN (nee HEATLIE) son: Walter Davidson DUNCAN
He moved about a bit!
1861: 5 Murray Lane, St Montrose, Angus
Walter D DUNCAN 26, Grocer's Salesman, b Ancrum Roxb.
1871: Garlshore? Siddings? Colttage, Kirkintilloch, Dumbartonshire
Head: Walter D DUNCAN 36, ----? Man, (Gentleman?) b Ancrum Roxb.
with wife Margaret 33, ----ntemans wife? b Glasgow & 7 children:
Alexander- 12, Grace S-10, George M -8 , b Arbroath, Forfar
Jane H - 6, Walter G - 4, Robert M - 3, William G - 1mth, b Kirkintilloch
Note: Eldest son and 2nd eldest daughter on the 1871 Census are named: Alexander and Jane H DUNCAN (fits naming pattern). Dau Jane's birthplace appears to be incorrect as the IGI have it in Lanarkshire (below). Perhaps she was born at the home of her mother's folks but they lived at or were shortly afterwards at, Kirkintilloch. Occupation of 'Gentleman' for Walter, if that is correct - hmm, combined with the moving about, appears to be in reduced circumstance in 1881 below ....he may have been a bit of an 'entrepeneur' type ?
1881: Parkfoot, Kilsyth, Stirlingshire
Head; Walter DUNCAN 46, General Labourer, b St Boswells, Roxb.
Dau: Grace DUNCAN 20, Domestic Servant, b Abroath, Forfar
Son: Walter DUNCAN 15, Apprentice Blacksmith, b Kirkintilloch, Dunb.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTJB-VBQ
Walter Davidson DUNCAN and Margaret MARSHALL
Married: 10 Jun 1857, Arbroath
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQZW-7XH
Jane Heatlie DUNCAN b 26 Jun 1864, Tradeston, Glasgow,
Parents: Walter Davidson DUNCAN and Margaret MARSHALL
Cheers
AMBLY
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Someone has quite a big a* tree centered around Walter, I think.
Says wife1, Margaret MARSHALL died 1873 and he remarried Margaret STEWART btw 1881-1891. His daughter Grace's middle name was Sharp. Walter died 7 April 1912, Kilsyth.
1891: Kilsyth, Stirlingshire
Head: Walter DUNCAN 56, Gen Labourer, b St Boswells, Roxb.
Wife: Marg't DUNCAN 56, b Bannickburn, Stirling
Step-Son: Rob STEWART 22, Gen Labourer, b Auchterarder, Perth
Son: Wm DUNCAN 20, Tailor, b Kirkintilloch, Dunb.
1901: Walter & Margaret and Rob STEWART, are still all together in Kilsyth,
Nothing on the tree for Walter's sister Janet though, save her name and 1841 Census. Nothing for Jane HEATLIE past the 1861 Census either.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Wow AMBLY!!!
I'll get that death certificate later, need some more credits on ScotlandsPeople. I'll let you know when I get it.
So I wonder what prompted Walter to move around a lot, perhaps he kept getting trouble ;) So it seems he adopted the middle name Davidson, perhaps a lead, Janet did the same with Knox.
I wouldn't imagine the tree would have much about Janet, she got married in Apr 1852 to Samuel Inglis and in May 1852 they got on a ship and went to Australia.
Could you find anything about Margaret Duncan (Jane's other daughter)? I think I found her in the 1851 census as a Servant for the French family.
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I have found Walter's wife number 2, she was Margaret Orr Johnston before she married Robert Stewart in 1866
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTTY-GXD
Not sure when Robert died though.
And I found that Margaret Stewart married Walter in 1882 in Kilsyth.
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Great - All parts of the jigsaw ;D
Margaret DUNCAN, b abt 1831 St Boswells (or Ancrum) might be a bit more difficult to find than her brother, Walter:(
I agree, you probably have the right girl in 1851.
I found a Mrs Jane Heatlie ROBERTSON in the 1881 Census, age 28 b Eckford, Roxburghshire, wife of John.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KMFQ-3PN
And wondered if she may be a daughter of Margaret - but it appears from what I can find , that this Jane's ms is HEATLIE (father's name Thomas).
Cheers
AMBLY
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Oh, I had a question!
I found an online website about Janet and Samuel and their children:
http://shrinkalink.com/62937
Their Children all born Aussie:
Jane 1853
Samuel
Mary
Janet ( b 1860, died 1860, Teatree Gully Broken Hill SA, B & D registered as Janet INGLIS).
Helen
Alexander Duncan
Elizabeth
Samuel's parents were: Samuel & Mary - and 1st Son, 2nd Dau are: Samuel & Mary (fits pattern)
2nd Son and first Daughter are: Alexander Duncan & Jane = fits pattern for mother's parents to be Alexander DUNCAN and Jane.
Naming patterns can be a real help in Scottish genealogy especially!
They could've give dau Jane 1853, a middle name of Heatlie, eh, wouldv'e been so much easier !
My question is: Did Janet Knox INGLIS ( nee DUNCAN) die in 1904 in Broken Hill NSW , as it says on that site?
Cheers
AMBLY
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I'll try to find some more on Margaret.
Those Inglis' you found are certainly mine. Janet Inglis (nee Duncan) actually died in Broken Hill in Mar 1905, but her headstone suggests she died in 1904. According to her death registration her parents were John and Jane though, I wonder who the informant was?? Perhaps I should think about getting her death certificate.
Their daughter, Mary Inglis is who I am a descendent of.
I should really commit these Scottish Naming patterns to memory, the Scottish were so predictable!! ;D
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Just to keep it straight in my head ;D......
G1) John HEATLIE m Betsy KNOX, =
G2) Jane HEATLIE b abt 1809 m Alexander DUNCAN, =
G3) 1) Janet Knox DUNCAN 1830-1905, m 1852: Samuel INGLIS
2) Margaret DUNCAN
3) Walter Davidson DUNCAN m Margaret Marcshall 1, m Margaret O Johnson/Stewart
I'd bet Alexander Duncan INGLIS was the informant for Janet's 1905 death? He died Kingscte (Yankilla district) in SA 1919 but the Newspaper report of his death said he was late of Broken Hill - so maybe Janet had gone to live with him in her older age? Very possibly, Alexander D. (or whoever did inform on Janet's death) has mixed up the generations - naming her grandfather John as her father, instead of correctly, her father Alexander.
When Janet married Samuel INGLIS (who was born in Berwickshire) it was in Midlothian 1852, and I wondered why there…. tradition is to marry in the parish of the bride, and from all acounts that appeared to be St Boswells /Ancrum area of Roxb. I wondered if Samuel was based in Midlothian - Banns can be called in the differing Parishes of bride & groom and oft-times there are what looks like 2 marriages on the IGI - except one is Banns (where the marriage was NOT formalised and is the Grooms Parish), and the other - the slightly later dated one - is when the marriage was added to the Banns and is the Bride's parish.
Anyway! A bit of lateral digging about and the place of marriage makes sense to me after working out the following:
A sibling for Jane HEATLIE DUNCAN:
BIRTH: Williiam HATLIE Chr 23 Dec 1803, Lilliesleaf
Parents: John HATLIE & Betty KNOX
MARRIAGE of that sibling:
William HEATLIE & Elizabeth BRICE, 23 May 1834, St Boswells.
BIRTH to that marriage: William Knox HAITLIE b 14 Oct 1841, chr 13 Dec 1841, Cockpen Midlothian
Parents: William HAITLIE & Elizabeth BRYCE
Census 1841: Kirkhill, Cockpen, Midlothian
http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
William HEATTIE 35, Ag Lab - Y
Elizabeth HEATTIE 35 - N
John HEATTIE 3 - N
Elizabeth KNOX 70 - N
Elizabeth DUNCAN 12 - N
Census 1851: House at Trotters Bridge, Cockpen, Midlthian
http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Head: William HEATLY 45, Ag Lab, b Ancrum, Roxb.
Wife: Elizabeth HEATLY 45, b Carstairs, Lanarkshire
Son: John HEATLY 13, b Ancrum (abt 1838)
Son: William K HEATLY 9, b Cockpen
Mother-In-Law: Mary CHRISTIE** 75, b Libberton, Lanarkshire
Visitor: Elizabeth STARK 5, b Borthwick, Midlothian
Note: ** we have Elizabeth as BRYCE maiden name, not CHRISTIE - and it will definitely be her maiden name that is being used in the 1834 Marriage & 1841 birth of son WK (even if she was married previously and a widow). Possibilities are that:
1) Wife Elizabeth in 1851 is a 2nd wife, same forename (and stepmother the boys)
and
2) Mary CHRISTIE is therefore the mother of wife2
or,
3) Mary CHRISTIE is the mother of the wife who is Elizabeth BRYCE - and Mary is
doing what was very common is Scotland, using her maiden name. It was common
practice with widows and and also, perhaps to a lesser extent, with married women,
or
4) Mother-in-law- means Step-Mother, (Step relationships often termed as "-in law") and
therefore she could be William's mother (but from the 1841, we know this is not likely
in this case)
Personally I plump for 3). And I think in the 1841 Census, that is exactly what Elizabeth KNOX is doing too - ie:I'd say she is Betsy KNOX HEATLIE, widow of John HEATLIE, mother of William and of your Janet HEATLIE DUNCAN.
The Scottish naming pattern is great! Always exceptions to a rule of course, but it was a stronly adhered to rule. It did lessen over time and/or if families moved away from Scotland, especially to the States, they often weakened or completely departed from the pattern earlier than may have happened had they stayed in Scotland.
AMBLY
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Wow Ambly once again you have found great things. There were other children on familysearch of John and Betty/Betsy Heatlie, but they only have John Heatlie on them, Betty is only mentioned on William's baptism.
Also just to say I am not too sure about Jane Heatlie Duncan's birth you have 1809 there I believe it is more around 1800.
The informant would either be Alexander or John McClintock (her son-in-law) if it was family. This is the story I know about the Inglis'. Samuel and Janet ended up living at Elatina, SA (near Blinman in the middle of nowhere these days). Then Samuel suddenly died in 1887, so Janet went to live with her daughter Mary (recently married to John McClintock) the new McClintock family moved around a lot, John worked for a railway company and he went where ever they needed him. Apparently he went up to Northern Territory at one point. Anyway they eventually settled in Broken Hill, NI am not sure why Alexander went there, perhaps just to be with his mother. Anyway that is the story I know not sure if there is any truth in it. Sadly Mary McClintock (Janet's daughter) died in 1900 of enteritis.
I have a copy of their marriage banns: 'At Edinburgh, the 28th day of March 1852. It is hereby certified , That Samuel Inglis, Miller, residing at Cockburn Mill, Parish of Duns (Berwickshire) and Janet Duncan residing at 30 India Street, Saint Stephens Parish, Edinburgh, Daughter of Alexander Duncan, Gardener, St. Boswells'
So Janet was living in Edinburgh, I am not sure how she met Samuel, but I do know Samuel's famiy lived in Roxburgh for a few years when Samuel was just a boy. Also according to the banns Janet's father was a Gardener!!
Also this is their proper marriage: '9 April 1852- Samuel Inglis, Miller, Cockburn Mill and Janet Knox Duncan, daughter of the late Alexander Duncan, Baker, St. Stephen's Parish, Edinburgh, were married the 9 April 1852 before William Dods and William Redpath'
Theses two documents are a bit contradictory, the banns was copied from the original, but the actual marriage was copied from a transcription from a book, that may have been edited.
I am not sure whether you noticed or not but in 1841 there is an Elizabeth Duncan living with William Heattie and his family. This is probably Janet's elder sister who I though must have died because she wasn't living with her mother and siblings.
I think you may be right I have found a lot of Scottish widows resorted to their maiden name.
I had more to write but I am out of time I will write the rest later.
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I got Jane Duncan's death certificate.
The informant was her daughter, who was Margaret Douglas, I have found evidence of a Margaret Duncan and John Douglas having several children in Roxburgh in the roughly right years.
Her parents were given as John Heatlie and Elizabeth Knox (both deceased) and she was apparently the widow of Alexander Duncan, Outdoor Labourer, perhaps Margaret never knew what her father did?? It appears that he died quite early.
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Hello, I am related to the Knoxs of Lilliesleaf. I have come across Elizabeth Heatlie nee Knox in my reasearch but havent linked her up yet. I think She is probably a cousin of my great x6 grandfather Ebenezer Knox who was born 1769 Lilliesleaf.
Tom
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Hi
William Heatlie (son of John Heatlie and Elizabeth Knox) also married Jessie Brownlee in 1856 in Edinburgh, so Elizabeth Brice his first wife must have died sometime after the 1851 census. Jessie had died in 1862 in Cockpen Edinburgh. I cant find William or Jessie in 1861 census.
Dawn
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Thank you for the extra information worth.
Are you a descendent of William?
Blake
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Hi
No, I am a Heatlie but from a different line. I am working on trying to find a connection between them all and your above Heatlie family is the one I am working on at the moment.
Dawn
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Dawn, I know I may be wishing too much but have you made a connection between this family in the respect of William's father John. I haven't been able to make an absolute connection.
Blake
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Hi
No not yet, but I have only just started on this Heatlie tree a week ago. So far I have 3 confirmed children of John Heatlie and Elizabeth Knox, and at least another possible 4 that im looking into. Johns son William was married for a second time in 1856 to Jessie Brownlee, and according to Williams marriage certificate both parents John and Elizabeth where still alive as it usually states 'deaceased' if no longer around. Also when Williams older brother died in 1875 both John and Elizabeth are down as 'deceased'. So going from that info John their father must have died sometime between 1856 and 1875. If I can find a connection somewhere with the other Heatlie trees, or Johns death I will let you know.
Dawn
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Thanks Dawn
Blake