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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: Craig1985taylor on Saturday 06 April 13 12:26 BST (UK)
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Hello im wondering if anybody might be able to help me find birth & death certificates for James Taylor & Ann Clark? They are the parents of my 4th Great Grandad James Taylor I found there names from his death certificate. He died on the 10th April 1876 in findochty Banffshire. Ive found a marriage certificate for James & Ann on the 23rd August 1788 in the parish of deskford but nothing more. If anybody can help track down what years they were born & died that would be great, id love to be able to find out who there parents were.
Thanks for any help you can be Craig.
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Before 1855 there were no birth, marriage or death certificates in Scotland. Baptisms and marriages (usually proclamation of banns) were recorded in the Church of Scotland parish registers. However, many events were not recorded and the state of the registers varies considerably. With deaths, some parishes kept a burial register and some recorded payment for the mortcloth at the time of burial, but these death related registers are not as common.
Have you looked at the free Libindx site which allows you to search for individuals in the area?
Have you found an entry for James Taylor junior's baptism? If you can find records of the baptisms of James Taylor and Ann Clark's children, the names of the witnesses might point to the names of grandparents.
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The marriage banns were called on 5 Aug 1788 at Deckfore, Banff and at Rathven, Banff on 23 Aug 1788.
Having found the names of the children I was trying to fit them to the Scottish naming pattern but there were too many to sort out. Perhaps you could have a look at that. There are several websites that give this information. This is one:
http://www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm
Good luck
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Before 1855 there were no birth, marriage or death certificates in Scotland. Baptisms and marriages (usually proclamation of banns) were recorded in the Church of Scotland parish registers. However, many events were not recorded and the state of the registers varies considerably. With deaths, some parishes kept a burial register and some recorded payment for the mortcloth at the time of burial, but these death related registers are not as common.
Have you looked at the free Libindx site which allows you to search for individuals in the area?
Have you found an entry for James Taylor junior's baptism? If you can find records of the baptisms of James Taylor and Ann Clark's children, the names of the witnesses might point to the names of grandparents.
Hi thank you for your input, i did mean to say baptism records & not birth records sorry about that, I have found all of there childrens baptism records but the witnesses are different in each ones so not sure out of them who are parents & who arnt?
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The marriage banns were called on 5 Aug 1788 at Deckfore, Banff and at Rathven, Banff on 23 Aug 1788.
Having found the names of the children I was trying to fit them to the Scottish naming pattern but there were too many to sort out. Perhaps you could have a look at that. There are several websites that give this information. This is one:
http://www.halmyre.abel.co.uk/Family/naming.htm
Good luck
Hi thank you for your info id never heard of the naming pattern before thats really interesting! With regards to the 2 dates you have given what does each one entail? I take it one is the actual day they got married but what is the other one?
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http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?406
You will find out about the Old Parish Register Banns and Marriages on the above link.
Rae
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Hi Craig and all,
If you go to FreeReg, http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl
and set parameters as :-
Surname = taylor Forename = james Date = 1795 +/- 10 County = Banffshire Place = Rathven
You will get 10 results, Nos 3 to 8 are yours, click on the blue numbers 3 to 8 to expand.
Tom
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Hi Rae & Tom thank you both for your links I will check them both out now :)
Cheers Craig
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Ok now ive got all there childrens births & the witnesses I can have a go at matching up with the Scottish naming pattern,
There 1st daughter's name was Elspet & one of her witnesses was Elspet Clark, so maybe this is Anne's mother?
2nd daughter's name is Margaret & one of her witnesses is called Margaret Taylor, Probably James mother?
3rd child born has no name but from the death certificate I have for James in 1876 I can work out this is him, so he's the first son born & should be named after the fathers father? One of his witnesses is called James Clark Jr so im wondering if both James & Anne's fathers were called James?
Next child is the 3rd daughter called Hellen nether of her witnesses are Taylor's or Clark's but one of James witnesses was called Hellen Taylor so maybe shes the fathers fathers mother?
Next child is the 2nd Son who was named Alexander, one of his witnesses is Alexander Clark who I think is ether Anne's father or her grandfather?
Last is William the 3rd son, one of his witnesses is called William Clark Hilton, but im not sure who he could be?
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Hi Craig,
Could this be baptism for your Elspet Clark, I just love the info in the "Notes".
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Baptisms&RecordID=7776620
used parameters :-
BAPTISMS for Surname = clark Forename = elspet Date = 1763 +/- 0 County = Banffshire
Tom
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In Scottish parish records married women are always given their maiden names. That means Elspet Clark is more likely an aunt or sister. "William Clark Hilton" will be William Clark. Hilton is his address. James Clark Junior could either be a cousin, or a brother, if Anne's father was also James.
Often the best way to sort out this kind of thing is to look at all the Clark baptisms/marriages in the parish and see who the witnesses are.
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Hi Craig,
Could this be baptism for your Elspet Clark, I just love the info in the "Notes".
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Baptisms&RecordID=7776620
used parameters :-
BAPTISMS for Surname = clark Forename = elspet Date = 1763 +/- 0 County = Banffshire
Tom
I dont think this could be Anne Clarks mother as she wouldnt be old enough? Anne would of been born about 20 years or more before her marriage in 1788? Plus Clark wouldnt be her mothers maiden name?
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Hi Craig,
I think GR2 is correct, Elspet maybe an aunt, cousin or a sister even.
The marriage of James Taylor and Anne Clark is here:-
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Marriages&RecordID=2302728
used the parameters -
MARRIAGES for Surname = taylor Forename = james Date = 1788 +/- 0 County = Banffshire
Tom
PS Just noticed the age differences, our posts crossed.
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In Scottish parish records married women are always given their maiden names. That means Elspet Clark is more likely an aunt or sister. "William Clark Hilton" will be William Clark. Hilton is his address. James Clark Junior could either be a cousin, or a brother, if Anne's father was also James.
Often the best way to sort out this kind of thing is to look at all the Clark baptisms/marriages in the parish and see who the witnesses are.
Oh i didnt realise that! Looks like im back to square one with who James Taylor & Anne Clarks parents are!
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yes ive found witnesses to marriages very helpful as they were usually close family members like siters and borthers -
however not always the case (talking of marraiges only here not baptisms) my gt gt grandfather was witness to 7 marriages on one day same church , he was owner of the quarry where -the people worked - so when you scroll down if you find the same witness to a few marriages its often someone who war 'around'at the time
I wish our English parish records had more deatil on the baptsims they dont list godparents at the moment
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yes ive found witnesses to marriages very helpful as they were usually close family members like siters and borthers -
however not always the case (talking of marraiges only here not baptisms) my gt gt grandfather was witness to 7 marriages on one day same church , he was owner of the quarry where -the people worked - so when you scroll down if you find the same witness to a few marriages its often someone who war 'around'at the time
I wish our English parish records had more deatil on the baptsims they dont list godparents at the moment
Yes its sometimes hard to work out whos family & whos a friend on them isnt it? Plus I know what you mean about english records not having half the info the Scottish ones have, ive gone back a few generations more on my Scottish side then on my English side.
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The marriage banns were called on 5 Aug 1788 at Deckfore, Banff
I think you'll find it's Deskford. It's the next parish to the east of the parish of Rathven.
If the banns were called in two different parishes, it means that the couple were living in different parishes just before their marriage. At least one of the dates will be the date of proclamation of banns rather than of the wedding ceremony.
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My 4xgtgdmother is Janet CLARK daughter of James CLARK & Elspet ANDREW, who moved from Mains of Buckie, Rathven to Raemore, Deskford in 1771: their MI is in Rathven churchyard and is exceptionally informative although disintegrating fast. Although there is no baptism record for her, and no record of her death that I've found, there is highly convincing evidence that your Ann CLARK is sister of my Janet CLARK - the most obvious perhaps being her marriage in the Deskford OPR: "TAYLOR & CLARK: James Taylor in the Parish of Rathven & Ann Clark in Ramore having been matrimonially contracted, after regular procedure were married. Pledge returned."
I have estimated she was born in Jun 1759, almost certainly in Mains of Buckie. The witness Elspet CLARK you mention is Ann's younger sister, born 20 Jun 1776 at Raemore (and baptised at Rathven Episcopal church). And the baptism of James TAYLOR born 26 Feb 1795 in Knowhead was witnessed by James CLARK in Raemore who was Ann's brother who was well-known to the Kirk Session for having quite a 'complicated' life. James TAYLOR m Barbara FLETT, and I believe I'm right in saying that his brother William TAYLOR m her sister Margaret FLETT; another brother Alexander TAYLOR m Isabella HECTOR; and it seems likely that sister Helen TAYLOR m William GEDDES a grocer in Findochty (and not a relative of mine) although I've haven't got as far as checking this out.
I haven't identified William CLARK in Hilton but he could well be another sibling of Ann - William CLARK b Raemore, bpt 12 Aug 1774. Lastly, the witness to Alexander TAYLOR's 1798 baptism is yet another brother Alexander CLARK (who marr Isobel SHEPHERD and was a long-term tenant in Mid Skeith, Deskford.
Hope this is consistent with what you have already.
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Hello Fordyce, thank you so much for that I believe you might of cracked the Clark side for me ;D all the info ive got seems to match up with what you said so im now inclined to think that my Anne is James Clark & Elspet Andrew's daughter.
You are correct about Anne's children James & William Taylor both marrying Flett girls! Also you might find interesting the other brother Alexander Taylor died within a few days of James Taylor & are both listed on same page!
Out of interest do you have a complete list of James Clark & Elspet Andrew's children?
Thanks for your help Craig
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Craig, did you receive my holding reply to your PM? I thought I had replied, but on a different machine, but RootsChat messaging seems such a black art that I cannot find my reply. Now I'm back home, I can respond properly - but I'd rather do it via normal email, so if you can let me have your address, I can send you much more info.
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Dear Craig,
James Taylor and Ann Clark were my great-great-great-great-grandparents through their son William, which I reckon makes us some kind of cousins.
I have copies of all their certs except for Ann Clark's birth cert, but I'm having a problem sending you them as attachments, so what I'll do is give you the details that's on them.
1. James Taylor:
born 15 February 1856 in Wakerdales, Rathven, Banffshire;
died 2 March 1832 in Newmill, Keith, Banffshire
married Ann Clark on 5 August 1788 in Ramore, Deskford, Banffshire
parents: James Taylor and Elspet Forbes
2. Ann Clark:
died 26 July 1836 in Newmill, Keith Banffshire
parents: James Clark and Isobel Webster
If you would like copies of the certs, just send me your email address.
Best wishes,
Iain Taylor
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Dear Craig,
Just an update to say I do have Ann Clark's birth cert after all (a mix-up in my file folders). She was born on 10 November 1765 in Kinnairdy, Marnoch, Banffshire.
Best wishes,
Iain
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Hullo Iain, I'm interested in the source of the date and place of death you cite for both James Taylor and Ann Clark. (They are not, as far as I can see, in the Keith Burial Books.)
As I explained earlier in the thread, I believe that there is sufficient evidence to conclude that the parents of Ann Clark w/o James Taylor are James Clark & Elspet Andrew, most telling being the appearance of Ramore family witnesses to three of their children's baptisms. James Clark was tenant in Raemore from 1771 until 1819, and has no connection with Marnoch. So I would be wondering how you were able to make the connection back from Ramore to Marnoch.