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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Fide et Fortitudine on Thursday 11 April 13 16:35 BST (UK)
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Help! I'm stuck on the early 1800s. I have traced my paternal line back to c. 1813-14, and would like to go back further but having difficulties.
My great-great-great-grandfather WILLIAM COUTTS is on the 1851 Scottish census, aged 37, so that puts his birth around 1814. According to the census, he was born at "Morres", Forfarshire (Angus) which I'm guessing is a misspelling of Murroes, near Dundee. But I can't find a BC for him on the Old Parish Registers at Murroes. In 1851 he was a flaxdresser, living in the Parish of St. Vigeans, Arbroath as head of house with his wife Sarah Coutts (nee Douglas), born at Craignish, Argyll and their 5 children: William (16), Alexander (13), Agnes (6), and Mary (3). Mary's birth certificate (Parish of St. Vigeans, Arbroath, 1847) has her father William Coutts as a weaver.
William and Sarah were separated at some point earlier in their marriage, after the births of William and Alexander and before those of Agnes and Mary. The 1841 census lists Sarah Coutts (aged 25) living on Keptie Street, Arbroath, only with her children William (aged 7), Alexander (3), Ann (10 months - who must have died before the next census) and a Margaret Duncan, aged 10 - probably a relative. There is no mention of William Coutts living with Sarah in 1841. That's another mystery to explore, but for now I'm concentrating on the lineage.
William Coutts must have died between 1852 and 1855 (again, no death certificate found) because Sarah Douglas remarried in June 1855 (to James ALLARDICE) at Arbroath. This marriage certificate states that it is a second marriage for both parties, but I cannot find the first marriage certificate for William Coutts and Sarah Douglas.
So, without definite birth, death or marriage certs for William Coutts, how to confirm who his parents were? ???
I have looked at OPR births around the 1814 mark. The 1813 OPR of Dundee has a William Coutts, son of Alexander COUTS and Isabel LEITH. Witnessed by W. Coutts (uncle). This strikes me as a strong possible match as William named his second son Alexander, following the Scottish tradition of naming a child after a parent. On the other hand, it might be a coincidence.
Any guidance on how to advance on this would be much appreciated.
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Hi Fide,
Looking at the 1841 Census there is a William Coutts - Flax Dresser - age 20 - Born Angus living at Rossie Street Arbroath.
Other residents in the household are
Luisa Coutts - Flax Spinner- age 15- born Angus
Elizabeth Hutchison- age 55 - born Angus.
According to Google Maps Roosie Street Arbroath is 0.3 miles from Keptie Street where Sarah Coutts and her children are. Could this be your William with sister and mother??
I know at 20 he is a bit young to have a 7 year old son but bear in mind that at the time of the 1841 Census people were told to round down to the nearest 5 years.
i.e. If William was 24 he could have given his age as 20.
Don't know about Elizabeth being his mother but it was common practice to in Scotland around this time for a widow to revert to her maiden name. :D
Good luck with your research,
Looby
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Yes, I would definitely be looking into the Alexander Coutts and Isobel Leith link ... given they had children christened in Murroes, the place of birth for William on the 1851 census ... see below from OPRs ...
John Coutts, christening 1794, St Vigeans, parents Alexander Coutts, Isabel Lieth
Agnes Coutts, christening 1796, St Vigeans, parents Alexander Coutts, Isabel Leith
Lilia Coutts, christening 1798, Murroes, parents Alexander Coutts, Isobel Leith
Alexander Couts, christening 1799, Murroes, parent Alex Couts
Isobel Couts, christening 1801, Murroes, parents Alex Couts, Isobel Leith
Margaret Couts, christening 1803, Murroes, parents Alex Couts, Isobel Leith
James Couts, christening 1806, Murroes, parents Alex Couts, Isobel Leith
David Coutts, christening 1808, Murroes, parents Alexr Coutts, Isobel Leith
Elizabeth Coutts, christening 1809, Murroes, parents Alexr Coutts, Isobel Leith
William Couts, christening 1813, Dundee, parents Alexander Couts, Isabel Leith
(Edited this post twice as found more children!)
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Wow, thanks for the tips, Loobyloo and Gali. Very helpful.
10+ children?! Poor Isobel Leith!
I'm on the case...
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I note SP OPRs has one death in 1844 Arbroath for 'Is*' 'Leith' other name 'Cou*'
There's also a record for a death in 1832 of an 'Alexander Couts' in Arbroath ...
Wonder if this is Isobel on 1841 census:
'Isobel Coutts' Independent, aged 80, High Street, Arbroath on 1841 census ... living alone
OR
could be 1841 Rossie Street Arbroath, aged 65, indexed as 'Isobel Leath', living with a David Coutts and a David and Isobell Wanlass (David Wanless married Isobel Couts 1819 St Vigeans)
Using 'next household' facility on Freecen I see that the immediately above household was 5 households away from the household found by Looby which included a William and Luisa Coutts.
Might be worth looking into marriage of Louisa Couts to Alexander Crichton 1843 St Vigeans. Alexander is on the 1851 census Cairnie Street, St Vigeans with 'mother in law' 'Elizabeth Hutcheon' aged 70 which matches the name of the other householder on the census found by Looby.
Some pieces of a jigsaw to try to fit together!
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Few more bits:
OPR has Alexander Couts and Isabel Lieth marrying 1793, Arbroath
and some more info from the OPR on the household found by Looby:
John Couts and Elizabeth Hutcheon married 1820 Arbroath
offspring listed on OPR
William, born Arbroath 1821
Louisa, born Arbroath 1823
Margaret Renny, born Arbroath 1826
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Thanks, Gali, for the leads. Now I'm really confused!
Re: 1841 Census
Found a William Coutts, aged 20, flaxdresser, living with Luisa Coutts, aged 15, flax spinner, and Elizabeth Hutchison, aged 55, on Rossie Street in the Parish of Inverbrothock, Arbroath.
At first I thought it possible that this Elizabeth Hutchison might be the same person as Isabel/Isobel Leith - Isabel being a variation of Elizabeth. If EH was indeed William Coutts's (widowed) mother, he might have been living with her while separated from his wife, Sarah, as Looby suggested.
However, in the same census I have also seen Isobell Leath, aged 65, living with David Coutts (20), a flax dresser, and Margaret Anderson (3), with David & Isobell Wanlass (45 & 35) on the same street (Rossie St.) - which you mention. I am more inclined to think this Isobell might be William's mother. Her age fits, born circa 1776. I have found the BC for a William Coutts at 16/7/1813 in the Parish of Dundee - son of Alexander Couts and Isabel Leith. If it's the same Isabel, she would have been about 37 when William was born, which makes sense if he was the 10th child.
Elizabeth Hutchison, on the other hand, is only about 55 in 1841. That means born circa 1786. According to Looby, the first child of Isabel Leith & Alexander Coutts was baptised in 1794, meaning that Elizabeth Hutchison was 8 years old when she gave birth?! Impossible. On this basis, Elizabeth Hutchison and Isabel Leith cannot be the same person. I have to rule out the Hutchison / Hutcheon connection for now. William Coutts might have been related to her if he was living with her and Luisa Coutts, but it is unlikely EH is his mother even if the census ages are out by 5 years. It sounds more like EH is Luisa's mother, given the 1843 marriage into the Chrichton family.
I have found the marriage certificate for Alexander Couts and Isabel Leith, 23/8/1793 at St. Vigean's Parish, which corroborates Looby's list of 10 children, with christenings starting at 1794.
I will look into those OPR death certs. you mentioned, Gali. Thank you very much for that.
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Hi Fide,
It was actually Gali who listed the 10 children, so I better not take the credit for that!! ;D
I found William with Luisa and Elizabeth and thought I'd draw him to your attention because he was around the right age and he was a Flax Dresser (but then again so might half of Arbroath been at that time :D). Chances are this William could be a cousin of your elusive man.
Just to throw another spanner in the works...there is a William Coutts born Scotland on the England 1841 Census (according to www.familysearch.org). His year of birth is 1811 and he is in St John district, Newcastle upon Tyne, Northhumberland. He is not showing in the English 1851 Census. Could be a false trail but then again.....
Hope this helps, sorry if it doesn't,
Looby
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Thanks Looby, yes you're right - it was Gali who found the 10 children. Oops, sorry Gali! Thanks, Looby, for pointing that out.
Thanks also for drawing my attention to William Coutts & Luisa/Louisa Coutts. I am inclined to agree with you that they might be cousins. It is clear that there are 2 (or more) William Couttses in the same area around the same time. One William Coutts is born in Arbroath, 1821; the other is born in Murroes, 1813, but lived in Arbroath in 1851 (census 1851, GROS no. 319/00 004/00 014).
I am 99% certain that my William Coutts is the one born in Murroes, registered at Dundee, 1813. This is based on the 1851 census and direct lineage info I have for the other members of the same household and their descendants, i.e. Sarah Douglas (Allardine) and their children. So I am afraid the William Coutts you mentioned in Newcastle, 1811 cannot be the same one. Thanks for the suggestion all the same.
I found a death certificate for one William Coutts in 1852 in the parish of Arbroath, which fits the time scale between my definite data on the 1851 census, and my definite data on his wife's second marriage in 1855. However, this William Coutts was a Tanner. Is it possible that he could have changed highly skilled manual jobs from flax dresser to tanner in 1 year, in his late 30s/early 40s? I find that unlikely. Also, according to that DC, that William Coutts was born in the parish of Barry. Not that far from the parish of Murroes or Dundee, true, but the career change still sticks out. So William Coutts the tanner is not my William Coutts the flaxdresser, I think.
Thanks, anyway, Looby. I'm on the case! :)
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Hi again,
Just remember that ages given on Censuses especially 1841 are not always accurate.
The William Coutts who gives his birthplace as Scotland and registered in Newcastle during 1841 Census may have rounded his age up from 37 to 40. Most people on that Census did round up or round down.
As for career change well anything is possible, although it does seem a bit unlikely ???.
I'll try and investigate a bit more :D
Looby
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I see from the 1851 census that the eldest children of William and Sarah Coutts were both born in Greenock. There is a William Coutts on 1841 census living on The Vennel, Greenock, born 1816, Scotland, occupation Flax Dresser. Of course no way of knowing if it is 'your man'.
Re the William Coutts died 1852 born Barry, occupation Tanner ... I think this guy was married to Ann Skae ... living in Arbroath, West Grimsby on 1851 census, Arbroath, Lady Loan on 1841 ... looks as if his wife was re-married by 1861 census to a David Simpson.
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Well at least we're eliminating the William Coutts who aren't your man!
Certainly looks like the tanner is living with Anne Skea with two young daughters in Lady Loan Arbroath in 1841 as Gali has already posted so he is out of the running.
And the other William (with Luisa) is too young.
The William in Greenock in 1841 (who I can't find on freecen ???) found by Gali could be a good bet if children of the couple are being born there in the 1840's. You would need to see if you could find an OPR of the Greenock birth to confirm parents names - I had no joy on familysearch.
There are burial records of the St.Vigeans and Arbroath area for 1825 -1854 which can be searched at Angus Archives in person, not online. Maybe you would find William Coutts death recorded there. I don't live anywhere near Angus so I can't oblige by doing a look-up I'm afraid.
Looby
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Hi Looby, can't see that info for William Coutts in Greenock in 1841 on Freecen earlier (strange ... as I had thought that Freecen 1841 was complete for Scotland - perhaps I am doing something wrong) ... but he's on the original one via SP, GROS data 564/00 025/00 009
Children of the couple were born in Greenock in c.1834 and c.1838 - also couldn't find OPR entries for their christenings.
Fide - does the surname McLarty mean anything to you? I wondered if perhaps Sarah Douglas had ever used this name at all ... if you look the surname up on IGI or SP you will see that there seems to be a large number of folks with this surname in and around Craignish, where Sarah Douglas was born. I mention this coincidence as not sure if you noticed in the OPRs there are two births registered to a couple named William Coutts and Sarah McLarty in Arbroath in years which tally with births of children of William Coutts and Sarah Douglas on the census. One of the girls is named Agnes Wanless Coutts ... which is a big coincidence given that William Coutts' potential sister Isobel (if he is indeed the son of Alexander Coutts and Isa/obel Leith) was married to a Mr Wanless. Coincidences I'm sure but I thought worth pointing out to keep in mind.
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Gali, we're on the same track. I spotted the Sarah McLarty-William Coutts-Agnes Wadlass Coutts connection too, and wondered if she might be the same Sarah as Sarah Douglas. However, there's this:
OPR Births Craignish, Argyll 508/00 0020 0045
SARAH CAMPBELL McCLARTY, daughter of DONALD McLARTY, tenant in ****(?) McLarty, Craignish, and JEAN McLARTY, his wife, was born on 29/5/1830, and baptised 8/8/1830.
This conflicts with:
(a) 1841 census - Sarah (Douglas) Coutts already had 3 children by then and is aged approx. 25. Sarah McLarty would have been only 11 years old that year, i.e. could not have 3 children.
(b) Stat. Marriages 1855 - Sarah Douglas Coutts remarried James Allardice - Sarah's parents' names are given as ALEXANDER DOUGLAS and SARAH CAMPBELL, i.e. not the same parents as Sarah McLarty's.
(c) Stat. Marriages 1865 - Alexander Coutts's marriage cert. (William Coutts's 2nd son) states that his mother's name was SARAH COUTTS nee DOUGLAS, i.e. not McLarty.
So they can't be the same Sarahs.
The fact that marriage certs are proving hard to find for a William Coutts and any Sarah, and lack of christenings for the eldest children suggests that they might not have been married at that time. I found a christening for MARY COUTTS at St. Vigeans Parish, 27/12/1847, born at Crossgate Road, daughter of WILLIAM COUTTS, a Weaver, and his wife, SARAH DOUGLAS. (Mary is the 5th child.) Sarah Douglas Allardice's death cert. (1871) also states that she was the first wife of William Coutts.
Looby, yes, I have seen the Ann Skea connection too. It looks like we can safely rule out William Coutts the tanner.
The William Coutts living in Greenock in 1841 sounds promising, given that his 2 eldest sons were born there c. 1834 and 1838. It suggests William might have returned to that area for work. The problem is his living arrangements in 1841 don't confirm who his parents were. My William was born at Murroes, Dundee in Angus (1851 census), which is nowhere near Greenock. I have searched OPR births at Greenock Old & West, Greenock East, and Greenock New and no William Couttses in the early 1800s.
OPR Births search for a William Couts born between 1810 and 1815 yield 5 results:
(1) parish of Keig, Aberdeen
(2) parish of Lerwick, Shetland
(3) parish of Dundee, Angus
(4) parish of Balmaghie, Kirkcudbright
(5) parish of Meigle, Perth
The only one that is remotely near Murroes is No. 3. And guess who the parents are? ALEXANDER COUTS & ISABEL LEITH! :-D
Grave plots at Arbroath might be an avenue to explore, given that family members were often buried in the same grave or nearby. If I can find the OPR deaths for Alexander Couts & Isabel Leith, they might tell me the grave no. or location.
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Just had an afterthought:
My William Coutts's first son was called William, and the second son was Alexander.
Given the Scottish tradition, this suggests William's father might have been named William, while the second son was named after the mother's father. This fits because Sarah Douglas's father was Alexander Douglas!
Looking back at those 5 search results, the only William Couts with a father named William is the one born in the parish of Lerwick, Shetlands! Born 25/8/1811, baptised 7/9/1811. The birth year is about right too. Father: William Couts, Mother: Margaret Scollen.
Margaret/Mary are variants. William's 5th child is Mary.
Is this a long shot or am I onto something here?
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Who would have thought there would have been so many William Coutts about ;D ? I didn't think it was a very common name but obviously on the east coast (I'm a west coast girl) it was / is.
The naming tradition can be quite handy at times narrowing down grandparents. But of course, if a child is born and dies in between Census's and is never listed in OPR's they are 'invisible'. Sarah and Wiliiam have lost an Ann who appears as 10 months old in 1841 but vanishes on the 1851. She appears to be the 1st daughter....but not called after either potential granny ???.
I tend to think your William is an Angus man given that there seem to be so many Coutts in the St. Vigeans/ Arbroath area and that his wife and children are there in 1841 then the family as a whole in 1851.
But it does raise the question of how a east coast man met and married an Argyllshire lassie and I reckon they probably both left their home area for work and met....at Greenock possibly??
Looby
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And I forgot to say....no matter what variant of Coutts I have tried on Freecen I cannot find William In Greenock....I've even searched William with no surname of that age group in Greenock and still no joy! Like Gali I thought 1841 Scotland was complete on that website but that William ::) is missing....
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Thanks, Looby. We can rule out my William being born in Greenock. 1851 census says he was born in Forfarshire, 'Morres' (= Murroes, Dundee). This William Coutts is definitely my William because I have other info on the descendants and members of the same household.
So you are right that my William is definitely an Angus man, but that doesn't mean his parents were. His parents might have moved to Angus from somewhere else.
I agree, it is most likely that my William Coutts moved to Greenock for work in the early 1830s, and met Sarah Douglas there, who probably also moved there with her family from Craignish, Argyllshire. In the early 1800s Craignish was a remote peninsula; there was probably not a lot of work for the poor there compared to Greenock, which was already an established thriving port. In 1800 the lands of Craignish were sold off to the Campbells of Jura. This might have sparked some resentment in the 'old' Campbells of Craignish (Sarah Douglas's mother was a Campbell). Sarah Douglas's father - Alexander Douglas - was a tailor (re: Stat. Marriages 1855 - Sarah Douglas & James Allardice) and my William Coutts was initially a weaver (re: OPR births Mary Coutts) so it is not inconceivable that William Coutts met Alexander Douglas, his future father-in-law, through the textile industry exporting at the port of Greenock to America, and therefore met his daughter Sarah. As the flax industry developed on the east coast, and as William Coutts was from the Dundee / Arbroath area, it looks like he took Sarah Douglas back with him in the mid-1840s, where his children Agnes and Mary were born.
I'm using a bit of imagination here, but you can see the possibilities!
You are right that the names of daughters Ann (who died) and Agnes do not point to any obvious grannies so far. There was a 6th unnamed child as well, who also died (re: Sarah's 2nd marriage cert. 1855). The 3 surviving children of William & Sarah were William, Alexander and Agnes Coutts.
One thing for certain is that in 1851 William Coutts and Sarah Coutts (nee Douglas) were listed as husband & wife in the same household. But I cannot find their marriage cert. anywhere.
I am still no closer to finding out who William Coutts's parents were! Battling on ... :)
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Hi Fide,
Sorry if I wasn't clear but the William Coutts I was looking for on the 1841 Census wasn't born in Greenock but just resident there. He is the man Gali mentioned in an earlier post living at The Vennel who was a Flax Dresser with the birthplace recorded as Scotland.
Chances are he is Sarah's husband still working in Greenock while for some reason she has travelled to and is living with her family in Arbroath. Your theory sounds plausible and great :D but as you say we will never know.
And how to tie this man to Alexander Coutts and Isabel Leith?? Well it's not going to be easy. Perhaps burial records?? Families often end up in the same plot. Alexander snr is already dead before William. If they died in the same place they could have ended up in the same lair. Same with his Mother Isabel. Did she outlive William? Could she be buried with him?
Which of William's surviving children are you descended from? Do any of their offspring or their siblings offspring bear names (especially middle names) which could link you to Alexander and Isabel?
My grandfather's sister wondered all her life where her middle name ( Nicholson) came from. Turned out it was from her great-grandmother on her father's side who had died 20 years before she was even born!! She never knew this, she was long dead before I started my family tree research and discovered the connection.
Sorry to fire a lot of questions at you but they are just some ideas that might....the big MIGHT...help and get a result. Hope you manage to find the missing link.
Looby
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I descend from William's Coutts's son, Alexander Coutts. Hence the obvious name link between the grandson and possible granddad. But then Sarah Douglas's dad was also called Alexander!
Also, just to confuse things, one of the sons of my Alexander Coutts was called Alexander, and one of his sons was too! Obviously an important name in the family.
There are no Isabels/Isobels/Isabellas/Bellas or Elizabeths in my direct bloodline, other than women or the mothers of women the male offspring married. But no daughters of those names. Mind you there are no Sarahs either, and William's wife was Sarah.
The children of the first Alexander (i.e. son of William) were:
(1) Mary Ann - I'm guessing named after Alexander's two sisters who died as children, Mary and Ann
(2) Alexander, Jnr.
(3) Jane - can't see the connection with this name
(4) Jessie - named after her mother, Jessie Birrel Mckay (Alexander Coutts's wife)
(5) Stewart McKay - McKay comes from his mother, not sure where the Stewart comes from
There might be more obvious name links to Alexander Couts and Isabel Leith with the offspring of William's siblings. If he is indeed their 10th child, the earlier siblings might have named their children Isabel first! But I'm not sure I want to go down the very laborious route of exploring all the children of 9 siblings and their marriages, especially when I'm not 100% sure if they are the real siblings.
To me, the 1813 OPR birth cert of William Coutts at Dundee, near Murroes is a strong lead, and the fact that all the other 9 were christened at Murroes, and William was born at Murroes. William's grandchildren and descendants called Alexander is another strong link.
OPR Deaths & Burial search for an Isobel Leith in Arbroath between 1841 (her last census) and 1884 (before statutory death regs.) yielded 2 possible Isobells:
(a) 4 Jan 1844 Isobell Leith, widow of ALEXANDER COUTS MILLER, born in the parish of Arbroath, died in the parish of St. Vigeans, aged 70 of old age. Witnessed by John Coutts.
Laid before Alexander Tyrie* (?) stone, row 26, grave no.5 on 6 Jan 1844
4 years later:
(b) 6 Jan 1848 Isobell Leith - GIRL - so this is a child, not potential "Granny Isobell"
So the first one is possibly William's mother. But all this death reg. tells us is that she was the widow of Alexander Couts (who was a Miller by occupation) and probably had an elder son named John (which fits that list of 10 children).
Found the OPR Death for Alexander Couts too: In the parish of Arbroath, 21 Jan 1832, a Miller, resident at Ferguston, died of a fever, aged 72, married, born at BIRS, laid nearest to Alexander Chrichton's grave (there's that Chrichton reference again!).
Can't find my William Coutts's OPR death, only the one for the Tanner born in Barry, which can't be him. Stat. deaths from 1855 don't come up with anything either.
So, still stuck! But still stubbornly trying! :)
Thanks for all suggestions, Looby.
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Hi Fide, could be that BIRS is Birse in Aberdeenshire ... there is a birth of an Alexander Coutts registered in the OPR in 1762 in that parish, father a John Coutts
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Great, another area to explore! ::) It makes sense that the first son of Alexander Couts & Isobel Leith was called John then. But are these guys my William's parents? That's the stumbling block so far.
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Yes, you may never find the parents of your William ... the OPRs are frustratingly incomplete and researching in pre-census times is not easy. Progress is sometimes possible but not straightforward and you may have to use unorthodox methods such as researching in detail the lives and times of the other nine children of Alexander Coutts and Isobel Leith ... and then find out that they are not linked to your line after all!
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Yes Fide - a lot of work researching siblings I suppose- with no guarantee it will bring you conclusive proof. Although I meant the offspring of William's children....but still it's a major undertaking.
The burial record of Isabel Leith certainly appears to be the Coutts mother. And I do think chances are strong that the William born to the couple in 1813 is your William. What a pity the poor chap died before 1855 :) and the registration of deaths because death and burial records are so sparse. Good luck with finding his burial. Some local family history societies transcribe Monumental Inscriptions and make their own records of graveyards....As I said previously I'm no where near Arbroath (never even been/ got a notion to now ;D) but I'm sure the town will have a family history society. Just came across a website called www.deceasedonline.com which might be of interest to you (pay to view, I'm afraid).
Good luck with your hunt.
Looby
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*Sigh* yes, it's hard work, but I'm not giving up yet! :D
I have a really strong feeling that something obvious is staring at me in the face and I've been overlooking it.
I'm getting suspicious about this Sarah McLarty connection again. I found that that one William Coutts had a daughter with Sarah McLarty christened ISABEL COUTTS on 7/12/1840 at St. Vigean's Parish. Of course this doesn't mean that this William is my William, but if I can establish that this Sarah McLarty is in fact Sarah Douglas, then it's looking promising.
I found a Sarah Douglas, wife of an Alexander McLarty, in Craignish. They were married in 1802 at Craignish and had at least 4 children together: Mary, christened 1803; Donald, christened 1805; Duncan, christened 1808; and Alexander, christened 1818. Couldn't find a death reg. for Alexander McLarty, but it's possible he died and Sarah reverted to her maiden name before moving to Greenock (and meeting my William Coutts).
One problem is this Sarah Douglas (McLarty's) father's name is given as Peter Douglas on the marriage cert. 'My' Sarah Douglas's father was Alexander. Unless his name was Peter Alexander or Alexander Peter?! The fact that none of Sarah McLarty's children are named Peter but there is a son called Alexander might suggest this.
Another problem is that Sarah Douglas McLarty first got pregnant in 1802. Even if she was very young at the time, say 14 years old, she would have been born around 1788 minimum. My Sarah was born circa 1813-1816 according to her death cert. and the 1851 census, i.e. well after. I know one can't rely too much on the accuracy of ages on old records, but could they be out by such a large margin, 25 years? It's a bit of a stretch. If she was born c. 1788 and if she did have William Coutts's children later, the last child to survive that union was born 1845 - meaning that Sarah McLarty Douglas was about 57 when she gave birth?! Not possible.
Another question is what happened to Sarah McLarty's 4 children if she is the same Sarah who moved to Greenock? The youngest McLarty child would have been aged about 15 and the eldest about 30 if/when Sarah met William Coutts in the early 1830s, so it's not inconceivable that the children were already working or living with relatives elsewhere or some of them might have died. But that's just guesswork.
So, nothing conclusive yet, but Detective Fide is working on it! ;D
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Hmmm...the Sarah Coutts at Keptie Street in 1841 already has a 10 month old daughter Ann. Taking that info as correct she couldn't have been the mother of a baby Isabel christened Dec 1840 (unless it was a child's christening ???).
But adding fuel to the fire William Coutts and Sarah Mclarty are the parents of Agnes Wanlass Coutts christened 9/2/1844 St Vigeans Angus and Wanlass is the married name of Isabel Coutts (daughter of Alexander Coutts and Isabel Leith) who has her own daughter Agnes Wanlass age 15 on the 1841 Census! Hope you could follow that?
I can't find baby Isabel of Freecen :(. Could Isabel be Ann ??
I am now leaning towards Sarah McLarty and Sarah Douglas being one and the same.
William and Sarah Coutts have a daughter Agnes aged 6 in 1851 Census meaning a year of birth 1844/1845. Could she be Agnes Wanlass Coutts??
And why would Sarah be using two different names?? Curiouser and curiouser.....
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Please bear with me here....
1841 Census Craignish Argyll
Sarah Douglas age 60
Alexander Clark age 10
Sarah Clark age 8
Probably a grandmother with her grandchildren. Wondered if this was your Sarah Coutts/Mclarty/Douglas's Mother.
Looked on Familysearch for births of the two children above. Couldn't find a Sarah but found an Alexander Clark born to a David Clark and ...wait for it Mary Mclarty at Glassary, Argyll 23/1/1829.
Then looked for Clark births with those 2 parents and found an
Andrew Clark born to David Clark and Mary Mclarty 7/4/1836 at ...wait for it...Greenock, Renfrewshire ;D.
There is also a Donald born in 1830 in Glassary Argyll.
So is the child Andrew born to the Argyllshire couple David Clark and Mary Mclarty or two other people with those names? And are Clarks in Greenock at the same time as William and Sarah Coutts?
Now searching the IGI's for a birth early 1800's for a Mary Mclarty gave me a Mary born to an Alexander Mclarty and a Sarah Douglas in Craignish 9/3/1803.
There are other births to the couple (but no Sarah listed) but there is a Duncan a Donald and an Alexander.
So could the lady Sarah Douglas in 1841 be the widow of Alexander Mclarty?
And could the family name be Mclarty , but as was fairly common Sarah reverted to Douglas when she became a widow and did her 'perhaps' daughter Sarah use for some reason both her mother's name Douglas and her father's McLarty. The Campbell name could be a red herring (maybe a middle name or Sarah Douglas's mother's name).
Hope the above all made sense. Gives you a lot more to investigate I'm afraid Fide!!
Looby
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Oh wow, things are definitely spicing up! I think we're getting warmer!
How about this:
1871 Census - William Coutts, Jnr. (eldest son of my William & the mysterious Sarah) is listed as being born in Craignish, Argyllshire! Not Greenock!
So somebody lied on the 1851 census?! :o
In 1871 William, Jr. is aged approx. 35 (i.e birth year abt. 1836), living in the civil parish of St. Vigeans, in the quoad sacra parish of Inverbrothock, at Fergus Square with his mother, Sarah Allardice, aged 55 (nee Douglas - she remarried in 1855, aged approx. 40). Also living in the house is the step-father James Allardice (aged 75), a 10-year-old grandchild of Sarah's - Alex Coutts, and another grandson, William, aged 8.
Sarah Allardice (ex Coutts, nee Douglas) died not long after the 1871 census - the census was taken on 2/4/1871 and Sarah died on 16th June that year (of arthritis and pulmonitis or pneumonitis). The death was reported by her son, Alexander Coutts, of 10 Baking Yard - that's my g-g grandfather.
So ... it looks like my William Coutts, Snr. for some reason travelled from the Dundee area to Craignish in the mid-1830s, met Sarah there (where she gave birth to their first son). Then they moved to Greenock, where the 2nd son was born (Alexander). We know that they were living separately in 1841; by that time Sarah was already back in Arbroath on Keptie Street.
I'm still exploring the McLarty connections, but it's looking good! If Sarah Douglas / Coutts / Allardice is the same person as Sarah McLarty, then she must have been a lot older than my William Coutts. The doctor who signed Sarah Allardice's death cert. (William Monne, M.D.) has her age at 55 in 1871, but if she was giving birth in 1803 (to Mary McLarty) then she must have been in her eighties. ???
What a detective story!
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Hi Fide,
There are too many Williams, Alexanders and Sarahs in this story! ;D ;D
Just to clear up - I think the Mary Mclarty born 1803 to Alexander Mclarty and Sarah Douglas is the sister of Sarah Coutts in Arbroath.
I think the McLarty family at Craignish was probably a large family and we only can find some of the births on Familysearch.
When Alexander Mclarty died, his widow reverted to her maiden name (if she ever used Mclarty in the first place, as many Scots women of this era kept their own name after marriage). Therefore on 1841 Census she is recorded as Douglas. Perhaps if her father had died before she married, young Sarah also for some reason used her mothers name. Of course all this is supposition :D.
Either the entire Mclarty clan moved to Greenock around 1836, or perhaps William And Sarah Coutts followed her sister Mary and her Husband David Clark to the town. More supposition???
Certainly good news that William jnr has Craignish as his place of birth. That ties him to the area!
So Sarah jnr. could have been born circa 1816.
Now I know Sarah gave the name Alexander Douglas as her father and Sarah Campbell as her mother when she got married to James Allardice but maybe she got the names wrong.
Then when she died in 1871 the informant of her death (one of the family?) would give the names from the wedding cert. or the names they'd been told by Sarah.
Again a lot of this is my vivid imagination. Could be true....but??
Keep investigating,
Looby
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I can't find baby Isabel of Freecen :(. Could Isabel be Ann ??
I am now leaning towards Sarah McLarty and Sarah Douglas being one and the same.
William and Sarah Coutts have a daughter Agnes aged 6 in 1851 Census meaning a year of birth 1844/1845. Could she be Agnes Wanlass Coutts??
Baby Isabel is on FamilySearch, baptised 7th December 1840 at St. Vigeans - daughter of one William Coutts & Sarah McLarty. Assuming she was born in December, this baby would have been 6 months old on the June 1841 census. 'Our' Ann is 10 months old on the census. Unless the mother's maths was just really bad, but I suspect Ann and Isobel are different girls.
Both Isabel & Ann are off the radar after 1841. Three of Sarah's children died before 1855, according to the marriage cert of Sarah Douglas & James Allardice. The 3 that died were probably Ann (missing from the household on the 1851 census), Mary (christened 27/12/1847, aged 3 on the 1851 census) and a 6th child - name uncertain. I'm thinking the 6th child might be Isabel, which reinforces the Sarah McLarty = Sarah Douglas theory.
I've been wondering about Agnes Wanlass Coutts as well. I can't find any other birth cert for an Agnes born of a William Coutts & Sarah around 1844/5. So this is pointing more and more towards Sarah McLarty being the same person as Sarah Douglas Coutts.
However, just to confuse things, there were two Agnes Couttses living in Arbroath around the same time! One married William Livingston in 1865. The other one married George Paterson in 1863. So the two Agneses were probably around the same age, maybe cousins.
The Agnes who married into the Livingston(e)s is the daughter of our William & Sarah. I have her death cert. Feb 1889 at Arbroath, aged 42 (which puts her birth year at 1847). Father: William Coutts, a flaxdresser (deceased). Mother: Sarah Coutts nee Douglas (deceased).
So, is this Agnes the same as Agnes Wanlass Coutts (daughter of Sarah McLarty), or is Agnes Wanlass Coutts the one who marries Paterson? :-\
I might have to look into the Paterson marriage & offspring, which might rule out (or confirm) the Wanlass girl.
Wanlass means luckless! That's how I'm feeling at the moment! ;D
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I said the 6th child might be Isabel. Sorry, I forgot that Isabel was born around December 1840, and Sarah Douglas Coutts had given birth to Ann about 3 months earlier, therefore cannot possibly be the same mother, as you helpfully pointed out earlier, Looby.
Back to the drawing board! *Sigh!*
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Hi Fide,
Have you found the births/christenings of -
William, Alexander, Ann, Agnes and Mary Coutts? I wasn't sure from previous posts if you'd found them all with William Coutts and Sarah Douglas as their parents.
Strange about Isabel and Ann?? Obviously Isabel Coutts died in infancy as I cannot find her on the 1841 Census (unless for some reason she was missed!)
Out of the 5 children above only 3 children survived to adulthood -William, Alexander( your gg granddad) and Agnes? Did only Alexander and Agnes marry?
Sorry firing questions just trying to think of some other avenue to try to solve your question :D.
I'm still leaning towards Sarah Douglas and Sarah Mclarty being the same lady...I could well be wrong :( - and it doesn't explain the mystery of 2 babies born in 1840 :( - but I just feel that Sarah has been swapping between her father and mother's names.
Have you checked the Census 1841 entry for the William Coutts residing in Greenock. Who is he living with?
The drawing board has a lot on it ;D. Keep smiling ;D
Looby
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Hi Looby
I have the christening for Mary Coutts - 27/12/1847 at St. Vigeans, Arbroath - which firmly identifies William Coutts, at that time a weaver, and Sarah Douglas as the parents. Can't find the christenings or birth registrations for William, Alexander and Ann; we only know their approximate birth years and links to William & Sarah from the censuses. The only birth reg I can find for any Agnes Coutts b. circa 1844 in Arbroath is the Wanlass girl - daughter of a William Coutts & Sarah McLarty. There's also the mysterious 6th child, name unknown.
Out of the 6 children, yes, the three that survived to adulthood were William, Alexander, and Agnes. They all married and had offspring.
- William Coutts (Jnr) m. Lydia Baird, 1859 - 5 children
- Alexander Coutts m. Jessie Birrel McKay, 1841 - 5 children [my line]
- Agnes Coutts m. William Livingston, 1865 - 5 children
Yes, I have looked at the 1841 Census for William Coutts, Snr. at Greenock. It has him aged 25 at the time, a flax dresser. It looks like he's living in a boarding house or poorhouse at The Vennel with various men, women and children who are not obviously related to William: one Margaret Duffy (35), Susan Docherty (20) - a dressmaker, James Docherty (10), Dennis Bannagan (45) - a merchant, Peter Pullan (30) - a flax dresser, and William Eddie (20), also a flax dresser. The first 5 people are Irish. I'm guessing our William knew the other 2 flaxdressers at work.
We know that at this time Sarah Douglas (Coutts) is in Arbroath on Keptie St. with William Jr., Alexander, Ann, and somebody else's child - Margaret Duncan (aged 10).
I wondered if this Duncan girl might yield a clue to a relative - a possible sister of William's. I found christenings for 2 Margaret Duncans at St. Vigeans, one in 1830, the other in 1831, but there are no Couttses among these children's mothers.
We know that Alexander Coutts was born in Greenock, and William Jr. might have been too, although a later census ties him to Craignish. William Snr. might have had work contacts there in the flax industry. In the 1840s the port at Greenock was already an established and thriving trading point, importing and exporting with the Americas. 1841 also saw the opening of a railway station at Greenock, providing fast links from Glasgow to the coast.
What puzzles me is if Craignish was the real birthplace for William Jr (according to the 1871 census), and that's where William Snr. and Sarah first met, why would the young William Snr. go there in the first place from the Dundee area? Craignish was a remote, sparsely populated peninsula; there couldn't have been many work opportunities for the poor. In 1841 the population of the village was 873! The working classes were leaving it, not going to it. It doesn't make sense for William to travel there. The only rather spurious link is that Sarah Douglas's father was a tailor. So perhaps William knew the dad from before somehow. Or they were linked in some way through the textile business. All conjecture.
I can't find the death cert for William Jnr. Wondering if that might have any clues, e.g. his mother Sarah's full name. I agree with you that it does look highly likely Sarah Douglas is Sarah McLarty, although the concurrent pregnancies of Isabel and Ann are problematic. Could there be 2 Sarah McLarties in Arbroath?!! :o
I'm also leaning towards William Snr. being the son of Alexander Couts & Isabel Leith as both his sons named their eldest sons Alexander. There are no Isabels among the female grandchildren, but then girls were usually named after the mother's line.
It's not very concrete, I know. Still digging! ;D
Thanks for all your help, Looby.
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I was hoping William's household companions at Greenock might hold a clue (other family members/people with names that pop up later ???) . But it was not to be!
Had a few credits left on SP -tried to find the Statutary Death of Sarah Douglas/Mclarty of Craignish Argyll - the woman listed below
1841 Census Craignish Argyll
Sarah Douglas age 60
Alexander Clark age 10
Sarah Clark age 8
And Bingo! Sarah died in the best year ever 1855, the year registration started and lots of details were collected! Date of death April 21th 1855
She is registered as-
Sarah Douglas aged 79 born (according to her children) Kilmartin Argyll
Her Father Peter Douglas (dec) Her Mother Mary Campbell (there is something written above the mother's name I can't decipher)
Married Alexander McLarty - occ. Tailor
Children in order of birth and ages :
1st Mary 50 years 2nd Donald? 48 years 3rd Duncan 46 years 4th Sarah 43 years
5th Alex 37 years
died April 21st 1855 at 12hr night at *undecipherable* ??? Craignish.
Cause of Death- a small bone which stuck in the *esophagus* (not clear)
Informant of Death - Mary Clark (I was really really hoping it would be Sarah Coutts/Allardice ;D).
If daughter Sarah was 43 in 1855 this gives her a date of birth of 1812. Bear in mind it would be Mary Clark who probably supplied the info.
Hope this brings you a bit closer. Still doesn't solve William's parentage :(
Looby
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AHA! You've made my day, Looby! ;D
Thank you SO much for using your credits on SP for me. You've made a phenomenal breakthrough. :-*
Your info confirms the details on Sarah Coutts/Allardice's death cert (1871), which has her mother as Sarah Douglas, nee Campbell, and father as Alexander Douglas. So Sarah Coutts's maternal grandmother was Mary Campbell and maternal grandfather was Peter Douglas, hence Sarah Coutts's 3rd daughter was named Mary!
If Sarah's dad, Alexander 'Douglas' is actually Alexander McLarty, the tailor, Sarah Douglas, wife of William Coutts is Sarah McLarty, which means that Agnes Wanlass Coutts christened 1844 is the same Agnes who's in the house in 1851, aged 6, and baby Isabel, baptised 1840, is either the 6th child or the same child as baby Ann. I can accept that the age given for baby Ann on the 1841 census is probably inaccurate. The main thing is that we now have the family for Sarah Douglas/McLarty/Coutts/Allardice! :D
Wow, what progress. Thanks to you, Looby.
Why Wanlass as a middle name for Agnes though? It seems a bit random. None of her 4 known siblings were given this name. I'm wondering if Wanlass might be a clue into William Coutts's parents, possibly.
It makes sense that Mary Clark was the informant of her mother's death in Craignish, 1855. Mary was the eldest child, and besides, Sarah is miles away at the time, in Arbroath. It's interesting that the mother died in April, and daughter Sarah remarried in June the same year (to James Allardice). Hmm... seems like an odd thing to do if you're in mourning. Would Sarah in Arbroath have even known about her mother's death? She probably could not read, so a letter might have been pointless.
One also wonders why daughter Sarah kept changing her surname on official registers between Douglas and McLarty. Mysterious.
However, there are now lots of data for our Sarah's line, and her full name, which is amazing.
Her birth year remains a bit murky. Her 1871 death cert has her at 55, i.e. b. 1816. The 1861 census has her at 46 (b. 1815). The 1855 marriage cert (to Allardice) has her at 40 (b. 1815). The 1851 census has her as 38 (b. 1813). And her elder sister supplied Sarah's birth year as 1812! So we might have to just say 1812-1816! That's good enough for me.
I'm off to download that death cert for Sarah Douglas, Snr. My new great-great-great-great granny! Happy me! 8)
Have a great weekend, Looby. :-*
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Delighted to have been able to help, Fide.
Looking again at the entry in the register, I can see that I made an error .
Sarah Douglas was born in Kilmartin and lived in the district 'from childhood' - I read it as 'from children', and thought her children had provided the info of place of birth. :-[
I have also studied the words again scrawled above Mary Campbell's name and still can't make them out. I wondered if perhaps it was yet another name!! Then I wondered if it meant that Mary Campbell and Peter Douglas were not married. But I cannot decipher it.
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Finished too early ;D
Meant to add - Agnes's middle name of Wanlass is the married surname of Isabel Coutts (third daughter of Alexander Coutts and Isabel Leith). Isabel married David Wanlass.
They are listed on the 1841 Census with Isabel Leith at Rossie Street Arbroath...I think this is on the first page of this thread.
So it looks like little Agnes could have been named after her paternal aunt and her husband.
Sarah marrying Allardice just weeks after her mother's death doesn't surprise me. She might not have known about the death....Is her mother down as deceased on the cert.
But even if she was aware of her mum passing, I think she would just have gone ahead with the marriage. Life was too short to mourn for long.
As for her use of both names Douglas/ Mclarty. i wonder if she called herself Douglas for a while after her dad died, then reverted again to her dad's name Mclarty.
looby
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I have also studied the words again scrawled above Mary Campbell's name and still can't make them out. I wondered if perhaps it was yet another name!! Then I wondered if it meant that Mary Campbell and Peter Douglas were not married. But I cannot decipher it.
Hi Looby, I queried it on the Handwriting forum:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=644290.new;topicseen#new
I agree with "maiden name - .........er", i.e. Mary Campbell & Peter Douglas were married.
Could Campbell be a 2nd married name for Mary? She might have been married before Peter and then been widowed. It would help to have the other name deciphered but it's hard.
If daughter Sarah Douglas (Snr) was b. circa 1776 at Kilmartin, Argyll (abt. 79 in 1855 at time of death), I'm putting Peter Douglas's & Mary Campbell's marriage between 1760s and early 1780s. Difficult to find OPR marriage registers for that time though.
However, I did find the marriage banns for Sarah Douglas (Snr) and Alexander McLarty, and..... surprise, surprise, they were married at GLASGOW! :o
31/8/1802. The banns were registered at Craignish, Argyll but the marriage took place at Lanarck, in Glasgow City.
So, Alexander McLarty and his parents, Donald & Mary McLarty (cousins?!) might have been from the Glasgow area. Or, Alex McL. went there looking for work from Argyll - I'm not sure how he would have met the Kilmartin/Craignish girl, SD, if he was a Glaswegian.
Found the christenings for all the direct McLarty children (Mary, Donald, Duncan, and Alexander) at Craignish (so the couple married in Glasgow but went to live in Craignish) but I can't find Sarah Douglas, Jnr's birth reg anywhere - and she's my line! Estimated b. year 1815, all the censuses have her birth at Craignish, but I can't find her christening. Maybe christened elsewhere? Glasgow?
It seems strange that the parents would baptise and register all the children except one (including the one after Sarah's birth). Maybe it's just been lost.
Maybe, maybe, maybe...! ;D
Thanks for all your help, Looby.
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I see, yes, Agnes Wanlass Coutts might have been named after her aunt Isabel and uncle David. If Isabel is indeed her aunt, i.e. if she is William Coutts's sister - which would confirm his parents! I'll have to look more into the Wanlasses in Arbroath.
I went went back and checked the marriage reg for Sarah Allardice. You were right, she could not have known about her mother's death - both her parents are not listed as deceased. Father: Alexander Douglas, a Tailor. Mother: Sarah Campbell.
This marriage reg also tells that Sarah Allardice was illiterate - she signs her name with an X.
There was certainly a lot of name swapping going on! She's on the 1841 census as Sarah Coutts, by 1844 she's back to McLarty; in 1847 she's using Douglas; in 1851 she's back to Coutts; in 1855 she remarries as Douglas; on the 1861 census she's Allasdice and in 1871 she dies as an Allardice! I'm amazed we found her at all, really!
I'm thinking it's looking more likely William Coutts, Snr. met Sarah around the Glasgow area rather than Craignish, given that her parents (Sarah & Alex) were married there, and we know at least one of the sons was born at Greenock.
Found one McLarty household at Greenock on the 1841 census - I was hoping I might find William Coutts on it as a son-in-law or boarder, but no. There's a 45-year-old woman ---- McLarty (first name missing), a Marker, with her 3 children: Peter (? not clear), Alexander, and Jean. All the children were born at Greenock, the mum wasn't. Could this be Mary, Sarah's elder sister, christened at Craignish 1803? The age is off but then they usually are!
There's another McLarty house at Glasgow in 1841 with an 80-year-old Mrs. McLardy of independent means and a 25-year-old Mary McLardy - a dressmaker. Living with a Mrs. Muir and a child Muir. This one looks promising: it could be 'granny Mary McLarty' (wife of Donald, mother of Alexander who married Sarah, Snr.) and her grand-daughter Mary, who is our Sarah's elder sister. Again, the ages are off (Mary is approx. 7 years older than her sister Sarah, and Sarah is also 25 on the '41 census). Again, we can't rely on the ages.
I've forgotten what my point was in all this! ;)
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Hiya,
Sometimes you feel like your head's doing to explode with all the names, places and dates ;D!
Mary McLarty (Sarah Coutts/Allardice's older sister) was married to a David Clark. It is their two children who are living with Sarah Douglas snr at Craignish on the 1841 Census.
The Clarks has a child Alexander who was born at Craignish 21/3/1829
There was also a child Andrew Clark born to a couple with their names 7/4/1836 at Greenock. I couldn't find that child on the 1841 Census. And the daughter Sarah must have been born circa 1833 but I couldn't find a birth for (must be something about that name...no -one registered Sarah!)
I would tend to think the McLarty's were an Argyllshire family too. Alexander the tailor maybe went to Glasgow for work?
According to Scotland's People site there were 367 McLarty's on the 1841 Census.
176 of them were in Argyllshire.....only 26 in Lanarkshire.
There were 41 Mclarty's in Ayrshire (my neck of the woods!).
But I have I feeling Alexander's roots are probably around Craignish just like Sarah snr.
I'll keep nosing...
Looby
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Just thinking you grt grt grandfather Alexander was born in Greenock in approx 1838.
Mary Clark's son was born there in April 1838.
The two sisters Mary and Sarah may have been at Greenock with their husbands at the same time.
I couldn't find Mary Clark on 1841 Census but she must be there somewhere ;D.
Looby
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Hi Looby,
Yes, indeed. I found the Mary McLarty/David Clark OPR christenings for their children, 4 so far:
- Alexander Clark, b. 1829 at Glassary, Argyll
- Donald Clark, b. 1830 at Glassary
- Sarah Clark, couldn't find her birth reg either, but she's on 1841 census, b. circa 1833 Argyll
- Andrew Clark, b. 1836 at Greenock ;D
Meanwhile also found on the 1881 census freesearch, dwelling at Lergoligan, Craignish:
Archibald McLarty, 37, married, b. Craignish
Ann McLarty, 35, married, b. Craignish
Robert Anderson, 14, unmarried, b. Ballachulish, Argyll
Archibald might be the offspring of one of the Douglas-McLarty sons (Donald, Duncan & Alex)?
This is the same house where Sarah Douglas, Snr. died in 1855, the same house where the Douglas-McLarty children were born (Mary, Donald, Duncan, McLarty and possibly our Sarah McLarty/Coutts) and the same house where Alexander McLarty, Snr. was living before he married Sarah Douglas - according to the marriage banns. The spelling varies slightly on all the records, and the handwriting is difficult to read, but in context it's clear that the house is called Lerigoligan or phonetic variations thereof.
Amazingly, this house still exists! Renovated and extended of course:
http://www.lerigoligan.co.uk/Lerigoligan/Lerigoligan.html
It's about half a mile NE of Craignish Village Hall/village of Ardfern, on Loch Craignish.
This is where my ancestors lived from 1802, definitely up to 1855, possibly later. ;D
So you're right, Alexander McLarty's roots are around Craignish, since he was living at Lerigoligan just before he married Sarah in 1802. So his parents Donald and Mary McLarty were probably living there too, possibly going back before 1802. The modern house website says it was originally a croft house, which suggests Donald McLarty, Snr. might have been a crofter in the late 1700s. Found out that the AF50 collection on the National Archives of Scotland has lists of crofts, with names of tenants, so that's another avenue to explore and go back even further in time! :)
I think it's highly likely the two sisters Mary and Sarah McLarty were both living in Greenock around 1838, maybe staying together & their husbands or other relatives. Pity there's no census for the 1830s! I couldn't find Mary McLarty/Clark on the 1841 census either, but will keep looking. Can't find her death cert. either.
Lots of options to look into now. Poor old William Coutts, Snr., our Murroes man, has got sidetracked!
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Well done with your finds.
It's all very interesting. So the McLarty's roots are in Craignish!
Think I could have found son Donald on the 1841 Census will need to research a bit more before posting . He is in Craignish but it could be a cousin?
Mary Clark is such a common name..not going to be easy but she must be there somewhere ;D
We might still find more on William Coutts...
Looby
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(Had a few SP credits to spare and joined in the search). Would a small place like Lerigoligan have had two tailors named Alexander with a wife whose maiden name was Douglas?
Lerigoligan: OPR Birth 21st September 1812 ref 508/00 0010 - a daughter born to Alexander MacLarty "taylor in Lerigoligan" and Marrion Douglas his wife. Baptism on the 22nd November. Child named Marrion.
I can't find this birth on the Familysearch site...
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Hello breaky,
Well done.
Think you've found the jackpot!
Fide, I think breaky has found your missing Sarah McLarty.
The names Marion/Marrion seem to be interchangeable with Sarah on some of the Islands and in Highland areas.
I googled it - http://www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Marion.html
So this OPR birth is Sarah/McLarty/Douglas/Coutts/Allardice 's. Trust Sarah to have been registered as Marrion! ;D
So only one Alexander McLarty , a tailor and his wife Marrion (Sarah) Douglas I think. ;)
Looby
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Fide
According to Family Search there is a Mary Clark on the 1841 Census at Greenock - her age is 35, which fits in with a 1806 birth, and she was not born in Renfrewshire but somewhere else in Scotland. There is also an Andrew Clark in Greenock (can't tell if he's with this Mary) born Renfrewshire circa 1837, which fits with Mary Clark's child born in Greenock.
Freecen website does not have entire Greenock Census transcribed. This would have to be checked on SP and I have no credits left :'(. Sorry.
Looby
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WOW! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Jackpot baby!
Baby Marrion Douglas Mclarty/Maclarty (aka Sarah) is only my g-g-g grandmother whose year & place of birth I've been looking for for the past 2 years! She was the missing link!
Looby and Breaky, you have just joined up all the dots for 8 generations over 200 years!
You've also given me the real name of my g-g-g-g grandmother, the tailor's wife, born in Kilmartin, Argyll circa 1776 (but I can't find anything on her ... yet).
I did find baby Marrion on FamilySearch under Marrion Maclarty, b. 1812, Craignish, as well as the OPR Baptism.
I can't thank you enough. Do you get paid for this?! You should be! :-*
Looby, I've seen the ---- Mclarty household on the 1841 census too - 45-year-old-woman, first name unknown, a Marker (?), living with with 3 children: Peter (? ink smudged) McLarty (10), Alexander McLarty (6) and Jean McLarty (9) - the latter is on the next page. The children were born in Renfrewshire, the adult wasn't. Possible! Our Mary (Marrion's sister) was baptised in 1803 though, i.e. actually 38 in 1841. Still possible.
Also looking promising is the birth of one Alexander Campbell Mclarty on FamilySearch:
birth: 26 Jul 1817
christening: 30 Jul 1817 WEST OR OLD PARISH, GREENOCK, RENFREW, SCOTLAND
residence: 1817 Greenock, Renfrewshire, Scotland
Son of Donald Mclarty & Jean or Jane Mclarty - possibly our Marrion Mclarty's brother & sister-in-law.
They also had son named Archibald, b. 2/4/1844 Craignish, who might be the same Archibald living at Lerigoligan on the 1881 census!
Oh wow, what a day. I need to sit down now! ;D
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How about this:
On 30 May 1835, at Abbey Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland, a Marion Mclarty married one William Langmuir. No other details on FamilySearch.
Could this be the same person as our missing William Coutts?! :o
I can't take the excitement ...
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1841 Census on SP -
Living at Manse Lane, Greenock:
Archibald McLarty (60), a carpenter, born Argyllshire
Catherine McLarty (50), his wife, born Argyllshire
Sarah McLarty (15), born Renfrewshire
Manse Lane became Hamilton Gate. William Coutts is at The Vennel this year, which became the High Street. According to Googlemaps, these two streets are 0.3 miles apart, same neighbourhood. Meanwhile, the (?) McLarty woman (poss. Mary - Marrion's sister) with the 3 children are on Nicolson Street, also just round the corner. All within the Parish of Greenock West (Old).
The young Sarah Mclarty, b. Renfrewshire, probably a niece of our Sarah/Marrion Mclarty:
The only Sarah Mclarty I can find b. in that county around that time is a Sarah McLardy, b. 24/4/1821, daughter of one Malcom McLardy, a lawyer, and his wife, Janet Turnbull, baptised in the Parish of Greenock East. (On SP OPRs.)
Meanwhile, the elderly Archibald & Catherine - probably this Sarah's grandparents:
If the census age is correct, Archibald was born around 1781.
Found one Archibald Mclarty, b. 24/7/1782 CRAIGNISH, son of a Malcom Mclarty. No mother's name given. Another Archibald Maclarty, b. 20/9/1779 GLASSARY, son of another Malcom Maclarty and Mary Mclarty. (On FamilySearch.)
We know Mary Mclarty Clark (Marrion's sister) was living in Glassary around 1828-1830 because she married David Clark there and 2 of the Clark children were born there. The same Mary whose later son Andrew was born at Greenock. (OPR Births 15/5/1836 Greenock New or Middle). Young Andrew's birth reg. is significant because it reveals his father's job and David Clark was (drumroll) ... a FLAXDRESSER! ;D
Soooo, it's looking very likely William Coutts knew David Clark from work in Greenock in the mid-1830s, and met Sarah/Marrion through David's family. Hence William is living/working very near the McLarties from the Craignish/Glassary area about 6 years later (while wife Sarah/Marrion is in Arbroath looking after the kids).
I'm glad I got that off my chest! Now if only I could find William and Marrion's marriage cert. and the birth regs of William Jnr. and Alexander ...
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Have only had time for a quick look at some of the info you have posted Fide as I'm going out soon.
But just a quick post to say I don't think the woman with 3 kids you have found in Greenock living near William Coutts is Mary McLarty/Clark.
There is a couple who married 1825 in Greenock, Peter Mclarty/Mclardy and Isabella Mcdougall with three births registered in Greenock-
Rabina Glassford Mclarty 9/11/1825
Jean Stewart Mclardy 29/6/1832
Alexander Mclarty 10/6/1835.
Is the smudged Peter definitely the son and not the husband? The age could have been filled out wrongly.
Did you find the Andrew Clark born circa 1837 on the Census at Greenock? I wondered if Mary would be with him and for some reason her two older surviving children are back in Craignish with their grandmother.
Good finding Andrew's birth by the way - and imagine another Flaxdresser!
Will do some more digging later,
Looby
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On an another note, something has happened to my avatar. It's looking a lot darker than the original image I sent. I understand the problem with pixels and all that. I have tried looking for your technical support link on this website but can't find it. Any hints, much appreciated.
Still on the Coutts case! ;D
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Hi Looby
Looks like that avatar's been fixed! Thanks to the techies.
Back on the subject of the elusive William Coutts (Snr), I went back and checked the marriage certs of his surviving children with Sarah. The eldest son (William Jnr) married first, on 25 November 1859 (to a Lydia Baird); Alexander and Agnes married later. William Coutts, Snr. was already deceased at the time of William Jnr's marriage. So .... at least that gives us a definite date range for William's death: March 1851-December 1859 (he's alive on the 3rd March '51 census, and listed as married to Sarah).
But what happens to William after March 1851, before Sarah's re-marriage in 1855, and before his son William's marriage in 1859? ???
I've rechecked death searches for 1851-59: pre-statutory, statutory and Catholic burials, for all counties in Scotland. Zilch. On the OPR deaths up to 1854, there's only the Tanner, d. 1852 Arbroath, and he was born in Barry, and he married Ann Skea, so it can't be him. The only other William Coutts deaths for that period is a guy in The Shetlands, and another one in Banff, miles away in Aberdeenshire. I doubt it's either of them. 1854-59 deaths, there's only a one-month old baby of the same name, who died in Farnell, Angus in 1858.
My other wacky thought is: could William Coutts, Snr. have joined the merchant navy in the 1850s and died at sea? Hence his death record has been lost. I'm thinking that his son William Jnr. did leave the flax industry and become a merchant sailor (he was married at Guthrie Port) and sons tended to follow in their dads' footsteps ... It's a long shot. :(
Back on the McLarty family trail, I have downloaded the 1841 census which places the 60-year-old Sarah Douglas (i.e. Sarah McLarty's widowed mother) at Ler(i)goligan, Craignish with the two Clark grandchildren, aged 10 and 8 (Mary's children). The ink on Clark is smudged, but FreeCen confirms the names are Clark. Next to Sarah Douglas's name there is a coding I don't know the meaning of, under the column for "Uninhabited or Building". The code looks like "IU" or "LU". Next to that, under the "Inhabited" column there's a tick.
Not sure what happens to elderly Sarah, Snr on the 1851 census. We know she's still alive this year, circa aged 75 - her death is certified at 1855. Found a 77-year-old Sarah Douglas living at Stranraer, but this one was born in Wigtown, Wigtownshire - not our Argyll granny.
The good news is: I found the David Clark-Mary McLarty household in 1841!
In the quoad sacra parish of St. Thomas, Greenock, at Taylors Clop*(?):
- David Clark, 42, Merchant Seaman - not born in Renfrewshire
- Mary McLarty, 37, not born in Renfrewshire
- Duncan Clark, 6, born in county
- Andrew Clark, 4, born in county
- Margaret Clark, 2, born in county
This establishes that William Coutts's sister-in-law & family and he were in the same place at the same time.
I think "Taylors Clop*" might be Taylor's Close, which had an entrance on Hamilton Street. Found an old photo here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/98346459@N00/3899931540/in/set-72157607018434378
Taylor's Close became Wallace Place, 0.3 miles from the High Street (formerly The Vennel) where our William Coutts was!
Could St. Thomas's Parish be the same church where William Jnr. & Alexander might have been baptised circa 1833 and 1838?
Not a fruitless day anyway! ;D
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PS - Those kids living with Granny Sarah Douglas back in Craignish in 1841 are Alexander, 10 (the eldest) and Sarah, 8. I think the "Duncan" Clark (6) living with his parents in Greenock that year might be the same boy as Donald, baptised of the same parents 1/11/1830 at Glassary, Argyll, or Donald died, and Duncan was born around 1835 in Renfrewshire.
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Hiya,
Could be that William went to sea and died; his death being unrecorded. But probably a greater chance that he died in Arbroath and with a handful of children to support Sarah couldn't afford a headstone.
As there was no requirement to record deaths/burials many parishes just didn't bother plus a lot of records have been lost. Also William's family might not have been able to afford the fee to hire the mortcloth which could mean his death was never written down in the Parish Records. Sadly for you, there is probably no record to find.
There is always a chance the record has been mistranscribed but SP are very good.
I know I'm probably stating the obvious here but did you check for Sarah in 1851 Census as Marrion?
I would reckon if she died in Argyll in 1855 she would be there during 1851 Census. It did state on her death cert. that she's resided in the Kilmartin area since childhood? Have noticed entries on censuses where a woman is recorded as Widow Smith/Jones. Another long shot but could she be Widow Douglas/Mclarty?
And well done finding the Clarks in Greenock. That links William a bit closer to them. I think there were a lot of Mclarty's in Greenock at this time. Could be extended family.
Think you are right about the child Donald Clark - he is more than likely dead and Duncan is a different child. Remember Mary has 3 brothers - a Donald , a Duncan and an Alexander. So Donald and Duncan were not interchangable names within the family.
Are you still trying to link your William Coutts with the other Coutts in Arbroath? I think by proccess of elimination you can be 99% sure he is the son of Alexander Coutts and Isabel Leith/Leath. It would just be nice to have that eureka moment when you find complete proof.
Keep digging ;D
Looby
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Found the missing OPR birth for Sarah Clark (granddaughter of Sarah McLarty, Snr.)
Sarah, daughter of David Clarke, flax dresser, and Mary McLarty, born 17/3/1832, baptised 29/4/1832 at Greenock Old or West.
This is handy because it puts the Clark-McLarty family in Greenock even earlier, and we know William Coutts Jnr. (son of William & Sarah) was born around 1833 in Greenock according to his marriage cert and later census data.
I'm pretty sure the Clark-McLarty family living at Taylor's Close, Greenock, in 1841 is the right one based on the kids' OPRs:
- Duncan McLarty Clark, born 1/7/1834, baptised 16/11/1834 at Greenock New or Middle, son of David Clark, flax dresser & Mary McLarty
- Andrew Clark, born 7/4/1836, baptised 15/5/1836 at Greenock New or Middle, son of David Clark, flax dresser & Mary McLarty
- Margaret Clark - this baby was a bit tricky to find, but I found her! - born 10/9/1838, baptised 30/9/1838, at Greenock New or Middle, daughter of David Clark, flax dresser & Mary McLurdie.
Yes, Duncan & Donald Clark were different children. Donald was older, born & baptised in Glassary, Argyll (like the eldest son, Alexander), where the parents were married (have the marriage OPR). OPR Births 1/11/1830: Donald, lawful son of David Clark, Hi**ler, Lochgilphead, and Mary MacLarty, his spouse. If Donald died as a child, before the 1841 census, I can't find his burial. There's a Donald Clark death in Renfrewshire, 1836, but he's 73.
The eldest boy, Alexander Clark is on OPR Baptisms at Glassary too: 23/1/1829, son of David Clark and Mary McLarty, Lochgilphead. [No info on dad's job here.]
So 6 Clark children: Alexander, Donald, Sarah, Duncan, Andrew & Margaret.
I'm getting the picture that by the time Mary McLarty's second son was born (at Glassary) husband David Clark didn't have much work in Argyllshire - a "hi**ler" could be a higgler, meaning an itinerant haggler or small time travelling peddler or tinker [derog]. Between Nov 1830 and March 1832, David & Mary and the two boys moved to Greenock, where the other 4 children were born while David was working in the flax factories. Perhaps in 1841 money was tight with 5 children to feed (assuming Donald had died), the elder children Alexander and Sarah were sent to live with Grandma Sarah McLarty/the widow Douglas back in Craignish, and the 3 younger children were being looked after by mum Mary in Greenock. At some point between September 1838 (birth of the last child, Margaret) and 1841, David Clark joined the Merchant Navy - as per the 1841 census at Greenock.
What happens to this family in 1851, I haven't got that far yet. Can't find Granny Sarah McLarty/Douglas or Marion variants thereof in 1951, not in Argyll or Renfrew. Yet she died at Lerigoligan in 1855 and had lived in Craignish all her life according to the death cert. There's a mysterious gap in 1851.
Also tried looking for the elder grandchildren Alexander Clark & Sarah Clark in 1851. On FamilySearch: Alex might have married an Ann Campbell in 1850 at Craignish and then left the village. He's not on the '51 Craignish census. Don't know what happened to Sarah Clark, not on the '51 Craignish census either, maybe also died 1841-1851 or married & moved.
Anyway ... it does look very likely that our Sarah/Marrion McLarty might have followed her elder sister Mary to Greenock 1830-1832, and that's where she met William Coutts, the flaxdresser, and William Jnr. was born around 1833. Alexander b. there around 1838.
I suspect our Sarah/Marrion (wife or mistress of William) never saw her mother again from about 1830 onwards. In 1841 young Sarah is in Arbroath with 3 children.
As for William Coutts's death, yes, sadly, he could be in an unmarked grave in Arbroath and thus lost forever in time. The Alexander Couts-Isabel Leith research is another day! :)
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There is a Sarah Mclarty at Craignish on 1851 Census. Just did a check on Scotland's People.
But her age is 63- your Sarah should be in her 70's - but we all know how reliable Census record ages are. Could be someone guessed Granny Mclarty's age? Or she got muddled and said 63 instead of 73?
Just thought I'd mention it.
You have certainly acquired a lot of info now. It's amazing what can be discovered. I've never heard of a higgler but it sounds good for David's occupation. Times they were a'changing and places like Greenock and Glasgow definitely provided opportunities for those from rural places who had no work. The flax industry must have been booming around Scotland's ports during these years.
It's been an interesting journey. Good luck with the rest of your research.
Looby
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Thanks, Looby. I've seen a 62-year-old Sarah Douglas on SP in Argyll on the 1851 census, if that's the one you mean, but this lady is not ours. This Sarah is living in Dunoon & Kilmun, wife of a Dougald Douglas also residing there (so Douglas is her married name, and she's not the widow of Alexander McLarty) and this one was not born in Kilmartin. This one has different children (Mary, Angus) living with her. Doesn't tie up with our Craignish grandma. I can't find any 63-year-old Sarah Douglas in Craignish on the 1851 census, or name variants thereof.
It is interesting to find out about archaic professions like a higgler or higler. Also interesting how certain words like tinker/peddler/hawker have taken on negative connotations over time, probably because of the Pedlar's Act 1871 which restricted street trading. But in the early 19th century these travelling salesmen were providing necessary goods to remote rural areas for people who could not get to shops in towns or cities.
David McKie, journalist for The Guardian newspaper in 2008, writes:
"It's notable that some trades whose names may now sound disparaging were perfectly respectable then. A clod hopper was a plougher of fields; a huckster, a (quite possibly honest) street trader...A higler is an itinerant trader who higgles or chaffers in bargaining. His speciality may be to buy up poultry and dairy produce in exchange for "petty commodities" found in shops. There's a reference in Samuel Richardson's novel Clarissa to "an honest higler (who) goes to town constantly on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays", while a text of 1647 refers to "hucksters and heglars that buy and sell and forestall the markets": dealers in futures, perhaps."
Full article here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/01/britishidentity
Thanks for all good wishes and helpful suggestions. Still researching! ;D
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I've had 2 good suggestions about David Clark's early job.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?reportsent;topic=645109.msg4917932#msg4917932
Not a higgler, but a heckler! In other words, a flax worker or comber - one who teased out the hemp fibres.
Funny what heckler means nowadays! ;D
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Boo!!!! ;D
Sorry.....a heckler and not a higgler....heckler makes even better sense I suppose if David was already involved in the flax industry.
The Sarah I found listed on Scotland's People is a Sarah Mclarty in the County of Argyll in the District of Craignish age 63. I don't have enough credits to check her out for you unfortunately.
Of course the age is out for your Sarah as I said earlier but it could be an error made at the time.
Sarah is on 1841 as Sarah Douglas but given the way these folk seem to alternate their names :D it wouldn't be a shock if she is on 1852 as Sarah Mclarty. Then again.....there are other Mclartys in the area so she could be some-one different.
Looby
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Thank you for all your tips, Looby! I've seen the Sarah McLarty family at Lerigoligan in 1851:
1851 MCLARTY SARAH F 63 CRAIGNISH /ARGYLL 508/00 002/00 002
This puts the family firmly at Lerigoligan up to Sarah, Snr's death in 1855 and clarifies the issue of what happened to Granny Sarah McLarty and daughter Mary McLarty-Clark that year. So Mary Clark was widowed by then - husband David Clark, the heckler/flaxdresser/Merchant Seaman gone. There's also a 7th Clark grand-child, Mary (5), in addition to Duncan, Andrew & Margaret.
Curiously, all the grand-children at Lerigoligan in 1851 are listed as born in Dundee, which is where our William Coutts might have been born. So either those OPR births I found for the grandkids at Greenock are different children with parents of the same name, or the census data are wrong. Have to check the Dundee OPR births now...
Thank youuuuuuuuuuuu. ;D
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Hey, well done.
So that's Sarah and Mary accounted for in 1851. Poor Mary...mind you Sarah over in Arbroath is going to be widowed shortly too! Finding all these young deaths 30's - 50's brings home the short life expectancy most Scots would have had at this time.
Regarding the Dundee births of Mary's children ....that is a bit odd as some were born in Greenock and Craignish. Wonder why they gave Dundee as the children's place of birth? Perhaps little Mary had been born there and they just gave Dundee to the enumerator for all the kids? But as you say census data can be unreliable...just look at Sarah snrs age...she's only aged 3 years since 1841 to 1851. Now if only that could happen to me ;D?
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Just thought....all supposition of course - maybe the Clark family moved over to the East Coast when David went to sea or perhaps when William returned to join Sarah they left Greenock too. At this time I would imagine re-locating would be for work reasons, not personal reasons.
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Yes, there is a large gap of 8 years between the birth of Margaret Clark (1838) and that of Mary Clark (circa 1846) so it's not inconceivable that Mary McLarty Clark and kids moved to Dundee from Greenock during that period, perhaps to be near a port after David Clark joined the Merchant Navy.
Problem: on FS I found 3 stillborn babies/died at birth in Dundee with a dad called David Clark between 1838 and 1839:
- a female child, no name, b. & d. 25/3/1838 at Dundee, daughter of David Clark
- another female child, no name, b. & d. 28/12/1838 at Dundee, daughter of David Clark
- a male child, no name, b. & d. 29/11/1839 at Dundee, son of David Clark
Unfortunately no mother's name is given for these dead babies on FS, so it's hard to know if it's our Mary McLarty. Unless our David was playing the field?! :o
The problem is our Mary McLarty Clark is supposed to be in Greenock in Sep 1838 (where Margaret was born according to her OPR) and she's still there on the 1841 census, at Taylor's Close. So either the Dundee mother of the dead babies is a different one, or I've been barking up the wrong tree with the Greenock family. No doubt there were lots of David Clarks in Dundee.
Our David must have enlisted into the Merchant Navy between 1838 and 1841 - he's on the 1841 census at Greenock as a Merchant Seaman with Mary McLarty, and at the birth of his daughter Margaret (Greenock, Sep 1838) he is noted on the OPR baptism as a flax dresser.
Can't find the OPR Dundee birth of little Mary Clark, aged 5 on the 1851 census. I hope she wasn't baptised under one of those Scottish variant names like Elma or Merran! But even 'forenames that begin with' do not yield any results on SP. No results for a blank first name for a Clark child either (with dad as David Clark and mum as Mary). Nothing in Argyll or Renfrew. Nor can I find any Duncan, Andrew or Margaret Clarks born in Dundee of these parents at the relevant years. For now, I'm sticking with the OPR evidence that Sarah, Duncan, Andrew and Margaret Clark were Greenock-born until I find OPRs to the contrary.
As you say, census data can be unreliable. William Coutts Jnr. is on one census as born in Greenock and on another as born in Craignish. I suspect the heads of households often forgot where the younger ones were born, especially if they were getting on a bit.
I "forget" my own age sometimes too! ;D
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Found the death cert for Mary McLarty [Clark] - elder sister of our Sarah/Marrion McLarty/Coutts:
Statutory Deaths 1858, in the county of Argyll:
Mary McLarty, a pauper & a widow, died Nov 2nd, 1858 at Lerigoligan, Craignish, aged 55, daughter of Alexander McLarty, a tailor (deceased) & Sarah McLarty, nee Douglas (deceased).
Buried at Kirkton or Kilmorie as certified by Duncan Clark.
Death reported by Duncan Clark, son.
Registered 5/11/1858 at Craignish.
So Mary died 3 years after her mother, Sarah Douglas, in the same house. Meanwhile, younger sister Sarah [Allardice] who remarried in Arbroath 1855, probably didn't know about her sister.
Kirkton or Kilmory Chapel, also known as Craignish Old Parish Church or St Maelrubha's Chapel, now stands in ruins overlooking Loch Craignish.
http://web.undiscoveredscotland.com/ardfern/oldparishchurch/
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Poor Mary, dying a pauper.
The ruins of the church at Craignish look really interesting.
Back to William Coutts. Out of interest I keyed the name Wanlass into the 1841 Census for the whole of Scotland and got only 5 hits . 3 in Arbroath David, Isabel (Williams's sister?) and daughter Agnes.
1 in Inverness ( a David aged 15 a Private in the Army) and an adult male in Berwick.
1851 Census has no hits :o
There are some Wanless families in the Angus area but only 3 people in Arbroath with this spelling.
I would say calling your daughter Agnes Wanlass Coutts in 1844 definitely ties you to the Wanlass family living a few street away in 1841. Especially when they have a daughter called Agnes Wanlass. :)
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Re the Wanlass connection, I am related to David Coutts, baptised 1821, the son of Alexander Coutts. Alexander, together with William and Isabel, were all children of Alexander Coutts and Isabel Leith.
In the 1841 census, the Wanlass household living at Rossie(?) Street included Isabel Wanlass (formerly Coutts) and my gg grandfather David Coutts, who was her nephew. Also in the household was Isabel Leith aged 65, who would be Isabel Wanlass's mother.
William's daughter Agnes Wanlass Coutts was presumably named in recognition of his sister's married name.
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Hello Birdboot! Welcome! We are potential cousins?! 8)
I have seen the 1841 household at Rossie Street, Arbroath too:
- David Wanlass (45), a flax dresser, born in county
- Isobell Wanlass (35), born in county
- Agnes (? - ink smudged) Wanlass (15), flax spinner, born in county
- Isobell Leath (65), born in county
- David Coutts (20), a flax dresser, born in county
- Margaret Anderson (3), born in county (I can see that next door there is a big Anderson family)
The Agnes Wanlass in this house cannot be the same person as my great-great aunt Agnes Wanlass Coutts who was born later, 1844 - daughter of William Coutts & Sarah McLarty - but they could be related, as Looby suggests. (1844 O.P.R. Births 319/00 0040 0292 St Vigeans)
You are saying that this David Coutts (20) is the younger brother of my g-g-g grandfather William Coutts, who was about 25-28 that year, and their mum is Isabel Leath (65). So Isabel Leath gave birth to David when she was 45? Unless the age given for Isabel L. is just wrong of course. I thought my William was the youngest of the possible Coutts-Leith children, the 10th child. Hmm.... I'm a bit confused now.
Have you got the OPR birth for David Coutts? Where was he born?
I have seen a marriage cert for a David Coutts, a flax dresser, who marries Ann Craig at St. Vigeans, Arbroath, 31/12/1844. OPR Marriages 272/00 0070 0110. Is this the same David? Potentially my great-great-great uncle.
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Thanks, Looby. :-*
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PS, found an OPR baptism for a David James Neil Coutts, born 4/4/1821 at Craig, Co. Angus, (near Dundee). Son of Alexander Coutts and ANN COSRIE.
OPR Baptisms 280/00 0030/0007
I think I get it - David is a half-brother of William Coutts. Same dad, different mum? :)
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Great news Fide, a breakthrough!! ;D
Looking at the info I think David Coutts age 20 in 1841 is Isabel Leith/Coutts Grandson. Probably the son of John or Alexander Coutts??
There is a David Coutts born 1821 in Angus
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYN5-F78
and another
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XB6R-P9R
So David is the nephew of you William and also Isabel Wanless nee Coutts.
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Ooops I started my last message, got disturbed by a phone call, posted it and then realised you've found info I've posted too :D
But I don't think Alexander married to Isabel Coutts is the father with another woman. Isabel was still alive and kicking (although he could have been misbehaving ;D), but the couple do have a son Alexander born 1799 - William's big brother- more likely he's the father of David.
Phew!!! Sometimes the Scottish tradition of reusing names helps us on our quest, other times it ties us up in knots ;D
Looby
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To clarify the David Coutts situation, he was the illegitimate son of Alexander Coutts and Ann Cowie, born 1821. Alexander, William Coutts and Isabel Wanlass were siblings - all children of Alexander Coutts and Isabel Leith. Alexander junior was born 1800, Isabel I think was 1799 and William was much later - 1812 from memory.
Alexander junior married Jean Todd about 1828 and they had 4 or 5 children (I would need to check).
David Coutts, as you say, married Ann Craig and they had 7 or 8 children - sadly most of them died young and there is a stone in their memory at St Vigeans. Ann Craig died in her 40s and David Coutts remarried Jessie Sturrock. They had no children.
My g grandmother, isabella Coutts, married William Lyall and ran the National Bar in Arbroath.
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Hi birdboot,
Out of curiousity, which one of the Coutts siblings (children od Alaexander Coutts and Isabel Leith) are you descended from?
Looby
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Hi birdboot,
Out of curiousity, which one of the Coutts siblings (children od Alaexander Coutts and Isabel Leith) are you descended from?
Looby
Having a senior moment :D. Sorry birdboot...you've already said you are related to David Coutts son of Alexander son of Alexander.
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Just checked my records. Alexander jnr married Jean Todd abt 1828 and they had 5 children - Jean, Jessie, Mary Ann, Agnes and Alexander. Alexander (the one who married jean Todd) died at 55 Lochland Street on 14 Feb 1859 and is buried in the Abbey Churchyard.
David Coutts married Ann Craig in 1844 and they had 8 children, but only two survived beyond a few years - my g grandmother Isabella (1854-1943) and Jessie (1858-1937). There was a Mary Ann b. 1848 that I haven't been able to trace. Ann Craig died by suicide in 1874 and david married jane or Jessie Sturrock in 1875. A witness was Alexander Coutts - presumably David's step-brother. David died 31 March 1884.
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This is fantastic! O happy day! Birdboot, you've just ended a very long search for me! Thank you so much. And we are cousins too! ;D
I get it now, David's dad is Alexander Coutts, son of Alexander Couts! So David is the nephew of my William Coutts.
I wonder what happened to Ann Cowie, David's mum, and why was he living with his his aunt at the age of 20? Perhaps his mum died. It certainly makes for an interesting story!
Wonderful to hear all the details of the descending line too. Sad about Ann Craig's end. I wonder if the Alexander Coutts who was a witness at David's second marriage is 'my' Alexander, my g-g grandfather, second son of William Coutts. David would have been my Alexander's cousin.
I think I found the missing Mary Ann Coutts for you - your great aunt:
1868 Statutory Marriages - LEISK CHARLES & COUTTS MARY ANN, ARBROATH /ANGUS 272/00 0012. Daughter of David Coutts, a flax merchant, and Ann Coutts, nee Craig. Married at Abbey Path. Mary Ann, aged 20, was a factory worker and Charles Leisk, 22 a flax dresser.
Found David Coutts, aged 40, on the 1861 census at Arbroath. With wife Ann and the two little girls, Isabella, aged 7 (your g-grandmother) and Jessie, 2. David was a flax mill manager, so probably an influential figure in Arbroath at the time.
I have the birth cert for my William Coutts: 1813 OPRs at Dundee City, son of Alexander Couts [sic], a miller, and Isabel Leith. Witnessed by William Coutts, uncle.
Also have the OPR marriage for Alexander Couts & Isabel Leith, at St. Vigeans 23/8/1793!
It looks like my query about William Coutts has been completed, but we must stay in touch!
Looby, thanks for all your help and guidance too. You've been brilliant.
I only joined this forum 3 weeks ago, and in such a short time I found not one but two sets of great-great-great-great grandparents, with both your help and Breaky's. Amazing. I think our ancestors would be stunned at the power of the internet today, and I'd like to think they like the fact that their descendants can find each other across the world! ;D
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I am glad it has filled some gaps! The info has been very useful for me too. :)
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PS, on the 1881 Census at Dundee:
- Charles Leisk, head, married, 35, a jute mill worker, born Inverkeillor, Forfarshire
- Mary Leisk, wife, married, 33, born Arbroath
5 kids:
- David (?) Leisk, son, 10, a scholar, born Glasgow, Lanarckshire
- John Leisk, son, 8, a scholar, born Glasgow
- Jessie Leisk, daughter, 5, born Dundee
- Bella Leisk, daughter, 3, born Dundee
- Mary J****(?), daughter, 1, born Dundee
There's a 6th later child as well, on FS: Lizzie Leisk, b. 26/7/1881 at Dundee, St. Andrew's parish, daughter of Mary Ann Coutts & Charles Leisk.
Also found Mary Ann's death cert: statutory deaths 1924, aged 76 :o, at Dundee in the district of St. Mary and St. Peter: Mary Ann Leisk, widow of Charles Leisk, a jute mill worker. Daughter of David Coutts, flax mill manager (deceased) & Ann Coutts, nee Craig (deceased). Died of bowel disease. Death reported by Mary J. (or I?) Leisk, daughter.
GROS no. 282/01 0205
Hope this helps, Birdboot. :)
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I think Ann Cowie was still alive in 1841, living in Craig, Angus - she's on the census, if it's the same Ann. She's down as 40 here, living with a 73-year-old lady, not obviously related.
Found a christening for an Ann Cowie at Craig 11/1/1795, daughter of John Cowie & Christian Collison - on FS.
I suspect that son David Coutts moved to Arbroath simply for work; there couldn't have been much around Craig. In 1831 the population of the village was 1,552 [http://www.ancestor.abel.co.uk/Angus/Craig.html#pop]. Uncle David Wanlass was already at Arbroath in the flax industry, so... :)
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Thanks for that additional information.
Ann Craig's suicide was reported in the Dundee Courier, which stated that "her family enjoyed a comfortable position socially". Her husband had left for work at 6am and she was found with her throat cut and a razor in her hand later that morning. The Courier reported also that "Mrs Coutts had laboured under mental abberration for some years" - perhaps not surprising having suffered the death of 5 of her children.
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Poor Ann, what a way to go. As you said, she buried 5 children. :'(
I can imagine the family was fairly well off as David was a mill manager, which is nice to know because there was so much poverty in Scotland at that time. David rose above his humble roots in Craig and must have worked hard. Ann had 3 surviving daughters, one of whom you descend from and are able to tell her tale today, so her death was not in vain.
I was interested to discover that William Coutts's dad, Alexander Coutts, the miller (your David's granddad) was born in Birse, Aberdeenshire 16/9/1762, son of John Coutts. So we have Highland roots! Alexander Coutts (Snr) died of a fever, 21/1/1832 in Arbroath, aged 72.
There's a lovely old photo of Abbey Path here:
http://www.arbroathtimeline.moonfruit.com/#/1965-1969/4523624419
If you scroll down to Sep 1966, the news item reads: "Demolition commences on buildings at the corner of High Street and Abbey Path. This includes the 'Oriental Bar' whose proprietor William Coutts has taken over the 'National Bar' at the other side of the street..."
:)
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Couldn't find any marriages for a John Coutts in Birse in the 1750s, but I found one in Aboyne, which is just 3 miles away:
01/07/1754 COUTS JOHN & MARJORY GELLINDERS/ M ABOYNE /ABERDEEN 170/00 0010 0121
No Marjories among the 10 grandchildren though (children of Alexander C. & Isabel Leith). :-\
There's another John Coutts marriage in Aboyne in 1762:
09/11/1762 COUTS, JOHN & ELIZABETH MCCHRAY/ M ABOYNE /ABERDEEN
and we do have an Elizabeth among the grandchildren!
Note that this wedding is slightly after the birth of Alexander Coutts, Snr, who was born in September. ;)
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"Birse family history" - try googling this.
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Thanks for the info on Alexander Couts forebears, that is new to me. All I had found was his marriage to Isabel Leith.
The Birse link looks interesting, I will follow it up.
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Delighted that you got there in the end, Fide ;D.
It's amazing how much info you've accumulated in such a short time. I've had fun digging about for you :D. It was an interesting journey! And I'm pleased to have been a wee bit of help to you.
Good luck with you further research.
Kind Regards , Looby
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I was interested to discover that William Coutts's dad, Alexander Coutts, the miller (your David's granddad) was born in Birse, Aberdeenshire 16/9/1762, son of John Coutts. So we have Highland roots! Alexander Coutts (Snr) died of a fever, 21/1/1832 in Arbroath, aged 72.
How can we be sure that Alexander Coutts's father was John Coutts? When I searched for his birth I found quite a few Alexander Coutts births around the right period and could never be certain which was the right one. Is there a piece of evidence that confirms John as his father?
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There's a lovely old photo of Abbey Path here:
http://www.arbroathtimeline.moonfruit.com/#/1965-1969/4523624419
If you scroll down to Sep 1966, the news item reads: "Demolition commences on buildings at the corner of High Street and Abbey Path. This includes the 'Oriental Bar' whose proprietor William Coutts has taken over the 'National Bar' at the other side of the street..."
:)
That's interesting, because Isabella Coutts son, David Coutts Lyall, took over the National Bar in 1897 on his 21st birthday, under the terms of his father's will, and as far as I know he owned it until his death in 1947. I wonder who owned it between 1947 and 1966. I guess I could find out from licensing records.
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I was interested to discover that William Coutts's dad, Alexander Coutts, the miller (your David's granddad) was born in Birse, Aberdeenshire 16/9/1762, son of John Coutts. So we have Highland roots! Alexander Coutts (Snr) died of a fever, 21/1/1832 in Arbroath, aged 72.
How can we be sure that Alexander Coutts's father was John Coutts? When I searched for his birth I found quite a few Alexander Coutts births around the right period and could never be certain which was the right one. Is there a piece of evidence that confirms John as his father?
Hi Birdboot,
The 1832 death reg. for Alexander has his birthplace at Birse.
COUTS, ALEXANDER O.P.R. Deaths 272/00 0080 0091 ARBROATH
Assuming the age at death is correct, 1832 minus 72 = estimated birth year 1760.
On SP, looking at OPR births circa 1760 +/- 5 years, in Birse for an Alexander Coutts/Couts yields only 1 match:
16/09/1762 COUTTS ALEXANDER JOHN COUTTS/ M BIRSE /ABERDEEN 175/00 0010 0007
Father's name John Coutts.
Unfortunately no mother's name noted.
Of course there's always the chance our Alexander's birth went unrecorded, and the baby baptised above just has a synonymous name.
On the birth reg, this John Coutts was living at "Auchabrack" or Auchabrack Forest - the old name for the Forest of Birse, a remote and sparsely populated area.
"In 1724 the Earl of Aboyne enclosed the land around Birse Castle again and once more tenant farmers were brought into the forest. At around the same time, the Farquharsons of Finzean enclosed another area of land in the Forest at Auchabrack, which had previously been the site of a shieling for one of their tenants. This encroachment onto the common grazing led to legal disputes with the other landowners with rights in the Forest, which were resolved by the Court of Session in 1755. The ruling allowed the two enclosed areas to remain as the private property of the Earl of Aboyne and the Farquharsons of Finzean respectively, but reconfirmed the common rights of everyone in Birse over the remainder of the Forest."
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_of_Birse
Some interesting stuff on Birse Castle here too:
http://www.britainirelandcastles.com/Scotland/Aberdeenshire/Birse-Castle.html
Now reconstructed. It was burnt down by angry farmers in abt. 1640! ;)
We know that our Alexander Coutts was a miller. Chances are his dad was a tenant farmer?
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Thanks, Looby and Breaky. Couldn't have done it without you! :-*
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Another possible lead: on the same page of that baptismal register for Alexander Coutts (1762), I noticed this:
March 16, 1764 John Coutts in Auchabrack Forest of Birse had a son baptised named John. Witnesses: the congregation.
Possibly Alexander Coutts's younger brother? There couldn't have been that many dads called John Coutts living in the forest?!
But who is the mysterious mother... ???
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Coutts family grave at the Kirkyard of Birse, under stone no. 31:
- Andrew Coutts 1827
- John Coutts 1837
- James Coutts 1842
- John Coutts Oct 1855
- Robert Coutts 1860
- Isabella McCondach Jan 1867
- David Coutts 1878
- Williamina Coutts 1879
- George Coutts n.d.
http://www.anesfhs.org.uk/databank/miindex/miindex.php (freesearch)
Could the first John who died 1837 be our brother John, son of John & possible brother of our Alexander, b. 1764? It would mean he died at the age of 73. Off to check OPRs...
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That's interesting, because Isabella Coutts son, David Coutts Lyall, took over the National Bar in 1897 on his 21st birthday, under the terms of his father's will, and as far as I know he owned it until his death in 1947. I wonder who owned it between 1947 and 1966. I guess I could find out from licensing records.
The post-WWII period is tricky if you don't live in the area; not a lot of information online.
Arbroath Library has the old local newspaper 'The Arbroath Guide' on microfilm for the period 1844 - 1978, but you'd have to go to the library in person (or get someone to go for you).
There's also the Arbroath Year Book and the Eastern Angus Directory 1889 - 1956, also held at Arbroath Library. Again this requires a physical visit.
You could try emailing Henry Logan at the Library and see if they can do look-ups for you (perhaps for a small fee?). Email: arbroath.library@angus.gov.uk
(All that's on the council website: http://www.angus.gov.uk/history/libraries/arbroathlib.htm)
Or, how about contacting the current pub landlord directly? Postal letter/tel./fax only:
National Bar, 268 High Street, Arbroath, Angus DD11 1JE
Phone: 01241 879829
Fax: 01274 532920
There's also this in the public domain, from the Angus Licensing Board 4/10/2012:
http://www.angus.gov.uk/ccmeetings/reports-committee2012/LicensingBoard/LB47.pdf
Scroll down to (c)
NATIONAL BAR, 264 – 268 HIGH STREET, ARBROATH, DD11 3BZ
Names and Address of Applicant
Colin Ogilvie, 9 Fruithill, Kirriemuir, DD8 1JT
Type of Licence: On/Off Sales
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Birdboot, I've got something very definite for you on the National Bar, at least in the early Sixties, before William Coutts took it over in '66:
"Flintstone" wrote on the shoppie 10/9/2006:
"Apparently Bob Swankie and his father took over the National Bar after they left the Oriental. My cousin said Bob had the Oriental in 1960, (he knows, because he was a regular there himself, and as I said before, was a great friend of Bob's). So it could be either pub in the picture...
http://www.theshoppie.com/arbroath/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=506&whichpage=5
The photo being discussed is reproduced below courtesy of 'keith'. The bartender is Bob Swankie, later owner of The National bar.
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Thanks for the info. Apologies for straying off topic, but here is a lovely photo of Isabella Lyall (nee Coutts) and her family at the back of the National bar about 1896 (I love Isabella's hat). I was in Arbroath a couple of years ago and the balcony is still there in the back yard:
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What a fab photo Birdboot!
But I'm a wee bit lost....Where does Isabella Coutts/ Lyall fit in to the family? Who's daughter is she?
You are lucky you know who is in the photo. I inhertited old photos from my grandparents house after they died and I haven't a clue who are in some of them :(
Looby
Love Isabella's stylish hat too. Gives her an air of a modern businesswoman!
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Isabella Lyall was the daughter of David Coutts born 1821, who was the son of Alexander Coutts, born 1800, who in turn was the son of Alexander Coutts and Isabel Leith.
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Got it! David's the boy on the 1841 Census with the Wanlass family and his granny Isabel Leith/Leath.
So Isabella is one of his few surviving children.
Thanks
Looby
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Fantastic photo, Birdboot! Do you mind if I copy/download it?
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Fantastic photo, Birdboot! Do you mind if I copy/download it?
Of course, feel free to download!
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Fantastic photo, Birdboot! Do you mind if I copy/download it?
Of course, feel free to download!
Thank you! ;D
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Alexander junior married Jean Todd about 1828 and they had 4 or 5 children (I would need to check).
Hi Birdboot, have you got the OPR marriage reg for Alexander Coutts and Jean/Jane/Joan/Janet Todd? I found several children for them on FS, but can't find their marriage anywhere on SP. Are you sure they were married?
I've seen the death reg for Alexander Coutts (brother of William Coutts):
14/2/1859 at 55 Lochlands Street, St. Vigeans Parish, Arbroath.
Alexander Coutts, a [corn]meal miller, 59, married.
Son of Alexander Coutts, a meal miller (deceased) & Isabel Coutts, nee Leith (deceased).
Died of pulmonary consumption several weeks.
Buried at Abbey Churchyard, Arbroath, as certified by James Renny, undertaker.
Death reported by David Coutts, son, of 10 Abbey Path.
- SP Statutory Deaths 1859 Arbroath 272/00 0061
So Alexander was married at the time of his death, unfortunately the death reg doesn't tell us who the wife was. Can't find any later death regs for Jean/Jane Coutts or Todd either.
I found a marriage for an Alexander Coutts and a Jane COCHRAN in Arbroath, 1829. Is this the same Jane/Jean? This Alex is a butler from Aberdeen though, not a miller.
Any tips?
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No, I never found a marriage for Alexander and Jean Todd, I am afraid I just assumed because they had several children! Now you have mentioned it, I will do a bit more searching.
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Re: Jane Cochran, found 3 possibilities:
a) One born in 1812 in Greenock - seems a bit young to be marrying at 17 in 1829? But not impossible, and the Greenock connection flags up.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTNG-JZN
b) Another born in 1799 in Lasswade, Midlothian - this one would be about the same age as Alexander, but a Midlothian girl? And in those days 30 was quite old for a woman to be marrying for the first time?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTRG-5Y6
c) Another born in 1811 in Kirkcudbright.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY4S-2RX
None of these Janes have mothers with a maiden name Todd though. :(
Nor can I find any offspring for Alexander Coutts & Jane Cochran.
Curious.
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Re: Jane Cochran, found 3 possibilities:
a) One born in 1812 in Greenock - seems a bit young to be marrying at 17 in 1829? But not impossible, and the Greenock connection flags up.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTNG-JZN
b) Another born in 1799 in Lasswade, Midlothian - this one would be about the same age as Alexander, but a Midlothian girl? And in those days 30 was quite old for a woman to be marrying for the first time?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTRG-5Y6
c) Another born in 1811 in Kirkcudbright.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XY4S-2RX
None of these Janes have mothers with a maiden name Todd though. :(
Nor can I find any offspring for Alexander Coutts & Jane Cochran.
Curious.
In the 1851 census, Alexander was living at Lindsay Street and his wife was listed as Jean, aged 51, place of birth Lochlee. I have looked for births of Jean Todd in Lochlee around 1800 but can't find anything. I wondered whether she married Alexander as a widow, but can't find a marriage of Jean or Jane to a person called Todd in the right time frame.
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I'm thinking the Alex Coutts who had children with Jean Todd might be a different Alex.
Alexander Coutts & Jean Todd baptised a child named Susan Coutts on 17/2/1832 at EDZELL, Angus, and 3 years later at Edzell, they baptised a boy called Alexander, 4/2/1835. (On FS)
There's an Alexander Coutts born in Edzell on 10/10/1817, son of a Peter Coutts and Margaret Crammond, i.e. not the son of Alexander Coutts & Isabel Leith baptised at Murroes, and not William's brother or David Coutts's dad.
So the question is: who was our Alexander Coutts married to at the time of death, and who were their offspring, if any?
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I'm thinking the Alex Coutts who had children with Jean Todd might be a different Alex.
Alexander Coutts & Jean Todd baptised a child named Susan Coutts on 17/2/1832 at EDZELL, Angus, and 3 years later at Edzell, they baptised a boy called Alexander, 4/2/1835. (On FS)
There's an Alexander Coutts born in Edzell on 10/10/1817, son of a Peter Coutts and Margaret Crammond, i.e. not the son of Alexander Coutts & Isabel Leith, and not William's brother or David Coutts's dad.
Just had another look and have found Jean's death at 49 Lochland Street Arbroath on 11th Nov 1882. It calls her "Jane Todd" and states she was widow of Alexander Coutts, Meal Miller and the death was reported by David Coutts "stepson" - which is right as david was born before their marriage. Her father was david Todd, a ????? in Lochlee, and mother Elizabeth Todd, ms Christie.
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I'm thinking the Alex Coutts who had children with Jean Todd might be a different Alex.
Alexander Coutts & Jean Todd baptised a child named Susan Coutts on 17/2/1832 at EDZELL, Angus, and 3 years later at Edzell, they baptised a boy called Alexander, 4/2/1835. (On FS)
There's an Alexander Coutts born in Edzell on 10/10/1817, son of a Peter Coutts and Margaret Crammond, i.e. not the son of Alexander Coutts & Isabel Leith, and not William's brother or David Coutts's dad.
Just had another look and have found Jean's death at 49 Lochland Street Arbroath on 11th Nov 1882. It calls her "Jane Todd" and states she was widow of Alexander Coutts, Meal Miller and the death was reported by David Coutts "stepson" - which is right as david was born before their marriage. Her father was david Todd, a ????? in Lochlee, and mother Elizabeth Todd, ms Christie.
Ah! That helps enormously! Thank you for that.
So our Alex and Jean Todd are definitely the right couple.
But where is the marriage reg? ???
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I'm thinking the Alex Coutts who had children with Jean Todd might be a different Alex.
Alexander Coutts & Jean Todd baptised a child named Susan Coutts on 17/2/1832 at EDZELL, Angus, and 3 years later at Edzell, they baptised a boy called Alexander, 4/2/1835. (On FS)
There's an Alexander Coutts born in Edzell on 10/10/1817, son of a Peter Coutts and Margaret Crammond, i.e. not the son of Alexander Coutts & Isabel Leith, and not William's brother or David Coutts's dad.
Just had another look and have found Jean's death at 49 Lochland Street Arbroath on 11th Nov 1882. It calls her "Jane Todd" and states she was widow of Alexander Coutts, Meal Miller and the death was reported by David Coutts "stepson" - which is right as david was born before their marriage. Her father was david Todd, a ????? in Lochlee, and mother Elizabeth Todd, ms Christie.
Ah! That helps enormously! Thank you for that.
So our Alex and Jean Todd are definitely the right couple.
But where is the marriage reg? ???
Where indeed? And where is Jean/Jane's birth?
Forgot to mention that in the 1881 census Jane Coutts was living in Lochland Street as Head of household with Elizabeth Coutts, daughter, born about 1839 at Menmuir, Forfarshire, and someone called Jane Butchart, a visitor, aged 50, born Fettercairn, Kincardinshire - perhaps a relation?
Also: from Familysearch, David Todd married Elizabeth Christie 20 April 1781 at Edzell.
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A bit more info: in 1871 Jane Coutts (ms Todd) was living with Elizabeth Coutts, duaghter, and Susan Ruxton, sister, birthplace Menmuir. I found Susan's death in 1872 and her ms was indeed Todd, she was the widow of Robert Ruxton. The informant was Alexander Coutts, nephew, address Menmuir. I still can't find Jane/Jean's or Susan's birth in Menmuir though!
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Thanks, Birdboot, that census info and the death cert for Jane/Jean Coutts (nee Todd) are really helpful. So she was born circa 1801 in Angus.
David Todd and Elizabeth Christie married 20/4/1781 at Edzell, Angus. OPR Marriages 285/00 0020 0400 Also on FS: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTVK-J2X
Found a death for a David Tod at Lochlee, 17/2/1786 (5 years after the marriage above): David Tod, son to David Tod in Berryhill(?), was buried. OPR Deaths 303/00 0010 0074
I'm thinking this might be our Jean Todd's brother, died as a child perhaps.
Jean Todd's birth & marriage to Alexander are still proving difficult to find though.
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David Todd was a pendicler - that hard to read part on Jean's 1882 death cert.
"The tenant of a pendicle - a small piece of ground forming part of a larger holding or farm, often let out to a sub-tenant". (Per ScotlandsPeople) - thanks to "avm228".
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,646093.new.html#new
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1841 Census at Rescobie, Angus:
Dwelling at Dykehead:
Alexander Coutts, 40, Miller, born in county
Jean Coutts, 40, born in county
Mary Coutts, 14, not born in county
Jean Coutts, 11, not born in county
Alexander Coutts, 6, born in county
Agnes Coutts, 4, born in county
Elizabeth Coutts, 2, born in county
Janet Coutts, 5 months, born in county
This is handy because it tells us the two elder children, Mary and Jean, were not born in Angus around 1827 and 1830. I have a Mary Ann Coutts b. 31/3/1827 of the same parents at Fettercairn, Kincardineshire.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBHD-LLZ
So perhaps Alexander Coutts & Jean Todd met/married in Fettercairn?
Fettercairn is only about 5 miles from Edzell, where Jean's parents were married, and only 10 miles from Menmuir where Jean's daughter Elizabeth was born.
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Thanks for this info, especially the pendicler - that's a new one on me! I have something in the back of my mind about about a possible link to Fettercairn, but can't find the details at the moment. I think you could be on to something there! Right, off to pack ;)
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Can definitely rule out the Alexander Coutts-Jane Cochran marriage(e) in 1829, Aberdeen. I've just seen the banns; this Jane is the daughter of a Patrick Cochrane, a printer in Aberdeen. So not the daughter of David Todd from Lochlee.
I think I found a brother for our Jean: William Todd, christened 15/9/1799 at Lochlee, son of David Todd. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBDC-BHL
TODD, WILLIAM (O.P.R. Births 303/00 0010 0042 LOCHLEE)
Not sure if that helps, but it puts the parents in Lochlee around the turn of the century, if it's the same dad, David.
The only female J. Todd I can find for that period born anywhere in Scotland is the daughter Janet of a David Todd and a Margaret Gardener in Renfrewshire, b. 1795. But this David is a cotton spinner, not a pendicler or farmer, so it's unlikely. :(
I did find the 1881 household you mentioned, Birdboot, at 48 Lochland Street, St. Vigeans:
Jane Butchart, visitor, widowed, 50, b. Fettercairn, Kincardineshire
Elizabeth Coutts, dau, unmarr, 42, b. Menmuir, Forfarshire
Jane Coutts, head, widowed, 82, b. Lochlee, Forfarshire
Couldn't find any obvious family links with Jane Butchart from Fettercairn, maybe just a family friend. We know that Alex & Jane Coutts lived in Fettercairn in the late 1820s/early 30s.
Have also seen the 1871 household too, at the same address, with Jane Coutts (72) working as a houskeeper, Jane's sister: Sarah Ruxton, widowed, 70?, formerly a farm servant, b. at Lochlee, and Jane's unmarried daughter: Elizabeth, 31, a twine spinner, b. Menmuir.
1861 Census at 55 Lochland Street:
Jean Coutts, head, widowed, 61, a housekeeper, b. Lochlee, Angus
Agnes Coutts, dau, unmarr, 22, a flax mill worker - spinner, b. Edzell, Angus
Elizabeth Coutts, dau, unmarr, 20, a flax mill worker - spinner, b. Menmuir, Angus
Jessie Coutts, dau, unmarr, 19, a flax mill worker - spinner, b. Menmuir, Angus
Susan Ruxton, sister, widowed, 62, formerly a housekeeper, b. Lochlee, Angus
David Lawson, boarder, unmarr, 17, mechanic **? turner, b. Arbroath, Angus
So Alexander Coutts & Jane/Jean Todd had at least 6 children:
1. Mary Ann, b. 31/3/1827 Fettercairn, Kincardineshire
2. Jean (F), b. circa 1830 Fettercairn
3. Alexander, b. 4/2/1835 Edzell, Angus
4. Agnes, b. circa 1839 Edzell
5. Elizabeth, b. circa 1841, Menmuir
6. Jessie (F), b. circa 1842, Menmuir
7. Janet, b. circa 1841, ?, Angus
(Janet & Jessie are variant names; I suspect they might be the same girl).
Plus the eldest son of Alexander: David Coutts from Ann Cowie.
What puzzles me is that Jane's parents, David & Elizabeth Todd, married in 1781, yet Jane was born 19 years later, circa 1800? And sister Sarah/Susan was born around the same time. So Elizabeth Christie was either very young when she married or still having children when she was about 40. There must have been lots of other siblings in that 20-year gap too. But who are they and where are they? ???
The story continues to unfold! ;D
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While looking through burial records, I saw the death in 1873 of Jane Ann Miller Coutts, aged 2 and two thirds years in Arbroath, daughter of William Coutts. (You may have all this information already, but here goes).
B 1870 Jane Ann Millar Coutts, parents William Coutts/Jessie Constable
M 1857 William Coutts and Jessie Constabel - William's parents - John Coutts and Janet Gaudie
M 1821 John Coutts and Janet Gaudie
D 1877 John Coutts, widower of Janet Gauldie - parents Alexander Coutts and Isobel Leith
John and Janet Gaudie - three children that I can see
David b. 1823 - (This, I think, is the second David link that Looby mentioned on page seven of this query, Ann b. 1824 and John b. 1825
Hope this might help you in your search.
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Hi Breaky
Thank you so much. I didn't have all that information for that family. I did know that this John Coutts, husband of Janet Gaudie/Gaudy/Gady/Gardie, is the brother of 'my' William Coutts, i.e. both sons of Alexander Coutts and Isobel Leith. You're right, there were two David Coutts born around the same time: one born 1821 at Craig, Angus, son of Alexander Coutts & Ann Cowie, and the other one born 1823, son of John Coutts & Janet Gaudie. So the two Davids were first cousins.
Thanks a lot for your input, Breaky. :)
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A small clarification: somewhere else on this thread I said that William Coutts, Jnr. (son of William and Sarah) married Lydia Baird at Guthrie Port (1859) and he was in the Merchant Navy that year. I wrongly assumed Guthrie Port was the name of a port, but it's actually a street in Arbroath. It's near the ruins of Arbroath Abbey and continues from the modern High Street of Arbroath (on Googlemaps). It was named after a landowner Guthrie from the 17th century.
http://www.arbroathtimeline.moonfruit.com/#/streets-f-o/4519431865
Cultural titbit: inhabitants of Arbroath are known colloquially as 'Reid Lichties' (Scots: 'reid' = red) after the flame that burned from the tower of Arbroath Abbey to aid mariners. I guess 'licht' = light. :D
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Hi there,
My goodness there has certainly been a lot of information found on the Coutts family now!
Did you ever find a link to the William and Luisa Coutts I mentioned on the second post to this thread? Or have you found enough Coutts without worrying about them ;D?
Looby
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Hi Looby,
I think that that William is the son of Elizabeth Hutchison/Hutcheon and a John Couts, who also had 2 daughters: Louisa Couts, b.1823 Arbroath and Margaret Renny Couts, b. 1826 Arbroath.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBHB-RZB
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBH1-48N
Haven't got a birth cert for that William, but let's say his age on the census is correct, est. birth year 1821, which fits with the John Couts & Elizabeth Hutcheon 1820 marriage in Arbroath.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTJT-JP1
So who is this John Couts? He cannot be my William's brother, eldest son of Alexander Couts and Isabel Leith, because that John married Janet Gaudie. But I'm wondering if he could be the brother of Alexander, Snr. (dad), in other words my William's uncle. I mentioned earlier that I found a John Coutts b. 1764 in Birse (like Alex, Snr.) probably of the same dad living in Auchabrack Forest. Unfortunately there were lots of John Couttses all over Angus around that time, I found 6 born between 1761 and 1813, so Elizabeth Hutcheon's husband could be any one of them.
Or the William living with Elizabeth Hutcheon in 1841 is not her son but her nephew, i.e. my William (husband of Sarah). I know we've said the age is wrong if he's the dad of a 7-year-old but wrong ages on the censuses are nothing new. If it is him then he can't be in Greenock that year. Also, his mum is living on the same street with the Wanlass household.
Unfortunately the 1841 census doesn't tell us what the relationships are between house members, but I just checked the record again and it's interesting that the 20-year-old William is placed first on the house list, suggesting he is the head of house, while Elizabeth Hutchison (55) is last, after the teenage Luisa. Is that significant? I'm thinking a widowed aunt staying with them might be listed that way, rather than a mother/head of house.
A death record for Elisabeth Hutchison/Hutcheon might rule out or confirm William as her son, he might have reported it, but I can't find any likely burial matches so far on FS.
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Hi Fide,
I tend to think the Greenock William Coutts in 1841 is the husband/father of your Coutts family in Arbroath.
You could be right, the other William Coutts is probably descended from a brother of Alexander Coutts snr.
The fact the he is listed first on the 1841 Census above Elizabeth Hutchison (who may or may not be his mother) is probably to do with the fact the he is the only wage earning male and therefore head of the household. Elizabeth has no job recorded and therefore comes down in the pecking order perhaps ??? I'm only guessing?
Looby
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Re death record for Elizabeth Hutchison/Hutcheon ... try SP statutory deaths for forename 'eli*', surname 'hu*on' other name 'cou*', died Arbroath 1865, born 1786 +/- 5 years ... gives you one match!
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Thank you, Gali. I checked that one out -
Stat. Deaths 1865 HUTCHEON ELIZABETH JERVIS GRAY COUTTS GARVIE F 80 ARBROATH/ANGUS 272/00 0054
Interestingly, Elizabeth Hutcheon/Hutcheson married three times:
ELIZABETH COUTTS, widow of (1) David Gray (2) William Garvie (3) John Coutts - Starcher
Died 1865, January 24th, at 26 Glover Street, Arbroath Parish, aged 80.
Daughter of William Hutcheson, farmer in St. Vigeans (deceased) and Joan Hutcheson, nee Jervis (deceased).
Died of "general disease / years" certified by William Monro, M.D.
Reported by Elisabeth Peters, daughter, occupant, present.
Unfortunately this death reg doesn't confirm (or deny) that William Coutts was her son. Nor does it really shed any light on who the third husband John Coutts was. But it tells us there was another daughter, Elisabeth (married to a Peters), possibly a daughter from the first or second marriage, apart from Louisa and Margaret Renny with John Coutts.
I'm guessing Margaret Renny Coutts died as a child before the age of 15 - she's not on that 1841 census with mother Elizabeth, sister Louisa, and William Coutts on Rossie St.
Louisa Coutts married Alexander Chricton in 1843 at St. Vigeans.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTK7-RXL
2 children found for them so far:
(1) Alexander Dall Chricton, b. 1846 St. Vigeans
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XB6Y-JJF
(2) Mary Gray Chricton, b. 1849 St. Vigeans [named after her mother's first husband?!]
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XB6K-JYD
Both these children were christened a long time after their births. Alexander at 8, Mary at 5.
I agree with Looby that the Greenock connection with William Coutts (husband of Sarah McLarty) is strong, given that his two eldest children were born there in the 1830s, and Sarah's elder sister, Mary McLarty & Clark family were living in the same place at the same time. I think the Arbroath William Coutts (possible son of John Coutts & Elizabeth Hutcheon), flax dresser aged 20 in 1841, and the Greenock William Coutts (son of Alexander Couts & Isabel Leith), flax dresser aged 25 in 1841 are probably cousins. The Birse (Aberdeenshire) line might establish this.
Thank you very much, Gali, Looby and Breaky, for all your guidance.
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Her next of kin, daughter Elizabeth Peters could be:
Birth, 1803, Elizabeth Gray, Arbroath, parents David Gray, Elizabeth Hutcheon
Marriage 1851, Elizabeth Gray and Alexander Petrie (not Peters?) Arbroath
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No problem folks.
I have enjoyed the search ;D. Trying to peel away one Coutts from another....and the Mclarty clan ;D
Looby
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Thank you very much all. You've all been great help.
Found one Elisabeth Hutcheson's christening for a daughter of William Hutcheson: 16/10/1785 at Dron, PERTH. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X1J9-4JK
So the age on the death cert is spot on if she was born the same year as the baptism.
Can't find the first marriage to David Gray yet, but as Gali said, there is a child Elizabeth b. 1803 Arbroath of the same parents, probably the same Elizabeth who reported her mother's death. I think you're right, Gali, her married name is Petrie, looking at the handwriting on that reg again.
The second marriage to William Garvie was in 1805 at Arbroath.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTRJ-J26
The third, as we already know, to a John Couts, 1820.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTJT-JP1
The question is: is the William Coutts who is head of house with her in 1841 her son or my William?
I was hoping the 1851 census might find a William Coutts living with her (which would definitely rule out my William at 60 Lochlands St. that year with wife Sarah & children). However...
At 90 Cairnie Street, St. Vigeans 1851
- Alexander Chrighton, Head, Widower, 41, Flax dresser (Hand), b. Arbroath
- Alexander Chrighton, Son, 4, at home, b. St. Vigeans
- Mary Chrighton, Dau, 1, b. St. Vigeans
- Elizabeth Hutcheson, Mother-in-law, Widow, 70, b. St. Vigeans (Not Perth?) ???
Cairnie St, Arbroath still exists today, just round the corner from Rossie St where Elizabeth was in 1841. It looks like Elizabeth's daughter with John Coutts, Louisa, died in childbirth or around the time of daughter Mary's birth and granny moved in to look after the grandchildren.
1861 census (4 years before her death) she's living alone in Arbroath. In any case, my William is deceased by 1859 as per his elder son's marriage cert. But no other William Coutts with her.
Hmmmm...... :-\
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I've made an error. That Perth-born Elizabeth Hutcheson is a different girl. I think the census is actually right and she was born in Angus.
11/12/1776 William Hutchen m. Jean Jarves at St Vigeans.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTKQ-1MD
2 children found:
- Susan Hutchen, b. 1777 St. Vigeans, dau of William Hutchen & Jean Jarves
- James Hutcheon, b. 1781 St. Vigeans, son of William Hutcheon & Jean Jarves
and presumably some around 1785, an Elizabeth?
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Found him! ;D ;D ;D
The William Coutts living with with Elisabeth Hutcheon in 1841 is her son with John Couts, and the brother of Louisa Couts and Margaret Renny Couts.
In other words, not my g-g-g granddad William, son of Alexander Couts / Isabel Leith, who is in Greenock that year.
OPR Births:
07/04/1821 COUTS WILLIAM JOHN COUTS/ELIZATH. HUTCHEON M ARBROATH /ANGUS 272/00 0060 0016
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Well done!
Now you've definitely ruled that pesky ;D William Coutts living in Arbroath 1841 out of the equation.
I think you can say with certain that Greenock resident William Coutts is your ggg grandfather while his wife and family are back in Arbroath.
Looby
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FreeReg has an Arbroath marriage in 1799 for David Gray, a soldier with the Angus Militia, and Elizabeth Hucheon - a possibility?
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Thanks, Looby and Breaky. It's great when a breakthrough happens! 8)
It does look like that is Elizabeth Hutcheon's first marriage: 20/2/1799 Arbroath, David Gray, a soldier with the Angus Militia, bachelor, and Elizabeth Hucheon, spinster.
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Marriages&RecordID=57504
That's handy because it puts Elizabeth Hutcheon's estimated birth year earlier than 1785 (it's unlikely she married at 14), more likely b. around 1781. Her 1851 census, aged 70, suggests b. 1781 too. Can't find an exact baptismal match in St. Vigeans though. I'm guessing David Gray died as a soldier around 1803 (birth of baby Elizabeth), hence her remarriage to William Garvie in 1805.
I am curious about 3rd hubby John Couts. Is he my William's uncle, i.e. brother of Alexander, both sons of John Couts from Birse? Interesting that on FreeReg the 1820 marriage record has Elizabeth Hutcheon as a spinster ... not a widow?! :o
Elizabeth is widowed by 1851 (on census). On SP, I found one match for a John Coutts death in Arbroath, 1847, a miller, married, aged 63, signed by John Coutts (a son?). But Elizabeth's husband was a starcher on her death cert (unless he changed jobs later in life). And this John is quite a bit younger than Elizabeth. Not impossible, but it doesn't sound likely. In any case if he is Elizabeth's husband this one was born in Fordoun (Kincardineshire), not Birse - so probably not Alexander, Snr's brother.
Anyhow, whoever John Coutts is, it is good to be able to distinguish between the two William Couttses, flax dressers, in 1841, and it reinforces all the previous research on Greenock.
Thanks again. :-*
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Elizabeth Gray, daughter of David Gray & Elizabeth Hutcheon:
b. 8/9/1803, christened 15/9/1803 Arbroath
Father deceased. Witnesses: Mrs Barrie & Jean Gervis.
http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Baptisms&RecordID=213116
So David Gray the militiaman is definitely deceased by the time of Elizabeth's 2nd marriage, and granny Jean Gervis/Jervis is still alive in 1803. Looks like there was only child from the first marriage.
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I'm back after a month's break from this topic! ;D
I'm noting that something weird has happened to FreeReg. That link I put up on my last post now relates to a completely different family. Is someone on FreeReg shifting register nos. around?! :P
Back on the Lochee/Lochlee connection ... Lydia A. Coutts, daughter of William Coutts (Jnr) and Lydia Baird, is on the 1881 census at 10 Bridge St, Arbroath as born at Lochee - aged 5 on that census. On closer inspection on SP, young Lydia was actually born at Lochee Road, Dundee in 1876.
COUTTS, LYDIA AGNES (1876 Statutory Births 282/02 0188)
Lochee Road / parish of Lochee/Lochlee ... all very near. The point being that my William Coutts family (Jnr. and Snr.) and the Todd family (as in Jean or Jane Todd, born Lochlee circa 1800 - wife of Alexander Coutts, b. 1799 Murroes - my g-g-g uncle) have strong Dundonian links. :D
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Hello to everyone,
Have just finished scanning through all of these messages about William Coutts. My interest is because of my wife who is a descendent of Alexander Coutts and Jane Todd through their daughter Agnes, born about 1837 in Edzell. From my own research, and a visit with my wife to Arbroath in November 2008, I would like to comment on the following posts:
#29: The Agnes Coutts who married George Paterson 31 Dec 1863 is the same Agnes born to Alexander Coutts/Jane Todd in 1837.(http://)
#71: Alexander junior who married Jane Todd was born 10 Jun 1799 in Murroes to Alexander Coutts and Isabel Leith.
#74: Regarding Alexander Coutts burial in Arbroath Abbey Churchyard, attached are two pictures of the monument. It is difficult to read so here is what the inscription reads: IN MEMORY OF ALEXANDER COUTTS CORNMILLER WHO DIED 14TH FEB 1859 AGED 59 YEARS AND OF JANE TODD HIS WIFE WHO DIED 11TH NOV 1882 AGED 84 YEARS ALSO THEIR ELDEST DAUGHTER MARY ANN WHO DIED 2ND APRIL 1859 AGED 32 YEARS AND OF THEIR DAUGHTERS ISOBEL, SUSAN, AND MARGARET WHO DIED IN INFANCY AND ARE INTERRED IN FETTERGAIRN CHURCHYARD ALSO OF THEIR DAUGHTER ELIZABETH DIED 21ST APRIL 1923 AGED 83 YEARS
Hope this is helpful to someone. The previous posts were very helpful to me.
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Hello Carllafong, welcome, and thank you very much for that very helpful info! ;D
You've identified 3 other children of Alexander Coutts & Jean Todd that I didn't know about: Isobel, Susan, and Margaret, who died in infancy.
So Alexander & Jean had at least 9 children together - the three girls above plus Mary Ann, Jean, Alexander, Agnes, Elizabeth and Janet/Jessie.
You've also clarified that the Agnes Coutts who married George Paterson is definitely not Agnes Wanlass Coutts, daughter of William Coutts & Sarah McLarty/Douglas, who married William Livingston. The two Agneses were first cousins, as I first thought.
Your wife and I are distant cousins too. 8) Alexander Coutts, the corn miller, is my g-g-g-g uncle, brother of my g-g-g-g grandfather, William Coutts, the flax dresser.
Thank you for posting those photos of the family grave in Arbroath.
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P.S.
Susan Coutts, daughter of Alexander Coutts & Jean Todd, b. 17/2/1832, christened 10/3/1832 at Edzell, Angus. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYJS-5DD
One of the three daughters who died young.
This is going off on a slight tangent now, about 60 years later, not sure if relevant, but the name Petrie is flagging up here -
Francis Alexander Coutts, b. 1/8/1891 Arbroath, son of Alexander Coutts & Marion Petrie Coutts.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT6J-K9C
I'm just wondering if this Alexander Coutts - husband of Marion Petrie - might be the son of Alexander Coutts, b. 4/2/1835 at Edzell - son of Alexander Coutts and Jean Todd.
Too many Alexander Couttses! ;)
As Gali mentioned earlier on this thread, Elizabeth Gray/Grey m. Alexander Petrie in 1851, Arbroath.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTRT-S3L
It's getting very complicated! :)
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Alexander Coutts Petrie was born 8th March 1878 at Arbroath, son of Alexander Petrie - a journeyman baker - and Jean/Jane Carrie, who were married October 23rd 1863 in Arbroath. His sister, Marion Nicoll Petrie was born 20th June 1870.
The other children of the family - from Familysearch - are Jane Christie Petrie, Agnes Thomson Petrie, John Carrie Petrie and Davina Carrie Petrie.
Hope this isn't just adding to the confusion!
(Modifying the above to say there probably is no connection here - Marion Petrie married in 1891 in Arbroath, but the parents of Alexander Coutts, the groom, a patternmaker living at 35 Barony Street, Edinburgh, are Alexander Coutts, a bleach field manager, and Elizabeth Coutts, ms. Anderson).
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Thanks, Breaky. I think you're right, I can't see any direct connections with the Petrie-Carrie family either.
I checked the Alexander Coutts-Elizabeth Anderson marriage on SP. Banns proclaimed 28/8/1852 and 29/9/1852 in the parish of Barry (Angus), married 17/9/1852 at Westhaven, parish of Panbridge (Angus). The OPR doesn't specify who this Alexander's parents were. In any case, the son of Alexander Coutts & Jean Todd would have been too young for marriage in 1852 (aged 16/17).
However, I have found the following!
1861 census, dwelling at 20 Whites Place, Montrose, Angus
- Alexander Coutts, head, unmarried, 25, elementary teacher, b. Edzell, Kincardineshire
- Jane Coutts, sister, unmarried, 30, sewing teacher, b. Fettercairn, Kincardineshire
- Helen Jackson, boarder, 11, scholar, b. Benholm, Kincardineshire
He was quite hard to find because I thought Edzell was in Angus, not Kincardineshire! It turns out it lies partly in both counties! The elder sister Jane living with Alexander is the one christened Jean, circa 1830.
I found him again in 1881 living at The Schoolhouse, Menmuir:
- Alexander Coutts, head, married, 46, master of public school, b. Edzell, Angus
- Helen Coutts, wife, 39, school master's wife, b. Montrose, Angus
- Margaret D. Coutts, dau, 13, scholar, b. Montrose, Angus
- James D. Coutts, son, 12, scholar, b. b. Montrose, Angus
- Charles N. Coutts, son, 10, scholar, b. Menmuir, Angus
- Catherine E. Coutts, dau, 8, scholar, b. Menmuir
- Helen C. Coutts, dau, 6, scholar, b. Menmuir
- Jane J. Coutts, dau, 4, scholar, b. Menmuir
- Annie M. Coutts, dau, 2, b. Menmuir
- Agnes Smith, servant, unmarried, 16, domestic general servant, b. Craig, Angus
So, Alexander Coutts, son of Alexander Coutts & Jean Todd, and grandson of Alexander Coutts & Isabel Leith, married Helen Thomson Dickie on 28/4/1865 at Montrose https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTK3-98V
On SP: 1865 COUTTS ALEXANDER DICKIE HELEN L MONTROSE/ANGUS 312/00 0033
The stat. marriage reg notes his address at 20 Whites Place, same as his 1861 census, and it confirms his parents: Alexander Coutts, flour miller (deceased), and Jane Coutts, nee Todd.
Helen's parents: James Dickie, ship's master (deceased), and Margaret Dickie, nee Dickson
On the 1851 census the senior Alexander Coutts/Jean Todd family is at 109 Lindsay Street, Arbroath:
- Alexander Coutts, head, married, 51, miller (meal), b. Murroes
- Jean Coutts, wife, married, 51, b. Lochlee
- Mary Ann Coutts, dau, unmarried, 22, power loom weaver, b. Fettercairn, Kincardineshire
- Jean Coutts, dau, unmarried, 19, power loom weaver, b. Fettercairn
- Alexander Coutts, son, unmarried, 15, machine flax dresser, b. Edzell
- Agnes Coutts, dau, unmarried, 13, flax spinner, b. Edzell
- Jessie Coutts, dau, unmarried, 9, scholar, b. Menmuir
Daughter Elizabeth Coutts, aged about 12 in 1851, is not with the family at this time, curiously. Yet she lived to the ripe old age of 83 (d. 1923) and is buried with her parents (re: gravestone pic). She's for another day!
A fruitful day! ;D
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Death reg for Alexander Coutts, school master (retired), married to Helen Thomson Dickie.
d. 1902, Sep 12, at 3:30 p.m. at 3 Dalhousie Terrace, Brechin (Angus)
Married. 67 years old.
Son of Alexander Coutts, corn miller (deceased) and Jane Coutts, MS Todd (deceased).
Died of sarcoma, ******[?] valve, as certified by Norman J. ******
Reported by Charles N. Coutts, son, present.
Registered 15/9/1902 at Brechin.
- Stat. Deaths 1902 COUTTS ALEXANDER M 67 BRECHIN/ANGUS 275/00 0129
Photo & info about Menmuir School here, from the Menmuir Community website:
http://www.menmuir.org.uk/School/School.htm
The population of the village today is approx. 250 people.
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In 1851 the 11-year-old Elizabeth Coutts (daughter of Alexander Coutts & Jean Todd) is still in Rescobie, Angus, where the family was living in 1841.
1851 Census: COUTTS ELIZABETH F 11 RESCOBIE/ANGUS 317/00 002/00 001
The ink on that record is almost illegible, but I can just about make out that Elizabeth is a servant girl, living with a 66-year-old blacksmith and his family.
In 1861, she's back with her widowed mother and siblings in St. Vigeans, Lochlands St, a flax spinner.
1871: she's a twine spinner and living with her mother and aunt Sarah Ruxton (Jane Todd's sister) on Lochlands St.
1881: with her aged mother and Jane Butchart on Lochlands St. Elizabeth is unmarried at 42.
Her mother died in 1882. On the 1891 census, Elizabeth is living alone in Arbroath (can't read the street name), a ***[?] spinner (probably 'flax').
1901: At 78 Helen Street, Arbroath, 62-year-old Elizabeth has moved in with her younger sister, Jessie, who is now widowed, and 3 of Jessie's adult children, William, George and Jessie, and a niece, Mary Paterson. Jessie Coutts married William Melville Christie, Arbroath 1866. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTJT-DYY Jessie Coutts & William Christie had at least 6 children together, the three above and David, Lizzie and James (on FS).
1911: Elizabeth is in the same house at 78 Helen St, now alone, aged 72.
1923: Elizabeth dies.
In the parish of Barry (Angus), Elizabeth Coutts, single, d. 21/4/1923 at 6:15 a.m. at 10 Lochty Street, Carnoustie (near Dundee), aged 83, dau. of Alexander Coutts, corn miller (deceased) and Jean Coutts, MS Todd (deceased), d. of senile decay as certified by G. McCornell, M.D., reported by Jessie Edward, niece, present. Registered 23/4/1923 at Carnoustie.
- Stat. Deaths 1923 COUTTS ELIZABETH F 83 BARRY/ANGUS 274/00 0016
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Postscript: Her address in 1891 is 38 Howard Street, Arbroath.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?reportsent;topic=651898.msg4983036#msg4983036
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More on the Alexander Coutts-Jean Todd family ...
1) The eldest daughter, Mary Ann Coutts, b. 31/3/1827 Fettercairn, died 2/4/1859 at 55 Lochlands Street, Arbroath, of pulmonary consumption. She was 32. Never married. Death reg signed by the brother, Alexander Coutts. She is buried at Abbey Churchyard, Arbroath with her parents.
COUTTS, MARY ANN (Statutory Deaths 272/00 0112) 1859
2) The Jane Butchart living with Elizabeth Coutts and senior Jane/Jean Coutts (nee Todd) in 1881 is related - she is the widowed elder sister of Elizabeth, Jane Coutts, b. circa 1830 in Fettercairn, Kincardineshire. In 1861 she was a sewing teacher, unmarried, living with her brother Alexander in Montrose, Angus. In 1870 she married John Bouchard in Arbroath when she was 40 and he was a 70-year-old widow. There was no issue. The marriage was witnessed by her brother, Alexander, and sister, Elizabeth.
BOUCHARD, JOHN - COUTTS, JANE (Statutory Marriages 272/00 0096) 1870
John Bouchard was a Registry House clerk in Edinburgh, living in Canongate. Born in Perthshire circa 1799-1801, son of George Bouchard (a later record has the father as Robert Bouchard), an ostler (hostler), and Elizabeth Bouchard, MS McKenzie. John Bouchard was first married to Jane Mclaren in Edinburgh, 1863. At the time of the second marriage and until his death, John and Jane Bouchard (nee Coutts) were living at 31 Spring Gardens, Abbey Hill, Edinburgh.
BOUCHARD, JANE (Census 1871 685/03 039/00 001)
John Bouchard died in 1880 at the same address in Edinburgh, aged 82, of cerebral apoplexy. The death reg is signed by Alexander Coutts, brother-in-law, of Menmuir and Brechin. The following year, widow Jane was back in Arbroath with her mother Jane and sister Elizabeth.
BOUCHARD, JOHN (Statutory Deaths 685/03 0452) 1880
Jane Bouchard (nee Coutts) died in 1887 at 76 Rossie Street, Arbroath, of bronchopneumonia. She was 57. Death reg witnessed by brother, Alexander Coutts of Menmuir.
BOUCHARD, JANE (Statutory Deaths 272/00 0386) 1887
--
Footnote:
An ostler or hostler was a stableman or one who looked after horses, especially at an inn.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=551&994
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Aerial view of 31 Spring Gardens, Edinburgh, as it is today.
http://goo.gl/maps/Kt51S
In the public domain, from Googlemaps.
The house is not painted yellow, I just highlighted it! :)
Moderator Comment: Copyrighted image removed. To post a google map image, post a link (added).
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Hi there,
I haven't absorbed all your information yet but I think I can fill a gap for you. I am descended from Margaret Clark, daughter of David Clark and Mary McLarty. I haven't found her birth certificate but you have her born in Renfrew. The 1881 census has her born in Craignish but maybe they just considered that their home.
She married John Knox (he was from Beith via Blairgowrie) in Dundee in 1877. John was a licensed hawker/pedlar with two children (Flora and Samuel) from two previous marriages where his wives had died.
John Knox and Margaret Clark had one child, my great grandfather, William Hunter Knox, born in Dundee in 1881. Margaret died in Dundee when he was 11 and John before that. I know William H ended up in an orphanage and he was in the military. I have photos of him in uniform. I haven't had time to research it all yet.
In the 1881 census, John Knox and Margaret have the three children with them and also a daughter in law by the name of Maggie Lyons, (18, I think) born in Lanarkshire. The only marriage I could find to fit was a Maggie Clark marrying a John Lyon in 1880, both from Pollockshaws. There isn't a husband for her mentioned in the 1881 census. Does that mean anything to anyone ? I know daughter in law means she should be Margaret Clark's daughter but Margaret is marked as a spinster on her marriage cert. I 'm working on a different branch at the moment so there are still lots of bits and pieces to chase.
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Hi Elbeth!
This is wonderful news! We are related! ;D
I have Margaret Clark's birth certificate, 1838, in the parish of Greenock New or Middle.
- O.P.R. Births 564/01 0050 0232
Three of the other Clark children were also christened there, before Margaret. I think there were at least 8 children, Margaret was the 6th.
It's not unusual for censuses to have birthplaces wrong. Parents sometimes forgot where their kids were born! Or the census clerks made errors.
I didn't know anything about Margaret's grown-up life, husband or children, so it's really good to find that out. She would have been 43 when your g-g/f William Knox was born.
Is it possible daughter-in-law Maggie Lyons was the wife of John Knox's son Samuel, using her maiden name? If she was Margaret's daughter married to a Lyons she would have been listed as 'daughter'. Unless that's another census mistake. She might have been Margaret's illegitimate daughter, b. circa 1863 (well before the marriage with John Knox). Maggie's birth cert should confirm.
If John Knox died before Margaret, it should say widow on her dc. Unless they were never formally married of course. Do you definitely have the marriage reg?
I will look into it. Would love to see a picture of your g-g/f William in uniform. If you have a scanned image, please post here as an attachment. We have a couple of other cousins on Rootschat who I'm sure would be interested to see him.
By the way, I am related to you through Margaret Clark's aunt (her mother's sister) - Sarah or Marion McLarty, spouse of William Coutts. They are my g-g-g grandparents.
Thank you very much for making contact, and welcome to Rootschat! ;D
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PS, found William Hunter Knox's birth reg 1881, according to which his parents were married 20 Nov 1877 at Dundee. Also found the corresponding marriage reg. for Margaret & John.
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Samuel Knox, son of John Knox and Mary McComie, b. 1865 Blairgowrie, Perthshire.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQR2-68B
Mary McComie is one of the deceased wives of John Knox on his marriage reg with Margaret Clark.
1881 census at 3 Mid Street, Dundee, LDS transcription:
-John Knox, head, married, 50, pedlar, b. Beith, Ayrshire
-Margaret Knox, wife, married, 40, b. Craignish, Ayrshire [age rounded down; birthplace wrong or possibly born in Craignish but baptised in Greenock - there's a 5-week gap between her birth date and christening date on the OPR]
-Flora Knox, dau, unmarried, 27, factory worker, b. Blairgowrie, Perthshire
-Maggie Irons, dau-in-law, unmarried, 15, factory worker, b. Glasgow, Lanarkshire ???
-Samuel Knox, son, 7, scholar, b. Dundee, Angus ???
-William H. Knox, son, 2mths, b. Dundee, Angus [this is our blood link]
(FHL Film 0203483 GRO Ref Volume 282-3 EnumDist 12 Page 22)
I'm thinking Samuel's age has a '1' missing. He's actually about 17 here, if born in 1865.
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Sorry but you can't just decide there is a number missing -that's too easy. The first Samuel was born to Mary McOmie in Blairgowrie in 1881 and died immediately or was stillborn. The second Samuel was born to Betsy McDonald in Dundee in 1877. He had a younger brother, the first William Hunter Knox, was also born in Dundee but he and his mother died shortly after. The second Samuel was seven on the 1881 census. Flora and Jean from the first marriage also survived. Have to go, will get back to you.
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Gosh, talk about complicated! ;D It would have taken me ages to figure all that. Thanks for clarifying. So "7"-year-old Samuel (actually 4 if born in 1877) and 15-year-old Maggie are obviously not an item, which leaves the question: who is Maggie? She must be Margaret's (illegitimate?) daughter with her father's surname, but then wouldn't her relationship to John Knox be 'step-daughter' rather than daughter-in-law? She's too young to have married; on this occasion I believe the census when it says unmarried. So how can she be an in-law? Doesn't make sense. Unless there's another son of John Knox we don't know about yet.
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/regscot/getting-married-in-scotland/what-was-and-is-the-minimum-age-for-marriage-in-scotland.html
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The first Samuel was born to Mary McOmie in Blairgowrie in 1881
I think you mean 1865. ;)
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On SP, there are only 3 Margaret Lyons born in Glasgow 1860-70, all with married parents and none of the mothers were MS Clark. No matches for a Margaret Irons, same period. :(
Maggie must be on the 1871 census somewhere aged about 5 ...
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Aerial view of 31 Spring Gardens, Edinburgh, as it is today.
http://goo.gl/maps/Kt51S
In the public domain, from Googlemaps.
The house is not painted yellow, I just highlighted it! :)
Moderator Comment: Copyrighted image removed. To post a google map image, post a link (added).
How disappointing that Google, Inc. feels it has the right to photograph everybody's house on the planet and put it into the public domain, but no one else is allowed to copy or enjoy the photo - especially when my family lived there! >:( I am not using Googlemaps any more. Big raspberries to Google. :P
Also funny how nobody on Rootschat was bothered about it for the last 2 months. Interesting that a moderator's comments cannot be dated. Maybe there's a newbie on the block?
The good news is that photograph of the house in Edinburgh was seen about 4,000 times --- oooh, so dangerous! -- and they might have disseminated it to another 4K, 8K, 16K, etc. ;D
My interest was simply in showing where my ancestors lived. As this is supposed to be an ancestry forum, I thought that made sense and there is a vested public interest in it. Only Rootschat members could have seen it, so what's the problem?
Anyway, back to the topic. If you have any connections, please post. Otherwise, what's the point of a forum?
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By the way, can anyone explain to me how we are allowed to use Crown Copyright information?
The Crown - i.e the British Crown - does not seem to object.
And yet Google, Inc. does? Correct me if I am wrong, but Google, Inc, as an American company, has nothing to do with the British Crown.
I would like my rights re-instated, please. I want my photo back.
So that everyone reading this forum can see a visual link with a possible home. What's the problem?
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Copyright.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=346915.0
Crown Copyright is covered in the link on the post.
I would like my rights re-instated, please. I want my photo back.
Sorry , the image is Google copyright.
So that everyone reading this forum can see a visual link with a possible home. What's the problem?
No problem , a link has been provided.
Also funny how nobody on Rootschat was bothered about it for the last 2 months. Interesting that a moderator's comments cannot be dated. Maybe there's a newbie on the block?
If we spot copyright material it will be removed even if it is years later.
This decision was not taken by a "newbie" , indeed the owners of RootsChat were consulted to confirm our copyright position on Google images.
Thank you for your understanding on this matter ,
ev
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Not impressed. Sucking up to Google, boo.
If anyone wants the photo, I have it downloaded on my computer and can forward via email.
I am disappointed with Rootschat. I will not be on here any more unless someone of interest contacts.
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Just viewing your comments re William COUTTS etc - it appears that William COUTTS (1833 - 1881) may be my GG Grandfather, if I have my research right.
I have William COUTTS marring Jessie CONSTABLE on 26/6/1857 in Arbroath and had 7 children - one being a daughter Mary Anne Smith (Born 20 May 1860 and Died 6 Sep 1919).
I have Mary Anne Smith COUTTS marrying a Christopher MILLAR (1858 - 1897) on 5 March 1880 in Arbroath and had a 8 children - one being a son Alexander Buick (1889- 1931).
Often wondered where the name BUICK came from - but it appears that Mary Anne may have married an Alexander BUICK (b 1854) on 12 Dec 1903
Alexander MILLAR married Margaret (Maggie) S LAMB ( 1887- 1973) ON 18 MARCH 1910 and had 11 children - one being a daughter June Kydd KIRWAN (1929 - 2008) - my mother.
From comments on this forum, if I am correct I can now go back a further two generations on the COUTTS side.
Would appreciate any feedback and any other information that may help on any of Millar/Constable or Lamb side
Thank You - Judy Ruoso nee Kirwan
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Some photographs of Spring Gardens here http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NT2774 and they are released under a Creative Commons Licence so you can re-post them on condition that you credit the photographer.
(Google seems to have no qualms about appropriating images released under a CC Licence, and then claiming copyright of them.)
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Hi Judy and welcome to Rootschat :D,
I don't think Fide et Fortitudine has been online recently. I helped her dig out some of the info on her William Coutts although I am no relation to the Coutts.
Having quickly skimmed through all the thread to refresh my memory - can I ask are you descended from the William Coutts the son of William Coutts and Sarah Douglas/Mclarty born circa 1834?
Looby :)
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Perhaps you have you come across these links already?
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:1730540&id=I0009 (http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:1730540&id=I0009)
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/m/a/r/Philip-Marston-Rutland/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0811.html
(http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/m/a/r/Philip-Marston-Rutland/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0811.html)
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Lobby - Thanks for the reply, I don't think I am a descendent from the William Coutts who married Sarah Douglas, my William Coutts. :(
I currently have two William Coutts in my family tree - one born 1833 possible my GG Grandfather - He is the son of John Coutts and Janet Gaude.
He married a Jessie Constable and they had a son they also named William born about 1862 - who is possibly my G Granduncle.
Breaky - thanks for the links, I think I have reviewed these before but it always good to go back , have saved the links now.
Now have to see what I can find on my Grandmother's side - Lamb
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Hi Judy (Ruoso) and welcome to Rootschat!
I was so delighted to hear some good news. If you are related to John Coutts & Janet Gaude Gaudy/Gowdie/Gauly, or spelling variations thereof, then we are related.
John Coutts (husband of Janet) - your GGG gf, possibly you say- was the eldest brother of my William Coutts who married Sarah Douglas/McLarty - my GGG gparents.
John Coutts, bptsd 24/8/1794 St. Vigeans, d. 30/1/1877 St. Vigeans, married Janet Gaude. Their children that I know of were David (b. 1823), Ann (b. 1824), John (b. circa 1826), James (b. 1831), William (your William, b. 1833 Inverkeilor), and Margaret (b. 1834).
John Coutts (father) - husband of Janet - was a stoker at a flax mill at the time of his death in 1877.
He was the eldest son of Alexander Couts, a corn miller, b. 1762 Birse, Aberdeenshire, and Isabel Leith/Leash. They married 23/8/1793 St. Vigeans and had at least 9 children: your John (snr) was the eldest, my William was the youngest.
So your 1833 William of Inverkeilor was the nephew of my GGG g/f William (husband of Sarah).
If we share the same GGGG g/parents (i.e. Alexander Couts of Birse & Isabel Leith), that makes us 5th cousins.
I am over my Google grumps now! ;D
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I just finished reading all the post - what a journey you all have been on discovering the many William Coutts. I know have three William Couuts - the third born 16/7/1813 and son of Alexander Coutts and Isabel Leith.
Lobby - With all the great research you and Breaky completed, did the William Coutts that married Sarah DOUGLAS end up being the son of Alexander COUTTS and Isabel LEITH? I got a little lost.
If that is the case - he is possible the brother of John Coutts (1794- 1877) who I believe is my GGG Grandfather and that would make William Coutts (b 16/7/1813), my GGG Granduncle.
I have my Pedigree currently as:
GGGG Grandfather - Alexander COUTTS (1760 -1832) married Isabel LEITH (1776-1844)
GGG Grandfather - John COUTTS (1794 - 1877) married Janet GAUDIE (Died 1877)
GG Grandfather - William COUTTS (1833-1881) married Jessie CONSTABLE (1837-1875)
G Grandmother - Mary Anne Smith COUTTS 1st married Christopher MILLAR (1858-1897)
Grandfather - Alexander Buick MILLAR (1889 - 1931) married Margaret (Maggie) S Lamb (1887 - 1973)
Mother - June Kydd Millar (1929 - 2008) married Ian Desmond KIRWAN (1927 - 1984)
I love all the work you all have done, and it has given me some starting points and ideas on where to help fill in some of the gaps in my family tree. I wish I had started earlier when some of my Aunts and Uncle were still alive to help. We had very little information on my Grandfather's side as he died when my mum was only two from pernicious anaemia (dipping sheep and failed to look after a bad cut on his hand).
I think my next step in ordering some Birth, Marriage and Death Certificates to confirm the Census data.
I have Alexander B Millar on the 1901 Census; - It show him as a scholar aged 12 and the son of Mary Ann Millar at 41 Oglivy Pl with siblings Christopher, Mary Ann c; and Neil. One of my Aunt remembers an Uncle Neil.
My Grandmother apparently came from Farming stock and never lived in town – her Church was Arbirlot and her parents had a farm at the back of Arbirlot when he retired they went to Carnoustie to live and bought the Station Hotel – then sold and bought a house called Cedarlea in Millar St
Carnoustie.
Thanks for all you help - it sure has been an interest journey, which I will continue to monitor.
Judy
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Hi Judy,
Yes it was easy to get lost with all those William Coutts ;D
If I recall correctly (and after rereading this long thread) that we were 99% sure that William Coutts married to Sarah Douglas/McLarty was the son of Alexander Coutts and Isabel Leith.
William and Sarah had a daughter Agnes Wanlass Coutts born in 1844. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XB62-2NY The middle name Wanlass was the married name of Isabel Coutts daughter of Alexander Coutts and Isabel Leith. She also had a daughter Agnes Wanlass born c.1825.
David Wanlass and Isabel Coutts marriage 1819 - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTK7-X2V
It would appear William and Sarah named their daughter after her cousin and William's sister's married name.
Other than that because William died before 1855 and compulsory registration (no death cert with parents names) we couldn't beyond all doubt link him to his parents.
You certainly have a lot of info on your family to set yoy on your way to uncovering more ;D
Good luck and enjoy your research . And remember Rootschat is a great forum for posting enquiries and getting friendly advice and help.
Looby :)
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More Buick/Millar connections:
My GG aunt, Agnes Wanlass Coutts, dau. of William Coutts & Sarah Douglas/McLarty, married William Livingstone in 1865, Arbroath (SP Statutory Marriages 272/00 0169)
According to the marriage cert, William Livingstone was the son of George Livingstone & Jane Whitton, aka Jane Buick Whitton, dau. of Robert Whitton & Joanna Peacock.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XBHR-8PP
William Livingston & Agnes Wanlass Coutts had 5 children: George, b.1866, William, b.1869, James, b.1871, Sarah Jane, b.1874, and Agnes, b. 1878. The youngest, Agnes, married James Millar in 1900. Agnes Millar died in 1965, aged 87.
(The latter info comes from one of their living descendants, whom I was in contact with.)
And more on the Wanlass connection:
Angus Birth 11 Sep 1859: Ann Wanless MILLAR Father: JOHN MILLAR Mother: ANN DUNCAN dtr of Father: Robert Duncan Mother: Ann Wanles
From: http://www.wanlessweb.org/Scotland/MiddleName_Wanless.html
But I haven't joined up all the dots yet...
Judy, I can save you a lot of time & money on SP if you need any GROS ref. nos. for the Coutts line of the family tree. I have seven pages of research on SP, which cost a small fortune - in excess of 1,000 quid over 2 years. Just PM me. There are also several other living 'cousins' connected to this tree already on RootsChat.
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An added note on Alexander Couts (first known grandpappy), husband of Isabel Leith:
A possible baptismal date for him is September 16, 1762 in Birse. Son of John Coutts of Auchabrack Forest. Mother's name not given. Witnesses: John Cabanach and Shaw Cabanach [or Catanach?]
GROS ref. OPR Births 175/00 0010 0007 BIRSE
That's going on Alexander's death cert (which I have): 21/1/1832, which puts his age at the time of death at 72, i.e. born around 1760.
O.P.R. Deaths 272/00 0080 0091 ARBROATH
There are no other Alexander Couttses born in Birse around 1760. Birse parish baptismal records began 1761 with a Thomas Couts baptising a son named Andrew.
BirseFolk (http://birsefolk.id.au/baptisms%201761-1799.html) puts Alexander's birth at 1769, but that's not what the original birth cert. on SP says.
I may have already posted this info somewhere on this thread, but just a reminder that it would be interesting to find the parents or relatives of our 1760s Alexander Couts of Birse. He definitely had a brother because there is an uncle Coutts as a witness to the baptism of son William (my William) in Dundee.
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I've found a lot more on the David Wanless/Isabella Coutts household. Cross-referencing here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=644453.msg5201519#msg5201519
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I'm one of the Australian relatives of Alexander and Helen Coutts. They were my great grandparents. I took a photo of the headstone Menmuir Church about 39 years ago which reads: 'In loving memory or Alexander Coutts F.E.I.S. Born 4th February 1833 Died 12th Septmber 1902 Headmaster of parochial school of Menmuir. Also of his sons Alexander born February 1855 (date not quite clear) died ? July ? (i suspect as an infant - can't read the inscription) then xxxx xxx 'the old' xxx xxxx. Charles Nelson born 18th February 1871, died 11th April 1905. Buried Kew Cemetary, Melburne, (Australia), daughter Anne Murray wife of Andrew Ogilvie Died 18th August 1921 aged 41. Also of his wife Helen Thompson Dickie, died at Edinburgh 28th May 1925 aged 84 years. Their son James Dickie died at Melbourne 15th April 1935 aged 64 years. Daughter Jean xxx Macdonald died 1945 in her 65th year."
I did not know my grandparents as they died before I was born. Charles Nelson died aged 34 after being sent to Australia as it was believed it would be better for his health - I believe he had TB (consumption as it was then known).
My father Robert Alexander Coutts was an only child, born in Malvern, a suburb of Melbourne and died in 1987 aged 65. He was married to Lois Alison (nee Watt) who died aged 84 in 1998.
I am the oldest of their four children details as follows:
1.Jilian Gell (me) born August 5 1944 married to Christopher John Skinner. We have three children, Amy (married with two daughters) Simon, |Married with son and saughter) and Rob.
2. Katherine Anne born December 18 1945 married to Keith Nance (second husband) Daughter Katrina by first husband Geoff Mathers has one daughter.
3. James Garltley born April 1950 married twice has a son and daughter.
4 Alison Mary born March 2 1954 married twice has a daughter.
hope this is of interest.
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Hello Jillian Skinner!
Thank you very much for making contact. I believe we are distant cousins, although I haven't worked out the exact relationship just yet. Lovely to hear from you and thanks for providing the family info.
This site has been extremely helpful to me in tracing my family tree, which was a mammoth task taking several years and a lot of money. Good to make contact with living descendants too.
Happy New Year 2016!
Best wishes,
Fide
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Isabella Lyall was the daughter of David Coutts born 1821, who was the son of Alexander Coutts, born 1800, who in turn was the son of Alexander Coutts and Isabel Leith.
I believe a Charlotte Coutts b. 1836 (my GG GM) was Davids sister. I believe she married Charles H Manser and ended up in Ontario, Canada. If you can confirm? I have not seen the names of the siblings here.
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Sorry for the delay in replying, Jim, I have only just seen this post.
I don't think Charlotte is related to David Coutts. The name Charlotte doesn't appear in any other family records. I had a look on Scotland's People and the only Charlotte Coutts I can find around the 1830s are Charlotte baptised in New Deer (Aberdeen) in 1836, daughter of John Coutts and Margaret Innes, and Charlotte married in New Deer in 1839 to Alex Milne.
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Hi Jim
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Charlotte Coutts and Charles Manser show as having at least two children:
Phoebe 1860 died 1935 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JKF9-L26
Charles 1863 died 1921 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KFW5-G98
From son Charles' death reg, his mother Charlotte is showing as born in Canada not Scotland. What makes you think she was born in Scotland.
See below:
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See also www.findagrave.com/memorial/155502376 for further details. From this info, it looks to possibly be her father, an Alexander Coutts, who originated in Scotland. She also states in later census that her mother was also of Scottish origin.
Monica
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The 1851 census shows Charlotte at home with family at St Malach, Beauharnois County.
Parents Alexander Coutts, 60 and Isabella Lindsay, 42 and seven other siblings. All the children, with Charlotte showing as the oldest at 17, were born in Canada. Parents show as born in Scotland.
Monica
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I was responding to Jim Heubner's post regarding relationship with David Coutts/Alexander Coutts/Isobel Leith. They are part of my family line and as far as I know not related to the Canadian Coutts.