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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: maeeye on Friday 12 April 13 06:03 BST (UK)
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Hello Board,
I am hoping someone might be able to help me with a sentence in the attached item, I have tried and tried to work it out but just can't tell what it is.
The part where it says "I saw OBrien ???? on the back verandah of the watch house.
It's the four words after OBrien that I can't make out,,,
Thank you for any help given.
Mae
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I think O'Brien was "sitting on a form on the back verandah", a form being a bench.
Alexander
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Thank you Alexander, that makes perfect sense, esp as the time was 1923 and we still used many british expressions here......( I just googled "form")
Thank you so much.
Mae
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No problem :)
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This is what I think it says:
'...I then looked at my watch it was 10.22..... following Lewis. I saw Obrien sitting on the form on the back verandah of the watch house. He was dressed in 'brown' 'plain' or 'cloth' trousers and striped.../.../...
The shirt sleeves were rolled up and the shirt was open in front. His elbows were on his knees and his face was in his hands.'
Words in brackets I'm not really sure about.
I'm not sure why the squarer brackets appear when I ask for italics - ../../../ means I can't work that word out.
I hope this helps.
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I had thought this might be close
"he was dressed in plain clothes, trousers and striped frill? neck silk shirt?........
The word "frill" bothers me I must admit...
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Is it 'sitting' or 'supping'?
......... saw O'Brien supping on a form on the back verandah of the watch house ....
This is what I saw the first time I read it, now I'm not so sure.
Maggie
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Hi
I think it is .
striped fringi or fringy silk shirt
Sandra
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...high neck shirt....?
meaning, maybe, a shirt with a collar...dress shirt, not a collarless work shirt?
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'fugi silk shirt'
Definition of fugi silk:-
http://www.textileglossary.com/terms/fuji-silk.html
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Could it be "nipping on a foment".
Reason I say that is I think the first letter of sipping/supping/nipping is an "n".....I have trouble with it being an "s"
OBrien had just been poisened and he had been trying to drink mustard and water to help him vomit and also a Dr had given him a needle to help him bring up the poison...
I think "nipping on a foment" could be it.
Sadly he would die within an hour of the event we are trying to transcribe here on this posting.
Thank you all so much.
Mae
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I think he was sitting on a form ... it says at the end that his face was between his hands so that might suggest he wasn't holding a glass or a bottle.
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What a sad story maeeye and it makes this piece very interesting. I can see what you mean about it possibly being an 'n' followed by a barely visible 'i', however I cannot see 'foment'.
The 's's throughout are very variable.
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I agree with you Maggie, his 's's are somewhat inconsistent.
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If maeeye's thoughts on it being 'foment' then either 'nipping' or 'supping' would fit. :)
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As a foment (according to my googling) is an externally applied warm, moist poultice, would he be likely to be supping or nipping on it? Of course my medical knowledge is zero so I am happy to be corrected.
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OBrien had just been poisened and he had been trying to drink mustard and water to help him vomit
Could this mustard and water concoction be the ingredients of a handy mustard poultice? If he was desperate enough it might have been the only thing that was hastily to hand?
I suspect I'm getting fanciful and I'm still not happy that the word says 'foment'.
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I agree Maggie, I'm not sure it's 'foment'. Who actually wrote this account? Was it someone likely to use the word 'foment'?
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From Wikipedia.........
"a mustard plaster is a poultice of mustard seed powder spread inside a protective dressing and applied to the chest or abdomen to stimulate healing. In times past and present, the mixture was spread onto a cloth and applied to the chest or back.
Mustard oil irritates mucous membranes; therefore, excessive internal use has been known to cause stomach problems and kidney irritation"
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So that does seem to imply that it would be used externally, rather than being supped.
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sitting on a swing?
vv.
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Sniffing chloroform ?
Carol
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That certainly sounds possible, Carol, as the poor chap was dying.
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My vote goes for ....
resting on a form...
It bothers me though that the end of 'form' doesn't just trail off but seems to have a very deliberate letter after the 'm'.
And I wonder if 'resting' is the word that would have been used in this situation.
modifed: Now I've talked myself out of the word resting - is he ......suffering on a form...?
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I agree, Sami, that he is doing something on a form... presumably as he is close to death it would be something passive rather than active, poor fellow.
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Since we're on page 3 now, maybe I should explain why I said in reply #1 that I thought it says 'sitting on a form'. :)
The writer has lots of stray marks at the end of words, whether the last letter is a 'd' or 'e' or 'm' or whatever. The stray mark at the end of 'followed' (the word directly above 'sitting') drops below the line and bisects 'sitting'. This stray mark is somewhat similar to the one at the end of 'looked' three lines above, but the writer was more careful there.
The first letter of the word that is 'sitting' is almost certainly an 's' (comparing it to the other words beginning with an 's'. If you ignore the mark below the line from the 'd' in 'followed' which I described in the preceeding paragraph, then it looks very much like there are 2 't's in the middle of that word. That leaves us with pretty much only 2 options: setting and sitting. As he is on a verandah, on a form, with his face in his hands, the logical conclusion is he is sitting.
I agree that the end of the word 'form' is written carelessly, but many of the words in this document have similar stray marks at the end. The writer was obviously writing quickly. When I write quickly, I tend to not finish words properly either.
Alexander
P.S. I've included an excerpt again below so we do not have to keep going back to page 1.
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I have only just come upon this enquiry.
For what it is worth I agree with Freckneale that the words are ' sitting on a form ' ;)
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I agree, I have always been of the opinion that it was 'sitting on a form'.... What a sad story, poor fellow.
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Freckleneale has I think drawn it to a sensible conclusion and I agree ' sitting on a form'.
But maeeye - may I ask what the passage relates too? It's such a sad way to have to end ones life this way.
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Yes, please! Could you tell us more about the story and how the poisoning happened. It is such a moving tale and so poignant, I certainly would like to know more about the circumstances.
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Good Morning all
Firstly let me say thank you once again for all the help given on this issue. It is interesting to read the different ideas on what has been written.
To that end I went back over the other testimonies I have on OBrien's death and found another reference to the issue at hand. I will attach it to this reply. I think it is clear it says "sitting on a ? on the back verandah"
I think in view of all the help given that I would just explain a little of what this all refers to.
It was in 1923 that Constable OBrien was to appear in Court to face Departmental charges of misconduct. It was likely he would of been stood down from the job.
All that saw him on the morning of the Court case testified that he appeared happy and had made plans for the future in case he was stood down.
He went to the butchers at 8 am that morning and got meat for breakfast, he lived in Police Barracks and he dined with at least on other officer that morning.
He had called at 3 hotels that morning and had 1 drink or Brandy at each.
By 10 am he was gravely ill.
Numerous officers saw him on the verandah of the Police Barracks and all heard him say "I've got a bait". "I got a bait" "I have been baited"
The reports differ slightly in the telling of how he said he had been "baited" (my expression).
He was desperately trying to vomit, to bring up the poison. He was given a salt and water concoction to help him vomit, then the Dr arrived and gave him an injection that would also do the same thing.
However he started fitting and was having trouble breathing and it was decided to take him to the hospital in a motor car.
OBrien was quoted as saying“Doctor, can you get me out of this”? “Yes” the Doctor replied. “This is an injection to make you vomit. You’ve got poison”.
O’Brien then said “This is what a man gets for falling out with people”. He then said again to the Doctor “I will stand my trial for murder when I get over this”
When he was taken to the hospital he wanted them to drive up to the front door of the hospital so he could walk in, but he was too ill and had to be carried in.
He died about 15 mins after getting to the hospital.
So at 10am he appeared fit and well, by 11.40 am he was dead.
The poison was deemed to be strychnine.
His death was deemed a Suicide.
He was buried the day after his death.
His parents were never notified of his death, his mother read in the newspaper about the death of a Constable O'Brien at Cloncurry, she wrote to the Police Force inquiring if it was her son. It was.
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Thank you for the additional information. I would be interested to know where this happened, if you wouldn't mind telling us.
Regards
GS
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What a sad story! :(
I don't know all the details but I didn't expect the ruling of death to be suicide.
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Thank-you for the extra information maeeye - such a sad and intriguing story. It certainly raises questions.
Maggie :)
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I must admit I was surprised that it was adjudged a suicide. Very sad and not a little strange.
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Hi,
Looking again at the writing it now looks like to me.
Sitting on a futon.
Sandra
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How very sad that his parents had to find out about his death in this way maeeye.
I'm sticking with it being 'form' in both examples with a downward flourish of the pen after the 'm' in the first example.
Regards,
Maggie
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Thank you Maggie,
It was a terrible way for them to find out,,He had a brother in the Police Force and a Brother in Law,,you would of thought they might of been notified.
It is such a sad story.
I do think that the word is "form"...be it in 1923 a lot of expressions used back then are not used now, so that the word "form" seems strange to us, but back then was probably used all the time.
Regards
maeeye
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'Form' was always used to indicate a bench-type wooden seat when I was a child; I agree it isn't used nowadays (as far as I am aware) but then it would be immediately understandable. A 'form' was often a bench with folding legs so that they were easily dismantled and stacked.
Thanks again for the fulll story; does seems strange that a verdict of suicide was given in view of what he said about being poisoned.
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Reading the full story I now wonder if it says "Fitting" rather than sitting?
Carol
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Interesting isn't it the way certain words go out of use in some areas but not in others. I'm in the north of England and the word 'form' is still used in these parts. Not only can it be a folding bench as GS describes - the type used in schools and church halls, but also it describes a wooden double seat of the type seen in parks and gardens.
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That's interesting Maggie - I didn't know that. Just shows, on RC you learn something new every day!
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Well all I know is we have a lovely form in our garden - you would probably call it a wooden garden seat. If we eventually get a summer I shall be using it.
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Maggie & Greensleeves, down here in Australia for the most part it would be called a bench..or even a pew, as in like a church pew, I have never heard of the term "form" before this.
So yes indeed one is always learning.
Thank you.