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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: melmaree on Saturday 13 April 13 09:25 BST (UK)
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Hi
I am trying to find the deaths of William and Sarah Ann Brown. They were married in Tenterfield NSW in 1873 and had 6 children(3 died as babies). Their first son was born in Wellingrove NSW, their daughters were born in Inverell( Tingha) in 1878,1882 and 1884.
I have ordered their marriage certificate and one daughters birth cert which show William was born Staten Island New York around 1842 and Sarah(nee Byron) was born Maitland NSW 1845.
Williams parents were Henry and Agnes Charlotte Brown .
Sarahs parents were Peter and Eliza Byron.
I have tried looking on NSW BDM and QLD BDM, as 2 of their daughters married in QLD and can't seem to find any deaths for them. Maybe a mistranscription of their surname is why I can't seem to find their deaths.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Mel.
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I noted one of the children a boy had a german second name Heinrick. :P
These could be possible deaths
REF # 6779/1907 WILLIAM BRAUN AGED 6O YRS AT TIBBOOBURRA
REF # 15617/1909 SARAH BRAUN FATHER JOHN MOTHER ELIZABETH AT WATERLOO
ONLY possibles ::)
Neil
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Thanks Neil,
I just had a look at the funeral notices for these deaths and afraid they are not my William and Sarah.
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Is this the family you are interested in?
4056/1873 BROWN William m. BYRON Sarah TENTERFIELD
Children
21188/1875 BROWN William Henrik WELLINGROVE
William Sarah
13254/1876 BROWN William Walter INVERELL
William Sarah
14700/1878 BROWN Sarah E INVERELL
William Sarah
19143/1881 BROWN Peter INVERELL
William Sarah
19886/1882 BROWN Charlotte A INVERELL
William Sarah
23315/1884 BROWN Jessie INVERELL
William Sarah
Can you give the marriage details of these children please. That might indicate where to look for parents William and Sarah.
From marriage certificate, what occupation do you have for William, and religion...might be useful identifier.
William and Sarah Brown are rather ordinary names, and if William died and Sarah remarried, she could have another name at death.
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Yes this is the correct family.
On William and Sarahs marriage cert, they were married at the Wesleyan Parsonage? Tenterfield under the rites of the Wesleyan Methodist Church.
William had the occupation of a coachman and Sarah a domestic servant.
On their daughter Charlottes birth cert in 1882, William is listed as a Carter.
Their daughter Charlotte was married in Inglewood in 1908 but started having her children in Inglewood in 1897.
Another daughter Sarah Elizabeth was married in 1895 in Lithgow NSW
The last daughter Jessie was married in 1908 in QLD, not sure where.
William may have died and sarah remarried. On Charlottes marriage cert in 1908 neither of her parents are listed as deceased(not sure if they would have put it on there if they were)so presumably they were still alive in 1908.
Mel.
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Williams occupation on his daughter Charlottes marriage cert in 1908 was a Farmer, so he must have still been alive then.
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Yes this is the correct family.
On William and Sarahs marriage cert, they were married at the Wesleyan Parsonage? Tenterfield under the rites of the Wesleyan Methodist Church.
William had the occupation of a coachman and Sarah a domestic servant.
What about the rest of the information on that cert? Are there the usual blanks for NSW BDM mcs from that era?
May I offer the following thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Williams occupation on his daughter Charlottes marriage cert in 1908 was a Farmer, so he must have still been alive then.
May I gently suggest that it was entirely possible for William to be deceased by 1908, with Charlotte answering the question "father's occupation" rather than the often UNASKED question "Is your father alive". One way to try to confirm who was alive at what time is to look at the marriage certs for those aged UNDER 21 years, particularly the girls. They needed consent to marry, and consent usually came firstly from the father, and would only be sought from the mother IF the father was unavailable....
PS, adding, that 1908 mc should also note Charlotte's mum's then current surname .... as well as any former surnames and of course her nee name.... so hopefully (for ease of searchings) if the 1908 document has Sarah Ann BROWN noted as mum .... ;D
Cheers, JM
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There is a notice in TROVE re the estate and debtors & Creditors involving a Mr William GORDON BROWN originally from a property "Brownleigh" near MOREE.
This was in 1943. SEE
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17836923?searchTerm="William Gordon Brown"&searchLimits
There are several for same.
Also a listing for a Grazier at "BROWNLEIGH" Moree The property is still in operation.
http://www.dlook.com.au/graziers/nsw-northern-moree/burey-j-r-6668035
I don't know if this has anything to do with your Brown's but possibly worth a try.
A death recorded for William Gordon Brown at Chatswood NSW. ::)
WILLIAM GORDON BROWN, FATHER HENRY, MOTHER AGNES ROSS AT CHATSWOOD
REF # 1819/1949
This obviously would make him a bit ancient but do we really know William Browns birth year ???
Neil
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Why can't I find a birth for Sarah Ann Byron to Peter and Eliza ???
I have Emely and David at Maitland but no Sarah Ann ??? Also are you sure this is correct Sarah's parents because there is a Sarah Ann born Eden NSW to George and Eliza ???
Neil :o
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JM,
Thanks for the link to your post re: NSW BDM, very interesting.
There are no blanks on my copy of the marriage certificate, all the details are as follows:
Date/Place: 9th Dec 1873, Wesleyan Parsonage Tenterfield
Names/Surnames: William Brown/Sarah Byron
Conjugal Status: Bachelor/Spinster
Birthplace: Staten Is New York/Gargys Creek near Maitland(not sure on the Gargys part, is hard to read)
Usual Occupation: Coachman/Domestic Servant
Age: 31/28
Usual Place of Residence: Tenterfield/Tenterfield
Fathers name mothers name/maiden surname:Henry Brown(Deceased) Agnes Charlotte
:Peter Byron/Eliza Fitzsimmons
Fathers Occupation: (Nothing for Henry Brown) Farmer for Peter Byron.
Interesting to note thought that the handwriting in the Birthplace, Fathers name/Mothers name and Fathers Occupation is different handwriting to that on the rest of the certificate.
Neil,
The death for William Gordon Brown looks interesting, that would make him 107 going by the age on his marriage cert, would be amazing if he made it to that age. I'll try have a look at it.
I don't think I could find Sarahs birth record either, only going by the certificates I had which state she was born at Maitland.
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Sarah also had numerous brothers/sisters, however the surname was a bit haphazard in the BDM's, there is Byrom/Birom. However Sarah still does not appear to be on BDMs. maybe another variation of the surname.
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Did you have William : ???
V18532752 71/1853 BYROM WILLIAM Mother ELIZABETH FATHER PETER.
Neil
PS. The William Gordon seems to have died some time later in Sydney however I cannot find a death or birth for Sarah if indeed her name.
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Could you post the cert with that address of the creek near maitland, I live in the area and have never heard of what you posted. i may be able to recognise it.
Neil
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Yes I did have William
These are the children I have found so far.
I think I've found all of them on BDM except Sarah
Elizabeth Byron 1837 –
Julia Byrom 1838 –
Ann Byron 1838 – 1923
Mary Byron 1842 –
Sarah A Byron 1845 –
Peter Byron 1848 – 1921
Emily Byron 1850 – 1893
William Byron 1853-1897
David Matthew Byron 1858 – 1915
How do I post the certificate? Sorry have never done this before.
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Hi there,
Is there any mention on the 1873 Wesleyan marriage certificate of the NSW BDM officials reconciling their own records with Church Registers .... As an aside, may I please ask for the name of the clergyman and the witnesses ....
Like Neil, I also am fairly familiar with the Maitland area, and I too cannot immediately recall Gargys Creek near Maitland .... off to go through some mid 19th C paperwork for that district :) looking for possible locations
PS, different handwriting on various sections NSW BDM issued cert suggests that it is in the clergyman's handwriting for some parts, and his clerk for the other sections.... It is unlikely to have the bride and groom signatures unless there's been several NSW BDM reconciliation records checked..... Some of the Methodist clergy were more tolerant of the civil authorities regulations, but circa 1873, that's when NSW Divorce commences and it is still well that's BEFORE the 1879 Clergy Returns Act ..... http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/celebrate/early.html
Cheers, JM
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Thank you both for all your help so far.
The witnesses on marriage cert are W Williams and Agnes Williams. The clergyman is Joseph Hopkins.
The cert I have is from BDM, but can't see anything on there about reconciling.
Can't be sure it is Gargys Creek, but definitely looks like ???gys and looks like Creek to me but the writing is quite hard to understand.
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Hi, You can scan the cert if you have the facility save it and attach it to you post. You may need to try for the highest resolution from your scanner?
Neil
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If you have an electronic copy of the marriage cert, (digitised photo of it works too) perhaps you could take a SNIP of that part of the electronic copy and ATTACH that to your post?
Here's the link from RChat's HELP section re attaching thingys to posts... Best NOT to attach the entire document as that could cause copyright issues for RChat....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130922.0.html
So I am attaching a snip I took of this post BEFORE I typed up this line. I saved it as a jpeg and then attached it here
Cheers, JM
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I am trying to figure out how to do a snapshot of my marriage certificate but not having much luck. I've had a look at that link, but am trying to figure it out. Hopefully will figure it out shortly.
Thanks
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I think it would be useful to you to account for daughters of William Brown and Sarah Ann Byron as one or both of them might be cared for in their old age by a daughter. If you can find a burial for daughters, the parent/parents might be buried at the same place.
To that end, who did Charlotte marry, 1908...I cannot see anything in QLD or NSW.
BDM QLD marriage
1908/C2988 KHAN Adalat m. BROWN Jessie
births
1910/C13118 Ethel Martha KHAN Adalat Jessie Brown
1910/C13119 Galarm Gelarlarny KHAN Adalat Jessie Brown
1910/C13119 Golarm Gelarlarny KHAN Adalat Jessie Brown
1910/C13034 Boguin-Noor Madge KHAN Adalat Jessie Brown
deaths
1956/B13630 Boguin-Noor Madge KHAN Adalat Jessie Brown
1917/C3653 Edwin KHAN Adalat Khan Jessie Ann Brown
1940/C1721 Adalat KHAN Buny Moad Berber
1953/B42294 Jessie Ann KHAN William Brown Sarah Byron
Courier Mail 2 Mar 1953
KHAN, Mrs. Jessie Ann. 23 O'Connell Terrace, Bowen Hills. — Relatives and Friends of Mr. and Mrs. R. Austin and Family, Mr. and Mrs. R. Khan. Mr. W. Sounders and Family, Madge, Lorna, and Jack Khan, are respectfully advised that the Funeral of their beloved Mother, Mother-in-law, and Grandmother, Is appointed to leave the Parlour, 400 Wickham Street, Valley, Tomorrow (Tuesday) for Mt. Thompson Crematorium, on conclusion of service commencing at 10.45 a.m.
BDM QLD marriage
1922/C1857 SAUNDERS William m. KHAN Ethel Martha
1934/C365 AUSTIN Robert Sidney m. KHAN Marian Charlotte
BDM NSW marriage
7207/1895 SMITH Robert J F m. BROWN Sarah E LITHGOW
BDM NSW births
13705/1896 SMITH Charles S parents William Sarah LITHGOW
32617/1900 SMITH Ronald E parents William Sarah LITHGOW
31340/1903 SMITH Gladys E parents William Sarah LITHGOW
4702/1906 SMITH Walter B parents William Sarah C LITHGOW
38104/1909 SMITH Laurence R parents William Sarah C LITHGOW
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Don't panic ..... it can be tricky when you first try it ..... It took me for ever to learn how to attach thingys to RChat posts .... Then once you can, you look in the mirror and have a laugh and giggle...
Cheers, JM
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Ok I think I might have the attachment. Fingers crossed. Hopefully it will work.
Wivenhoe, yes they are the 2 daughters. Charlotte married Charles Mohammed Deen in Inglewood in 1908. For some reason the record is not on QLD BDM website, however I did find it on ancestry and ordered the certificate from that. Makes it hard sometimes if the marriage isn't even on the QLD BDM online search. Charlotte died in Penrith in the 1960's.
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Did you have William : ???
V18532752 71/1853 BYROM WILLIAM Mother ELIZABETH FATHER PETER.
Neil
PS. The William Gordon seems to have died some time later in Sydney however I cannot find a death or birth for Sarah if indeed her name.
Did you have William : ???
V18532752 71/1853 BYROM WILLIAM Mother ELIZABETH FATHER PETER.
Neil
PS. The William Gordon seems to have died some time later in Sydney however I cannot find a death or birth for Sarah if indeed her name.
Perhaps the NSW BDM entry could be associated with the following
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT8N-XLK
Well done for posting that snip..... Could be Gregg's Creek ..... Neil will know more than my OH ..... shhhhhhhhhh .... please don't tell my OH I wrote that :)
Cheers, JM
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Hmm,
All I have come up with is Peter BYROM married Eliza FITZSIMMONS at the Church of England Maitland in 1836. REF # V1836445 20/1836.
Maitland did not become a Parish until 1838 but services would have been held probably at one of the many chapels built on homesteads in the area.
I have never heard of Greggs Creek and thats what it looks like. With three large Rivers running through the area close by Maitland there are literally hundreds of creeks. Many of these have never been officially named, the one through my property only recently done to commemorate the family who settled here mid 1800's. They even changed my address last week by nameing the Crown Lane and giving me a street address. :o I have looked through historical records of Maitland for a referance to the "GREGG" family with no luck.
Given the year 1836 Mr BYROM OR Miss FITZSIMMONS or both could have had a criminal history and may be transportees. ::) I have not checked as I am unsure if you have done this area prior.
I am a little surprised to find your Sarah born Maitland moving as far as the Moree Plains area ???
Neil
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Hi
Peter and Eliza were married at Glendon, information on Peter on this site http://www.jenwilletts.com/search.htm
Muss
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The C OF E area covered from Maitland and up to Glendon which is near Dungog or more correctly between Dungog and Gloucester. HUGE area. There are a few marriages of people by the name of FITZSIMMONS and BYROM/N in the Dungog area. There are Fitzsimmons still in this area near me.
no way of knowing if the same family though. ::)
Neil ;D
MODIFIED. I wonder if it was nearer GLENDON BROOK which is between Maitland and Singleton.
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Hi
I think both Peter and Eliza were convicts
Muss
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Peter.
Onboard Speke 5th August, 1826 arriving at New South Wales
Cannot find Eliza?
Neil
MODIFIED ::) What a naughty little Girl Eliza was. Plenty about her on Jen Willetts per Muss.
http://www.jenwilletts.com/searchaction.php
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Hi
Eliza ship Andromeda 1834
Muss
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I could be (as usual) a long long way off track, but there was a Greg’s Flat in 1870. This was in the then Dungog Police District, and according to the 1870 NSW ER for THE WILLIAMS, this was the residential address for a chap named Angus McFadyen and also a chap named Edward Stanton, junior …. May I note that Edward Stanton, senior is on that same roll, and his residence was at Canningalla (also in Dungog PD)
Same 1870 roll there’s a Jeremiah BYRON residence Bendolba (Dungog PD) …. ….. …. So I then looked up Grevilles 1875 PO directory for Dungog ….. Jeremiah BYRON, farmer, Bendolba and I note that there’s none with the surname BROWN listed in the directory as at Dungog
Cheers, JM
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hi
From information contained in book "Pioneers, Settlers and Families of Northern NSW Volume 1 by Roma Waldron.
Sarah Byron, daughter of Peter Byron , wife of William Brown died 1907, Waterloo, Glen Innes.
Muss
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Hi
Waterloo http://www.landmarkharcourts.com.au/Property/506007/LGN2496/Waterloo-Waterloo-Road-Matheson-via
Muss
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I wonder how much. ??? 8) ::)
Neil :P
Well found by the way Muss.
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Well found Muss
The NSW ER for 1903 for NEW ENGLAND has a polling place "Waterloo Road"....
The selectors for Waterloo were
Patrick DUNN,
Lewis James HUGNO,
James KENNY,
The station manager at Waterloo was Norman Napiar DANGAR (ummm.... family surname on my OH's side .... note to self, JM to investigate later)
There were 38 people enrolled there. NONE enrolled with surnames BYRON or BROWN
Cheers, JM (Neil it would be on the market for 'a pretty penny')
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Now there's a further mystery ....
I can see at the online index the registration for a Sarah BROWN's death .... registered at Waterloo. BUT I recognise that "Waterloo" as one of the Sydney NSW BDM districts rather than the Glen Innes district .... That Sarah was aged 63 (thus indicating the dc does not have either of her parents details recorded) as per the index and her second name commenced with "J" .... NSW BDM ref 11680
Cheers, JM
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hi
I think it is the Sarah A reg Grafton mother Mary ( Sarah had a sister Mary)
Muss
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Sorry Muss, dont think it is the Lady from Grafton. SEE
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/61441859?
Neil
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Hi
Thanks Neil . I have checked all the other dates of death of members of the family contained in the information. All seem correct, wonder if the death of Sarah was registered ?
Muss
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Hi there,
I understand that there are quite a number of instances where civil registrations of deaths did not occur in the years prior to WWI, particularly in rural areas where there had been an inquest or a police enquiry which resulted in the Police/Coroner issuing an authority to bury. The regulations were not specific, so it was not obvious as to who was responsible for registering a death with the deputy registrar, which was often a part time postion, occupied by clerks attached to the local court houses. Of course in rural areas, the court houses were next to the police station and the crown sgt's residence and the lock up. So, if the Police issued a burial order, then the funeral director and/or the clergyman may well have expected that the issuing officer would also complete the paperwork and register the death with the clerk at the court house ..... ::)
It was entirely possible that in small townships and sparsely populated districts that years and years would pass before an inquest was needed to be held in that area, so the locals would not be familiar with the regulations. The regulations changed circa 1914 :)
Cheers, JM
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I think it would be useful to follow the daughters to see if there is a clue to later life of their parents.
What BDM certificates do you have for this family?
Do you have other information that would be useful to us in researching this family?
7207/1895 SMITH Robert J F m. BROWN Sarah E LITHGOW Is this the couple?
(and the children I listed at reply #19 are incorrect...father William not Robert).
Brown and Smith are very ordinary names...how were you able to identify this Sarah, as your Sarah Brown?
I am not questioning the accuracy, but I wonder if you have additional information about the Brown daughters?
This marriage, 1895, is the next event to find for this family, after b. Jessie 1884, so would be interesting to see how parents are noted, also names of witnesses...do you have this 1895 marriage certificate?
post #1 "...had 6 children(3 died as babies"
reply #3
William Henrik 1875, William Walter 1876, Sarah E 1878, Peter 1881, Charlotte 1882 and Jessie 1884.
These are the three deaths -
19143/1881 BROWN Peter William/Sarah INVERELL
21188/1875 BROWN William Henrik William/Sarah WELLINGROVE
13254/1876 BROWN William Walter William/Sarah INVERELL
Reply #4
".....Charlotte was married in Inglewood in 1908 but started having her children in Inglewood in 1897.
....... Sarah Elizabeth m.1895 Lithgow NSW
....Jessie m.1908 in QLD, not sure where.
Reply #19
1908/C2988 KHAN Adalat m. BROWN Jessie 16 Dec 1908
1910/C13118 Ethel Martha KHAN b. 18 March 1905 Adalat Jessie Brown
1910/C13119 Galarm Gelarlarny KHAN b. 9 Nov 1907 Adalat Jessie Brown
1910/C13119 Golarm Gelarlarny KHAN Adalat Jessie Brown
1910/C13034 Boguin-Noor Madge KHAN b. 19 Oct 1910 Adalat Jessie Brown
2959 Charlotte Agnes BROWN m. Charles Mahomed DEEN 2 Nov 1908
(this from Ancestry, not found QLD BDM Index)
1908/C12331 DEEN, Elam Charles Mahomed Charlotte Agnes Brown b. 19 Aug 1908
1909/C2918 DEEN, Ommie Charles Mahomed Charlotte Agnes Brown b. 16 Mar 1900
1909/C2919 DEEN, Marm Charles Mahomed Charlotte Agnes Brown b. 1 Nov 1902
1909/C2920 DEEN, Cumimnure Doret Charles Mahomed Charlotte Agnes Brown 14 Nov 1904
1909/C2920 DEEN, Cumimnure Doret Charles Mahomed Charlotte Agnes
1909/C2921 DEEN, Bibbie Jane Charles Mahomed Charlotte Agnes Brown 4 Dec 1906
1909/C12371 DEEN, Robert Charles Mahomed Charlotte Agnes Brown 18 Apr 1897
1910/C13273 DEEN,Charles Futtah Charles Mahommed Charlotte Agnes Brown b. 23 Aug 1910
1910/C13273 DEEN, Charles Futtah Charles Mahommed Charlotte Agnes
Elam b. Aug 1908, Charles and Charlotte m. Nov 1909
In 1909 they register births of several children, including oldest, Robert b. 1897.
He is only one without Indian name, so possibly not child of Charles?.
Adalat KHAN and Jessie BROWN m. Dec 1908.
Birth of Madge 1910 is registered at/after 14 Oct 1910, then in same year, births of older children registered retrospectively, going by reg. numbers.
Seems to be a pattern here....children born and not registered at the time, marriage several years later...what happened 1908 to cause both couples to get a bit organised?
Charlotte is 15yrs when Robert is b. 1897. I wonder who she is living with?
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Wow you have all been so busy. Sorry I have not been back since the weekend, but with work and children, things tend to get a little busy. Just thought I'd post a quick reply to say I'm still here and am going to go through all the fantastic info you've given and get back to you with any other info/cert I have.
This side of the family is very frustrating, with unable to find William and Sarahs death, I also have not been able to find their daughter Charlotte, her husband Charles Deens (my ggg grandfathers) death (but that's another story and one I've already posted on here before)
So the death of Sarah in 1907 suggested by Muss, this definitely looks like her doesn't it. Even though there may not be a record on BDM??
And yes Neil Todd, Eliza was a very naughty girl getting into lots of trouble with the law!!
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Hi
Maybe the death of Sarah, was the reason her daughters married
Muss
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Maybe that could be a reason Muss. Very strange both girls Charlotte and
her sister Jessie registered children well after they were born and married in the same year.
The only other thing apart from William and Sarahs marriage cert and Charlotte Browns birth certificate is Naturalisation record from 1875 for William Brown. I ordered it from State Records NSW and it only arrived just this week.
It is the "List of Aliens to whom Certificates of Naturalisation have been issued"
It has William Brown Native of State Island New York, Age: 31 Ship by which arrived "Lochiel" Year of arrival 1862 Present place of residence Glen Innes.
I have been thinking if William arrived in 1862 and didn't marry Sarah Byron until 1873, he must have been married before. Also I'm sure the ship he arrived on would have arrived probably in Sydney??
But as William Brown is a fairly common name, it might be hard to trace.
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I don't have the marriage cert of Jessie Brown so maybe ordering the marriage certificate of William and Sarahs daughter Jessie in 1895, may give me some further info.
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Hi all not sure how late to the party I am but I've stumbled across this while trying to search my family history
My great grandmother was Ethel Martha Saunders (born Khan) who has been mentioned in this thread as from what i can see her parents were William and sarah from inverall? Does this sound right, any more information anyone can share about this?
If it helps anyone else, ethal and William had a son call Hugh Saunders (my grandfather) and I know he had 10+ brothers and sisters
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Hi
Looks like Ethel’s mother was Jessie Ann Brown, whose sister was Charlotte Agnes Brown - my great great grandmother . Their parents were William Brown And Sarah Byron. I’ve researched a bit of this family if you need to know anything.
Mel