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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: california dreamin on Tuesday 23 April 13 16:40 BST (UK)
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Hi all
I'll try and keep this very brief because it is quite complicated. A fellow researcher and I are trying to unravel a family tree for the Skinner family. You will find many, many family trees for them on Ancestry (most incorrect). Looking at the family starting from Henry Skinner (b.1792 Brightling, Sussex) he allegedly married Mary Kemp* and had 9 children. Many of whom left England for Australia at various times. We have parish records for their births, all in England, which do give a mother's name but only 'Mary' no maiden name. Also we have immigration ship manifest information and for some definite death details. However, we have never been able to find a marriage for Henry & Mary KEMP. New research seem to indicate that Henry was married to a Mary BISHOP whom he had his first four children with. What we would like to do is find out who is the mother for the remainder -Mary Bishop or Kemp.
We feel our best way forward would be to look at the Australian records. For example death certificates or cemetery records or any other Austrialian records that anyone could suggest that would name parents. Also how to obtain these things!
Names we are looking for are as follows:
Henry Skinner (b.1814 Ospringe, Kent) immigrated to Australia. A drifter and wanderer who ended his days with his brother Tom in Yankallia, S. Australia. Not sure of immigration date my notes say 1862 but I have other details that now contradict that.
Eleanor Catherine (Skinner) Rummery (b.1819 Brightling, Sussex) lived in Windsor NSW married to Richard. Information found in immigration record indicates her mother is Mary Bishop. Immigrated 1839
Thomas Skinner (b. 1821 Brightling, Sussex) Immigrated to Yankallia, S. Australia in 1854
George Skinner (b1824 Brightling, Sussex) Immigrated to Rouse Hill, NSW 1848. His dc information indicates his mother was Mary Kemp
James Skinner (b. 1826 Brightling, Sussex) Joined Henry, Eleanor & George in Parramatta in 1849
Last two Maria Frances and John remained in the UK. One other sibling Mary Ann went to America
So to clarify we wish to confirm the Mother of the names above. We have lots of other information all ready.
Thanks very much for any help :)
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Death certificate information is only as good as the informant gives therefore errors can be made.
Have you got a marriage for George? His marriage certificate might be more reliable.
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From the NSW free bmd index
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search?event=births
DEATH
6996/1881 RUMMERY ELLEN parents WILLIAM & MARY J at GLEN INNES.
This indexing does not give mothers surname, but the certificate will if it was known to the informant . The father's name is incorrect, but she is the most likely ELLEN/ELEANOR RUMMERY listed in NSW. It is not a common name.
A less expensive alternative to ordering a copy of the original certificate is through a Transcription Agent .
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToTraceYouFamTree.htm#TranscriptionAgent
Here is a link to what you may find on
Australian certificates-
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
The RUMMERY's had a number of children in NSW and you will be able to see those registered using the search link above.
Sue
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Thanks both for your guidance.
I am unclear what information I would find in any BMD cert from Aus. so will have a look on the sites you mentioned. Eleanor (or Ellen) Rummery is buried at Rouse Hill Cemetery. I understand she had 11 children but I have not followed this up! The death entry posted for Eleanor does not look correct especially the parents. She died in Windsor 1879
Of the names given only George was married in Australia. He married in Dural, NSW to Ann Moulds in 1853. Thomas & Eleanor married prior to leaving England. I am uncertain if Henry or James married at all.
Thanks again will have a look tomorrow!
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Headstone for Rummery's
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=3256736
NBSurname on headstone is spelt with one M and not 2
Death index
9623/1879 RUMERY ELANOR C HENRY UNKNOWN WINDSOR
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Hi,
Just a snippet from an 1895 newspaper re the Probate for George Skinner late of Rouse Hill.
Under 'Legal Notices'
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14021379?searchTerm=
Note that the Executor is John RUMERY (in the Will as RUMMERY)
Gerry
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Death notice for Elanor
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13444897?searchTerm=%22rummery%22&searchLimits=exactPhrase=rummery
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This lot have some pretty impressive headstones.
George Skinner's headstone
http://www.hawkesbury.net.au/cemetery/rouse_hill/rhac106.html
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Giblet's index finding is clearly the right person ;D
The certificate will not help with mother's name :(
Sue
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I wonder if George's 1853 marriage cert. have mother's maiden name on it. I have some certificates from around that era and they are pretty lousy with info ::)
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I wonder if George's 1853 marriage cert. have mother's maiden name on it. I have some certificates from around that era and they are pretty lousy with info ::)
Yes, and sometimes the people marrying did not even know it anyway!
Probably worth try just the same. The witnesses to the marriage may be of interest too.
Sue
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You will find a list here of what info is on certificates - note that each state is different, and also varies depending on the time period.
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
Do you have any other mention of the BISHOP name other than Ellen/Eleanor's immigration record? She only names her mother, so the assumption might be that her father was deceased.
I believe I can see the whole family in 1841 at Burwash, including Henry, so it seems extremely odd that she didn't name her father on the immigration record.
Debra :)
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Thank you all for your replies and links! I do have quite a few photos of the various graves thanks to the kindness of other researchers. In the intervening years since I have had the photos so much has been put on line. :) Yes the graves are well impressive! Thanks once again.
So according the the jaunay site really it would be a waste trying to get the dc for Henry and Tom who we know died in S. Australia. But for George, Eleanor & James who died Riverstone, Rouse Hill, Parramatta area it would be worth while. I do have a really blurry copy of George's cert I can just about make out parents Henry Skinner and Mary Kemp. I think where it says date or place of marriage it says 'unknown'. So where can I buy these? Sorry being a bit thick here. Anyway just bit the bullet and bought certs for George, Ellen and James. Did not like price. Is there a similar website for S. Australian deaths? Adelaide and Yankallia area? Ta
Dundee: Do you have any other mention of the BISHOP name other than Ellen/Eleanor's immigration record? She only names her mother, so the assumption might be that her father was deceased. Yes I know! That is part of the dilemma. I cannot understand why she does not name her father because No he is not dead! We do have Eleanor's baptism entry but annoyingly it only states parents as Henry and Mary. In fact this is the problem with the whole family so we need to verify which Mary. My theory is that children Henry, Mary Ann, Eleanor and Thomas belong to Mary Bishop. Then Mary Bishop dies or perhaps he abandons them and takes up with Mary Kemp (does he marry her?) and then goes on to have George, James, Maria, John and an unnamed child. Henry (the father) goes on to marry again (!) to a Sarah Mann in 1843. They have no children. But I think he leaves her because they can be found living separately in the 1861 census Henry with his son John in Kent. He says he's a widower. Mary with a married daughter in Sussex.
I believe I can see the whole family in 1841 at Burwash, including Henry, so it seems extremely odd that she didn't name her father on the immigration record. Yes exactly that is them. But who is the Mary? Mary Kemp or Mary Bishop?
So any place where we might find the Mother's maiden name is what we are desperate for.
Thanks all
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Just a thought ;D
I dont have any info on Richard Rumery but could Bishop be his mother's name and not Eleanor's mothers maiden name :-\
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here is a site for free transcriptions of Adelaide deaths etc.
http://www.gravesecrets.net/adelaide-bdm-free-transcriptions.html
did you know that you can get transcriptions of NSW certs which are cheaper and e-mailed to you
(on NSW BDM site)
cheers,
Ros
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Ros that website is only for deaths registered in the Adelaide [Ade] district but not Yankalilla [Yan].
Death
SKINNER Henry
20 Jun 1887 73 years Status not recorded No relative noted
Residence Adelaide Death Place Adelaide Ade Symbol S 164/162
S. Supplementary Information. Additional unusual information included such as:
· Previous Residence Listed.
· Length of Residence in Colony Stated.
· Deceased Child's Father is Deceased.
· Deceased Maiden Name is Listed.
· Junior/Senior of Deceased is listed.
· Younger Son
· Prison
· State Child.
· Guardian Named.
· Adelaide Destitute or Lunatic Asylum listed ad Residence or Death Place.
· Unusual Death or amount of information on circumstances of Death.
· Sister of Church if known as - religious name stated.
· Fuller details available re deaths at sea - longitude and latitude.
· Final names reduced to initials due to space problems
· Remarriage on post 1906 registrations unusual enough to warrant this.
Henry is interred at West Terrace Cemetery, Adelaide and the database for the cemetery has the date of death instead of the date of interment.
SKINNER Henry 73 years
Date of Death 21 June 1887 [Date of burial]
Last abode Adelaide
Location Unknown. I would suggest he may have been buried in in common ground.
Death
SKINNER Thomas
2 Apr 1902 80 years Status not recorded No relative recorded
Residence Yankalilla Death Place Yankalilla Yan 285/225
The only information you will find on these death certificates, if known to the informant.....
Date of Death
Name
Sex
Age
Occupation
Usual Residence
Cause of Death
Place of Death
Informant
Transcriptions of certificates is available in SA. I did this post some time ago and SAGHS have increased their fee to $22 for non members.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,280572.msg1367795.html#msg1367795
Thomas's MI at Yankalilla
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=4516631
Cheers
Cando :)
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Hi again everyone
Thanks for your input.
giblet- Nice thought - but no for that one
rosbal- No I did not know about the NSW BMD site! :( That would have been better. Never mind. Added:Yes I did :( have just read more thorougly about a transcription agent, which was suggested to me earlier. Went on that site to order certs More haste less speed!
cando - Thanks I will have a look at the site you mention. Yes, know about the cemetery at Yank
Of Henry- my fellow researcher has contacted the cemetery already. Reply as follows:
Henry Skinner was a resident of the Destitute Asylum in Adelaide when he died. His funeral was paid for by the state. His burial site was in an area in the south east corner of the cemetery where a workshop/maintenance facility was built in the 1970’s. There was not a memorial to him on the site.
This is why I am loathed to buy a certificate for him. The information is only as good as the informant provides. So if he was in an asylum I wouldn't expect them to know much about him. Do you know if it would be hard to get info from the Destitute Asylum in Adelaide? What information would be contained in the records? My little niggle here is that a family letter says that Henry died when at his brother Tom's house. And we know Tom lived in Yankallia, unless the writer of the letter was not being truthful!
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Wouldn't bother purchasing Henry's cert. Well now you know the Symbol S refers to his death in the destitute asylum.
You may find these links helpful. I never have time to visit SLSA or SA Records when in Adelaide so can't help you.
http://www.findandconnect.gov.au/sa/biogs/SE00547b.htm
http://www.archives.sa.gov.au/readingroom/aids/asylumcard.html?friendly=print
Cando
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Hi
Many thanks for those links they look really useful.
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You may have to put a post on the Sussex Board, but. I have found a marriage for a Henry Skinner in Billingshurst Sussex in 1814. Unfortunatly for me to go any further I would need to buy credits. So cannot see who he married Bishop/Kemp
But someone may have access to the Parish records for that area and time in Sussex?
Neil ;)
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https://familysearch.org/
has two marriages
14 Jan 1814 Crawley,Sussex to Sarah Backshall
20 Oct 1814 Billinghurst,Sussex to Ann Freeman
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Hello,
Thank you both for looking and your suggestions. We are however looking for a MARY so neither of the 1814 marriages for Henry are mine. We do have a marriage in 1814 for Henry to a Mary Bishop in Kent plus the baptism details for their first two children which do coincide with information we have in a family bible. However, what we do not have is a marriage for a Mary Kemp to prove or disprove a connection. Did Mary Bishop die or not? Did he marry a Mary Kemp sometime between 1814 - 1843 (date of his marriage to Sarah his 'second' wife). Who's the mother of all of his children? One of the Mary's - both of the Mary's? Which Mary? ???
Henry's marriage however has nothing to do with Australia - I have posted here because four of his children immigrated here and I was hoping somewhere there may be documentation that would name their mother.
I do also have a post running on the Sussex boards.
Many thanks again.
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There are no marriage details that match your Henry in the Parish records up to 1837 when the civil records took over.
I understand your reasons for the australia post.
Could you tell us where the two early children were baptised?
Neil
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Hi Neil
Yes, they were baptised in Ospringe, Kent. The rest of his children were baptised in Brightling, Sussex.
Thanks
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Hello!
I am the researcher that california dreamin mentioned in earlier posts.
Henry Skinner married Mary Ann Bishop 11 Apr 1814 in Ospringe, Kent.
Children:
1. Henry Skinner: born 20 Jul 1814 (family bible) christened 25 Jul 1814 Ospringe (parish register)
2. Mary Anne: born 24 May 1816 (family bible) christened 6 Jun 1816 Ospringe (parish regsiter)
3. Eleanor Catherine: born 4 Mar 1819 (family bible & passenger record) chr. 2 May 1819 Brightling
Note: Eleanor's immigration record gave her mother as Mary Bishopp.
5. George Skinner-George had a death record that his informant said his mother was a Mary Kemp.
Also, Mary Anne born in 1816, had a Mary Kemp sign her marriage record to Matthew Harmer in 1832. I am a ggg grandaughter of Mary Ann and Matthew.
The other six children we have found no records yet mentiong their mother's maiden name.
Heather