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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: tillypeg on Wednesday 24 April 13 10:22 BST (UK)
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My 2xgt grandfather Warren Wells drowned on the 14 November 1880 off the coast of Holland – somewhere near Goeree – and a newspaper article says that he was interred at Helvoet. How can I find out if there is a headstone or a memorial?
It seems that 5 others from the ship, a brig called “Ami” sailing from Whitby, also drowned. The article doesn’t say if all the bodies were recovered. The other seamen were William Harwood (mate), Thomas Mackins (cook), Edward Dunn 16, James Avis 16 and Alfred Asprey 17 (apprentices).
Also, the other 5 seamen appear in the “Register of Wages & Effects of Deceased Seamen” (BT153) but Warren Wells doesn’t – why would this be when the article states that he was the Captain and was identified by his engraved gold ring. I have his details from the Merchant Navy records, his Mate's Certificate of Service, his death cert from the GRO Marine Deaths Indices and 4 newspaper articles but these final pieces are missing.
Any help at all in identifying the whereabouts of the churchyard/cemetery in Helvoet etc would be greatly appreciated by a non-Dutch-speaking RootsChatter.
Tillypeg
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http://www.dutch-cemeteries.com/contact.asp
This is a Dutch cemeteries site. The cemetery of Hellevoetsluis is also on it. I can’t find your 2xgt grandfather .
You can send them an email, maybe they can help you.
first box : name
2e box : your e-mail address
3e box : topic
4e box : your message
click on the box : Verstuur (= submit)
Good luck
Leen
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Hi Leen,
Many thanks for replying to my post. The website is very interesting. I have sent an email in the hope that they can help me.
Regards,
Tillypeg
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It is a long time ago and very uncertain whether the grave is still there. If you don’t get an answer, let it know. There is someone on Geneanet with different images of tombstones from the old cemetery of Hellevoetsluis. Perhaps he can help.
Leen
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Thanks Leen, I will keep you updated.
Tillypeg
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Tillypeg,
I did some research as well.
Reading the suggestions by others, why not trying the "streekarchief"- districtarchive ?
info@streekarchiefvpr.nl
send them a copy of the paper you mentioned, it certainly will help !!
Good luck,
elcas
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Many thanks elcas for your suggestion, I will certainly try that.
Tillypeg
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Hello Tillypeg,
I did some research to.....
The (English) brig we are talking about here was named "Amy of Whitby", it was transporting coal from Newcastle to Vlaardingen.
It sunk on the 14Th of November 1880 at approximately 11 am on the Hinder at the Bokkengat (you can google this). The Bokkengat was situated a little bit to the north of Goeree Overflakkee, one of the islands of the province of Zeeland.
Captain Klop, captain of the tugboat "The Rotterdam", who was on his way to a stranded boat "The Benvenuti", tried everything to rescue the crew of the "Amy of Whitby" but in vane. He watched a horrific spectacle of seeing them all die!
One of the crew members was brought ashore at Hellevoetssluis. I don't know who. If they found the others I don't know eather or what happened to them.
Because the "Amy" sunk on a very busy sea route it had to be removed.
For the first time they did this with ground torpedo's, it was done by 1st Luit. De Fremery from the Torpedo Regiment at Brielle. They were very curious what a torpedo would do to a sunken ship filled with coal.
This was done after 15Th of December 1880. Before that time they stationed another ship besides the "Amy" for safety reasons.
I will try to get more information, if possible, what happened to the crew of the "Amy of Whitby".
Greetings Dauro.
p.s. please look in your p.m.
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Hi Dauro,
Many thanks for responding to my query about Warren Wells. I am very interested in the information you have found, thank you so much. It must have been a dreadful spectacle for Captain Klop to witness.
Warren would have been 56 years old at death, though the death certificate I have acquired does not state his age.
I assume that as Warren was identified by his engraved gold ring, his body must have been brought ashore.
Hoping you can find anything about his burial.
Tillypeg
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Hi Tillypeg,
I think this is Warren Wells.
We know the ship went down at 11.00 am. He was reported at Hellevoetsluis being dead three hours later at 1 o'clock in the afternoon.
A translation was sent to your email.
Dauro...
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Tillypeg,
Warren was the only one who was picked up from the sea!
He was taken on board by a ship. Liebau and Meuldijk were probably part of the crew of that ship.
Warren was alive but sadly died on the way to Hellevoetsluis!
Dauro...
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Dauro,
You have discovered some amazing articles and documents about Warren Wells, I am very grateful for your interest in my query and for sending everything to me over the last couple of days (and nights!)
It is very sad to learn that Warren probably died on board the rescue ship - so close to surviving...
With much appreciation for all your efforts,
Tillypeg
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Hello Tillypeg
I was researching Warren Wells and came across your post. He was my 2xgreat grandfather as well which makes us third cousins. His daughter Kate (or Catherine or Katherine) married Thomas Hawxwell in Whitby and one of their daughters, Mary Elizabeth (known as Lizzie) married my grandfather John Newby in Whitby in 1903. They moved to Middlesbrough soon after, although she did move back to Whitby at some point before returning to Middlesbrough.
Glad to have found you online
Michael
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Welcome to RootsChat, Michael. I hope you found this thread interesting. I was very grateful to all the help I received from Dauro. He supplied me with some documents sourced in Holland recording what actually happened to our 2 x great grandfather Warren Wells.
I have quite a few notes about all the Hauxwells though probably nothing you haven't already found online. I believe John & Lizzie Newby had 8 children, is that correct? William Edward seems to have been born very shortly after their wedding.....the last child being born in 1920. Sadly they lost 3 sons at a very young age.
I haven't found a positive date for the death of John Newby. The 1911 census entry for Lizzie is quite ambiguous – she wrote Wife but it was crossed through and Head written, with Widow in the “Particulars as to Marriage” column in a different hand. I believe Lizzie died in 1961? A contact through Genes Reunited a number of years ago gave me the date of 12 January at Stockton.
If you respond to my post here two more times, then I can send you a Personal Message through RootsChat (you need to have 3 posts before a PM can be sent or received) and I can tell you my connection with the Wells family.
Tillypeg
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My 2xgt grandfather Warren Wells drowned on the 14 November 1880 off the coast of Holland – somewhere near Goeree – and a newspaper article says that he was interred at Helvoet. How can I find out if there is a headstone or a memorial? ....
Also, the other 5 seamen appear in the “Register of Wages & Effects of Deceased Seamen” (BT153) but Warren Wells doesn’t – why would this be when the article states that he was the Captain and was identified by his engraved gold ring.
Hello Tillypeg,
Because he was a Master, not a Seaman, that's why.
I did look for you in one other place, BT 124, where his death might have been recorded, but no joy.
Cheers,
Westoe
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Warren would have been 56 years old at death, though the death certificate I have acquired does not state his age.
Hello again, Tillypeg,
The death occurred in 1880 and you have him as 56 years old. Does that mean that the Warren Wells born Lewes, 1826, certificate # 79,465 is your man? If so, have you seen the two records for him in TNA file BT 124 which is free online?
Here is the link:
http://www.crewlist.org.uk/people/BT124masters?target=wells&SearchType=Exact&initial=warren&dob=&submit=search (http://www.crewlist.org.uk/people/BT124masters?target=wells&SearchType=Exact&initial=warren&dob=&submit=search)
Cheers,
Westoe
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Westoe - many thanks for that link, I haven't seen that before although I do have the Mate's Certificate of Service. Also, from BT113/8 the Register Ticket No. 14060 stating born 4 Aug 1824 & setting out his voyages. Also from BT114/21 Merchant Seamen which merely lists his name & ticket number.
It's amazing what has turned up online over the last few years. I once paid a sum of money to a "researcher" and they found hardly anything!
The snipped image attached is one I also have, plus another similar one which states of Church St, Whitby (from FindMyPast).
Thanks for showing an interest, Westoe.
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Hi tillypeg
Sorry about my very slow response. I have been unwell, but after surgery last month I feel much better. Yes, this thread is very interesting – I knew our 2 x great grandfather Warren was drowned but did not know the details. Dauro certainly filled those in for us. About my grandparents John and Lizzie, so far I have them with at least 10 children, 5 boys and 5 girls, with the possibility of one more boy. In fact, I had missed William Edward, so thank you for that. Four girls, the oldest and the three youngest, and only one boy (my father John Randle) survived to adulthood. The 1911 census entry for my Gran is very strange – she was certainly not a widow and had 6 children with John after that date. In the 1911 census, John was living in Davison Street Middlesbrough with Gran’s cousins: George and Hannah Raistrick (nee Wells), together with Kate and William Wells. She must have known that, so why she said she was a widow is a mystery.
Grandfather John died 8 Jan 1937 in Middlesbrough. Gran lived two doors from us in a terraced house for all my childhood. Yes, she died 12 January 1961 in Norton actually, but that will be recorded as part of Stockton.
Michael
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Hello again Michael,
Sorry to hear that you have been unwell, hope you are now on the road to recovery.
Thanks for confirming your grandfather's death in 1937. I have a note of his burial on the 12th January aged 56 in Linthorpe Cemetery. Thank you also for pointing me in the right direction for the 1911 entry. The image on Find My Past has been transcribed as Mewby age 20 so no wonder I didn't find him! I have suggested a suitable correction to FindMyPast.
Tillypeg
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Hello, Tillypeg
Yes, there are lots of problems with transcriptions with Mewby and Nuby being the most common. Also, as you will know, Gran’s maiden name was Hawxwell which is usually transcribed as Hauxwell but I have seen Housewell.
Gran is buried next to Grandad John Newby in Linthorpe Cemetery, alongside two of their grandsons, John Noel Newby (my oldest brother known as Noel, died January 1941, aged 4) and Ian Murray (son of my aunt Kathleen, died January 1947, less than a year old). Noel died before I was born, but I do remember his name being mentioned within the family when I was young and going to the grave with my Mam and Gran. I also remember Gran’s burial on a bitterly cold January morning. I have photos of the grave taken by my older brother Malcolm about 10 years ago, but at the moment they are all too large to attach even when converted to pdf files. I will try to crop them to make them smaller and then post them. Earlier this year we went to visit the grave and although we knew roughly where it was, it seems to have disappeared.
Have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Michael
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Hi Mick,
Thanks for all this info about the burials. I have sent you a Personal Message as you have now done 3 posts, so you should be able to send & receive PMs now.
Best wishes to you & your family.
Tillypeg